is it true that there are fewer male dancers than female ones

[luh]

hi
just out of curiousity, i was wondering if it's true, that there are more female dancers than male ones?
please vote on it!
luh
EDIT: i forgot: everyone should be able to vote on this ;)
EDIT2: pygmalion wanted to have a "not sure yet" option - sorry, - i can't edit the poll :?

Too bad that there have just 54 people voted yet.
luh

[Ron Obvious]

hi
just out of curiousity, i was wondering if it's true, that there are more female dancers than male ones.
please vote on it!
luh
EDIT: i forgot: everyone should be able to vote on this ;)

It seems to me that at least in Helsinki there are more male dancers. Or at least there is always lack of female dancers. Maybe it's because when women don't find a male leader they start dancing with each other. Such behaviour should be forbidden ;-)

Furthermore, followers can dance with leaders of almost any level, wheras it is usually required that the leader be more advanced. Well, this is my opinion, feel free to disagree.

[ArtsySalsera]

hi
just out of curiousity, i was wondering if it's true, that there are more female dancers than male ones.
please vote on it!
luh
EDIT: i forgot: everyone should be able to vote on this ;)
Yes. Which is why most men wait to be asked now in my neck of the woods. (The opinion of myself and other salseras)

[Stiletto One]

Man, I wish life was that easy here. :? (Charlotte, North Carolina.)

At our socials, men are usually outnumbered by about 20%.

I don't know what the scene is in the Raleigh/Chapel Hill/Durham area, though—college territory, maybe the ratio's a bit less skewed?

[DanceMentor]

I find especially more male dancers in Salsa, but a few more ladies in Ballroom, and about even in Swing. That is my observation here in Atlanta.

[luh]

@Ron Obvious
i'm not happy about followers dancing with each other either. And afterwards they tell us we don't ask them for a dance. (though - those who complain are mainly beginners, the advanced ones often ask too)
oh, and one fun thing happens here twice or three times during an event. There are 3 or 4 men, who don't mind dancing with other men. It's holarious. (btw, they are not gay, - all guys with girlfriend or wife). Makes beginners followers always angry, advanced ones don't care because they know that they'll get a dance too. ;)
@ArtsySalsera
is that a good or bad thing for you?
@stiletto One
outch, that sounds pretty bad. Don't you want to come over here? here it's pretty even.
@DanceMentor
that's interesting. do you have also an explanation for that?

in our (swing)scene, there are always enough leaders and followers, but in the leader section there are probably 30 % female leaders. (though - they also dance follower)
luh

[ArtsySalsera]

@ArtsySalsera
is that a good or bad thing for you?
Myself and other salseras were talking about this just last night.
No, it's not a good thing. We don't get it as we are good dancers.

[alemana]

here in NYC we are not in scarcity mode so i don't get the distress over leaders dancing with leaders and followers with followers.

*shrug*

i wish i had the patience to really learn how to lead, so that i could dance more with the people i really want to dance with - my female friends.

[tacad]

i wish i had the patience to really learn how to lead, so that i could dance more with the people i really want to dance with - my female friends.

I used to think there was a huge art to leading. But really if you just get your body moving first (which is proper technique anyway) , keep your frame still, that should be most of what you need. I'm really trying to work on that right now. It's amazing. One follow that I often waltz with just beamed when I did this for the first time. Even on Latin dances the principle should be the same but of course with the separations and dancing further apart it's different than waltz or foxtrot. The weird thing is keeping my arms still even if the follow is moving around with respect to my still frame because I want to compensate for them. But they seem to find their relative position and seem happier with the dance if I just maintain my frame.

[alemana]

eh, i don't think it's a 'huge art.' just more than i have the patience for. considering i'm already doing so much dancing, i don't want to cut into that time for this.

anyway, don't want to hijack this thread. carry on.

[chandra]

there are more female dancers in my town than males...

actually at recent socials there has been 1 guy, and 7 girls. That guy is in heaven, and all the gals know how to lead.

the best is when a girl leads, and a guy follows, or a guy and guy, but switching... IMO

[lynn]

Of all the classes I've taken (AT, salsa, ballroom), there are always more followers than leaders. The ratio is probably 1:1.5 or 1:2.

[cocodrilo]

In the salsa scene in Japan, there are far fewer male dancers. My friend is currently in a class with 10 women! How the heck do they learn how to follow? At the clubs/salsa parties I go to maybe the ratio is 1:10 or even greater.

[tacad]

eh, i don't think it's a 'huge art.' just more than i have the patience for. considering i'm already doing so much dancing, i don't want to cut into that time for this.

anyway, don't want to hijack this thread. carry on.
Cool. 8)

[ArtsySalsera]

here in NYC we are not in scarcity mode so i don't get the distress over leaders dancing with leaders and followers with followers.

*shrug*

i wish i had the patience to really learn how to lead, so that i could dance more with the people i really want to dance with - my female friends. Yeah, I know what you mean. In my case it's I wish I had the extra time to learn but I'm already focusing on mambo styling right now. I think learning how to lead would certainly keep me dancing as much as I want to on any given night.

I've even had a girlfriend that wanted to dance so bad one night when a good song was played, she asked me did I know how to lead but she knows very well that I don't know how.
The convo went like this:
"You can lead right?"
"No, I can't."
"Really? Yes you can."
"No, Really I can't".http://www.online-thecatsmeow.com/images/Emoticons6/lol2.gif

We (salseras) see many men that know how to dance just standing around and we don't know what they're waiting for. http://www.online-thecatsmeow.com/images/Emoticons/shrug.gif
It's sad sometimes. http://www.online-thecatsmeow.com/images/Emoticons/thud.gif http://www.online-thecatsmeow.com/images/Emoticons6/lol2.gifhttp://www.online-thecatsmeow.com/images/Emoticons6/lol2.gifhttp://www.online-thecatsmeow.com/images/Emoticons6/lol2.gif

[Spitfire]

I think that is often the case. I've heard women lament over there not being enough men present at dances.

[lujan]

I find there are allways more women at scheduled dance nights, but often at the pub on a sunday, there is 4-5 men wanting to dance and maybe 2 girls turn up.

(note, my local pub is an Irish bar, that encourages dancing, and holds classes there on a weekly basis, and on sundays has a music session).

[Indiana_Jay]

My wife and I just started with ballroom lessons. We've been to two group lessons, but no dances. At both group lessons, there were more men than women.

[cocodrilo]

My wife and I just started with ballroom lessons. We've been to two group lessons, but no dances. At both group lessons, there were more men than women.
Welcome to the forums! Good luck with the lessons! At least you have a partner! 8)

[luh]

My wife and I just started with ballroom lessons. We've been to two group lessons, but no dances. At both group lessons, there were more men than women.

welcome to df:D
at ArtsySalsera:
We (salseras) see many men that know how to dance just standing around and we don't know what they're waiting for.


how about just asking them for a dance instead of waiting, that they ask you?

at chandra:
the best is when a girl leads, and a guy follows, or a guy and guy, but switching... IMO
true. That is really fun. I am such a bad follower, still pretty fun.:D

luh

[chandra]

IM sorry, this is really of topic, but I LOVE the smilie selection on that post!!!

8)

[luh]

come on, there are more than 25 people in this forum.
luh

[etchuck]

Man, I wish life was that easy here. :? (Charlotte, North Carolina.)

At our socials, men are usually outnumbered by about 20%.

I don't know what the scene is in the Raleigh/Chapel Hill/Durham area, though—college territory, maybe the ratio's a bit less skewed?

Sorry... I didn't realized someone from this area has posted! Welcome.

Depends on the dance, but for the most part it's pretty skewed with more women than men showing up. Salsa here tends to be closer to 50-50, and in some cases, more men.

So don't be that afraid to take a drive over. Or maybe set up an exchange. :)

[tacad]

come on, there are more than 25 people in this forum.
luh
But do they post much? I don't really know. :wink:

[jxntwinkletoes]

In Jackson Mississippi, I think the women outnumber the men across the board in swing, cw, ballroom. And a good percentage of the men who dance are married and dance mostly with their wives, rarely asking other women to dance with them. Which may be a good subject for a separate post in itself: why is that the case, why don't they ask other ladies to dance? Is it because they really don't care for dancing and are doing it just to please their wife? or because the wife doesn't want them to?
So if you are a male dancer move to Jackson MS and you will be very popular, you will dance as much as you want!

[luh]

come on, there are more than 25 people in this forum.
luh
But do they post much? I don't really know. :wink:

well, more than 28 are posting definetely in this forum :D
luh

[ArtsySalsera]

at ArtsySalsera:
We (salseras) see many men that know how to dance just standing around and we don't know what they're waiting for.


how about just asking them for a dance instead of waiting, that they ask you? As I stated before, we salseras ARE the ones that do the asking. We do that 90% of the time. Also I tap them on the shoulders just before leaving the dance floor. It would be nice to be asked more.

and before you say:

well maybe you just don't look right -- we've been told we are attractive
well maybe you can't dance salsa well -- some of us have performed or have been asked to perform
well maybe they're intimidated -- I doubt it
well maybe they........that's ok....no need to try and figure it out...I'm sure there's a different reason for each person. I've given up speculating on it. :wink:

[Larinda McRaven]

And a good percentage of the men who dance are married and dance mostly with their wives, rarely asking other women to dance with them. Which may be a good subject for a separate post in itself: why is that the case, why don't they ask other ladies to dance? Is it because they really don't care for dancing and are doing it just to please their wife? or because the wife doesn't want them to?


I would bet it is because they enjoy dancing. And they enjoy their wives. So I assume they really enjoy dancing with their wives.
.
And therefore they really "need or want" for anything else.

[lujan]

And a good percentage of the men who dance are married and dance mostly with their wives, rarely asking other women to dance with them. Which may be a good subject for a separate post in itself: why is that the case, why don't they ask other ladies to dance? Is it because they really don't care for dancing and are doing it just to please their wife? or because the wife doesn't want them to?


I would bet it is because they enjoy dancing. And they enjoy their wives. So I assume they really enjoy dancing with their wives.
.
And therefore they really "need or want" for anything else.

I don't know how it is in other dance styles/groups, but I was allways taught that it is the height of rudeness to only dance with one person all night. I allways split my nights, 30% dancing with people I know well. 30% dancing with people I don't know at all, 30% dancing with new dancers, who need 'old hand' help. And I will allways save 1 dance for the girl I am dating atm.

We are usually pretty happy to get one dance together, as we are both 'in demand' to fill sets seperately, at the expectation of our teacher.

[tacad]

come on, there are more than 25 people in this forum.
luh
But do they post much? I don't really know. :wink:

well, more than 28 are posting definetely in this forum :D
luh
True enough.

[squirrel]

In the club I go to, it depends on the day, but usually there are more female dancers... :)

[newbie]

Two weeks ago I went to an A.T workshop, and left silently after 5 minutes as there were not enough followers.
Last week in the class there was one leader less and after 5 minutes the lone lady went to the teacher and complained bitterly that no "change partners!" had been yelled yet. So the teacher came to ME and I had to dance with
the lady.
Leaders are more numerous, but followers make more fuss.

[luh]

at ArtsySalsera:
We (salseras) see many men that know how to dance just standing around and we don't know what they're waiting for.


how about just asking them for a dance instead of waiting, that they ask you? As I stated before, we salseras ARE the ones that do the asking. We do that 90% of the time. Also I tap them on the shoulders just before leaving the dance floor. It would be nice to be asked more.

and before you say:

well maybe you just don't look right -- we've been told we are attractive

what do you think of me? I'd never dare to say sth like that.

well maybe you can't dance salsa well -- some of us have performed or have been asked to perform
well maybe they're intimidated -- I doubt it
well maybe they........that's ok....no need to try and figure it out...I'm sure there's a different reason for each person. I've given up speculating on it. :wink:

i guess you better ask your leaders :D i can't give you answers, and i won't guess. That's too complicate.
I just know that followers over here, don't ask men. if they ask a leader they go for a female leader.
that makes me kind of mad.
luh

[ArtsySalsera]

what do you think of me? I'd never dare to say sth like that.
....not accusing you of anything but believe me there are those who think like that. Sometimes when I write something I try to anticipate questions in advance not just from the person I'm writing to but from others. Someone asked me a question like that on another thread. Sorry, didn't mean to make it sound like it was for you.


well maybe you can't dance salsa well -- some of us have performed or have been asked to perform
well maybe they're intimidated -- I doubt it
well maybe they........that's ok....no need to try and figure it out...I'm sure there's a different reason for each person. I've given up speculating on it. :wink:i guess you better ask your leaders :D i can't give you answers, and i won't guess. That's too complicate.
I just know that followers over here, don't ask men. if they ask a leader they go for a female leader.
that makes me kind of mad.
luh Nahhhhhhhhh. I'm not looking for answers anymore, besides I'm not interested in interviewing each one individually. I was only replying to your original question. Hmmmm, they go for a female leader?
How interesting. I can only guess as to why.

[luh]

what do you think of me? I'd never dare to say sth like that.
....not accusing you of anything but believe me there are those who think like that. Sometimes when I write something I try to anticipate questions in advance not just from the person I'm writing to but from others. Someone asked me a question like that on another thread. Sorry, didn't mean to make it sound like it was for you.


fine :)


well maybe you can't dance salsa well -- some of us have performed or have been asked to perform
well maybe they're intimidated -- I doubt it
well maybe they........that's ok....no need to try and figure it out...I'm sure there's a different reason for each person. I've given up speculating on it. :wink:i guess you better ask your leaders :D i can't give you answers, and i won't guess. That's too complicate.
I just know that followers over here, don't ask men. if they ask a leader they go for a female leader.
that makes me kind of mad.
luh Nahhhhhhhhh. I'm not looking for answers anymore, besides I'm not interested in interviewing each one individually. I was only replying to your original question. Hmmmm, they go for a female leader?
How interesting. I can only guess as to why.

I'd be interested in your guess.
luh
P.S. come one guys vote vote vote. Like if it would go for an election. :D

[jxntwinkletoes]

I don't know how it is in other dance styles/groups, but I was allways taught that it is the height of rudeness to only dance with one person all night. I allways split my nights, 30% dancing with people I know well. 30% dancing with people I don't know at all, 30% dancing with new dancers, who need 'old hand' help. And I will allways save 1 dance for the girl I am dating atm.

We are usually pretty happy to get one dance together, as we are both 'in demand' to fill sets seperately, at the expectation of our teacher.
I think that is a great policy, and you are even more diplomatic that most people. If married guys love dancing with their wives that is fine, but variety is the spice of life, and they should at least try to spread it around and dance with others especially if their wife gets asked by someone else. I just haven't got the guts to ask a guy to dance that does this because I am afraid of him saying no, and/or making the wife upset somehow.

[lujan]

I don't know how it is in other dance styles/groups, but I was allways taught that it is the height of rudeness to only dance with one person all night. I allways split my nights, 30% dancing with people I know well. 30% dancing with people I don't know at all, 30% dancing with new dancers, who need 'old hand' help. And I will allways save 1 dance for the girl I am dating atm.

We are usually pretty happy to get one dance together, as we are both 'in demand' to fill sets seperately, at the expectation of our teacher.

I think that is a great policy, and you are even more diplomatic that most people. If married guys love dancing with their wives that is fine, but variety is the spice of life, and they should at least try to spread it around and dance with others especially if their wife gets asked by someone else. I just haven't got the guts to ask a guy to dance that does this because I am afraid of him saying no, and/or making the wife upset somehow.

Exactly, my gf spends more time dancing with other girls as a guy anyway, due to the general lack of guys :D

[Sagitta]

I've even had a girlfriend that wanted to dance so bad one night when a good song was played, she asked me did I know how to lead but she knows very well that I don't know how.
The convo went like this:
"You can lead right?"
"No, I can't."
"Really? Yes you can."
"No, Really I can't".http://www.online-thecatsmeow.com/images/Emoticons6/lol2.gif

We (salseras) see many men that know how to dance just standing around and we don't know what they're waiting for. http://www.online-thecatsmeow.com/images/Emoticons/shrug.gif
It's sad sometimes. http://www.online-thecatsmeow.com/images/Emoticons/thud.gif http://www.online-thecatsmeow.com/images/Emoticons6/lol2.gifhttp://www.online-thecatsmeow.com/images/Emoticons6/lol2.gifhttp://www.online-thecatsmeow.com/images/Emoticons6/lol2.gif

Yup. Sad it is... I sometimes don't dance much because the dj sucks and plays the same tired music overe and over again from one night to thye next. I don't care if a song is the best song ever, a cvlassic, whatever. If you going to play it a milllion times I'm not going to get inspired. My friend noted on FRiday night that he rarely sees me do much. Then he said that I just do 10% of my moves and he knows that because he has seen me in action, inspired, such as when I went to La Belle Epoque in NYC. :doh: New and good music!! What do you think?

[ArtsySalsera]

Hmmmm, they go for a female leader?
How interesting. I can only guess as to why.

I'd be interested in your guess.
luh Pride may be in there ....the good kind, not the bad kind.
The women may be adhering to the tradition that men SHOULD do the asking and if they are not going to ask then dang blasted they'll dance with the women to (for lack of a better phrase) "force the men out."
Case in point....this happened to a friend of mine when she started dancing with a woman. Actually she said they were having a good time and then two men came over to dance with each one of them.

Also the women may think that if they start asking the men, the men might get lazy and expect the women to ask all the time. I have to say that this may be a smart assumption.

Just my speculations from my experiences.

[ArtsySalsera]

I've even had a girlfriend that wanted to dance so bad one night when a good song was played, she asked me did I know how to lead but she knows very well that I don't know how.
The convo went like this:
"You can lead right?"
"No, I can't."
"Really? Yes you can."
"No, Really I can't".http://www.online-thecatsmeow.com/images/Emoticons6/lol2.gif

We (salseras) see many men that know how to dance just standing around and we don't know what they're waiting for. http://www.online-thecatsmeow.com/images/Emoticons/shrug.gif
It's sad sometimes. http://www.online-thecatsmeow.com/images/Emoticons/thud.gif http://www.online-thecatsmeow.com/images/Emoticons6/lol2.gifhttp://www.online-thecatsmeow.com/images/Emoticons6/lol2.gifhttp://www.online-thecatsmeow.com/images/Emoticons6/lol2.gif

Yup. Sad it is... I sometimes don't dance much because the dj sucks and plays the same tired music overe and over again from one night to thye next. I don't care if a song is the best song ever, a cvlassic, whatever. If you going to play it a milllion times I'm not going to get inspired. My friend noted on FRiday night that he rarely sees me do much. Then he said that I just do 10% of my moves and he knows that because he has seen me in action, inspired, such as when I went to La Belle Epoque in NYC. :doh: New and good music!! What do you think?

Hmmm that's one I've never heard before....didn't know that. Well, maybe some guys DO feel that way sometimes. When something inspiring IS played though. Do you reach for the same partners?

Let's see. Here are some other reasons I've read on this board on why
guys may not dance at any given time:

-Ego is involved sometimes and the guy may want to feed his ego by dancing with women who are below his skill level.
-Guys are there to flirt while dancing with a particular salsera(s)
and those salsera(s) only... some, staying within their own race only.
-Guys who are performers may only want to dance with other performers
who are at their skill level
-Guy may have used up all his material and can't think of anymore at the time.
-This one goes for both men and women:
A dancer may not like another dancer's style and may avoid them.
ie. not soulful enough, not ballroomish enough, too soulful, too ballroomish, not enough street style etc.

I'll have to try Belle Epoque next time I'm in NY.

[Sagitta]

I don't reach for the same people every time. At La Belle Epoque I danced with different people, and it was a one time visit. I need the music. After that I'll probably have a better time, whether or not I really get the complete connection that I desire with everyone whom I dance with. I have had the same music so many times in Ithaca that I am going more and more out of Ithaca to get what I need. Music first for me, usually. The music speaks and I respond. The only exception is if I really connect to a person. Then I really feed off that connection and it inspires me and I'll danec and danec and dance and not even realise time flying by... :oops:

[ArtsySalsera]

Yes, I think the big thing for me too is connection when a really good song/music comes on. Naturally I want to dance with someone I can flow with. Nothing wrong with that....but I will turn this back to the original topic. Don't mean to steer away from it.

[HF]

Let's see. Here are some other reasons I've read on this board on why
guys may not dance at any given time:

-Ego is involved sometimes and the guy may want to feed his ego by dancing with women who are below his skill level.

??? This one sounds strange to me. Out of 10 dances I dance 9 as an investment into the scene, and one time I enjoy myself. If I wanted to feed my ego I would pick more ladies with whom I can show off.

Anyway I am dancing all the time, so I may not be representative. :?

[Ron Obvious]

-Guy may have used up all his material and can't think of anymore at the time.


That is certainly true sometimes. Other reasons:
- Too tired
- Sweating too much
- Too many rejections that night
- Too small chance of them accepting. Sometimes you can just look at their faces and determine that they don't want to dance (they might still accept, but wouldn't enjoy it). Then I usually don't ask.

There's usually also a time aspect to the balance of men and women. I find it that no matter how many women there are in the beginning of the evening, there's always shortage of them later at night. *Always*.

[bjp22tango]

In our dance scenes there are usually more females than males, sometimes by a large margin. When there are more males than females in a class or at a dance, it really stands out as something unusual.

I started learning to lead so I could dance even if there were extra ladies, and now that I teach I have to know all the lead and follow moves.

When dancing at a social, I prefer to follow, but if the guys aren't asking, I will dance with the ladies. I do ask the guys to dance also, but sometimes you just like to get some reciprocity and have them ask you.

[bjp22tango]

Two weeks ago I went to an A.T workshop, and left silently after 5 minutes as there were not enough followers.
Last week in the class there was one leader less and after 5 minutes the lone lady went to the teacher and complained bitterly that no "change partners!" had been yelled yet. So the teacher came to ME and I had to dance with the lady. Leaders are more numerous, but followers make more fuss.

Why was it you "left silently after 5 minutes as there were not enough followers"? Did you feel you couldn't learn anything unless you had a partner to practice with?
The lady who "went to the teacher and complained bitterly that no "change partners!" had been yelled yet" at least was taking an active roll in her lesson. She didn't leave after five minutes because the numbers weren't even.

In our area, people dribble in to classes up to 15 minutes late. If the same thing happens in your area on the date you waited 5 minutes before leaving, the class might have ended up follow heavy but you wouldn't know!

It is so infrequent that the numbers turn out even in dance classes that both leaders and followers should be comfortable practicing the moves by themselves in a rotation when they don't have a partner. I find having a little time to work out my moves by myself in between partners is often good. I can think about the move instead of having to adjust to another partners lead or follow, and then take the "improved" movement into the next rotation.

[squirrel]

Totally agree, bjp22tango

[newbie]

The lady who "went to the teacher and complained bitterly that no "change partners!" had been yelled yet" at least was taking an active roll in her lesson.

...and as a result I had to leave my partner and dance with the lady. So, one was happy (the lady), and two were not (me, my partner)


If the same thing happens in your area on the date you waited 5 minutes before leaving, the class might have ended up follow heavy but you wouldn't know!



On my way back to the metro I met somebody who was late and was hurrying to the workshop. A lone leader. So, had I stayed, we would have been two leaders more.

[Ron Obvious]

On my way back to the metro I met somebody who was late and was hurrying to the workshop. A lone leader. So, had I stayed, we would have been two leaders more.

I remember a cha-cha class where we were 9 leaders and 4 followers. I think it's harder for leaders to practise on their own, you just can't grasp a new move if you don't have a partner as a "reference frame".

[HF]

On my way back to the metro I met somebody who was late and was hurrying to the workshop. A lone leader. So, had I stayed, we would have been two leaders more.

When this happens I either will go in front of the mirror and practice on my own or dance as a follower. If you did not you should definitely try, it's fun and a lesson to learn.

[squirrel]

But aren't you supposed to learn the move first by yourself and then in a couple???

At least this is how I do it in my class (not in advanced class, of course - they are supposed to know that...).

I suggest the following:
- ask teacher to rotate class often - and emphasize that, if (s)he forgets...
- dance as a follower and/or ask another guy to do it too, so that you can take turns practicing
- just try to do the move by yourself... :) I know some moves are impossible to be done alone... :)

[luh]

the chance that some people will show up later that evening is pretty high, isn't it? i mean considering, that people here never show up at the time, earliest half hour late, except if they have to do some lessons.
being on more leader is not a reason to go home. BAD idea. :shock:
during lessons it happens quite often that we have way more followers when showing up on time. Than we start the lessons anyways, being almost already annoyed that the leaders to show up, and in the end most of the times it ends up 1:1 in class, because we just accept as many leaders as followers during subscription. so nothing to really worry about.

@artsy salsera
you mentioned a split of a dancing couple. I remember this happening in america when we danced guy-guy, ladys got mad, and split us up. But here, sth like this would _NEVER_ happen. this is sth. not allowed over here.
luh

[MacMoto]

I remember a cha-cha class where we were 9 leaders and 4 followers. I think it's harder for leaders to practise on their own, you just can't grasp a new move if you don't have a partner as a "reference frame".
I think it's harder for followers to practise moves on their own. Followers are supposed to follow the lead, and my teacher says "don't move unless you are led", so no leader, no lead, not moving...

[squirrel]

Actually, IMO, all followers should be able to do their part alone... :)

One progresses more easily... :)

Of course, there are instructors who prefer to tell the followers to just follow, without being aware of what they are actually doing...

[luh]

Actually, IMO, all followers should be able to do their part alone... :)

One progresses more easily... :)

Of course, there are instructors who prefer to tell the followers to just follow, without being aware of what they are actually doing...

actually, i prefer it, if followers "just" follow. to be honest. I hate it, if someone just does sth, because they think that is supposed to come in that place...
or tell me i'm doing sth _wrong_ just because it's not the step they learned. :evil:
(if I'm doing sth really wrong, i do accept critiscm). I was out on a graduation party, and they did partner dancing. And one guy was just learning it, and was trying to do a turn, and the girl refused to do it at that place, but did it when she wanted, and told that guy he was wrong.
What i like to do if i figure out too late (already on the dancefloor), that i asked someone like that, i do moves, which are nonstandard, but are perfectly correct. sometimes it works, sometimes not :twisted:

Though, if they still follow, i see no reason that they shouldn't know what's going on.
luh

[MacMoto]

Actually, IMO, all followers should be able to do their part alone... :)
That depends on the move... some moves are totally lead-dependent so "doing their part alone" simply doesn't make sense. For example, a cross-body check only works by the follower trying to cross-body naturally and the leader stopping the movement. You can't be "checked" on your own.

[cl5814]

Actually, IMO, all followers should be able to do their part alone... :)

One progresses more easily... :)

Of course, there are instructors who prefer to tell the followers to just follow, without being aware of what they are actually doing...

My current instructor requires that the follower knows their part and can dance it separately. It has made a huge improvement in my dancing and my understanding of dance concepts. No more "just follow" like with my previous instructors. I agree with you squirrel.

[africana]

hi
just out of curiousity, i was wondering if it's true, that there are more female dancers than male ones.
please vote on it!
luh
EDIT: i forgot: everyone should be able to vote on this ;)
Yes. Which is why most men wait to be asked now in my neck of the woods. (The opinion of myself and other salseras) that's fo sho! at least the advanced leads

[ArtsySalsera]

Let's see. Here are some other reasons I've read on this board on why
guys may not dance at any given time:

-Ego is involved sometimes and the guy may want to feed his ego by dancing with women who are below his skill level.

??? This one sounds strange to me. Out of 10 dances I dance 9 as an investment into the scene, and one time I enjoy myself. If I wanted to feed my ego I would pick more ladies with whom I can show off.
It's true for some though. I've seen it.... makes them feel good. It's great for the female trying to learn.
:D I think it's really nice of you to give back/invest. :D


- Too small chance of them accepting. Sometimes you can just look at their faces and determine that they don't want to dance (they might still accept, but wouldn't enjoy it). Then I usually don't ask.Yup, same for the women who ask too.


There's usually also a time aspect to the balance of men and women. I find it that no matter how many women there are in the beginning of the evening, there's always shortage of them later at night. *Always*.
Hmmmmhttp://www.online-thecatsmeow.com/images/Emoticons/hmm.gif Veryyyy, Interesting..... I never thought of that. I'm going to watch for this the next time I'm out....stay later when I see this. When opportunity knocks..... :wink:


.....When there are more males than females in a class or at a dance, it really stands out as something unusual.Ditto for my classes. We're always surprised when this happens:!:


I started learning to lead so I could dance even if there were extra ladies, and now that I teach I have to know all the lead and follow moves.This is my next goal. It's just the smart thing to do if you have the time to learn. I'll have to MAKE time.

When dancing at a social, I prefer to follow, but if the guys aren't asking, I will dance with the ladies. I do ask the guys to dance also, but sometimes you just like to get some reciprocity and have them ask you.Yup! You are a clone of me :!: That's what I'm talking about :!: That's all I'm looking for too :!:

[lujan]

I like the nights when the caller yells out something like "every lady move one partner to the right". It gives everyone a chance to dance with someone else in a different positioin (talking set dancing here). I'm pretty sure thats how I got my first dance with my gf.

When we go to large Ceilis with 30+ sets of 8 dancers, it gets interesting. Generally whoever is running it (normally 1 of my teachers) will ask that her class just mingles and dances with strangers all night, to keep at least 1 good person in each set)

[tacad]

Actually, IMO, all followers should be able to do their part alone... :)
That depends on the move... some moves are totally lead-dependent so "doing their part alone" simply doesn't make sense. For example, a cross-body check only works by the follower trying to cross-body naturally and the leader stopping the movement. You can't be "checked" on your own.
I completely forgot about this move. Thanks!

[cornutt]

I would bet it is because they enjoy dancing. And they enjoy their wives. So I assume they really enjoy dancing with their wives.


I absolutely enjoy dancing with my wife. But we both enjoy the dancing experience in general, and we enjoy the company we're with, so we dance with others too. On a typical Friday night, I probably do: 7-8 dances with my wife; maybe 15-20 dances with other amateur females (it's a running joke at our club that myself and another male regular are obligated to dance at least once with every female present :wink: ); maybe one with our instructor if I can grab her (she's pretty busy on Friday nights, and I generally leave her to dance with the newer students); and maybe 1-2 with the other female instructors. Plus, there's the end-of-night mixer foxtrots, and the occasional barn dance or line dance. Oh yeah, and I do some of the DJ'ing too! 8)

At a social, I like to be on the floor most of the time. I probably get in 30 or so dances in a typical two-hour social. My wife likes to take breaks now and then to chat with her friends; she probably does about 20 dances a night. She wouldn't make me sit just because she wants a break.

Oh yeah, and our club nearly always has more males than females. It teaches you not to be bashful about approaching women for a dance. :D

[luh]

i saw someone posted, that he/she dances with her teacher. and it seems to be fun. our teacher knows quite a lot, and is a good teacher. but it's just no fun to dance with her. no fun at all. she always has this smile on the face which says "you gotta learn a lot more".
:roll:

[lujan]

i saw someone posted, that he/she dances with her teacher. and it seems to be fun. our teacher knows quite a lot, and is a good teacher. but it's just no fun to dance with her. no fun at all. she always has this smile on the face which says "you gotta learn a lot more".
:roll:

I try and dance with my teachers as often as possible, I allways learn something new :)

[Kuriin]

hi
just out of curiousity, i was wondering if it's true, that there are more female dancers than male ones?
please vote on it!
luh
EDIT: i forgot: everyone should be able to vote on this ;)

I believe this only holds true in the Modern and Ballet world. I do not think it's so much of a problem in ballroom dancing.

[luh]

hi
just out of curiousity, i was wondering if it's true, that there are more female dancers than male ones?
please vote on it!
luh
EDIT: i forgot: everyone should be able to vote on this ;)

I believe this only holds true in the Modern and Ballet world. I do not think it's so much of a problem in ballroom dancing.

sorry to hear about that.

seems if most people in df are not from maryland. at the moment there have more male people voted on this.
Keep voting. there are more than 50 active people in this forum :D
luh

[Kuriin]

hi
just out of curiousity, i was wondering if it's true, that there are more female dancers than male ones?
please vote on it!
luh
EDIT: i forgot: everyone should be able to vote on this ;)

I believe this only holds true in the Modern and Ballet world. I do not think it's so much of a problem in ballroom dancing.

sorry to hear about that.

seems if most people in df are not from maryland. at the moment there have more male people voted on this.
Keep voting. there are more than 50 active people in this forum :D
luh

Uhh...right. Notice how this is a ballroom dancing forum mainly? Take a ballet class and you'll see a gender difference.

[ArtsySalsera]

Actually, IMO, all followers should be able to do their part alone... :)

One progresses more easily... :)

Of course, there are instructors who prefer to tell the followers to just follow, without being aware of what they are actually doing...I've been able to help leaders by doing that in the past without my teacher's suggestion. I'm gonna start doing this again. Thanks.

[QPO]

Wow send some our way we always have more women than men....

interesting dilemma

Well, just about every single dance lesson I've been to were - and still are - 'top heavy' with leads.
Yet, all of the instructors - regardless of venue and independently from one another - act surprised every single time.
"Wow, we seem to have more guys than ladies, that has NEVER happened before!":-?:rolleyes:

In the very few[ cases when this has been the other way around, some of the extra ladies actually left.........

Judging by your description, I'm going to have to guess that the guy was maybe rude or behaved otherwise inappropriately?

[tanya_the_dancer]

Well, just about every single dance lesson I've been to were - and still are - 'top heavy' with leads.
Yet, all of the instructors - regardless of venue and independently from one another - act surprised every single time.
"Wow, we seem to have more guys than ladies, that has NEVER happened before!":-?:rolleyes:

In the very few[ cases when this has been the other way around, some of the extra ladies actually left.........

Judging by your description, I'm going to have to guess that the guy was maybe rude or behaved otherwise inappropriately?

Your area seems to be an exception. I can count on my fingers how many times I was in a class where women were outnumbered. And in the worst case situations, there were more than 2 women for every man.

[etp777]

Heh, last class I was in there was three women and me. Least it was a guy teacher this time, been in classes with worse ratios and female teachers.

[nucat78]

Heh, last class I was in there was three women and me. Least it was a guy teacher this time, been in classes with worse ratios and female teachers.

Last night - 7 women, 1 male instructor, 1 female asst instructor, me, and one other guy. The female inst danced the lead though.

[etp777]

That's got me beat. Can't remember last time I saw 7 people in a class at all. :) Guess classes before parties have been really bg lately, but I normally skip those and just show up late for the party.

[cornutt]

Your area seems to be an exception. I can count on my fingers how many times I was in a class where women were outnumbered. And in the worst case situations, there were more than 2 women for every man.

Wolfgang's situation is pretty common here too. Newcomer classes usually balance out, but everything beyond that commonly has more men then women. Same goes for Friday night.

[njdancegirl]

Wolfgang's situation is pretty common here too. Newcomer classes usually balance out, but everything beyond that commonly has more men then women. Same goes for Friday night.

How far is it from NJ to Alabama?!? ;) We are typically follower heavy around here...

[jwlinson]

Heh, tied 29 to 29 when I answered.

Sometimes our group classes will have more ladies. I have been to a few groups where there were more guys, but not many.

[tanya_the_dancer]

Tie again.

[waltzguy]

I think I accidentally voted twice, first time must have been from a while ago. It's telling me I have already voted. I hope it didn't count the second.

[jwlinson]

I think I accidentally voted twice, first time must have been from a while ago. It's telling me I have already voted. I hope it didn't count the second.

Voter fraud! I demand a recount!

[QPO]

tell me, do you think it effects your dancing if you do lead when you are meant to be a follower, especially in NV dancing I have learnt man parts and am happy to dance with the women who dont have a partner but some people say that it effect your ability to follow properly. Any opinions on that?

[QPO]

I find going to social dances it varys on a given night, sometimes we have more men and another time we have more women...such a shame we can make it work on all nights :-)

[tanya_the_dancer]

Voter fraud! I demand a recount!

Florida-style?

[waltzguy]

tell me, do you think it effects your dancing if you do lead when you are meant to be a follower, especially in NV dancing I have learnt man parts and am happy to dance with the women who dont have a partner but some people say that it effect your ability to follow properly. Any opinions on that?

I'm sure this can be a separate thread, and will probably get long quick, as it's a good topic.

I think it depends on personalities, skill, etc. I've seen some good female-female couples, so it can be done.

[waltzguy]

Voter fraud! I demand a recount!

Well, to fix it, I can vote a third time, and say I'm a female. :tongue:

[suburbaknght]

This is the part where I start making people angry by talking out of my .

We're all told there are more women dancing than men, that women are more interested in dancing than men are, etc. But in my experience that's rarely the case. I have been to classes and parties and competitions that were weighted down with both men and women, and I have to say while the standard deviation might be high, the mean is usually pretty even. Numerically, there are as many men dancing as women, give or take a few percentage points.

When you begin dividing by level, however, something compeltely different happens. At my current studio, in level 1 class the women will outnumber the men by nearly 2 to 1. When it moves up the level 2 class, however, the numbers are usually even or [I]slightly in favor of the women. By level 3 there are usually extra gentlemen.

Likewise, when I go out dancing, if there's an introductory lesson for beginners there usually far more women there than men, but after the dance has gone on for an hour or so - beyond the point of novelty and past the point where the one dance covered in the introductory lesson will keep you dancing - the numbers are roughly even. After two hours the men have a slight advantage, and by the evening's end it's the men who are in the clear majority.

These are observations I have seen across all age levels in locations from the midwest to the east coast. The tendency is for women to want to try dancing but for men - at least those who stick out the introductory class - to be interested in really learning how to dance. There are exceptions to both, many of them, as this is simply group tendencies, but it's one I've seen borne out over and over again.

I've also observed that within the ballroom world, most of the women I see who continue to take upper level classes do so with a partner, whereas there is a much higher proportion of single gentlemen in upper level classes (NB: in my experience this does not bear out with single dance groups, such as west coast, lindy hop, salsa, or Argentine tango).

[jwlinson]

Florida-style?

I'm blaming it on the dimpled/hanging radio buttons.

[tanya_the_dancer]

I'm blaming it on the dimpled/hanging radio buttons.

Make sure you push it all the way through the screen when you vote! :)

[jwlinson]

Well, to fix it, I can vote a third time, and say I'm a female. :tongue:

We'll just say you were confused with how to vote, and get yours and a ton of others thrown out. The popular vote doesn't matter anyway, so we'll let the courts decide :P

[Wolfgang]

In these parts, men almost always outnumber women in dance lessons, dance classes and dance studios.
It gets progressively worse when you venture out into the real world of bars, night clubs, etc. , where the ratio is at least 5:1 (on a good night....).
Drops to about 15:1 when PBR or other types of Rodeo come to town.

[tanya_the_dancer]

When you begin dividing by level, however, something compeltely different happens. At my current studio, in level 1 class the women will outnumber the men by nearly 2 to 1. When it moves up the level 2 class, however, the numbers are usually even or slightly in favor of the women. By level 3 there are usually extra gentlemen.


OK, I can see how when you move up to higher level classes (if your areas has them), the numbers become more even, because people are more likely to continue if they have a partner, and unpartnered women might migrate into pro-am territory and forgo group classes altogether. Although, even our advanced ballroom class has more women than men, but there are local circumstances which explain it.


Likewise, when I go out dancing, if there's an introductory lesson for beginners there usually far more women there than men, but after the dance has gone on for an hour or so - beyond the point of novelty and past the point where the one dance covered in the introductory lesson will keep you dancing - the numbers are roughly even. After two hours the men have a slight advantage, and by the evening's end it's the men who are in the clear majority.


This also makes sense, because unpartnered newish women do not stick around when they see that they're outnumbering available men, and feel that they're less likely to be asked to dance because of lack of experience. Most parties here are 2 hours long, so I can't comment about the rest of your observation.

I am not sure what happens to women after your level 2 classes. Where do they go?

[tanya_the_dancer]

It gets progressively worse when you venture out into the real world of bars, night clubs, etc. , where the ratio is at least 5:1 (on a good night....).


Now that makes sense. Why would women go to a bar or a night club?

[suburbaknght]

OK, I can see how when you move up to higher level classes (if your areas has them), the numbers become more even, because people are more likely to continue if they have a partner, and unpartnered women might migrate into pro-am territory and forgo group classes altogether. Although, even our advanced ballroom class has more women than men, but there are local circumstances which explain it.It makes sense and is an explanation, but I can't buy it as an excuse given that the single men remain.
I am not sure what happens to women after your level 2 classes. Where do they go?Usually they stop.

[tanya_the_dancer]

Usually they stop.

I wonder why.

[Wolfgang]

Why do women go to night clubs?
Well, in my experience, there's two basic types:

Those who go every once in a while - usually with a group of established friends from work,school, etc. - to goof around and let off steam.

And those who go regularly for the ego massage of being in the 'power position' of shooting down dozens and dozens of men of all imaginable stripes asking them to dance.

[cornutt]

I am not sure what happens to women after your level 2 classes. Where do they go?

I wish I knew the answer to that. At our studio, we have several fairly advanced males who can't find partners. I went to the advanced smooth techniques class last night, and we have five men and one woman, and that's the way the advanced classes have been for a while now.

[jwlinson]

And those who go regularly for the ego massage of being in the 'power position' of shooting down dozens and dozens of men of all imaginable stripes asking them to dance.

I sense someone had a bad experience... :p

[suburbaknght]

I wonder why.That's the part that gets people mad at me. Women tend to start out as "better" (http://salsastories.com/images/images9/learning_curve.jpg) dancers than men. There a number of theories about why this is: I've heard everything from the idea that followers have less to do (http://salsastories.com/stories_a-b/beginners_hell.html) to women having a greater innate connection to the music. My personal theory is that because women tend to have at least played at dance as children, even if they never took a class, they're more enthusiastic and willing to try dancing as adults, whereas men have constantly had the idea reinforced that not only should they not dance but that they can't dance and must avoid looking bad at anything at all times. In the end, it's immaterial: a typical beginning woman makes faster progress than a typical beginning man.

At least in that early beginner stage. After a few weeks to a few months, the man's hard work starts paying off while the woman finds that intermediate beginner patterns take more work than she's used to. The men who've made it to this stage are already used to putting in that work because nothing has come easily or naturally, and were mentally prepared for it even before the class; in fact, men are socially conditioned to take a disciplined approach to learning, while women are encouraged to develop innate "gifts and talents" - while those who encourage them rarely realize that such talents are more often the result of constant practice than an inborn ability. Between the shock of the extra work involved, the fact she already knows enough steps to get by, and the probability she already felt like she could dance before the class, a single woman is very likely to drop out at this stage.

I would also like to talk about women who drop out of lessons but continue dancing at this point. Tanya mentioned women who go into pro-am, and I've ranted before about people who don't take lessons (http://dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=30331). Often these women (and let's be fair, there are men too. Just switch "leader" and "follower") will say, "Oh, I just need a good leader," as a way of covering up their inability to follow or execute technique on their own. While there are many legitimate reasons to do pro-am, and even to do pro-am exclusively, many of the women who try it out do so as a way of covering up their inability to keep pace with group class. It's been my experience, however, that their lack of commitment becomes evident in pro-am as well, as the costs are prohibitively high if you're not truly committed to your dancing.

Meanwhile, those who dropped out to go social dancing with no one but advanced dancers find their options more and more limited as the advanced social dancers migrate towards their friends from class when they're not dancing with everyone.

The problem is "self-correcting" in that it naturally filters out people who aren't serious about dance. The problem is exasperated in that it filters out people who aren't serious about dance rather than convincing them it's worth the extra effort.

[jennyisdancing]

Excellent post, suburbaknght.

I am definitely finding there are usually plenty of men in the upper-level group classes (anywhere from even balance to surplus of men) so I am glad for that. Though there are many reasons to to take privates, your post reinforces the value of groups. Taking group classes demonstrates that I am interested to dance with everyone instead of a select few, want to be social, and am willing to learn what is needed to keep up with the level of my group.

[tanya_the_dancer]

I wish I knew the answer to that. At our studio, we have several fairly advanced males who can't find partners. I went to the advanced smooth techniques class last night, and we have five men and one woman, and that's the way the advanced classes have been for a while now.

Wow. I feel speechless (for a moment) . And of course, jealous that some people have advanced group classES (stressing plural here).

I have a sort of a theory about it, though. There is a certain personality trait, which I call "the desire to beat the game", and I think it is more prevalent in men than in women (although I myself am guilty of this trait as well). And maybe continuing on with dancing beyond a certain skill point, especially when you don't really have much of a chance of a meaningful dance career, is another manifestation of that personal quality. Although it can demonstrate itself in other activities, too.

[flashdance]

Last night - 7 women, 1 male instructor, 1 female asst instructor, me, and one other guy. The female inst danced the lead though.

monday night - 6 women, 1 female instructor, 2 female asst instructors and just little old me. There have never been any other guys in my tap classes and that's been going on for four years now.

Because I sort of stick out like a sore thumb they slap bang me in the middle of the stage as the main lead... but I love ze curtain... there's no other feeling like it.

[Lioness]

I just evened out the poll...I guess it's 50/50 on here, at least.

[cornutt]

I have a sort of a theory about it, though. There is a certain personality trait, which I call "the desire to beat the game", and I think it is more prevalent in men than in women

Excellent point. I had not thought about it that way before. But you're right -- part of my own motivation is to beat physics at its own game. :cool:

[fascination]

lol...maybe a little pretentious but pleh...I occasionally quote myself in my sig...there are worse faults

[tanya_the_dancer]

Excellent point. I had not thought about it that way before. But you're right -- part of my own motivation is to beat physics at its own game. :cool:

I'm just thinking about someone I know, who has this quality in abundance and how far in dancing would he get if he applied this drive to dancing instead of Might&Magic. Even if he just started now, in his late 50s, I think he'd still be able to advance quite a bit. What a pity.

[Chiron]

So does DF count as an beginner/intermediate/ or advanced class? ;)

[Wolfgang]

'Bad experience' is relative.
If you're a white guy, under 6'2 and drug free you will experience a TON of rejection and setbacks, especially in what I call the Real World.
Better get used to it, because such is the way the world works.

[fascination]

wha?????...then again, maybe i don't want an explanation

[jwlinson]

'Bad experience' is relative.
If you're a white guy, under 6'2 and drug free you will experience a TON of rejection and setbacks, especially in what I call the Real World.
Better get used to it, because such is the way the world works.

Hm... I'm white, 5'11, drug free...

I'm doing ok.

[QPO]

I think it must be regional. Bad behavior wont cut it here. Those that are poor on the personal skills will sit down most of the night.

[Wolfgang]

'Bad behavior' is also relative.
I guarantee you neither my behavior nor manners are lacking.

That's part of the problem - need more sideways baseball cap, 'Yo, b****!' and tattoos.
Not kidding.

[fascination]

and you want to dance with women who prefer that because....?

[chachachacat]

Yesterday I had four guys and no ladies in class!

[Wolfgang]

Fascination - Very simple: Because most of the attractive women in this area fall into that category.

Chachacat - Now that sounds familiar!

[fascination]

sir.... if you are willing to dance with stupid (i.e. any woman who would prefer a guy who speaks to her the way you mentioned in your previous post)...it seems to me that you are signing up for frustration...and that your priorities might be part of the problem...I cannot believe, having been to dance venues in both Santa Fe and Albequerque, that one would need to stoop so low for someone reasonably attractive...now if you are looking for women significantly younger than yourself..yes, that might be the only sort of attractive younger woman who is available...but I find it remarkably hard to believe that a reasonably attractive woman around your own age would prefer to be spoken to in the manner you describe...shrug...something just does not compute...

[dancelvr]

I wish I knew the answer to that. At our studio, we have several fairly advanced males who can't find partners. I went to the advanced smooth techniques class last night, and we have five men and one woman, and that's the way the advanced classes have been for a while now.


I am sooooo moving to Alabama! :D

[dancingirldancing]

'Bad experience' is relative.
If you're a white guy, under 6'2 and drug free you will experience a TON of rejection and setbacks, especially in what I call the Real World.
Better get used to it, because such is the way the world works.


Hey I must not have lived in a real world then ...... I never reject anyone like that for a social or a try out ..... geeez in fact I NEVER reject anyone .... I must be conformist then .....

I have rejected someone for a partnership but it is only either because they want to compete a completely different events or dance style from me...

Around my area still way more females compared to males and even more so at the higher levels :(

[dancingirldancing]

That's part of the problem - need more sideways baseball cap, 'Yo, b****!' and tattoos.
Not kidding.

You mean to get a dance or to get a punch ?

I will surely do the later if any one 'Yo, b****!' me.

[sknerr]

In the Buffalo swing dance scene we consistently have more leads then follows. I've heard that this was the opposite of most every other scene.

Yup. Sad it is... I sometimes don't dance much because the dj sucks and plays the same tired music overe and over again from one night to thye next. I don't care if a song is the best song ever, a cvlassic, whatever. If you going to play it a milllion times I'm not going to get inspired. My friend noted on FRiday night that he rarely sees me do much. Then he said that I just do 10% of my moves and he knows that because he has seen me in action, inspired, such as when I went to La Belle Epoque in NYC. :doh: New and good music!! What do you think?

Did you ever try DJing yourself? It's not that hard to get into if you have a semi-decent collection of music.

[Wolfgang]

Age doesn't seem to make too much of a difference here, in fact, I tend to get better responses from younger ladies, like 20-something or so.

[suburbaknght]

I started getting serious about dance in my early-twenties and now, in my mid-twenties, when I go out social dancing I'm usually dancing with partners two to three times my age. Not since I left Wisconsin and the wonderful university social ballroom club has it been the norm for me to have partners in my own age bracket. Because of this, every three to four months I'll make the two hour drive to one of the universities "around" here for their semesterly ballroom social. There, I'll be reminded of why I've enjoyed dancing so much more since I got away from the university scene.

1) Many, if not most, university girls are very arrogant about their dancing. The one summer I trained with a university team the attitudes from most of the were beyond haughty; they were toxic to the point that despite several offers to join the team and for partnerships I didn't feel comfortable staying (there were several notable exceptions, girls I'm still friends with, but they were by far the exception).

2) Most univeristies have only a competition team but not a regular social dance group. Even if they give social lessons, social dances occur so rarely that students have very poor lead and follow. I come away from these events battered and bruised from the recklessness of others, while exhausted from trying to steer. These are events that make me loath quickstep. Don't even get me started on trying to find a partner who knows American style.

3) There is little range of skill so much as extremes. There are a few girls who are on the team and are at the top of their game. They dance every dance like the judges are watching, usually with very little personal connection and technique far and above what is appropriate for a social floor (see point 2). The majority of the rest have no little to no experience whatsoever.

4) The cliques, dear God, the cliques. If you thought a regular studio was cliquish...

That said, some of my favorite nights out dancing are at university socials. There do tend to be more experienced partners than at any event, save for a dance camp or the grand ball of a competition. Due to the newness of dancing, everyone from the experienced girls to the complete newbies tends to retain the enthusiasm of a beginner. And, to be honest, it's fun dancing with pretty girls.

That said, I still prefer dancing with the older women when I go out social dancing. Regardless of their skill level, they tend to have worked out all the attitude issues that plague younger girls, and it's something they've worked out years ago. When it comes to younger girls vs. older girls, I'll dance with the girls for the novelty, but for the sheer enjoyment of it, I want a woman.

[I-Man]

If you're a white guy, under 6'2 and drug free you will experience a TON of rejection and setbacks, especially in what I call the Real World.
Better get used to it, because such is the way the world works.

and ...


That's part of the problem - need more sideways baseball cap, 'Yo, b****!' and tattoos.
Not kidding.

Dang! Perhaps you should consider visiting different dance haunts.

I dont know where YOU hang out, but all the joints I hang out at, the cuties are not impressed by sideways baseball caps and foul mouthed braggadocio. Instead they are impressed by how well a guy executes on the dance floor. And if the dude has got a fabulous lead which is a joy to follow... in almost any type of dance, even,... then they soon develop that "lovestruck" look in their eyes.

Let me ask you something. These places where you go and encounter these snooty princesses, did you ever got the rare opportunity to actually dance with one? And if so, can they actually follow? If not, then I'd say you are barking up the wrong tree.

I don't know about you but I find myself getting quickly bored by any one who essentially "can't dance" or cannot follow enough to be enjoyable (even if you are intentionally dancing at the novice level to be considerate of them). Should I find myself literally struggling with a given follower for most of a song, then that's it, any potential chemistry I have with that person is long gone and I am no longer interested, regardless of how hot she is.

You can claim I've "crossed over to the dark side" if you want, but I find myself getting irresistably drawn to those ladies who can execute tight body isolations, enticingly improvise and "play" on the dance floor, can follow like she's a mind reader, or can accentuate and extend any move you initiated in pleasant ways you never thought possible. For me, that infatuation can surface regardless of the lady's age, body type, or static comeliness... or lack thereof.

Show me an "ugly duckling" who can pull off jaw dropping body rolls, delayed timing to match your own, or has got killa cuban motion, and that it, man. Instant crush! :raisebro:

[fascination]

A) i rather doubt that a woman who responds to "yo...b----" is a princess
B) social dancing is by it's nature a huge mix of various skill levels and personalities...I always find it odd that folks can be so particular and critical...I suspect that if I was to be that critical, I would be sitting out the entire evening

[jennyisdancing]

and ...

Dang! Perhaps you should consider visiting different dance haunts.

I dont know where YOU hang out, but all the joints I hang out at, the cuties are not impressed by sideways baseball caps and foul mouthed braggadocio. Instead they are impressed by how well a guy executes on the dance floor. And if the dude has got a fabulous lead which is a joy to follow... in almost any type of dance, even,... then they soon develop that "lovestruck" look in their eyes.

Let me ask you something. These places where you go and encounter these snooty princesses, did you ever got the rare opportunity to actually dance with one? And if so, can they actually follow? If not, then I'd say you are barking up the wrong tree.

I don't know about you but I find myself getting quickly bored by any one who essentially "can't dance" or cannot follow enough to be enjoyable (even if you are intentionally dancing at the novice level to be considerate of them). Should I find myself literally struggling with a given follower for most of a song, then that's it, any potential chemistry I have with that person is long gone and I am no longer interested, regardless of how hot she is.

You can claim I've "crossed over to the dark side" if you want, but I find myself getting irresistably drawn to those ladies who can execute tight body isolations, enticingly improvise and "play" on the dance floor, can follow like she's a mind reader, or can accentuate and extend any move you initiated in pleasant ways you never thought possible. For me, that infatuation can surface regardless of the lady's age, body type, or static comeliness... or lack thereof.

Show me an "ugly duckling" who can pull off jaw dropping body rolls, delayed timing to match your own, or has got killa cuban motion, and that it, man. Instant crush! :raisebro:

Dance with me, I-Man...:D

and ITA, as far as Wolfgang's comments, I can't even imagine that any women in a serious dance venue would actually favor being with ignorant thug types. For that matter, I never see the ignorant thug types attending serious dance events anyway.. By 'serious' events, I mean where people are there specifically to practice a dance they learned such as salsa, swing, ballroom, etc. In a few salsa venues I see a couple of the younger guys wearing caps and some rapper wear, but that means nothing if they're acting respectful and trying to dance well.

Now if you are talking just a typical hip-hop club or sports bar with a pickup scene rather than a true dance scene, maybe that's another story.

[jwlinson]

'Bad behavior' is also relative.
I guarantee you neither my behavior nor manners are lacking.

That's part of the problem - need more sideways baseball cap, 'Yo, b****!' and tattoos.
Not kidding.

Never seen anything like this at any dance or swing event I've been to lately.

[j_alexandra]

<snip>

You can claim I've "crossed over to the dark side" if you want, but I find myself getting irresistably drawn to those ladies who can execute tight body isolations, enticingly improvise and "play" on the dance floor, can follow like she's a mind reader, or can accentuate and extend any move you initiated in pleasant ways you never thought possible. For me, that infatuation can surface regardless of the lady's age, body type, or static comeliness... or lack thereof.

Show me an "ugly duckling" who can pull off jaw dropping body rolls, delayed timing to match your own, or has got killa cuban motion, and that it, man. Instant crush! :raisebro:

Just curious: how often does this happen -- that in a social dance, you get a follower who can really dance you? FWIW, to be a follower like that is one of my goals/dreams, but I find that at socials, most leaders aren't looking for that kind of follow.

BOT, in our "advanced" class, there are finally the same number of men/women, but for a long time, it skewed to men. We occasionally have an extra woman, not often. At socials, the other way around: women everywhere, fewer men.

[Wolfgang]

Several issues here:

As far as attitude problems are concerned, my experiences have been quite different, actually, it seems as though the highest percentage of toxic attitude bombs are generally found not among the young ladies, but rather in the mid-30's to mid-50's age ranges.
And 'cliquish' behavoir is far from limited to high school (VERY far.....), but that sort of thing usually kind of bounces off me anyway.

The 'snooty princesses' (who wouldn't know what a real Princess was if she bit them in the nose....) are usually not there (wherever 'there' may be) to dance, but to see, be seen and hook up with the tallest, most 'bad boy gangsta' looking dude with the highest drug potential.
When one of them does let herself be led onto the dance floor by this obviously far 'inferior' man (......), they tend to be quite stunned by the results.
However, I am shteel not 6'5, have no tattoos, no prison record and no drugs - this whole thing about the guy who can dance getting the girl is a fairy tale.
Probably perpetrated by dance studios to drum up business.

Going to different dance venues - well, in this city of approximately 3/4 million, there's only so many.........several of them having been closed down last summer due to liquor licensing/nuisance regulations.
I think it's part of the Mayor's plan to 'revitalize' downtown (read: homeless spittoon) : If you shut down everything else, people have no choice but to go downtown......

As far as 'serious' dance venues are concerned (meaning studios and such), that'll be a good option in about 15-20 years, if you get my meaning.

[fascination]

I think is wise to pay attention to why women of a mature age seem to shun a man of their own age...b/c they are likely to appreciate a man for his dance skills but only take it further if he can back it up with a kind personality...it is only the youngest of women who haven't made enough mistakes yet who will go for an older guy who can dance but whose disposition is one of too much ego...as the older ladies only have so much time to hook up themselves...and they too may have already wasted a decade on bad choices...guess it depends on what one is looking for...seems to me that one has a better chance of finding something worth keeping at a studio venue...but again, that depends upon what one is looking to keep versus looking to have for a while...since i simply go there to dance...shrug...how attractive someone is or isn't is not particularly relevant to me...and I am happy to dance with anyone who asks...if I have determined that I am in the mood to accept whatever I get as opposed to hoping that something wonderful will be waiting there for me

[samina]

Why do women go to night clubs?
Well, in my experience, there's two basic types:

Those who go every once in a while - usually with a group of established friends from work,school, etc. - to goof around and let off steam.

And those who go regularly for the ego massage of being in the 'power position' of shooting down dozens and dozens of men of all imaginable stripes asking them to dance.
huh... do you mean a club where partner dancing is done, or a non-partner-dancing club?

shoot, i go to clubs by myself, not with a gaggle of chicks and not for ego-massaging... for the *dancing*.

[samina]

I wish I knew the answer to that. At our studio, we have several fairly advanced males who can't find partners. I went to the advanced smooth techniques class last night, and we have five men and one woman, and that's the way the advanced classes have been for a while now.

generally the same in these parts as well. we've discussed this dynamic before on DF... how the women excel quickly in the earlier classes while the men stumble along because it's so challenging to learn how to lead. and in the more advanced classes are the men that stuck it out, but fewer women.

[samina]

lol...maybe a little pretentious but pleh...I occasionally quote myself in my sig...there are worse faults
i love that you did that... was quite surprised, lol. good for you -- it's a good quote.

[Chris Stratton]

Several issues here

It's not entirely clear to me what you are looking for when you go out, but it really sounds like you are not encountering compatible people who are there for the same reason that you are, and pretty much everything else seems to follow from that fundamental problem.

[tanya_the_dancer]

As far as 'serious' dance venues are concerned (meaning studios and such), that'll be a good option in about 15-20 years, if you get my meaning.

No, we don't. You go to clubs where dancing is not the main focus and you're unhappy with the crowd there, but you don't want to go to real dance venues because ...

[fascination]

actually, sounds to me like he is looking to connect with an attractive younger woman who will appreciate his merits over a gangster's and who can dance and who will think he is the cat's meow...which is a tall order for a single older man...unless he has a very big wallet, makes it known, and is willing to suspend any concerns over that being a possible contributing factor....now I could be wrong and will stand corrected....sometimes things are hard to interprete on the internet...but in my experience, if it is the people who are significantly younger than you who are more interested in you, it generally isn't a good thing...not always...but often...again, am sure I will be corrected if I have it wrong...and that is fine

[jennyisdancing]

No, we don't. You go to clubs where dancing is not the main focus and you're unhappy with the crowd there, but you don't want to go to real dance venues because ...

Yeah, I don't get it either. Dance studios a good option in 15 or 20 years? Huh? At my studio there are people of all ages, and they're very nice. If someone chooses a 'bar scene' rather than a dance venue, then the complaints are IMO having nothing to do with dancing at all.

[Chris Stratton]

Yeah, I don't get it either. Dance studios a good option in 15 or 20 years? Huh? At my studio there are people of all ages, and they're very nice.

Whatever else may be going on, it is largely true that most dance studio or ballroom venue social crowds tend to have a relatively high median age. In general, the younger adults are concentrated around college age or shortly thereafter, tend to be based in certain venues (or even only present during practice time, not at events) and rarely venture to others, except perhaps as a group. New people occasional wander in, but generally as someone gains experience they gravitate to the parts of the local dance scene where they are less atypical in terms of both age and approach, because they are happier there.

[danceronice]

actually, sounds to me like he is looking to connect with an attractive younger woman who will appreciate his merits over a gangster's and who can dance and who will think he is the cat's meow...which is a tall order for a single older man...unless he has a very big wallet, makes it known, and is willing to suspend any concerns over that being a possible contributing factor....now I could be wrong and will stand corrected....sometimes things are hard to interprete on the internet...but in my experience, if it is the people who are significantly younger than you who are more interested in you, it generally isn't a good thing...not always...but often...again, am sure I will be corrected if I have it wrong...and that is fine

This was my take on it as well. It sounds like a type I have encountered (coming at this from the 30ish, female end of things). My suggestion would be don't go to clubs where the general type is gangsta if that's not your bag.

Though I also agree with Chris Stratton that the age at ballroom-specific venues tends to skew either college-age or high, and I would add it also tends to be a pretty consistent group of the same people every time.

[fascination]

which shouldn't be an issue if one is the poster's age, unless that is not him in his avatar...unless of course he is explicitly looking for someone fairly young

[jennyisdancing]

This was my take on it as well. It sounds like a type I have encountered (coming at this from the 30ish, female end of things). My suggestion would be don't go to clubs where the general type is gangsta if that's not your bag.

Though I also agree with Chris Stratton that the age at ballroom-specific venues tends to skew either college-age or high, and I would add it also tends to be a pretty consistent group of the same people every time.

If someone is looking for 20's or 30's women, there are plenty of them in my local salsa and swing venues. But that's my location, maybe it's different elsewhere.

[fascination]

but doubtful that plenty of them in that venue are going to prefer an older male

[Wolfgang]

Interpreting someone else's situation over the internet is indeed difficult.
The main problem with the younger ladies is not that they 'shun' me, it's the age old 'all the good ones are taken' syndrome.
Plus, this area is famous for teen moms, virtually every halfway appealing female over the age of 16 or so has at least one kid.
Many of them are done by the time they hit 22.
And they're still in love with the father(s) of the kid(s), be they in prison, dead or on the lam.
I've paid my dues to the 'Single Mother Scene' , no thanks......
There's at least 2 ladies (24 and 25 ,respectively) who I know are very interested, but I don't see them as more than friends.

Ladies my age tend to be looking for guys in their 20's.

Older ladies certainly don't 'shun' me either, but I'm not into that.
I know this is considered a hanging offense in some circles, but I still do want my own kids, so going after women much over 35/40 isn't going to do me any good, realistically speaking.

[Throwaway Overshare]

I know this is considered a hanging offense in some circles, but I still do want my own kids, so going after women much over 35/40 isn't going to do me any good, realistically speaking.

And this is a problem for dancing how?

[jennyisdancing]

And this is a problem for dancing how?

Yes...the issues discussed don't seem to have a lot to do with the topic of this forum.

[danceronice]

Yeah, I don't go to dance parties looking for a husband and father of my children. (Well, actually, if he wants children I'd run VERY FAR AWAY anyway.) But if that's what you're after, try a dating service, not a dance party?

[jwlinson]

Yeah, I don't go to dance parties looking for a husband and father of my children. (Well, actually, if he wants children I'd run VERY FAR AWAY anyway.) But if that's what you're after, try a dating service, not a dance party?

You know, this could be a thread in and of itself (and probably already is)...

Many people use dance parties, group classes, etc. as a singles event. They show up, get partnered with another unpartnered person (who may or may not be single, and who quite possibly is just there to learn to dance, surprise surprise), and then their partner for the night doesn't show back up next class since he/she perceives the dance scene as a singles scene now. It's happened too many times to count at our studio classes and parties.

I'll echo the above. If you're looking to hook up for a long-term relationship, use a dating service.

On topic, we had three unpartnered ladies at last group class.

[Throwaway Overshare]

I'll echo the above. If you're looking to hook up for a long-term relationship, use a dating service.

On the other hand, if you really are there primarily to dance, and dancing is what you do will all of your free time, then it may be that you best long-term relationship prospects are with other dancers - but don't expect to meet people very often that way.

[suburbaknght]

Just to point out, it's not uncommon for there to be dance parties for singles. I can think of two places off the top of my head that run regular singles nights for the ballroom/Latin crowd. That said, they tend to target (and even restrict) to the 40+ crowd.

[I-Man]

Just to point out, it's not uncommon for there to be dance parties for singles. I can think of two places off the top of my head that run regular singles nights for the ballroom/Latin crowd. That said, they tend to target (and even restrict) to the 40+ crowd.


Interesting! Why they would want to restrict "singles" dances to be above a certain age group is beyond me, considering the overall posting trend in this thread alone which seems to favor older folks (of either sex) gunning for the younger dancers.

In my geographic region, those "singles" clubs which run dances and which advertise they are for the 40+ crowd, laughably NEVER get people who are truly in their forties. Instead, they get LOTS of semi-retired, or way past retired people.

One singles group in particular we avoid because most of their music is undanceable and their crowd lacks any age variety whatsoever. I won't even bother reciting the nickname many of our dancers have for that particular club's "dances".

Of course if you go into the urban party places which advertise Friday night or Saturday night "dancing" and draw the younger party-goers, then you run into the typical type of patron Wolfgang keeps referring to. But as I mentioned before, I typically don't frequent those places. That's mostly because, first of all, it is more of a "meat market" than a real dance haunt, and secondly, when you finally get to dance with any of the "regulars", they truly can't dance. There's just no enjoyment from dancing there. Just being honest.

When I go someplace ( I really don't care if it is "Mangos Tropical Cafe" in South Beach, The "Copacabana" in NYC, The Ohio Star Ball, any local USA Dance Sport event, Latin/Salsa dance, Fraternity /Sorority shindig, Swing dance, Milonga, local bar/lounge, my best friend's wedding reception, any local "singles" dance, or any other kind of event where "dancing" is advertised ) with the expectation or hope to get some dancing in... the draw for me, honestly, is the dancing and not because of any other reason. I am sorry, but I just don't go there hunting for a hook up or a booty call. I go there to dance. Period.

I am hoping I am not alone in that opinion. Certainly not in a forum based website like this.

(Caveat: Once I arrive there, I might still engage in some innocent flirting though! ;) )

[tanya_the_dancer]

Just to point out, it's not uncommon for there to be dance parties for singles. I can think of two places off the top of my head that run regular singles nights for the ballroom/Latin crowd. That said, they tend to target (and even restrict) to the 40+ crowd.

I've been to some events which reserved several tables for singles. Still, those events attracted mainly 45+ crowd.

[fascination]

I am hoping I am not alone in that opinion. Certainly not in a forum based website like this.

(Caveat: Once I arrive there, I might still engage in some innocent flirting though! ;) )
:cool:exactly

[steppinout]

At my studio there are only a few boy dancers.

[etp777]

Welcome to DF, steppinout.

[fascination]

boy as in under 18?

[fascination]

Welcome to DF, steppinout.ditto

[steppinout]

Yeah we mainly teach 3 to 18 year olds. Although we do have an adult tap class and some students continue to take classes at the studio for a few years after high school. And thank you for the welcoming.

[opendoor]

The longer I dance I find that there is a surplus of men. When I started dancing it was the other way round, found myself cock of the walk. Now I have to look carefully to find a dance partner.

What are your experiences, guys?

[tanya_the_dancer]

The longer I dance I find that there is a surplus of men. When I started dancing it was the other way round, found myself cock of the walk. Now I have to look carefully to find a dance partner.

What are your experiences, guys?

Not in this part of the world.

[katherinejh]

Yeah that is definitely not something I've run into, but maybe I'm just not advanced enough.

[wiseman]

The longer I dance I find that there is a surplus of men. When I started dancing it was the other way round, found myself cock of the walk. Now I have to look carefully to find a dance partner.

What are your experiences, guys?

Yeah, it's like that with me. When I first started, there were significantly more women than men. Now if there is ever a shortage of men, it's only short by 1 or 2. And sometimes we are 1-2 women short and the male instructor needs to be the follower. It happened at my last Salsa class, in fact. This almost never happened during my first couple of months in dance classes, but lately, it's been happening quite a bit. Not sure why, though.

[opendoor]

..but maybe I'm just not advanced enough.

hi katherine, may be that there is kind of a reversed developement: couples start together at the beginning, men give up frustratedly in series, women have no dps, and give up, too. Finally there is an overhang of the remaining men, perhaps anyway?



Not in this part of the world.
.................
Location: US


do you live in a town or in the countryside?

[danceronice]

Where do you live, so I can move there?

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Merged threads :)

[Subliminal]

In AT in my area, it seems that lately there are a lot more men in group classes than women. Socials, there are usually a few more women.

[Warren J. Dew]

Yeah, it's like that with me. When I first started, there were significantly more women than men. Now if there is ever a shortage of men, it's only short by 1 or 2. And sometimes we are 1-2 women short and the male instructor needs to be the follower. It happened at my last Salsa class, in fact. This almost never happened during my first couple of months in dance classes, but lately, it's been happening quite a bit. Not sure why, though.

In previous discussions here, I think it's been established that women are less likely to go to group classes once they are more advanced, even if they continue to go to dances. I think this was because they get less value out of group classes: men learn figures that they can choose to use, while for the women, group classes are less valuable.

There also tends to be more men at more advanced amateur competitive levels, because women tend to drop out at an earlier age. Obviously that doesn't apply to pro-am, which is much more attractive to female students due to the asymmetric lead/follow dynamic.

[katherinejh]

hi katherine, may be that there is kind of a reversed developement: couples start together at the beginning, men give up frustratedly in series, women have no dps, and give up, too. Finally there is an overhang of the remaining men, perhaps anyway?



I know this is the prevailing theory, but it doesn't seem true for my specific area. I am beginning open ten dance after moving through the syllabus levels and it is a lot of women and no men. The group class I attend has two-three men and eight-ten women every week and has been that way for the last year. I'm dancing a style I don't prefer at my next comp because after a year of looking I couldn't find a partner in the style I do prefer. To be fair, I am within a collegiate context, which seems to be very different sometimes.

[3wishes]

I, for one, would love to know where the surplus "leads" are. Because in 6 years of ballroom - I've yet to find "extra" men. It's more like 5 ladies to every gent.

[Warren J. Dew]

To be fair, I am within a collegiate context, which seems to be very different sometimes.

It is. People tend to leave the collegiate scene when they graduate, which happens to both men and women. It's childbirth that happens only to women.

[wooh]

I think the surplus leads are doing salsa. Definitely a better balance at salsa parties than at ballroom parties.

[sambanada]

It seems that more men are getting involved in dancing since the popularity of the dance shows. Perhaps it is becoming more accepted in our culture.

[Dots]

From what I have observed, the ratio of women vs men is pretty consistent in my studio:

In group classes, the rate is usually 1 to 2 women for every man.
In supervised practices, the rate is usually 1 to 3 women for every man.

In over a year, there has only been 2 instances where there were more men than women. Being a guy, I won't complain ;)

On the few occasions when I went to a salsa club, the ratio was roughly equal for men and women. I have yet to figure out why.

[toothlesstiger]

When I was in California, it was about even, men to women, ballroom or salsa. In the Seattle area, ballroom events always have significantly more women.
As to the comments on who asks who to dance, I will dance primarily with my wife, and dance with other ladies I know. I don't feel any obligation to dance with strangers. If I go out to dance with my wife, and I only get to dance with her once or twice, I don't think I would bother going out.

[Warren J. Dew]

In supervised practices, the rate is usually 1 to 3 women for every man.

I'm curious - how does that work? Do the extra women practice by themselves, or do they switch off their partners?

On the few occasions when I went to a salsa club, the ratio was roughly equal for men and women. I have yet to figure out why.

I could be wrong, but my impression is that salsa clubs have a significant "meat market" component, which may be more attractive to men.

[Dots]

I'm curious - how does that work? Do the extra women practice by themselves, or do they switch off their partners?

I could be wrong, but my impression is that salsa clubs have a significant "meat market" component, which may be more attractive to men.

Um, now that I think about it, you’re probably right about the Salsa part. It does make perfect sense at least in the context of the clubs that I visited.

As for our supervised practices, most often the women are talking with each other on the side while waiting for the song to end and for the chance to get picked on the next dance by one of the men or teachers (very few women actually ask men). Some women know enough beginning man steps to lead other women, but there are few of them in our studio.

[wiseman]

In previous discussions here, I think it's been established that women are less likely to go to group classes once they are more advanced, even if they continue to go to dances. I think this was because they get less value out of group classes: men learn figures that they can choose to use, while for the women, group classes are less valuable.

There also tends to be more men at more advanced amateur competitive levels, because women tend to drop out at an earlier age. Obviously that doesn't apply to pro-am, which is much more attractive to female students due to the asymmetric lead/follow dynamic.

I went to Saturday class today. The schedule is Salsa On2 beginners at 1:30, then Salsa Intermediate I at 2:30 and finally Salsa Intermediate II at 3:30. I arrived at the studio at 2:15 to go to Intermediate class and a girl from the beginner class walks out of the classroom and sees me. She tells me to go join the beginner class because they are extremely short of leaders. I told her I would like to, but I didn't pay for the beginner class. The owner overhears me and tells me to go ahead if the intstructor needs help. I go in and ask the teacher if he needs leaders and he said, "yes." I couldn't believe what I saw. There were 10 women at the beginner class and only 2 men. When jumped in and help, it was now 3. It's 4 when you include the instructor. But I was shocked to pieces at the shortage of men in class. I've never seen it THAT short before.

So anyways, Intermediate class begins 15 minutes later and there were 5 of us men and 8 women. It's 6 men when you include the instructor.

But as you can see, in the beginner class, the shortage was HUGE. Before I helped out, 7 women had to dance without partners because only 3 leaders were there (2 students and the instructor). But in the Intermediate class, only 2 women ended up without partners during the rotation. Big difference.

So, Warren is probably correct. Fewer men and more women take beginner classes. And more men and fewer women advance to Intermediate. That's not to say that women don't advance. They do. But maybe they decided to forgo group classes and just start taking privates. Or maybe when men start getting the hang of things, they become very motivated to continue and stick to dancing. I know that's the way "I" feel.

[jennyisdancing]

So, Warren is probably correct. Fewer men and more women take beginner classes. And more men and fewer women advance to Intermediate. That's not to say that women don't advance. They do. But maybe they decided to forgo group classes and just start taking privates. Or maybe when men start getting the hang of things, they become very motivated to continue and stick to dancing. I know that's the way "I" feel.

Yeah, my sense of it is, most men avoid trying to learn dancing at all, but of those who do take it up, they want to try hard and be really successful. Kind of a male competitive instinct, I guess. Whereas some women treat dance as a casual, fun hobby; they take a beginner class, they're satisfied with that and don't feel driven to get better.

[tanya_the_dancer]

But maybe they decided to forgo group classes and just start taking privates.

That definitely true here. For me group classes offered locally have stopped being useful a long time ago. The only exception was advanced ballroom technique class we had couple of years ago. That would be still useful and I would love it if we had something like that again, but at this point it's not happening. Although I didn't make a switch from groups to privates just like that. I started with group classes, then added privates to supplement that, and then eventually stopped taking our typical groups when I realized that I am not getting new information out of them.

[toothlesstiger]

Another 2 cents, after doing a bit of following. For social dancers, the dynamics for men and women are very different. If a lady learns to follow well, in principle she doesn't ever need to learn any figures. Every man she dances with provides a different dance experience, with potentially different figures. A man who leads well has only those figures he has already learned. The only way he gets to do any new figures is to go out and learn them. So there is great incentive for a man to continue taking classes, just to keep expanding his repertoire, and keep from getting bored.

And, let's face it, intermediate and advanced classes are usually just teaching intermediate and advanced figures. Some of the most successful teachers I have known are just good at inventing new figures week after week, and that keeps the boys coming in for more.

[wiseman]

Another 2 cents, after doing a bit of following. For social dancers, the dynamics for men and women are very different. If a lady learns to follow well, in principle she doesn't ever need to learn any figures. Every man she dances with provides a different dance experience, with potentially different figures. A man who leads well has only those figures he has already learned. The only way he gets to do any new figures is to go out and learn them. So there is great incentive for a man to continue taking classes, just to keep expanding his repertoire, and keep from getting bored.

And, let's face it, intermediate and advanced classes are usually just teaching intermediate and advanced figures. Some of the most successful teachers I have known are just good at inventing new figures week after week, and that keeps the boys coming in for more.

Yes, exactly!!! A woman can learn all these wonderful turn patterns, but there's no guarantee that the man she dances with at a social will do those turn patterns. And the leader will almost always do a turn pattern that the woman has never learned no matter how many lessons she went for. That is where the woman needs good following skills. So, with woman, it's different. They don't know what turn pattern in a dance is coming her way. Therefore, it's probably best for her to take privates so her instructor can really focus on having her feel a man's lead so she can do any turn pattern that the man throws her way. With men, we have to plan the dance, so we need to know what turn patterns to do to keep the woman interested. Since Intermediate group classes cover a lot of turn pattens, it's a great class for us men. We learn a variety of different turn patterns that we can try out at our next social dance. Women can't do that because they are not the ones leading the dance. They have to do what the leader leads them to do.

[dancingirldancing]

What is turn patterns ?

[wooh]

It's a salsa thing.

[dancingirldancing]

Where I dance, fewer men take dance seriously they just want to find a girlfriend.

However there is a lot of women who want to do comps, etc.

So it is not the number but the goals that are different !

[DL]

Where I dance, fewer men take dance seriously they just want to find a girlfriend.

However there is a lot of women who want to do comps, etc.

So it is not the number but the goals that are different !

"Taking dance seriously" and "wanting to find a girlfriend" aren't mutually exclusive.

[DL]

And, let's face it, intermediate and advanced classes are usually just teaching intermediate and advanced figures. Some of the most successful teachers I have known are just good at inventing new figures week after week, and that keeps the boys coming in for more.

My favorite group classes are the ones in which the instructor takes time to teach the details of the figure at hand. I see the patterns almost as incidental vehicles for learning how to dance.

When instructors don't/can't teach in detail, it's very frustrating for me and I begin to see the class as pointless. When instructors seem able to teach in detail but prepared only to to show a pattern, I think it's lazy. When they seem to assume that learning a pattern is all I want or is all I can learn, I think it's insulting (excusably insulting perhaps, if they don't know me, but still).

[asdepique]

After 15 years of ballroom dancing, here some observations:
Many men learn to dance to meet women.
Many men learning to dance are shy.
More advanced is a man, easier for him to meet women.


In my dance school, advanced men can attend lower level class for free, when women outnumber men in a class. I know some advanced men attending many class in the same week just to try to meet as many women as possible. Advanced men are popular in beginner class because they are good leaders.

[danceronice]

Also, advanced men tend to be more confident, which is more attractive than shy, putting them closer to any original goal of impressing/attracting women. (Which may go to the whole "I started dancing to meet women but they only want to dance with the advanced men" complaint--well, is it entirely their dancing, or are they not apologizing and cringing and acting terrified?)

[fascination]

for me, it is that advanced men...truly advanced men.... know that it is about the lead, not about the impressive steps...

[jennyisdancing]

In my dance school, advanced men can attend lower level class for free, when women outnumber men in a class. I know some advanced men attending many class in the same week just to try to meet as many women as possible. Advanced men are popular in beginner class because they are good leaders.

That's a really cool idea, I think more studios should offer this, it might help retain the ladies. I mentioned upthread that some women only want to learn basics anyway, but I do also think that some other ladies quit classes out of frustration because there aren't enough men. I know that has happened to me. In some classes, there were only one or two leaders for 5 or 6 women. You just don't get enough chance to practice when you have to wait out most of the rotation time without a partner.

[wooh]

When my instructor teaches a beginner class, she always charms her advanced guys into coming to the lesson to balance out the ratios. I actually learned some leading by going to beginner classes with him, I'd pay to be a guy, he'd be a guy for free. :)

[DL]

That's a really cool idea, I think more studios should offer this, it might help retain the ladies. I mentioned upthread that some women only want to learn basics anyway, but I do also think that some other ladies quit classes out of frustration because there aren't enough men. I know that has happened to me. In some classes, there were only one or two leaders for 5 or 6 women. You just don't get enough chance to practice when you have to wait out most of the rotation time without a partner.

Care must be taken not to let beginner guys get left out.

I quit going to certain beginner classes partly because I noticed that beginner leaders were getting less chance to practice with partners as an unintended consequence of my participation.

[jennyisdancing]

Care must be taken not to let beginner guys get left out.

I quit going to certain beginner classes partly because I noticed that beginner leaders were getting less chance to practice with partners as an unintended consequence of my participation.

I don't see how the beginner guys would be left out, or get less chance to participate. All I'm talking about is to add only enough guys so the gender balance is more even, not add an oversupply of leaders.

[DL]

I don't see how the beginner guys would be left out, or get less chance to participate. All I'm talking about is to add only enough guys so the gender balance is more even, not add an oversupply of leaders.

I've seen ladies step out for a rotation, leaving an available beginner guy without a partner, in order to watch how the teacher or another couple execute a figure.

While this is understandable when done occasionally, I've seen it become a pattern where a beginner leader repeatedly gets that treatment from every lady in the class, and each of those ladies always dances with the advanced fellow who knows exactly how to lead the figure.

[danceronice]

I've seen ladies step out for a rotation, leaving an available beginner guy without a partner, in order to watch how the teacher or another couple execute a figure.
.

That's more a teacher-control issue than the fault of the men. The alternative in the classes mentioned appears to be that women then go without partners when the advanced men show up, which isn't desirable either.

[DL]

That's more a teacher-control issue than the fault of the men. The alternative in the classes mentioned appears to be that women then go without partners when the advanced men show up, which isn't desirable either.

If the class is mostly ladies and they choose not ever to dance with the beginner guy -- it's true the teacher could exert some influence there but IMO it's limited. So sure, it's more teacher control than the fault of the men, but it's more the fault of the women than anything.

If I show up at a beginner class and the ladies in it totally desert a beginner to dance with me, I'll leave. I just see them treating him the way I hated to be treated when I was in his shoes, and why would I enable that? It sure isn't helping him learn how to dance -- and isn't the point here that ladies want more gents in dance classes? If all the ladies dance with all the men, I'll stay.

[jennyisdancing]

If the class is mostly ladies and they choose not ever to dance with the beginner guy -- it's true the teacher could exert some influence there but IMO it's limited. So sure, it's more teacher control than the fault of the men, but it's more the fault of the women than anything.

If I show up at a beginner class and the ladies in it totally desert a beginner to dance with me, I'll leave. I just see them treating him the way I hated to be treated when I was in his shoes, and why would I enable that? It sure isn't helping him learn how to dance -- and isn't the point here that ladies want more gents in dance classes? If all the ladies dance with all the men, I'll stay.

Again, while the ladies are at fault here, this issue can and should be totally managed by the teacher. Rotation is rotation, plain and simple. Every teacher in my area seems to be able to manage a class rotation pretty easily; this problem sounds very unusual to me. I've taken group classes in many different studios in my area, and not once ever seen a lady even try to wait out a rotation simply because she objects to dancing with a beginner guy.

Anyway, this is off topic IMO. The suggestions to have advanced guys take lower level classes for free, was basically assuming that the class rotation operates normally, which I think is a reasonable assumption. If you have people with bad manners, not observing the rotation policy, that's a whole other problem.

[opendoor]

You know I did revive this thread, because I have the strong and lasting belief, that there are more men around in Hamburg dancing than women (conc. Tango, Salsa, Swing). Last weekend I have been in Berlin (for the second time). And Berlin is said to be the vice capital of Tango behind BsAs. And indeed, finally I have been at dance parties with an apparent surplus of women.

Superb :p

[jennyisdancing]

You know I did revive this thread, because I have the strong and lasting belief, that there are more men around in Hamburg dancing than women (conc. Tango, Salsa, Swing). Last weekend I have been in Berlin (for the second time). And Berlin is said to be the vice capital of Tango behind BsAs. And indeed, finally I have been at dance parties with an apparent surplus of women.

Superb :p

:p Well, superb for you, anyway.

I stopped doing AT, simply because of the big surplus of women. I would go to a milonga and spend most of my time sitting, or go to a class and spend most of my time without a partner because there weren't enough leaders in the rotation. I didn't get enough dance time to make it worth my while, and couldn't find a regular practice partner either.

Similar situation for ballroom dance in my area; I love ballroom but going to dances is mostly a waste of time, sadly, due to lack of available leaders. Therefore, I've stuck mainly with WCS and salsa now, because at least the gender balance is a little closer to being even; there is still a surplus of followers but not as much as AT and ballroom.

I think also that AT and ballroom tend to attract more couples who mingle less - those dance forms are seen as more "romantic" or "date night" activities, whereas WCS is a "fun and friends" atmosphere and salsa is more of a "club scene" feel.

[opendoor]

oh, that would mean that tango is more kind of an elderly and wcs is more kind of a young dance, as well?

[jennyisdancing]

oh, that would mean that tango is more kind of an elderly and wcs is more kind of a young dance, as well?

I wouldn't want to say "elderly". On average, though, I'd say that tango gets an older crowd, though I see a few younger dancers here and there. WCS gets a very wide range of ages - everywhere from teenage to over 65.

[Warren J. Dew]

oh, that would mean that tango is more kind of an elderly and wcs is more kind of a young dance, as well?

Either that, or west coast swing is for elderly singles.

[jennyisdancing]

Either that, or west coast swing is for elderly singles.
;)
I assume you're joking here, but anyway, I wouldn't say there's huge singles contingent among older WCS dancers. Probably about half come as couples.

The difference is that most WCS couples mingle much more than tango or ballroom couples, on average. So a WCS class or dance is more likely to have some men available to dance with the single ladies. It's really rare to see a WCS couple dancing exclusively or mostly with each other, whereas that seems to happen often in ballroom or AT.

[tanya_the_dancer]

do you live in a town or in the countryside?

Small university town (about 100K)

[Warren J. Dew]

;)
I assume you're joking here, but anyway, I wouldn't say there's huge singles contingent among older WCS dancers. Probably about half come as couples.

Mostly I was pointing out that mingling or being single wasn't the same as being young. 50% singles among the older folks is still pretty substantial.

It is true, though, that around here, the west coast swing folks, while not necessarily "elderly", tend to be older than the tangueros by a decade or so. Both are substantially older than most of the ballroom crowd or the salsa crowd, though ballroom has a pretty big age range.

Your assessment of how much mixing each community has is consistent with what I've observed.

[jennyisdancing]

Mostly I was pointing out that mingling or being single wasn't the same as being young. 50% singles among the older folks is still pretty substantial.

It is true, though, that around here, the west coast swing folks, while not necessarily "elderly", tend to be older than the tangueros by a decade or so. Both are substantially older than most of the ballroom crowd or the salsa crowd, though ballroom has a pretty big age range.

Your assessment of how much mixing each community has is consistent with what I've observed.

Interesting...in my area, average ages break down this way (ranked oldest to youngest)

Ballroom
Argentine Tango
West Coast Swing
Salsa
Lindy

So, with ballroom and AT, you have a combination of older average age, plus demographically fewer men in that age group to begin with, plus the perception that ballroom and AT are more "couples" type of dances, thus the perfect storm for a big surplus of followers.

On the other end, salsa and Lindy get a lot of young people, and more men, but sometimes the younger and older dancers don't mix very much. WCS overall seems to get a good balance of age range, demographics and social interaction. Yet it is probably the least known and least popular of the dance forms I listed. :(

[Warren J. Dew]

I note that the poll results show slightly more male dancers. I wonder how to reconcile that with the general perception that there are more women dancing.

[Dots]

I note that the poll results show slightly more male dancers. I wonder how to reconcile that with the general perception that there are more women dancing.

The poll reflects those who are dancers, have a computer, have an internet connection and found the forum ;)

[opendoor]

I note that the poll results show slightly more male dancers. I wonder how to reconcile that with the general perception that there are more women dancing.

Still find that it is the other way round: more men (exception: Berlin AT scene) :(

[opendoor]

...in my area, average ages break down this way (ranked oldest to youngest)

Ballroom
Argentine Tango
West Coast Swing
Salsa
Lindy

Apart from the fact that there is no namable WCS scene in Hamburg, I come to this age ranking (oldest to youngest):

DiscoFox (=kind of Hustle)
TA
BR
Salsa
Lindy

But, the tango scene is splitted: within the independent milonga scene (with the surplus of men) singles prevail. The class and studio-bound scene is much younger, and couples prevail. DiscoFox is the most "elderly" dance because besides the Hustle-orientated wing there is a fluent passage to a more country and folk like dancing on the other hand, comparable to what I believe your american 2step serves for.

[TangoTricia]

Hamburg sounds great :-) It also helps that I grew up there, some <ahem> years ago. How would I best track AT events there, is there an event calendar?

[opendoor]

better pm me if you are around. In this respect the town is yet provicially.

one is http://www.tangotanzen.com/database/h_milongaplan.asp

another one http://www.vivaeltango.de/hhkal2.php

[rbazsz]

Here in the Phoenix area I have never been to ballroom dance lessons where there were more women than men. My observation covers different days of the week and different studios. Once the dances begin there are plenty of men but the women tend to only dance with the men who are good leads.

At certain night clubs there are definitely women waiting around looking to dance but not the ballrooms.

It's important to note that I have only been taking lessons for a couple of months so things may have been different in the past.

So, I think the more accurate statement is that there is a shortage of men that women want to dance with because there most men don't meet their expectations of being good leads.

[fascination]

I don't see that...I generally accept from anyone who asks as i think is the case for most women

[jennyisdancing]

I don't see that...I generally accept from anyone who asks as i think is the case for most women

Agreed....and for what it's worth, sure, there are few (not most) women who will only dance with excellent partners...but I have equally seen this with some of the men. I know of a couple venues where there is a decent number of men, but some of those men choose to sit around most of the time waiting to dance with the top two or three ladies, and they won't ask beginner or intermediate ladies to dance. Not surprisingly, those places have an unfriendly atmosphere and I tend to avoid them.

By contrast, one of my local venues is very friendly. There were a few beginners and they were warmly welcomed by the hosts, and some of the experienced folks asked them to dance. That was so nice. :D

[TangoRocks]

I note that the poll results show slightly more male dancers. I wonder how to reconcile that with the general perception that there are more women dancing.

I wasn't sure how to vote, because I have seen this happen:

Newcomer and lower bronze levels, up to Associate: More Women
Higher bronze levels/Full Bronze: More Men
Silver: More Women

At first, most ladies are happy to dance and are enthusiastic, and most gentlemen (with obvious exceptions, most of whom are probably on DF) are reluctant or have to be dragged onto the dance floor by the selfsame enthusiastic ladies.

Once the initial shine has been lost and dancing becomes "too much work" (ie, posture, style, technique, advanced footwork, alignments, etc etc.) the female population gets thinned out by those ladies who have learned enough to survive on the social floor but not willing to put in the extra time and effort to get better. At the same stage, the males who have survived until then are the ones that have found that they like dancing and are gung-ho about getting better technique and complex movements that are challenging to them. Also those are the gentlemen who have gotten over their self-confidence issues which keep a lot of beginner males off the dance floor in the first place (self-confidence with respect to dancing, not in general; although dancing does help bolster self-confidence off the dance floor in my experience)

I really don't have a good explanation on why the ratio reverses to women at the silver level (again, in my experience) but I think it might be due to the fact that at Silver and above, it's mostly competition time, and ladies are more into pro-am competitions than are the gentlemen--I know multiple silver ladies who compete pro-am at my studio, and not a single gentleman who does.

Of course, YMMV :)

[jennyisdancing]

I really don't have a good explanation on why the ratio reverses to women at the silver level (again, in my experience) but I think it might be due to the fact that at Silver and above, it's mostly competition time, and ladies are more into pro-am competitions than are the gentlemen--I know multiple silver ladies who compete pro-am at my studio, and not a single gentleman who does.

Of course, YMMV :)

Well, I think that goes back to the idea that the dance can only be as good as the leader, right? I mean, an amateur female can more easily rise to a higher level of difficulty or do fancier moves, because she has a pro who leading her. Whereas an amateur man has more challenge - and unlike DWTS, when you're in a real ballroom comp, you can't have a pro lady dancing circles around her male partner who just stands there. :p

[danceronice]

Point: the poll is not of dancers. It is of dancers who log into DanceForums and check this particular forum and opt to vote in the poll. Possibly not a generally representative sample.

[DL]

Well, I think that goes back to the idea that the dance can only be as good as the leader, right?

Based on my own experience as a leader, I don't think that idea is correct. Each pairing (each dance even) is unique, and could turn out a number of different ways based on many influences including but certainly not strictly limited to the dance skill of either partner (let alone the skill of the leader alone).

[Joe]

Agreed....and for what it's worth, sure, there are few (not most) women who will only dance with excellent partners...but I have equally seen this with some of the men. I know of a couple venues where there is a decent number of men, but some of those men choose to sit around most of the time waiting to dance with the top two or three ladies, and they won't ask beginner or intermediate ladies to dance.
What is the skill level distribution of these men you refer to?

[Peaches]

Does it matter?

[opendoor]

the poll is .. of dancers who log into DanceForums and check this particular forum...

was it possible to mirror this thread on top of all sub-forums?

[jennyisdancing]

Does it matter?

I don't think it matters but I would say it's primarily the intermediate level guys. You know...the ones who have learned some fancy moves and want to show them off. They aren't 100 percent confident they can lead the pattern with a fellow intermediate dancer, so they choose the advanced ladies. When I dance with these guys, I always feel like it's a test. :rolleyes:

[Sagitta]

When I dance with one particular person she does act as if it is a test. If I happen to do something that she hasn't seen before she reacts one way or the other based on how well she feels she has done it. I never intend it to be that way. I don't practice moves on her... It amuses me...actually that she reacts the way she does.

[Sagitta]

I would prefer there to be fewer males then females. Females often will partner up and dance so that works out, whereas males have this male-male partner dancing phobia. :-(

[jennyisdancing]

I would prefer there to be fewer males then females. Females often will partner up and dance so that works out, whereas males have this male-male partner dancing phobia. :-(

Not in West Coast Swing....:)

[Steve Pastor]

Perhaps not where you are. The places where I dance West Coast do not have male/male partnerships. Perhaps at the "Westie" West Coast Swing places in Portland.
More and more I accept the fact that West Coast is divided into two groups: the "Westie" branch, and the country western branch. And I think it's been that way probably from the very beginning days.

[ldavila]

My observations of dance classes and events here in Adelaide (South Australia):

There are definitely more women than men in all group dance classes (be it ballroom, salsa, WCS etc) and in all age groups. Well at least for classes that rotate partners - if they don't rotate then there are still more women than men but the ladies end up giving up due to not having a partner and don't come back.

With the social dance events (balls, latin nights, etc), it is still more women than men, but only slightly, as women without dance partners do not end up going out to social dances as much, as (at least here) not that many men ask other ladies' to dance (some of us do, but it is not the norm).

Wish I knew the answer to this... as I know how much fun it can be, and there is a lot of demand for male dance partners, but I just can't manage to convince my friends to take it up. Gotta be a guy thing. :confused:

Cheers,
Laz.

[ann_a]

I'm ballroom dancer and in our group more women than men. And such situation in all group dance classes. As for me men think dance is a woman deal.

[jennyisdancing]

Perhaps not where you are. The places where I dance West Coast do not have male/male partnerships. Perhaps at the "Westie" West Coast Swing places in Portland.
More and more I accept the fact that West Coast is divided into two groups: the "Westie" branch, and the country western branch. And I think it's been that way probably from the very beginning days.

I'm not saying there are male/male competition partnerships. But I do see male/male and female/female dancing at WCS socials. I've danced with female leaders and I know of guys (straight, by the way) who will dance as followers with another guy on occasion. No big deal.

Other than that, yeah, sadly among the general population there is still an enormous stigma against men dancing. Seems to be just in more recent generations though. People I know who are over 60, they grew up with partner dancing. It used to be considered part of one's expected social skills to know at least a bit of swing dance and a basic box step.

[Steve Pastor]

Glad I'm not OVER 60! But, yeah, I had a few partner dance lessons in grade school, and a folk dance class as a PE credit. Not sure why I took dance, but team sports are just not my thing. I think there was a class aspect to the dance as basic social skill thing. That was certainly true for coutiers in the Renaisscance. Just watched a dvd from Dance Through Time, and they had some pretty intricate stuff. I know one guy is IS over 60, and his parents had him take dance lessons, but also how to handle a gun.

Last Wednesday at the C&W place I'm going for West Coast Swing lessons there were WAY more men than women. I saw this at AT venues, too. I think women do more family things around the holidays, because they sure don't come out like the guys do during those times.

[jennyisdancing]

Glad I'm not OVER 60! But, yeah, I had a few partner dance lessons in grade school, and a folk dance class as a PE credit. Not sure why I took dance, but team sports are just not my thing. I think there was a class aspect to the dance as basic social skill thing. That was certainly true for coutiers in the Renaisscance. Just watched a dvd from Dance Through Time, and they had some pretty intricate stuff. I know one guy is IS over 60, and his parents had him take dance lessons, but also how to handle a gun.

Last Wednesday at the C&W place I'm going for West Coast Swing lessons there were WAY more men than women. I saw this at AT venues, too. I think women do more family things around the holidays, because they sure don't come out like the guys do during those times.

That's my theory, too. Went to a couple of WCS dances last week, and there was an even balance or a slight surplus of guys, compared to the usual surplus of women. It was awesome. :D
I also like to go dancing on a rainy night...fewer women like to travel in bad weather.

[Joe]

That's my theory, too. Went to a couple of WCS dances last week, and there was an even balance or a slight surplus of guys, compared to the usual surplus of women. It was awesome. :D
I also like to go dancing on a rainy night...fewer women like to travel in bad weather.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGLZqDXau98 ?

[MidwestDancingGuy]

:uplaugh:

[jennyisdancing]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGLZqDXau98 ?

:p:grin:

It's truer than you realize...one of my local dance studios, has on occasion, posted a message on its website entitled "it's raining men", where they mentioned the surplus of men on rainy nights and encouraging more women to come out then.

[Lioness]

My observations of dance classes and events here in Adelaide (South Australia):

There are definitely more women than men in all group dance classes (be it ballroom, salsa, WCS etc) and in all age groups. Well at least for classes that rotate partners - if they don't rotate then there are still more women than men but the ladies end up giving up due to not having a partner and don't come back.

With the social dance events (balls, latin nights, etc), it is still more women than men, but only slightly, as women without dance partners do not end up going out to social dances as much, as (at least here) not that many men ask other ladies' to dance (some of us do, but it is not the norm).

Wish I knew the answer to this... as I know how much fun it can be, and there is a lot of demand for male dance partners, but I just can't manage to convince my friends to take it up. Gotta be a guy thing. :confused:

Cheers,
Laz.

This lines up pretty exactly with what I've found.
I'm slowly recruiting more guys, but a lot are reluctant.

At my studio, there are lots more women...they often dance with each other if no guys ask.
There are a couple of guys around who dance by themselves, to practise. I guess they don't like dancing with the local ladies...fair enough...the local ladies don't really like dancing with them either.

At our socials, it tends to be pretty much 45/55 men/women. Most people come with a partner (And those with partners don't often ask others to dance). There are a pool of maybe 10-15 singles, about 2/3 women.

[TangoRocks]

Not in West Coast Swing....:)

...nor in the swing/lindy hop scene where I live; male/male dancing has been common enough not to raise any eyebrows there, except, maybe, for those who are extremely new to the scene. Oh, and most, if not all of these are straight guys who normally dance with the ladies.

I also recall reading that back in the day, male-male dancing was a de facto training tool for Argentine Tango dancers, owing to the insufficiency of female partners to practice with to learn the dance.

[TangoRocks]

:p:grin:

It's truer than you realize...one of my local dance studios, has on occasion, posted a message on its website entitled "it's raining men", where they mentioned the surplus of men on rainy nights and encouraging more women to come out then.

I have observed the same phenomenon, during bad weather--I was at one group class where we had ONE couple and 5 guys, and this was a non-rotating couple so we actually had to dance with the male instructor :) Granted, it was Hustle, so totally doable, although I refused to dance with him when the sound system started playing Y.M.C.A. :bouncy:

[waltzgirl]

I love it when an excess of guys makes a male teacher dance as a follower. The guys get such good feedback on their leading!

[opendoor]

Remember? I posted it some weeks ago, but I still cannot get rid of the suspicion that there is still a surplus of men in the tango scene.

[wiseman]

I have observed the same phenomenon, during bad weather--I was at one group class where we had ONE couple and 5 guys, and this was a non-rotating couple so we actually had to dance with the male instructor :) Granted, it was Hustle, so totally doable, although I refused to dance with him when the sound system started playing Y.M.C.A. :bouncy:

Ah! That has to be true. A couple of months ago, on a Wednesday evening, it was raining badly and it was lightning outside. I decided not to go to dance class that day because the weather was just terrible. The next time I went to class, I asked a couple of people if they went to the class that Wednesday. They said, yes, but there were like 10 men and 4 girls, lol. I couldn’t believe what I heard.

[jennyisdancing]

Ah! That has to be true. A couple of months ago, on a Wednesday evening, it was raining badly and it was lightning outside. I decided not to go to dance class that day because the weather was just terrible. The next time I went to class, I asked a couple of people if they went to the class that Wednesday. They said, yes, but there were like 10 men and 4 girls, lol. I couldn’t believe what I heard.

I don't know why a little rain (or even a lot) scares so many ladies away. Not saying I enjoy traveling in bad weather, but hey, I've got umbrellas and anti-lock brakes so I think I can handle it. And if that means I get more men to dance with, I'm all for that. :)

[Steve Pastor]

In the film "Tango Bar" one of the lead characters states that the men practiced with each other so that they could dance with the women.
Although I've followed in lessons and in practicas (a bit), you don't see men dancing with men at milongas.

In the US...
In frontier days men danced with each other when women were not available. According to an early settler in Texas, "The gentle sex were few in number at the dance... Two men had to dance together to make a set." Another account states that "due to the scarcity of young women, a number of young bachelors who were either smooth shaven or wore polished shoes were designated as ladies." There were also "stag" dances with no women. "Heifer branded" men, those dancing the woman's role, wore handkerchiefs tied around one arm.[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country-western_dance#cite_note-13) At other times men dancing the role of the woman wore aprons.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country-western_dance#cite_note-14) Miners in the California Gold Rush (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Gold_Rush) danced with one another if ladies were not available.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country-western_dance#cite_note-15)

Once there were enough women to go around, this practice ceased to exist, and I have yet to hear anyone bring it up in a CW setting.

[Joe]

I don't know why a little rain (or even a lot) scares so many ladies away. Not saying I enjoy traveling in bad weather, but hey, I've got umbrellas and anti-lock brakes so I think I can handle it. And if that means I get more men to dance with, I'm all for that. :)
I think, in general, that women do not like to drive in bad weather. Whether it's from having less experience, or less training, or less courage, or more sense than men, I cannot say. But it is something I have observed in women I am acquainted with.

[danceronice]

In my case, it's just crap night vision, or rather not being able to adjust quickly, and being BLINDED BY OTHER DRIVERS WHO REFUSE TO TURN OFF THEIR HIGH BEAMS WHEN FOLLOWING CLOSELY OR ONCOMING....

(Sorry, pet peeve.)

[Warren J. Dew]

I think, in general, that women do not like to drive in bad weather. Whether it's from having less experience, or less training, or less courage, or more sense than men, I cannot say. But it is something I have observed in women I am acquainted with.

I always assumed that ballroom was a lower priority for them. The one studio I know of where this phenomenon didn't occur was the old Joe Jenkins dance studio - his pro-ams always showed up, as did the couples that danced there; they took their dancing seriously. But if you've observed it with respect to other activities, I'd vote for less courage or more sense.

In my case, it's just crap night vision, or rather not being able to adjust quickly, and being BLINDED BY OTHER DRIVERS WHO REFUSE TO TURN OFF THEIR HIGH BEAMS WHEN FOLLOWING CLOSELY OR ONCOMING....

(Sorry, pet peeve.)

That's another possibility. My wife used to complain of bad night vision, especially in the rain, before she improved her diet for pregnancy.

[jennyisdancing]

I always assumed that ballroom was a lower priority for them. The one studio I know of where this phenomenon didn't occur was the old Joe Jenkins dance studio - his pro-ams always showed up, as did the couples that danced there; they took their dancing seriously. But if you've observed it with respect to other activities, I'd vote for less courage or more sense.


That's another possibility. My wife used to complain of bad night vision, especially in the rain, before she improved her diet for pregnancy.

Well, priorities and night vision might be issues...but honestly, I see the same thing with other activities, even in the daytime. I find it's hard to get other women to come out and do anything on a rainy day, even though the activity itself is indoors.

I had arranged an outing one afternoon with several friends to visit a museum exhibit. Admission was free, so cost wouldn't have been an issue, and we planned the event way in advance, so people had it on their schedules. It turned out to be drizzling (not heavily raining) that day, so at most, the rain was just a slight inconvenience, there was no flooding or anything like that. If anything, I think a drizzly afternoon is a perfect time for a museum visit, but only one of my friends showed up - and I should point out she had taken public transit, so she wasn't driving. :rolleyes:

[DerekWeb]

My guess is that they don't want to get their hair wet!

[jennyisdancing]

My guess is that they don't want to get their hair wet!

You're probably right....guess they never heard of those cool devices called umbrellas. ;)

[wiseman]

You're probably right....guess they never heard of those cool devices called umbrellas. ;)

When it rains extremely hard and it's windy, umbrellas are as good as nothing.

[jennyisdancing]

When it rains extremely hard and it's windy, umbrellas are as good as nothing.

Point taken...but that doesn't happen often. Seriously, I was talking about how some women won't even travel in a drizzle! Let them stay home while I have more leaders to choose from. ;)

[rbazsz]

This week I went to a group lesson at an upscale retirement community. I expected there would be too many women and they would be old -- both situations that I wouldn't mind. I have had positive experiences dancing with women 60+ because they seem to be more tolerant about my lack of skills.

It seemed to be a slam dunk that women would show up considering there were two lessons -- one was the waltz and the other west coast swing. Much to my shock only 5 men showed up and NO WOMEN! I saw a lot of women playing cards in other rooms so it wasn't that they weren't in the area.

Eventually a couple who didn't want to share came, and another couple with a man (very good dancer) who graciously sat down most of the time so his lady partner could be shared. Fortunately the instructor was a woman -- and she was kept very busy with all of us guys.

The weather was clear skies and at about 7 pm it was about 65 degrees outside. The ballroom was first class all the way. I thought senior ladies love to dance but maybe not in Arizona. Perhaps the weather was too cold or maybe the bright stars scared them away.

[Ray Sison]

At our studio, in general, it seems like there are more females...

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I know one studio that has a gentlemen discount on Friday nights and a ladies discount on Saturday nights. Hmmm... ;)