The dreaded heel toe, heel toe

[lynn]

OK, my teacher's on vacation for 3 weeks but he has left me a major assignment which he told me to work on - the dreaded heel toe/weight transfer :cry: . I didn't realize I had so many problems until yesterday when I tried to figure out what exactly happens between steps, this is what I figured out so far for a basic backward step:

1.) Weight is on the ball of the foot
2.) Extend back leg to as far as possible
3.) Shift weight to the heel, push out the heel
4.) Commit weight to the back foot

Here are my questions:
1.) When are toe releases required? My feeling is you don't have toe releases on every step. How do ladies handle the toe releases while wearing shoes with heels? I can do them fine with flat shoes but I feel that I really need to dig in to the ground with my heels to have a proper toe release when I'm wearing heels.

2.) Does the heel toe weight transfer happen with every step? It feels awfully like a lot of things are happening during a very short amount of time. Why can't just step with a flat foot and ignore the whole thing?

3.) I'm guessing tango works a little different that the commitment of weight to the moving foot happens later than the other dances (as to how late, i have no idea....)

[Chris Stratton]

OK, my teacher's on vacation for 3 weeks but he has left me a major assignment which he told me to work on - the dreaded heel toe/weight transfer :cry: . I didn't realize I had so many problems until yesterday when I tried to figure out what exactly happens between steps, this is what I figured out so far for a basic backward step:

1.) Weight is on the ball of the foot
2.) Extend back leg to as far as possible
3.) Shift weight to the heel, push out the heel
4.) Commit weight to the back foot



Ideally 2 & 3 would occur in the opposite order than listed.

Early backwards extension, occuring while weight is still forward in the standing foot, should appear as the shin and foot pointing backward primarily from below the knee. Real leg division, visible as substantial separation of the knees, should occur only as the weight is being supported out of the heel.

One reason this may not always be taught is that it's a rather demanding trick to ride the back edge of a rolling heel without allowing your body to incline backwards as a whole. Control of the action is fairly close to trying to balance stationary and stand tall on the back edge of the heel with the toe raised - though in actuality you would never artifically raise the toe like that - it would happen more naturally as you left the foot.


Here are my questions:
1.) When are toe releases required? My feeling is you don't have toe releases on every step.


Anytime a TH step is followed by a backwards step. For example, the first step of a feather is followed by another back step, so it is departed via a toe release. The first step of a waltz natural is followed by a side step, so it is departed instead by a toe drag. But the prep step in waltz is followed by a backwards step 1, so it is departed via a toe release. Outside of tango the rule is the same for either role (the situations in foxtrot where the man does not have a toe release when the lady dancing a similar action would are toe-only steps for man, but TH for lady).


How do ladies handle the toe releases while wearing shoes with heels? I can do them fine with flat shoes but I feel that I really need to dig in to the ground with my heels to have a proper toe release when I'm wearing heels.

Good standard shoes are some of the most stable heels made, however it still appears to take a lot of ankle strength and practice.


2.) Does the heel toe weight transfer happen with every step? It feels awfully like a lot of things are happening during a very short amount of time.

It happens on every step with more than one component to it's listed footwork. A step given as "T" only has a tiny (but important) weight shift within the toe region of the foot. But a step given as TH or HT has a weight shift from one end of the foot to the other.

Why can't just step with a flat foot and ignore the whole thing?


This would create a heavy, jerky motion that would be hard to match with a partner. Wheels are probably the smoothest way to move - rolling through our feet essentially means using them as wheels for part of each step.


3.) I'm guessing tango works a little different that the commitment of weight to the moving foot happens later than the other dances (as to how late, i have no idea....)

I wouldn't say the commitment of weight to the moving foot happens later, but rather that the progress of weight through the standing foot happens later. While in the swing dances we try to keep the body in constant smooth motion that blends the steps, in tango we allow the legs to move ahead of a more stationary body, and then shift the body precisely to, but not beyond a stable position over the arriving foot. This gives tango a more staccato, one step at a time character.

[Brush Tap]

I'll add a few more details that I hope will be helpful... working from the steps you listed and reordering them as Chris wisely suggested:

1.) Weight is on the ball of the foot
2.) Shift weight to the heel, push out the heel
3.) Extend back leg to as far as possible
4.) Commit weight to the back foot

You'll want to make sure that you as you extend the back leg in step #3, you roll through the foot and keep the toe in contact with the floor, pressing into the floor for the entire time it is travelling back. As it extends back to the farthest reach, you should release your toe. Releasing the toe will enable you to keep moving. In between steps 3 and 4, you will reach a point where your weight is evenly distributed between the front leg and back leg, and you will be balanced between the toe of your back leg and the heel of your front leg. [It may help you to practice taking steps very slowly and stopping periodically to check your balance at the various points.] To continue moving beyond that point, you'll want to make sure to squeeze your legs together, using the standing leg (now the back leg, the one to which you have just transferred the weight) to pull the front leg backwards. Here's an important note on "finishing" the step (and this will take lots of practice): Do not completely lower the heel of your back leg until the other leg is completely underneath you. You can practice this too slowly, drawing in the front leg while slowly and smoothly and gradually lowering the back heel, making sure that the heel does not reach the floor completely until the front leg is collected.

Good luck!

[lynn]

OK, my teacher's on vacation for 3 weeks but he has left me a major assignment which he told me to work on - the dreaded heel toe/weight transfer :cry: . I didn't realize I had so many problems until yesterday when I tried to figure out what exactly happens between steps, this is what I figured out so far for a basic backward step:

1.) Weight is on the ball of the foot
2.) Extend back leg to as far as possible
3.) Shift weight to the heel, push out the heel
4.) Commit weight to the back foot



Ideally 2 & 3 would occur in the opposite order than listed.

Early backwards extension, occuring while weight is still forward in the standing foot, should appear as the shin and foot pointing backward primarily from below the knee. Real leg division, visible as substantial separation of the knees, should occur only as the weight is being supported out of the heel.

One reason this may not always be taught is that it's a rather demanding trick to ride the back edge of a rolling heel without allowing your body to incline backwards as a whole. Control of the action is fairly close to trying to balance stationary and stand tall on the back edge of the heel with the toe raised - though in actuality you would never artifically raise the toe like that - it would happen more naturally as you left the foot.


I think instead of having #2 as extending the foot, I was actually thinking more along the line of a prep step or a neutral position perhaps a bit like the early backward extension you described. I'm told that this kind of prep steps should be done for every sequence so 1) the guy doesn't step on you and 2) sets you up for the next step. I can see how it is helpful if the following step is a backward step but it doesn't make much sense if the next step is a forward one.

[Chris Stratton]

I've heard two theories of the between the legs action.

In one, the push off the departing leg, particularly the act of rolling through the foot, is sufficient that it will cause you to drift fully onto the arriving foot without the need for any further action, though a small amount might be used to speed arrival.

In the other, the feet divide enough in comparison to the departing push that you would actually get stuck between your feet if you did not use the thighs to actively pull yourself onto the arriving foot. (There's also a variation of this where the full pushoff of the departing foot occurs only after weight is split between the feet, instead of while the body is in flight and yet to have any substantial weight on the moving foot)

At the moment, I generally lean more towards the first method, as I feel that emphasizing the departing leg action makes for a smoother transition, while overstepping to the point where you need to pull to arrive tends to force the bodies apart anyway. With neither sufficient foot usage nor overstepping only limited travel will result, but if it's smooth and unstressed that may not be so bad for social dancing. For competition purposes, full use of the departing foot would produce the maximum non-distorting travel, though the timing will be slightly different from the "pull-arrival" method. I want to use all the muscle actions that add energy and thus speed to the motion before I've placed my moving foot, so that the drifting phase can result in maximum travel of body and free foot together, while I feel that accelerating after the foot is placed is a sort of pointless expenditure of energy that will require an extreme of rise to recover. Converting energy back and forth between speed and rise is the essence of the swing dances, but I see little point in converting more than is actually aiding your travel, as this results in an overworked look kind of like running in place.

------

Not exactly dancing, but when I want to demonstrate the role of foot action in the standard walk, I show how it's possible with practice to move quite a bit without separating the knees at all. The comparison between doing this rather extreme version barefoot and in shoes also demonstrates how heel height actually aides the backwards action, when it does not exceed the ability of the ankles to stabalize you.

[Chris Stratton]

I think instead of having #2 as extending the foot, I was actually thinking more along the line of a prep step or a neutral position perhaps a bit like the early backward extension you described. I'm told that this kind of prep steps should be done for every sequence so 1) the guy doesn't step on you and 2) sets you up for the next step. I can see how it is helpful if the following step is a backward step but it doesn't make much sense if the next step is a forward one.

Yes, the neutral position before moving backwards is knees close (but not closed), free foot already back a bit, while the neutral position to move forwards is feet more or less together.

But how to know which one to use when following?

Obviously these aren't directionally neutral positions. The only actual unbiased neutral point in a foot closure action occurs while rise is still present and the feet are together. Once lowering commences, a decision about which direction the following step will take should have already been made and communicated as a bias in the lowering action. To my way of thinking, once you are on the way down you already have a directional impetus, and also a target time for the next step.

Reversing direction in a series of foot passing actions while down is challenging in that the energy has to be sent somewhere (either up in rise or further down in compression) but the foot positions do work out. Since the passing of the feet in a forwards action occurs later than in a backwards action, you can flip the direction switch on the movie projector and the foot that was a little late in closing forwards is now doing the small early preparation back.

[lynn]

I'll add a few more details that I hope will be helpful... working from the steps you listed and reordering them as Chris wisely suggested:

1.) Weight is on the ball of the foot
2.) Shift weight to the heel, push out the heel
3.) Extend back leg to as far as possible
4.) Commit weight to the back foot

You'll want to make sure that you as you extend the back leg in step #3, you roll through the foot and keep the toe in contact with the floor, pressing into the floor for the entire time it is travelling back....


I have a question about this. I have always thought the rolling action is one where the toe is not pressed to the ground so when you're finally rolling off the heel, the momentum will carry you through to the back leg without having to do the finishing step you described.

[Brush Tap]

If you really think about it, there are several different instances that one might describe as rolling, including the finishing/lowering part of the step. I'm not sure I understand what you are describing, though. From how I interpret the way that you are describing it, without controlled and gradual lowering of the back heel, your heel will just clomp down, which wouldn't result in very smooth dancing.

The whole idea of rolling through the feet and using a push/pull action between the legs is aimed at producing a smooth, free, flowing movement that is able to travel long distances across the floor with power. Also- keep in mind that the action doesn't have to be 100% push or 100% pull; these can be modified and adjusted depending on where you are in the process of the step- maybe at a certain point in the step, it would be more like 80% and 20% or even 50% and 50%, if that makes any sense.

[Chris Stratton]

The back heel should lower smoothly, but it must not lower too late or the primary benefit of lowering it will be lost. Lowering the heel tends to pull the hip back, so we have to evaluate the various sorts of steps to decide when that is desireable.

Going into step one, we want to be sure that the backwards person does not fall into the step from the hip faster than their forward partner can arrive over his or her foot. Therefore, we want to be carefully to control the speed at which the heel lowers when arriving on step one.

In contrast, when lowering towards step three, the risk is of letting the shoulders fall behind the foot. Here the rearward hip projection of a timely heel lowering helps keep the body vertical and avoid getting trapped under the forward partner. This is especially true when setting up for or executing a step three partner outside action, so timely lowering of the lady's heel is important in both steps two and three of the feather.

In terms of the effortfull vs effortless arrivival onto the moving foot, it's worth considering that controlling the heel lowering is from the perspective of the horizontal motion a form of braking rather than a form of acceleration. That's not to say that you can't control the heel lowering while squeezing the thighs to pull onto the foot, just that the actions would be done for different reasons and would not aid each other.

[lynn]

The rolling action I was thinking about is between step 1 & 3, where you start with your weight on the ball of your foot and shifting it back to the heel. What I had difficulty with when I tried the steps you've described is basically keeping the toes down while I roll through the foot (I could very well mis-interpreted what you meant though). In essence, wouldn't you have a flat foot if you keep the toes in contact with the floor while the rolling action takes place?

[Chris Stratton]

The rolling action I was thinking about is between step 1 & 3, where you start with your weight on the ball of your foot and shifting it back to the heel. What I had difficulty with when I tried the steps you've described is basically keeping the toes down while I roll through the foot (I could very well mis-interpreted what you meant though). In essence, wouldn't you have a flat foot if you keep the toes in contact with the floor while the rolling action takes place?

I think if you put enough attention into where your weight is in your standing foot and how fast it is moving, seperation between the unweighted part of the foot and the floor will take care of itself without conscious effort. You don't want to hold the toes down, and you don't want to artificially raise them either.

[lynn]

Chris, I think what you're describing sounds like what my teacher had told me.

The rolling action should be sort of a natural rocking motion. It resembles how we walk where the weight shifts naturally from heel toe/toe heel with no emphasis on keeping toes on the floor or toe raises, they just occur by themselves.

One exercise I've been doing is to walk as I normally would but really slow down so I can see where the weight transition is and how the so called "rolling through the heel" occurs.

[Chris Stratton]

Yes, the walking action of high level standard dancing is really not very different in basic methods from what one normally does in walking down the street in stable shoes. But there are two big catches:

1) You have to do it with another body much closer to you than normal. This doesn't provide all that much problem if you literally change nothing from an efficient ordinary walk, but it can provide an expectation of a problem that will prompt you to make counterproductive changes to how you move.

2) Sooner or later you probably will be encouraged to use more leg division than you would in walking down the street. The catch is that problems will arrise if you break the proportions of walking by dividing your legs earlier in relation to the foot action, or to a degree out of proportion to the amount of foot action. Sometimes these problems are not obvious until you put another body there to try to coordinate with.

So the key is to understand normal walking, and then to expand upon it in a balanced way, making sure improvements in foot action keep up with (and ideally precede) adoption of increased leg division. The most obvious downfall is to put too much effort into exaggerated movements, and thus loose the easy and coordinated fundamental nature of walking.

[lynn]

Chris, do you mind explaining what you mean by leg division?

Thanks.

[Chris Stratton]

Leg division is the phase in a step where the legs separate, especially above the knees.

[lynn]

Here's a question that might not be related to this topic, what happens if there's a side step? Should I approach it with heel first/toe first/flat foot? The closest example I can think of is perhaps like a hesitation step (in Smooth) from Waltz where you're basically shifting weight from side to side.

[Brush Tap]

Side steps are usually toe first, except for maybe in tango where they can be more or less flat.

[Joe]

Ideally 2 & 3 would occur in the opposite order than listed.
I disagree. I feel the weight should remain forward on the toe whilst releasing the moving foot. There is a point where the weight rolls onto the heel of the standing foot, but it's not until the toe of the moving foot stops.

This doesn't mean that you should stay (elevated) on your toe while you release--you do lower, but the weight remains forward.

[Katarzyna]

Ideally 2 & 3 would occur in the opposite order than listed.
I disagree. I feel the weight should remain forward on the toe whilst releasing the moving foot. There is a point where the weight rolls onto the heel of the standing foot, but it's not until the toe of the moving foot stops.

This doesn't mean that you should stay (elevated) on your toe while you release--you do lower, but the weight remains forward.

I totally agree with Joe... That gives the person moving back so much more balance and support...

[lynn]

Ideally 2 & 3 would occur in the opposite order than listed.
I disagree. I feel the weight should remain forward on the toe whilst releasing the moving foot. There is a point where the weight rolls onto the heel of the standing foot, but it's not until the toe of the moving foot stops.

This doesn't mean that you should stay (elevated) on your toe while you release--you do lower, but the weight remains forward.

This is interesting, I find I have more problem maintaining my weight on my toe than on the heels when stretching out my other leg, possibly because I"m wearing high heels? My other trouble is because you stay on your toe longer, and the transition of weight transfer between legs happens so much faster, I'd often forget to release the toe.

[Brush Tap]

I think the shift of weight to the heel that Chris mentions is really quite subtle, and you may already be doing it, but you may not even notice that you are doing it unless you really focus. If you do practice taking the moving foot back a few times very slowly, you will eventually feel it; it is subtle, but there is a shift in weight that happens through the foot. Think of it logically- if you don't start getting the weight to the back of the foot, you'll never be able to release the toe once the moving leg is extended.

Also, keep in mind that you can have your weight forward AND still have it going through the back of your foot (the point is not to be leaning back or tipping back).

[lynn]

I actually have no problem doing the shift weight that Chris described. I was trying out what Joe was talking about, keep the weight on the toes, stretching the leg out first and THEN roll back the heels. My problem is that I cannot maintain my balance on the toes of the supporting leg when stretching out my other leg....maybe I should bend my knees more??

[Katarzyna]

If you maintain your body forward towards your partner, you shouldn't have a problem..

[Chris Stratton]

There may well be a current trend towards teaching that the weight stays in the ball of the foot until the moving foot is placed; this is certainly seen a lot, along with the problems it causes - moving the leg before your partner's weight has progressed forward in their foot constitutes too much guessing about the size of the step that will be taken. If it turns out smaller than the anticipatory leg extension, the weight will never reach the standing heel and the foot will be departed via a toe drag rather than a toe release.

Alex Moore and that crowd are very clear in their belief that the weight should be in the standing heel as soon as the moving foot passes the standing one. The current ISTD book retains enough of his system to suggest that this timing is still endorsed.

[Katarzyna]

Well, the problems begin when the person going forward doesn't fully commit their weight.. But as long as the person moving forward executes the action correctly, the one moving backward won't have any problems, (regardless of the step size).

[lynn]

So far I've heard of 3 theories, one is to keep the weight on the toes until the moving leg stops moving, the second is to roll the weight back to the heels then stretch out the leg, the third one is somehwere in between. My teacher seems to be leaning towards the second option but I don't think there's such thing as the correct way but perhaps just a matter of preference.

Katarzyna, the problem I'm encountering is similar to the one Chris described where the weight sometimes never reaches the heel. I can fully commit my weight and never go through the rolling of the heel and just do a horizontal weight transfer (like the toe drag or almost a hop) instead.

[Katarzyna]

I know exactly the problem you are describing. I've been there too. Generally, it is caused by the person going forward. In order fot this technique to work, BOTH people have to do their part correctly... Sometimes it is easier to work with more basic technique just to ensure more correct footwork...

[lynn]

Katarzyna, this is totally off-topic, but do you feel that shoes make any difference in terms of balancing? I find certain types of shoes I just can't balance myself even if my life depends on it!

[Katarzyna]

Totally... Some brands don't provide much support. Also, when the shoes are worn out, sometime they don't allow for the feet to roll very easily. There is nothing nicer than dancing in brand new court shoes. You can basically hang out on the heel for ever.

[Chris Stratton]

Well, the problems begin when the person going forward doesn't fully commit their weight.. But as long as the person moving forward executes the action correctly, the one moving backward won't have any problems, (regardless of the step size).

What is the difference between committing your weight and moving it through the standing foot?

My concern with sending the free leg while staying on the ball of the foot is basically that it constitutes placing the foot without committing the body to movement (or placing the foot before the partner's body is comitted to movement). How, other than by movement of the body, are step sizes to be communicated?

[Katarzyna]

Well, the problems begin when the person going forward doesn't fully commit their weight.. But as long as the person moving forward executes the action correctly, the one moving backward won't have any problems, (regardless of the step size).

What is the difference between committing your weight and moving it through the standing foot?

My concern with sending the free leg while staying on the ball of the foot is basically that it constitutes placing the foot without committing the body to movement (or placing the foot before the partner's body is comitted to movement). How, other than by movement of the body, are step sizes to be communicated?
The leg is extended back, however, it will still move as the partners body starts to move. The placement of the back foot will shift ( not slide) as the person going forward pushes out of the standing leg, (unless that action is missing..) and the person moving back pushes out of the heel.... Person going forward moves through the standing foot, and pushes out of the standing foot as the movement through it is finished... I believe in orer to stay in balance while executing this, both partners need to have positive energy towards each other...

(going forward is so much more difficult than going back)

[lynn]

In essence, in order to execute the move, you basically need the "push" energy from the person moving forward?

[Katarzyna]

I could be wrong, but I believe that you need the energy to be able to roll through your heel. So if you can't rely on your partner to provide the energy, you might be safer puting the heel down sooner...

[Chris Stratton]

The leg is extended back, however, it will still move as the partners body starts to move. The placement of the back foot will shift ( not slide) as the person going forward pushes out of the standing leg

What's the difference between shifting and sliding?

[Joe]

A shift is a placement of weight, no movement of feet. A slide is self-explanatory.

BTW, lynn, when I say "toe" or "toes" I don't mean literall your toes--I mean the ball of your foot.

[Chris Stratton]

A shift is a placement of weight, no movement of feet. A slide is self-explanatory.

But Katarzyna said "The placement of the back foot will shift (not slide)" so apparently she is moving the foot, though I'm completely failing to understand what distinction is being made in the nature of its movement.

[Katarzyna]

A shift is a placement of weight, no movement of feet. A slide is self-explanatory.

But Katarzyna said "The placement of the back foot will shift (not slide)" so apparently she is moving the foot, though I'm completely failing to understand what distinction is being made in the nature of its movement.
I would say that sliding is produced when you place the weight on the foot too early and the body weight forces your foot to move in order to stay on balance... When you shift you weight, you use your supporting leg to place you on the extended leg, (and the leg can continue moving untill you place weight on it).

[Chris Stratton]

So you personally use "sliding" only to mean movement of a (partially) weighted foot? If so I can then agree with the part of your original post that seems to say that the still unweighted free foot will move some more as the body weight moves past the standing foot.

Where we still disagree is in the amount of movement of the free foot before the body weight is really in motion. I don't see how you can know to move your free foot until you feel the step in your body. If you know because the motion is continuous from the previous step, then delaying the movement of your body weight through your foot until would seem to be artificially halting it.

[Katarzyna]

Where we still disagree is in the amount of movement of the free foot before the body weight is really in motion. I don't see how you can know to move your free foot until you feel the step in your body. If you know because the motion is continuous from the previous step, then delaying the movement of your body weight through your foot until would seem to be artificially halting it.
You can move the free leg more as you compress on the standing foot and rotate the body. Your free foot will be ready to receive your weight after you push out of the standing leg. This doesn't halt movement of the body, but allows to control it more. Movement is continuous and the rotation fills up the music. As you compress and rotate, you can move your body weight through the standing foot. The body weight movement will not need to be halted if both partners have a positive body connection, which allows a balance of a couple as you move through the standing leg.

[Chris Stratton]

This may go part way to explaining why so many guys take step 4 of the spin turn sideways to DW rather than down LOD - they are taking the step before moving through their foot.

[lynn]

A shift is a placement of weight, no movement of feet. A slide is self-explanatory.

BTW, lynn, when I say "toe" or "toes" I don't mean literall your toes--I mean the ball of your foot.

Yes, I know that, standing on the toes of my foot would require some extraordinary balancing skills :lol: !!