Dancing with stars... Pros/Cons...thoughts? [Archive]

ChaChaLicious

07-05-2005, 02:01 PM

preshow and week 1 (discussion) http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=9152
week 1 (poll) http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=9845
week 2 (discussion) http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=9909
week 2 (poll) http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=9927
week 3 http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=10023
week 4 http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=10123
week 5 http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=10219
week 6
soundtrack http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=9893t=10122
judges & contestants http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=9928
in the news http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=10054
music http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=10036
sold out http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=9883
free tickets http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=9233

As great as this show might be, i think that kelly monaco is by far the worst. i cant believe she made it to the finals. her footwork is terrible, her posture is better but still off, and she has no sense of rhythm. ugh! i really hope john wins... hes awesome. what are your thoughts on the show?

lynn

07-05-2005, 02:02 PM

Hmm, guess I'm the first to respond, I'll state the obvious:

Pros: Some ppl discover that ballroom dancing is so much fun and full of passion.
Cons: sometimes it leads to unrealistic expectations. Some people gets the idea that you can be THAT good in such a period of time.

ChaChaLicious

07-05-2005, 02:24 PM

i agree. actually, when i came into practice last week, i saw that we had a few new students so i asked them why they decided to join and their response was, well we saw it on tv and wanted to dance that well in that time frame like they did. i just grabbed my head and walked away.. i had nothing to say to these people. shouldnt people have common sense and realize it takes years and years to even be considered a good dancer...

Indiana_Jay

07-05-2005, 02:46 PM

DWTS helped to motivate my wife and me to sign up for our first dance lessons. We might not have gotten around to it otherwise.

Although we are newbies, we understood from the beginning that there's a big difference between what the dancers on DWTS are doing and what we'd be doing.

We decided that ballroom dancing looked like a fun thing to do together.

While I'm sure there are other new students with less realistic expectations, if it gets people into the studios, perhaps it's not all bad.

Even if DWTS fails to accurately portray all the aspects of ballroom dancing, it's at least fun to watch and certainly more beautiful television than most other reality TV shows.

I'm glad ABC took the risk and put it on.

SDsalsaguy

07-05-2005, 02:51 PM

Great points Indiana_Jay... and welcome to the wonderful world of balloom dancing (and the DF!)! :D

lynn

07-05-2005, 02:54 PM

Well, I'm guessing you can be showy and not have proper technique/form in a short amount of time, at least that's what my teacher told me. He said all they've been working on is one dance per week (I'm not 100% sure on this, so plz don't quote me) and they probably don't know the basical lead/follow skills. But sometimes people just want to show off and don't care about the proper technique. It's sad, but everyone has different goals.

I used to teach little kids piano so I know I can train them really well on one piece of music even if it's way above their level. All they need to do is to play it over and over every day and for that piece only. Being able to play that piece of music doesn't mean you're that level, it just means you can play it, period.

Ithink

07-05-2005, 03:41 PM

I disagree with your assessment of Kelly but that's not what you asked.

I think this show is not a bad thing by any means. At its best, it'll introduce lots of people to ballroom, drive down lesson prices and makes it more affordable for us. At its worst, it'll just show people that ballroom is athletic, fun and not just for old people.

As for Kelly, I think she epitomizes what ballroom is about: fun, sexy, takes lots of hard work but isn't above anyone's abilities. That anyone who wants to dance, can even if they're pigeontoed, have no rhythm or whatever else you said about Kelly. And for what it's worth, I though this at first but I think she has made great strides and deserves, just as much as John (whose rhythm ain't that good either, IMO) to win DWTS.

alina:)

BrookeErin

07-05-2005, 04:08 PM

welcome Jay

Indiana_Jay

07-05-2005, 04:32 PM

welcome to the wonderful world of balloom dancing (and the DF!)!

welcome Jay

Thanks, SD and Brooke... I'm learning a lot from the forums and looking forward to our second private lesson this week.

Vince A

07-05-2005, 04:53 PM

As for Kelly, I think she epitomizes what ballroom is about: fun, sexy, takes lots of hard work but isn't above anyone's abilities. That anyone who wants to dance, can even if they're pigeontoed, have no rhythm or whatever else you said about Kelly. And for what it's worth, I though this at first but I think she has made great strides and deserves, just as much as John (whose rhythm ain't that good either, IMO) to win DWT.alina:)
I agree with you 100% . . . Kelly is what that show should be about - from rookie beginner to a continually improving dancer . . . given whatever timespan that person is involved in while to learn to dance and improve!

Yes, John is good, and has also improved, but like you say, the rhythm, and the novice look is still there, while Kelly's is not.

I also thought Kelly was the better dancer from the very first show . . . I think she has a shot at knocking John off! I know his charisma is powerful, and most times . . . that sells! You and I and a few others will get eaten alive on the DF if John wins, but if Kelly wins . . . the "I told you so's" will be short-lived.

tacad

07-05-2005, 05:12 PM

But we could make a lot of noise in that short-lived time! :twisted:

Vince A

07-05-2005, 05:41 PM

But we could make a lot of noise in that short-lived time! :twisted:
HA-HA-HA-HA . . . Im with you . . . :twisted: :twisted:

I can't wait!

mamboqueen

07-05-2005, 06:16 PM

Okay, I love you guys, but you need to look at Kelly's dancing and not her body parts wiggling! :wink: She steeenks!

Welcome, Indiana Jay. It's nice to hear that people are taking up the hobby/sport/art/name it from watching the show! I hope you and your wife enjoy it as much as the rest of us do.

SDsalsaguy

07-05-2005, 07:02 PM

It depends though...

Do I think that John has, on the whole, been the best and mo consistent dancer (of the ams) since week one? Absolutely!

Do I think that kelly is, without a doubt, the most improved dancer (of the ams) since week one? Also absolutely!

I give a lot of credit to both of them and to both of their instructors accordingly.

ChaChaLicious

07-05-2005, 07:24 PM

even though she did improve a whole lot since week one of show, i still think she isnt a good dancer.

as for the show itself, i must agree that it did open up a lot of doors for people who always wanted to take lessons and never got around to it. i know that my studio skyrocketed since the airing of DWTS. however, what i dont like about it, is that even though it portrays ballroom to be fun, and sexy and all that jazz, it doesnt really show what it really is about. all the years of work, dedictation that goes into it. all the dynamics and technique, all the money and all the hard work of training and practicing for weeks and weeks at a time. it just doesnt show everything i'd like people to really know about ballroom. i know its a show and they do show us scenes of them practicing but i dont think its enough. aside from that.. i think the show is great. im glad im finally able to watch something that i love and do everyday of my life. and im glad that so many people watch it to try to semi-understand what ballroom dancing REALLY, TRUELY is....

Vince A

07-05-2005, 08:12 PM

I'd really like to see the two Pros dance just once. All the credit should be theirs for getting Kelly and what's his name into the finals.

Regardless of who does win, I can assuredly say that the show has opened the eyes of non-ballroom, hell, non-dancersand dancers in general! The show as someone else put . . . is without a doubt the most beautiful of the reality shows, and it didn't need an extreme makeover to get there. It just took 6 great Pros . . . 6 willing stars to go through that . . . and three ho-hum judges . . . and one MC who is using his lines from the AMFV show!

I have really enjoyed the show . . . honest!

ChaChaLicious

07-05-2005, 08:25 PM

speaking of the judges... i think the only people who should be judging the show are dancers themselves.. any pro-dancer/ or pro judge.. anyone who knows ballroom dancing like the back of their hand. not some choregraphers who probably never danced the cha cha in their lifetime. some retired dancers would be nice like tony meridith and melanie lapatin. or some pro dancers like slavik kryklyvyy and karina smirnoff, or eugene katsevman and maria manusova. gary and diana mcdonald.. anyone who knows the dance world!

tacad

07-06-2005, 01:47 AM

Okay, I love you guys, but you need to look at Kelly's dancing and not her body parts wiggling! :wink: She steeenks!

Body parts? :shock: She had body parts? :shock:

:lol: Actually I was watching the dancing except for 15 to 20 seconds when I was completely distracted by the wardrobe malfunction. :roll: Kelly is not as technically correct as John. This comes across as more interesting and confident for her. More tentative and beginner-ish for him. I agree with what Laura said about classic dancing vs. flash and trash. In fact I agree with the facts most people are putting forward about their skill levels. I, as a social ballroom dancer, liked the flava, for lack of a better word, in Kelly's dancing.
For my standards, she was the better dancer. She conveyed more of what I like in social ballroom dancing.

And if I may give a friendly jab :wink: : It ain't all about competitions, syllabi, or technique. But also about the heart and the mood of the dance.
Ballroom dancing includes social ballroom dancing. And unless people think that America is going to run into studios and become competitors for dancesport, maybe it's a good thing that Kelly is here for the rest of us. Part and parcel of ballroom dancing.

And I love and respect all you guys and gals too. :wink:

Larinda McRaven

07-06-2005, 01:50 AM

beautifully put.

SDsalsaguy

07-06-2005, 01:55 AM

Ditto.

ChaChaLicious

07-06-2005, 02:44 AM

as true as that may be. that a lot of heart goes into dancing, technique and everything else is a vital part of it or else it wouldnt be what it is. it wouldnt be a sport, and it wouldnt need instruction if it were only what is listed above. i think that since its known to have a lot of technique and dedication and work to go into it, then that is what needs to be shown and judged just as much as the love and heart of it...

flyingwolf

07-06-2005, 10:24 AM

I disagree with your assessment of Kelly but that's not what you asked.
As for Kelly, I think she epitomizes what ballroom is about: fun, sexy, takes lots of hard work but isn't above anyone's abilities. That anyone who wants to dance, can even if they're pigeontoed, have no rhythm or whatever else you said about Kelly. And for what it's worth, I though this at first but I think she has made great strides and deserves, just as much as John (whose rhythm ain't that good either, IMO) to win DWTS.
alina:)
First of all, in real competition no judge would care how much you have improved
Second of all, do I have to be gay to not think Kelly is sooo fun and sexy??? :? :? :?

mamboqueen

07-06-2005, 10:29 AM

No, you don't. I don't find her all that great to look at either, although she has a terrific figure.

And I agree - who is to win -- the most consistent throughout, or the most improved (which, I personally don't think she has really improved *that* much -- she is still getting tossed around, IMO).

Oh well, it'll all be over tonight. Hopefully they'll dredge up some other celebs, and not the 15-minute variety, either. It is entertaining....

alemana

07-06-2005, 10:40 AM

improvement most certainly *is* noted and appreciated by judges.

flyingwolf

07-06-2005, 10:43 AM

improvement most certainly *is* noted and appreciated by judges. Not if they only see you at most a couple of times a year and have no idea who you are and how you look like in last comp

alemana

07-06-2005, 10:46 AM

my point is that this is not an exluded criteria for judging, as you suggested. for pros, who are seen by the same small core of judges over and over, improvement is expected (not to mention paid for with pre-comp coaching sessions.)

even at the amateur level, i see the same judges at the same regional comps over and over. they know, in general, who the competitors are. it's not tabula rasa every time.

Ithink

07-06-2005, 11:25 AM

Umm, I'm a female who is not gay and I happen to think Kelly does look sexy and now she looks like she's also having fun (she didn't at first).

John has had to do one latin dance all competition (I don't count paso because it's a very standard-like latin dance and, as he put it, has no hip movement) which he bombed royally. He also didn't impress the judges in the tango. So really, the only dances he did well have been standard dances. That to me does not say he is the best overall dancer. It says that he is the best standard/smooth dancer, maybe... And even in those his timing is questionable - it is a testimony to Charlotte's skill that she is able to cover up his timing issues and keep him somewhat on beat. I think if he had to do jive like Kelly he might be a goner already. So your argument that he is the most consistent is hardly correct.

I think I would be happy regardless of who wins. But to say that somehow John is superior to Kelly because he's been consistent is not entirely true. Each has weaknesses and strengths. John's is his standard/smooth look and is it really that shocking: he has Charlotte, one of the best female standard dancers, as teacher. His latin on the other hand is not good (all I'm going to say because I don't feel that I have to insult John to prop up Kelly like some of you John supporters). Kelly's is her ability to work hard and improve and yes, her latin dancing IS better than John's and improving... Her standard is not as good but she has Alec as teacher whose standard is hardly better than Louis Van Amstel's... One has a much more experienced instructor, no day job and prior dancing experience (even if it is in musicals); the other has no experience, a full-time job and an inexperienced (at least in pro-am dancing) instructor. I think both people are equally deserving to win but I always like a come-from-behind victory so I will be rooting for Kelly.

Oh yeah, for all you John-supporters: you might do well trying not to disparage other opinions. If you want John to win, it doesn't mean you have to insult Kelly. And vice versa. I thought this board was different from others in that all opinions were respected. I was surprised to see people openly insulting a beginner dancer's figure, etc. just to prop up their favorite on a reality TV show.

smoozer

07-06-2005, 11:46 AM

Well said Ithink

Laura

07-06-2005, 11:49 AM

Angelo

07-06-2005, 11:52 AM

John has had to do one latin dance all competition (I don't count paso because it's a very standard-like latin dance and, as he put it, has no hip movement) which he bombed royally.

Actually, John did do pretty decent cha cha for a real green beginner in week 1. But I'm rooting for Kelly as well

mamboqueen

07-06-2005, 11:55 AM

I just re-read this thread and I don't see anyone disparaging another poster's opinions. If you feel you have been disparaged, please contact me via pm. This thread asks for people's thoughts, and it seems to me that is what has been shared here. If someone thinks someone's dancing stinks or otherwise, they're entitled to their opinion. People (celebrities) would be living with their heads in the sand if they didn't think that their performances (acting, dancing, singing, whatever) were going to be criticized....or if they're lucky, praised. You wanna be dancing on tv in a contest, I think you need to make sure your skin is thick enough!

Ithink

07-06-2005, 12:13 PM

Okay, I love you guys, but you need to look at Kelly's dancing and not her body parts wiggling! :wink: She steeenks!

This seems a bit disparaging to Kelly's body don't you think?

Anyways, I am not going to get into an argument about who has been insulting whom - one quote is enough... Needless to say that as a happily newlywed female, I am not looking at anyone's wiggling body parts, just dancing. I happen to think Kelly's has been getting pretty darn good for someone dancing less than 3 months...

Oh and yes, there was a chacha danced in the beginning. Perhaps I forgot because after that first week noone was eliminated so I thought that first dance didn't really count. But yes, John's cha cha was not as bad as his samba, that's true.

mamboqueen

07-06-2005, 12:18 PM

And if you kept reading, you'd see that I posted that I think she has a great body. And even if I thought she had a lousy body, so what? Lighten up! I did not disparage any poster here with my statement. I think the two people I was addressing took it in the humor in which it was intended, but of course, I can't speak for them.

flyingwolf

07-06-2005, 01:12 PM

John has had to do one latin dance all competition (I don't count paso because it's a very standard-like latin dance and, as he put it, has no hip movement) which he bombed royally.

He also danced cha cha the first week and samba the week before last. So that makes two Latin dances (three if you count Paso).
Not only that. during the samba evening, John did Corta Jaca, Promenade run, Volta, whisk, plait, samba roll.... Kelly didn't even do half as many samba steps, at least 20% of her time she was whisking, and half of the time she was getting thrown around by Alec... Now why would someone call that 'real latin dance'?

flyingwolf

07-06-2005, 01:20 PM

[Oh and yes, there was a chacha danced in the beginning. Perhaps I forgot because after that first week noone was eliminated so I thought that first dance didn't really count. But yes, John's cha cha was not as bad as his samba, that's true.
What do you mean chacha didn't count? half of the second week's results were based on the vote from the first week.

and No, John's samba is not bad at all, considering his age, body and the same amount of time to learn as Kelly but need to learn leading in addition to the steps

tacad

07-06-2005, 01:33 PM

Angelo

07-06-2005, 01:40 PM

SDsalsaguy

07-06-2005, 01:43 PM

Because latin dance (or any dance for that matter) is more than just the steps
Exactly!

Another Elizabeth

07-06-2005, 01:43 PM

One thing that I think would be interesting would be some clips of the pros talking about their dance backgrounds. I see a lot of stuff on the non-dance websites of people talking about how gorgeous Charlotte is, etc., and I think people are interested in the pros, not just the "stars". A short clip of Charlotte talking about having started dancing at age 4 might be an interesting contrast to what the stars are going through. (I did like that John mentioned that Charlotte had won the foxtrot at Blackpool, and it probably sounded better coming from him.)

Actually, interviews like that would be a really nice addition to the ABC website, if they think it's not interesting enough for the show.

Laura

07-06-2005, 01:45 PM

Because latin dance (or any dance for that matter) is more than just the steps
Exactly!

Yes, but it's also about more than writhing in place looking "suxy."

Kitty

07-06-2005, 01:47 PM

Not only that. during the samba evening, John did Corta Jaca, Promenade run, Volta, whisk, plait, samba roll.... Kelly didn't even do half as many samba steps, at least 20% of her time she was whisking, and half of the time she was getting thrown around by Alec... Now why would someone call that 'real latin dance'?

Because latin dance (or any dance for that matter) is more than just the steps

I thought John's latin was great. In latin I want to see a strong (means on balance) manly man, not a wiggling man. I thought he was good. ANd coordination in the couple was the best: he seemed like he always knew where she is and in control.

Angelo

07-06-2005, 02:00 PM

Because latin dance (or any dance for that matter) is more than just the steps
Exactly!

Yes, but it's also about more than writhing in place looking "suxy."

You don't have to like it, but I liked it, and so did the judges and the audience. I think she's doing great and I thought her foxtrot was the best of the bunch, as long as you look from the neck down (she didn't smile much)

Purr

07-06-2005, 02:09 PM

Alec Mazo should be given a lot of credit for as far along as he's brought Kelly. His bio says recently turned professional. I think he could parlay the exposure from Dancing With The Stars into a successful pro/am career, if he wanted.

Laura

07-06-2005, 02:12 PM

He may have "recently" turned pro, but he's been dancing at a VERY high level and teaching for much longer. He's been a US amateur finalist and also competing overseas for years -- he was already a better dancer as an amateur than most pros in the US.

Anyway, I just watched last week's episode again and I really think that Joey got the short end of the stick. If only Ashly had started cracking the whip on him a week or two earlier. I thought his Paso was the best of all, and their Foxtrot was the most entertaining while also being decently executed.

tacad

07-06-2005, 03:10 PM

Anyway, I just watched last week's episode again and I really think that Joey got the short end of the stick. If only Ashly had started cracking the whip on him a week or two earlier. I thought his Paso was the best of all, and their Foxtrot was the most entertaining while also being decently executed.
I'll have to take another look but I also liked Joey. He seemed to have good technique and also got the mood of the dances as well. I've got to take another look.

Ithink

07-06-2005, 03:31 PM

I thought that besides his posture problems Joey was the best *dancer* of the group in terms of really dancing and doing it to music not on top of the music... He is more of raw talent than any of them and with training he could really go far because he really feels the music much more than any of the other contestants... It would have been interesting to see the competition with John training with Ashly and Joey training with Charlotte - I think we'd see very different results...

Vince A

07-06-2005, 04:15 PM

I liked Joey a lot, and their routines were, I thought, well above the choreography of the others. I like gutsy stuff in routines . . . you go for it, and either you nail it and win, or you don't - and lose!

Laura

07-06-2005, 04:20 PM

alemana

07-06-2005, 04:21 PM

i'll be having a lesson during the final. i'm devastated!

Vince A

07-06-2005, 05:34 PM

I like that even though Joey & Ashly didn't actually get paso doble music, they still managed to dance recognizable paso doble to "Eye of the Tiger." And he had attitude to spare, without getting hammy. Ditto for the foxtrot number -- I nearly fell over when Len and Bruno went on about it not being foxtrot. Well, how about that samba/rumba of Alec & Kelly's not being paso doble?
I couldn't have said it any better . . .

Anyway, we'll see tonight...just a few hours more...
I went to a restaurant today for lunch . . . I heard a table full of women discussing DWTS . . . and "how sexy John is" . . . and then, two oriental gentleman walked in, and they were discussing it and the movie "Ballroom."

It seems a lot of people are waiting for the next few hours to go by . . . to get the show on the road.

mamboqueen

07-06-2005, 06:03 PM

i'll be having a lesson during the final. i'm devastated!

Me, too! And I have to go take care of the garlic breath I just acquired by eating 3 loaded slices of pizza (gotta carb up!).

I read the Boston Herald on the way home (it's free at the end of the day) and they picked John to win. I think it's a pretty much a crapshoot at this point.

africana

07-06-2005, 06:26 PM

hope they show re-runs cos I have missed every show after the first one :(

lynn

07-06-2005, 06:28 PM

is re-scheduling your class not an option?

flyingwolf

07-06-2005, 07:07 PM

Not only that. during the samba evening, John did Corta Jaca, Promenade run, Volta, whisk, plait, samba roll.... Kelly didn't even do half as many samba steps, at least 20% of her time she was whisking, and half of the time she was getting thrown around by Alec... Now why would someone call that 'real latin dance'?

Because latin dance (or any dance for that matter) is more than just the steps
True, and latin dance is also more than just getting throwing around and shaking the assets, not to mention doing anything but dancing

tacad

07-06-2005, 11:26 PM

Chris Stratton

07-06-2005, 11:47 PM

I just watched last weeks rerun. Kelly's foxtrot. I don't do the follower's part
so maybe I'm missing something, but she didn't look that bad on technique did she? Certainly not worth all the emotion that was poured out. Granted, most of the time she was being held or spun. But the few times she did regular steps she looked respectable to me. Am I missing something?

No, Kelly wasn't bad as a student for foxtrot... the problem is that her teacher doesn't seem as familiar with the dance as the other two teachers.

I thought Joey was the best of them all on foxtrot. The judges lost their minds on this one. He had technique and mood, in my somewhat-limited- expertise-in-comparison-to-others-on-this-board opinion.

In actuality the technique of Joey's continuity smooth basics did seem on par with that of John's international basics. To whatever extent the judges were judging and not engineering an outcome, I think the difference would have to go to what they claimed - Joey's performance was more "Guys and Dolls" than ballroom and as a result left a lasting impression that may have overshadowed the degree to which it's ballroom elements were on a similar level to John's more ballroom style routine. As with Alec/Kelly, the difference in style is as much a factor of the teacher's backgrounds as of the students individuality, while the common level of achievement reflects the physical challenges of trying to learn one of the most skill-dependent dances in a period of time too short to develop prerequisite foot strength.

tacad

07-06-2005, 11:58 PM

I just watched the paso dobles again. I had 3 weeks of international paso doble. :lol:

As far as I could tell Joey's was the better dance. He seemed more solid than John. His weight and momentum seemd more in control. Also he seemed to have the mood better. Kelly had samba music. I couldn't decide if she had good technique or not. Maybe they were doing samba (which I don't do either).

Anyway, my favorite was definitely Joey.

And the last show coming up here on the west coast now! :banana: