Tips for Salsa Followers

[Claire_Brummell]

Hi All,

I know that there was a bit of a misunderstanding over a topic of this kind before so I thought I would re-start one in the spirit in which I believe the first was intended - the idea being for followers to come and give tips to other followers to help them improve AND for leads to come and give tips to followers based on their experiences in order that we could come up with some sort of "Golden Rules" that uses the experience and knowledge of everyone here.

I would say that I have three points that I can immediately think of here:

1) Arm tension.

Always give what you receive - match the tension given to you by your partner and you will not normally go wrong - a good general rule of thumb is that low leads (and by this I mean hip/rib level) generally are after more tension, as soon as the lead goes above the shoulder (again generally speaking) you should drop the level of tension in the arms. But you should not go wrong by matching your partner.

2) Styling

Styling should always be natural - the best styling is the one that looks like it's an extension of your natural body movement - it should never look 'fake' or forced. The best way to begin styling is when you're dancing with a guy start looking for the opportunities where you have a free arm - once you get used to where they are, you can start to think about using them. Start small - a hand over your head or a simple arm extension up for one beat and then drop (it's always best to go up - go out to the side and you may take out another couple...) Get used to just one styling move and do it until it becomes natural. Once you do this your confidence will increase and you'll be able to throw in other little embellishments... Oh and if you style, make it graceful!! Do it completely or not at all - much better to have a completely extended arm than a limp half hearted attempt - it will look worse than no styling at all!! :D

3) Arms Up!

When you're dancing in general keep your arms up at hip / waist height this will

a) Help you keep your balance
b) Make it easier for the lead to find them
c) Make it easier for you to get to the leads hands when offered
d) Look more graceful
e) Actually help your body movement by giving you something to counter your weight with - this will naturally make your arms and shoulders move more rhythmically.

And the golden rule? Smile at your partner (this goes for guys too!) - it's supposed to be fun!!

That's all for now - but I'll be back!!

[africana]

Basic Steps First!!

Develop an internal sense of timing, independently. Master the basic step. Keep the beat throughout a song.
It's good for following/helping beginner leads, and it's good for following advanced leads. And it's a great foundation for stylistic expression
I've seen too many "advanced" followers get into styling that has nothing to do with the tempo of the music, it really only looks like showing off, because they start out and end up with basic steps that are out of sync

Try Not To Move Yourself

If he didn't lead it, you shouldn't do it. it's hard I know, guilty here sometimes, but it's important. Especially with crossbody leads. Why do beginner follows walk themselves into these, even before the lead has cleared out of the way?
I guess I notice it more now that I'm learning to lead
there are exceptions, I think, but not in this context

Give the Lead a C-Cup

In addition to correct tension, hook the fingers onto the leads hands in C-shape (see the old thread about this). It makes it so much easier to lead without having to grab the hands and pull more forcefully. It takes sometime to retain consistently, still working on it myself
The C-Cup technique may not work with all leads as some leaders are used to leading with bad connection and so may not reciprocate

There are a lot of other things we've discussed before like taking smaller steps (as much as possible), using the balls of the feet, and such. most of them are guidelines that can change depending on the lead, and even the floor and type of shoes a follow wears for dancing.
The best follows I've seen have been drilled into minimizing the impact of these other factors .i.e. lots and lots of practice yuck :P

[Josh]

Turns: don't be too heavy. Many times when I lead a turn (think cross-body reverse turn) the girl feels so heavy and slow that it can almost throw us off tempo. The gentleman should initiate the turn and provide some idea of speed and give a little help, but ladies are responsible for turning themselves after it has begun.

I'll reiterate what africana said: do not lead yourself. I know it's tempting, especially with some of us leads who have not perfected the art :wink: But especially on CBLs, do not start walking until the gentleman pulls or pushes you into it, and keep that tension so he can lead it with a bit of a snap/whip. It just looks better, more crisp and sharp, with a real pause instead of a continuous, flowing step-back-and-begin-walk kind of motion.

[Claire_Brummell]

I would actually like to elaborate on the point about leading yourselves...


I think that this actually breaks into two sections:

1) In Class

2) On the Dancefloor

Now I could go on about this (As my students will tell you!!! :lol:) but I will keep it simple and brief!

1) In Class - If you lead yourselves in class:
a) The leads will not learn / remember the move - and they will not know how to lead it. If he doesn't lead it - don't do it. If he leads something else - do that something else. He will learn what he's doing wrong and how to correct it - if you do the moves for him - he'll go on leading it wrong.
b) You will not learn what the signals are for a move and you will not know what you're looking for on the dancefloor.
c) Neither of you will be able to translate these moves to the dancefloor (which is kind of the point!)

2) On the dancefloor - If you lead yourselves on the dancefloor:
Quite simply you are in danger of hurting yourself and your lead by doing one thing when he is trying to do something else! :D

[blossomingsalsadancer]

Make sure you are wearing a "salsa-proof" outfit before going out!!! :D

Last night, I made the mistake of wearing a strapless dress that I belatedly realized may shift (ie threat of falling down) during rigorous moves. I spent most of the night fiddling with it, making sure it stays put. Although I tried to sneak these moves in so as not to interfere with the lead's moves, I'm sure it was highly distracting to him (and was very annoying to me). That dress isn't going out salsa dancing again. :x

Another time, I wore a dress that flew up whenever I did fast multiple turns. :shock: I spent most of that night making sure I did only single spins which must have ticked off a few of my partners. :( Since that night, I learned to wear shorts underneath such swirly dresses.

[Ms_Sunlight]

1) In Class - If you lead yourselves in class:
a) The leads will not learn / remember the move - and they will not know how to lead it. If he doesn't lead it - don't do it. If he leads something else - do that something else. He will learn what he's doing wrong and how to correct it - if you do the moves for him - he'll go on leading it wrong.
b) You will not learn what the signals are for a move and you will not know what you're looking for on the dancefloor.
c) Neither of you will be able to translate these moves to the dancefloor (which is kind of the point!)


I find it quite disheartening though. I try very hard not to walk through moves in class and to let myself be led, but what that means is that a whole bunch of men I dance with in class think I am a complete cretin who cannot do the simplest moves. Their reactions show that they do not think well of me.

But then, the better leaders will often pull "surprise moves" on followers in the class to see if they are walking through the move or actually following it, simple things like substituting a neck lock for an underarm turn, say. Usually when that happens I follow very well and don't get caught out.

I often find myself doing completely different things to the moves we are supposed to be learning, because that's the lead I'm getting. But it's depressing to have guys who obviously think of themselves as good dancers look at me like I'm an idiot and should scuttle back to beginners class.

I don't have a great feeling about myself in the salsa scene anyway because I'm a decent mover but I'm not as slim, young or pretty as some of the females out there.

[cornutt]

One particular tip from a leader, who sees a lot of beginning followers doing this:

When in frame, don't lock your right elbow! That's a good way to get an elbow or shoulder injury. Keep some bend in your elbow, so that your arm has freedom of movement in case "something happens".

[cornutt]

I find it quite disheartening though. I try very hard not to walk through moves in class and to let myself be led, but what that means is that a whole bunch of men I dance with in class think I am a complete cretin who cannot do the simplest moves. Their reactions show that they do not think well of me.


What Claire said above. Admittedly, it can be a bit of a bruise to the leader's ego when he leads something and the follower does something completely other. The thing to do about this is to talk what the follower felt vs. what the leader thought he was doing. Sometimes it's the result of the leader who is trying to lead something hands-wise without his own body actually executing his part. The follower gets conflicting signals. But it could also be that the follower doesn't understand what the lead is supposed to feel like; this could particularly be the case if the follower has been dancing with a leader who has bad technique.

But then, the better leaders will often pull "surprise moves" on followers in the class to see if they are walking through the move or actually following it, simple things like substituting a neck lock for an underarm turn, say. Usually when that happens I follow very well and don't get caught out.

Good; that means you really are following. Sometimes the repitition of practicing a move in a class can be counterproductive to learning the connection; the partners just fall into the pattern of automatically doing the moves because they both know in advance what they're going to do, and the connection part doesn't get learned. And sometimes in this situation the follower, because they know what they are going to be doing, will start before the leader has actually led, and that gets the leader confused. I don't claim to be a better dancer, but I have to admit I sometimes do the surprise-move trick, such as dancing a basic or two before executing the step being learned, or doing some kind of a variation. I've had followers be a bit put out by that, but I'm not doing it to trick them; I'm doing it to make sure that I am actually learning the lead.

Sometimes followers do us too many favors. :wink: Last year, at one point, I started to get the feeling that whenever I social danced with my instructor, that she was doing things that I hadn't led properly, just because she is familiar with my dancing and she could tell what I had intended to do. I had to ask her not to be quite so helpful, and to just dance with me like she would anyone else. And as a result, I did learn a few things that I wasn't leading properly.

I don't have a great feeling about myself in the salsa scene anyway because I'm a decent mover but I'm not as slim, young or pretty as some of the females out there.

You'll get there. Attractiveness has a lot to do with confidence; feeling confident about your own dancing will automatically make you more attractive to partners. Plus, dancing is great for developing all-over muscle tone, so your figure will improve even if your weight remains the same. And as long as you and your partners are having fun, who cares what anyone else thinks?

[Claire_Brummell]

I don't have a great feeling about myself in the salsa scene anyway because I'm a decent mover but I'm not as slim, young or pretty as some of the females out there.

It's difficult to do what you know is not the move because that's what's being led - but you are right to do it - it might be worth mentioning to the teacher (if they're approachable) so that they can say something to the class about the ladies only following what is led - and that if they do not do it then it is the fault of the leads, not the followers - this will therefore put the onus back on them.

Salsa isn't about being young, slim, pretty, 6 ft, blonde, with legs to your armpits... it's about fun, enjoyment, laughter, feeling the music and dancing to it - as long as you do that and feel it on the inside that confidence will extend to the outside - and confidence is far more attractive than any pretty face - stick with it honey - we're with you!! :D

[Sabor]

my current signature line.. it goes for both lead and follow... if it happens to make sense to them.

[tacad]

Does that come with an instruction manual?

And the silliness continues.

[africana]

Ms-Sunny don't get too disheartened, lots of women experience what you have when they don't meet the ideal image - too short, too tall, too fat, too old (never heard of too skinny or too young lol)
- it can be quite discouraging feeling inadequate for whatever reason

But you can't sit and sulk. No matter what your physical appearance, I agree that the confidence makes the difference. And you can increase confidence is so many ways

- improve dance skill: I can't say enough just how much attention you can get from dancing confidently and with skill. If you feel overlooked for some physical reason (for me it was race and height) then unfortunately, you must compensate by being great at dancing

- shoes: so VERY important, can get you looking and feeling like a total clutz if you're not comfortable in them (last night is proof :lol: )
Anyway I usually take two or more types of dance shoes with me, incase the floor is not suitable for one of the shoes I have, or in case most of the skilled leads are shorter - I generally feel much more confident in jazz or lyrical shoes when dancing with shorter guys or spinning a lot.

- wardrobe: so very important to wear items that flatter and make you feel sexy and in charge. Go for flair, go for even exotic but all still practical for dancing, depending on your style of dance (body movement) and personality
*For me I go for a lot of complimentary and contrasting colors for my skin tone.
*I'm usually in high energy mode so I also go for items that allow a lot of free dynamic movements, and don't look too formal
*Also I also love swirly capes or skirts or slit pants or belts that are dramatic for spins - when I started learning spins it really bolstered my confidence wearing those
* It's also good to break out of wearing a lot of dark or black clothing, especially in a dark night club, it might get you unnoticed more often than desired (unless you're undercover, I definitely do that sometimes ;) )

-makeup!: play with colors and tones especially for the eyes (and I think you mentioned that you['re great at eye contact, I'm not :P ) So that could be your thing to do, to enhance and "pop". Salsa is your chance to be dramatic, so step outside that proverbial box

well that's what I can think of right away. Stay strong!

[Josh]

(never heard of ... too young lol)

(all my under-21 friends hear from me that they're too young when I want to go to a club and they can't get in :wink: )

To go with your list of confidence increasers, I must say the obvious, that regularly working out and having a toned body (I don't mean cover model toned, just in good shape) can be a big confidence booster. For men and women, I can think of hardly any situation when weight training should not supplement a good diet. Weights have so many benefits, one of the biggest, especially if trying to lose some pounds, is that weight training raises your resting metabolism so that you burn more calories while you're just sitting there, sleeping, etc.--because muscle requires more calories to maintain than fat. I don't lift to get big, I lift to improve my posture (back/abs), to improve my dance, and to improve my health. Go 3 times a week, give it 4 or 5 weeks, and almost anyone will feel better!

[Claire_Brummell]

While I agree with you in what you're saying I don't think that it's necessary to be slim or toned to be confident - by all means if someone wants to lose weight then your suggestions are ideal, but it's not the only way to feel confident.

I think that the main thing is to be happy with who you are - those who know me know that I am of a fairly slim build but I have friends who are not as young, slim or toned who have as much, if not more confidence than I do - it's a state of mind.

Dancing salsa is about fun and enjoyment - and you shouldn't have to be any age, race, size or shape to enjoy it which is the beauty of it - in general the salsa community is a very accepting, non-judgemental one.

I for one can't stand working out - I get very bored with it, so I use my salsa as my excerise - it's the only work out I do! (With all the salsa I do I don't have time to work out as well!)

Just so you know I'm not getting at you or arguing with your point - but as someone who used to be a little larger I know how sensitive people can be about this sort of thing, and I don't want anyone feeling that the only way for them to feel confident is to lose weight, or that anyone on the salsa scene will judge them on their age, size or any other visual characteristic - if they want to tone up then great, but if they don't that's ok too! :D

[Josh]

It's definitely not the only way, nor is it guaranteed to work. Keep in mind, too, that there are many people with relatively great bodies who look at themselves and are not confident, so people of all sizes can be sensitive about how they look. I'm one of them--I look at myself very often and am not satisfied with how I look, so I keep working at it. So I agree, it is certainly a state of mind.

Like you said, someone should not feel that they must be a certain size in order to increase confidence. Along the same lines, a person should also not feel that he or she must dance in order to increase confidence. So while neither of these is required to be a confident individual... they both certainly help, and they complement each other quite nicely.

[HF]

My personal opinion on this developed in three steps so far:

As a very beginner lead I would sometimes blame my partner when things were not working which resulted into discussion and frustration on both sides (step one). One day I decided to blame strictly myself and try to change my lead if a problem occured - from that day on life was much easier for both (step two). So if I look at beginner couples now and their debates I sometimes would like to tell them "if there is a problem with a turn pattern, it is always the guy. But he needs the lady to learn it, so please be patient". Up to now I do not dare to tell because giving unsolicited advice can be an uncomfortable thing, but I would like to because this helped me a lot.

However although this can be very handy as a rule of thumb - if you strictly assume that it is always the lead and a very skilled leader can lead any beginner follow into anything this would be a disregard of the art of following. True, if you watch Super Mario leading a beginner you wonder what is possible. But you still see that she is a beginner, and besides of attitude, ladiesstyling and general dancing skill there nevertheless are some technical follower skills that help.

These are a few things I noticed. Please note that I am not an expert or a teacher, but just an average intermediate dancer and the only motivation of this list is to contribute to this community, not to "preach before I practice" as has been said.


Basic (underarm turn to the right)
- Take your steps in rhythm: If a lady does not hold the SLOW it will make it very hard to lead anything other than in closed position.
Also the feet have to be used in alternating order (don't laugh). A very good hint even for intermediate ladies is this little secret: Instead of counting 123 - 567 just think: Right(1) - Left (5) - Right (1) - Left (5). No matter how complicated the turn pattern might be this will keep you on the steps.
- Have some tension in the right arm (this applies to closed position when the lead is holding your right hand but applies to the other arm as well in other situations). Not good to keep it all the time like in ballroom but there are two bars that are essential for leading - right before the one and right before the five.
- Learn to feel whether your feet are pointing inside or outside.

Intermediate (underarm left turn, CBL, CBinside, Copa)
- Learn to turn left. Not few ladies refuse to be lead in left turns.
- Always move on the line from A to B, back to A, B, and so on. No other places
- Learn not to stretch the connection arm entirely, not even after a CBL or in an open break.
- At any turn do not stop but turn until you are facing the lead. If you are stopped with your back to the lead it is fine but it is an exception and must be clearly lead. A lady that stops herself makes many moves unleadable.
- Learn to watch your free arm. Figure out some ladiesstyling but be sure to offer the hand to the lead before the "1" (EDIT: before the "5").

Advanced (double spins, triple spins, 360)
- Learn to spin and to spot
- Spin as long as the leaders hand is above your head and do not stop yourself
- Learn to rise your free arm in 360 on the "1" and connect to the lead. If you don't your arm will be shut.
Oh, and some more:

- If the lead touches the hip or the shoulder this should be a leading signal and it is not meant that you grab his hand.
- Don't turn if you are not lead into a turn EDIT even if the lead moves around you.
- The lead may let you go actively but you never let the lead go actively
- If the lead puts your hand to your body (e. g. right arm behind your back, hand at your left hip) it is supposed to stay there until the lead picks it up again.
- If the lead tosses or throws your hand then exactly this hand is supposed to land into his waiting other hand (or his same hand) - do not change your hands in between even if the lead has been turning his back to you.

[Claire_Brummell]

:D I agree

[azzey]

This is pasted from another thread "It is always the man's fault"
http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?p=186874#186874

As you can tell we're getting a little heated in the discussion, although still tongue in cheek!

Well, cuz we are freaking trying so hard to keep you under control, you freaking overstyler! that's why!! :roll: :lol: Don't you even start thinking that we'll do that pattern of death we like doing so much, on YOU! Why? So you can pull your own arm in the middle of it and blame "me" for it? No, we keep it simple with you...

Amen brother! The sad fact is that if intermediate followers concentrated on the short list below we'd be able to dance with them at a much higher level:

- rock solid timing
- stepping on the right beats with the correct foot
- do your basics steps really well, without any additional foot styling until you get really really good! Do not whatever you do twist or slide your feet as this takes up time, may put you off time and is felt by the lead as he's probably having to support you more so it certainly makes it harder to lead you. Pro's do it as styling and only every once in a while for effect! But you can guarantee the lead didn't feel a thing.
- following as smoothly as you possibly can! No tugging or jerking at any point in the dance, even on open breaks! When instructors say you need "high tension" at this point they meant you to generate it in a smooth transition from weak tension to high tension not a sudden jerking motion that almost pulls the leader off balance!
- supporting 100% of their own weight at all times, especially during open breaks, turns, spins and 80% to 90% for dips etc. There are only a few exceptions for special trick moves like drops and lifts, but even then the leader has to be allowed to lead you into those so there's no surprise to him that he's suddenly supporting you.
- following the lead in the direction he lead rather than what move they think it might be. If your hand is going past your face from left to right or right to left and your body is going in the opposite direction there's something wrong association in your head, not a bad lead!
- When following any kind of turn, follow the turn smoothly at the speed the leader is leading it without adding too much of your own momentum. The worst possible follower is the one who stops herself from following the initial lead then compensates by following late into the turn with more momentum than the leader gave her. The lead will usually try to stop the move when she doesn't follow it initially which usually results in her trying to follow that as if it's a second perceived lead.. so here we go into a yo-yo effect! Slow down, turn your body at the rate your arm is moving left/right and do it smoothly with no yo-yo effect and he'll find it much easier to lead you into more and more complex turns.
- keeping styling down to an absolute minimum when they're connected to their partner. Also try to make it functional to aid the leading/following rather than getting in the way. They can go wild when he lets both hands go for some shines but NOT when he's still holding their hands! Otherwise it feels like wrestling with a 10 year old! (see supporting your own weight)

When I get a follower who "follows" these simple rules the sky is the limit during the dance. It allows for more musicality, more possibility and variety of moves that feel good for the follower, depending on the ability of the leader he may even be able to make it seem like she's floating on air, indeed the follower will even look better because she's keeping it simple. In the end it could well be a more exciting dance because both have *trust* in each others roles, that he will lead an exciting dance if she will follow it.

[Claire_Brummell]

One thing that I have to say here is that I agree with most of the points here - however I think that in the most part that the teachers are to blame for these not being adhered to as strongly as they should be. If the teacher does not explain these / highlight the importance of them then how are the followers (and the leads for their part) supposed to know? I'm more aware of this now that I'm teaching myself and it really does take time and patience to break down every single bit of the lead / follow and put the emphasis on the correct points - but it's worth it!! Without it the students won't learn - not through fault on their part - but because they've never been told or just haven't been told how important these things are...this is why a good dancer does not necessarily a good instructor make - you need to be able to convey these things - week after week sometimes to make sure they realise the important elements of following and leading.

JMHO :D

[africana]

- When following any kind of turn, follow the turn smoothly at the speed the leader is leading it without adding too much of your own momentum. The worst possible follower is the one who stops herself from following the initial lead then compensates by following late into the turn with more momentum than the leader gave her. The lead will usually try to stop the move when she doesn't follow it initially which usually results in her trying to follow that as if it's a second perceived lead.. so here we go into a yo-yo effect! Slow down, turn your body at the rate your arm is moving left/right and do it smoothly with no yo-yo effect and he'll find it much easier to lead you into more and more complex turns. This is very true, the dance feels different and usually great when I cooperate with the lead's momentum, only exceptions are when I feel it's too fast or rough then I hold back. I dislike giving over my body to be thrown around. It can be dangerous both to him and to me, and even to bystanders
Also when the lead if off beat (happens often enough) I don't move at the lead's momentum all the time :? that's just my personal preference

There's also the times when I can feel that I'm being tightened up for an ejection, so I usually like to prep myself with my arm positioning, adjust the weight in my feet (with jazz shoes ;) ) in preparation to spin for as many rotations as I can do from teh momentum I get with as good balance as possible

Something else to think about, it that azzey's style is probably a smooth transitioning style, very different from the dynamic, transitions of other styles, so the rules for using momentum do change a bit from lead to lead

I find this tip applies more with smooth mambo dancers than with flashy LA style leads, which are both fun

[alemana]

it's interesting to read these comments about styling. i often feel i let the leader down if i don't style it up - like that's the distinction between a beginner and a more advanced person, so i better bring it on.

wouldn't you (leader) get bored dancing with a competent but unstyled follower, eventually? or no?

[africana]

it's interesting to read these comments about styling. i often feel i let the leader down if i don't style it up - like that's the distinction between a beginner and a more advanced person, so i better bring it on.

wouldn't you (leader) get bored dancing with a competent but unstyled follower, eventually? or no? Iknow what you mean.

Some styles allow more space to style than others. that's why following is not easy, you have to adjust the type and quantity of styling according to the lead's dance style, height, the music and even the people around you (don't wanna poke any eyes ;0)

Most hand-held leads require minimal styling, whereas other leads that let go a lot can accomodate more stlying

And then there are leads that accommodate any type of styling 8)

[Big10]

it's interesting to read these comments about styling. i often feel i let the leader down if i don't style it up - like that's the distinction between a beginner and a more advanced person, so i better bring it on.

wouldn't you (leader) get bored dancing with a competent but unstyled follower, eventually? or no?
That wouldn't bore me. One advantage of being a leader is that we can avoid boredom by choosing moves/patterns we enjoy. The follower's lack of styling has little impact on that. So, as long as the follower isn't constantly interfering with my leads, then I really don't care if she does lots of styling or none at all. The only time I "care" is when I release the woman to do some shines. I do get a little more enjoyment if the woman can dance/style on her own, as opposed to the deer-in-the-headlights look :shock: that indicates she wants to me to lead her again after just one or two 8-counts (especially if the music makes me feel like taking a few more 8-counts to do some shines of my own).

By the way, here is Big10's simple tip: The best styling "move" you can use is a smile. :D I have had plenty of dances with beginners that I would consider great dances simply because the music was good and the follower (1) was on beat, (2) followed what I led, and (3) appeared to be enjoying herself based on occasional/frequent smiles. Yes, it's cool if the woman can do stuff with her arms or hips or whatever, but I'd rather see somebody smiling with no extra movement, rather than plenty of moves from somebody who looks like she's concentrating too hard on what should be a fun dance.

Some leaders may want something different (styling-wise) from the followers than I do, particularly if the leader is using the dance to show off to onlookers. However, since I usually focus on my partner first and foremost, then all I'm looking for is some indication that she is enjoying the dance with me. Certain followers indicate that by showing they are comfortable enough to pull some styling moves out of their "bag of tricks" 8) :twisted: , whereas other followers might just smile back at me, which, as I have stated, is really all I need to keep me happy. :wink:

[azzey]

This is very true, the dance feels different and usually great when I cooperate with the lead's momentum, only exceptions are when I feel it's too fast or rough then I hold back. I dislike giving over my body to be thrown around. It can be dangerous both to him and to me, and even to bystanders
Also when the lead if off beat (happens often enough) I don't move at the lead's momentum all the time :? that's just my personal preference


These are sensible precautions.


Something else to think about, it that azzey's style is probably a smooth transitioning style, very different from the dynamic, transitions of other styles, so the rules for using momentum do change a bit from lead to lead

I find this tip applies more with smooth mambo dancers than with flashy LA style leads, which are both fun

Funny you should say that because my main style is LA! :lol:

Between LA and NY/Mambo there are significant differences in power that the leader provides and the follower requires to turn. In LA the follower will match his power with her own, however what I said still applies:

if the follower isn't in sync with the leader it's going to be even more noticeable the more power you use and the faster you dance!

[azzey]

One thing that I have to say here is that I agree with most of the points here - however I think that in the most part that the teachers are to blame for these not being adhered to as strongly as they should be. If the teacher does not explain these / highlight the importance of them then how are the followers (and the leads for their part) supposed to know? I'm more aware of this now that I'm teaching myself and it really does take time and patience to break down every single bit of the lead / follow and put the emphasis on the correct points - but it's worth it!! Without it the students won't learn - not through fault on their part - but because they've never been told or just haven't been told how important these things are...this is why a good dancer does not necessarily a good instructor make - you need to be able to convey these things - week after week sometimes to make sure they realise the important elements of following and leading.

JMHO :D

Totally agree! ..and then there are the followers who after years of good instruction pointing these things out disregard them because.. [select your stock phrase]:

"I'm a real dancer"
"Honey, I'm a **** style dancer" <-- insert style here
"I'm just expressing the music, you should really learn how to express the music too" (I am you just don't notice it since you're off-beat and out of sync with me and the music and don't realise it!)
etc etc

Had the last one recently from an off-beat follower.

Btw, I'm interested to know what you disagreed with?

[azzey]

it's interesting to read these comments about styling. i often feel i let the leader down if i don't style it up - like that's the distinction between a beginner and a more advanced person, so i better bring it on.

wouldn't you (leader) get bored dancing with a competent but unstyled follower, eventually? or no?

The distinction between a relative beginner and more advanced dancer is dancing and styling with *control*.

[macha]

Ugh. Y'all are doin' this to me and I start salsa lessons this Monday?

I think I'm gonna go hide my pale self somewhere.

[africana]

"I'm a real dancer"
"Honey, I'm a **** style dancer" <-- insert style here
"I'm just expressing the music, you should really learn how to express the music too" (I am you just don't notice it since you're off-beat and out of sync with me and the music and don't realise it!)
etc etc

Had the last one recently from an off-beat follower.
:lol: :evil: don'tcha just hate that??

Btw, I'm interested to know what you disagreed with? I think you made excellent points but as you later caveat-ed your view is also influenced by your styling, which happens to be smooth flowing even if it is a variant of LA style

We agree that the momentum type will change from lead to lead, but I add that some expect the follow to match or even generate momentum...the main point is that followers must adapt to the different style-ings but at the same time have regard for personal safety (and for me, timing), because not all leads make that a priority

[alemana]

macha, if i were you i would ban myself from the salsa area of this forum for at least six months. especially if you're the overthinking type (like me.) this may be controversial, but i honestly think beginners shouldn't spend one second worrying about what we're talking about here. not because beginners can't or don't style, but because they need to focus on

1. hearing and feeling the beat and the music
2. learning the basic steps
3. learing the fundamentals of their role as lead or follow

that said, enjoy your first lesson :)

[macha]

... Thanks... I think...

See you next year, then, when I can sit at the grownup table!

[africana]

macha, if i were you i would ban myself from the salsa area of this forum for at least six months. especially if you're the overthinking type (like me.) this may be controversial, but i honestly think beginners shouldn't spend one second worrying about what we're talking about here. not controversial, I actually agree! (that's the reason I don't 100% acquiese to the leads' "wish list" here)

fun and dance first!

[macha]

Is there a salsa beginners forum, then, please? Thanks.

[africana]

no forum necessary
just stop reading! stop thinking!!! :P :lol:

[Sagitta]

... Thanks... I think...

See you next year, then, when I can sit at the grownup table! NOpe!! :x Stop putting yourself down. We all started somewhere and there is no beginners table IMO. This is how cliques get started and perpetuated. :cry:

[Sagitta]

macha, if i were you i would ban myself from the salsa area of this forum for at least six months. especially if you're the overthinking type (like me.) this may be controversial, but i honestly think beginners shouldn't spend one second worrying about what we're talking about here. not controversial, I actually agree! (that's the reason I don't 100% acquiese to the leads' "wish list" here)

fun and dance first!

I actually want to know everything...which is why I liked df as I started as a beginner in salsa. It didn't mean that I did everything or tried to...but I was aware of my progress and better able to channel myself towards having a more effective and fun learning experience. But, that's me.

One piece of advice. Listen to the music as much as you can. Has made a big difference with any dance that I have tried and am learning. Rather just ahve it playing as background music...you don't even have to actively listen to it.

[macha]

THANK YOU, Sagitta. As you might have guessed, I wrote, backspaced, rewrote, re-backspaced, and wrote again on that one.

I think the comment wasn't made to be purposely rude, but it was definitely insensitive, and it seems- and I may be wrong- to have been made by someone who has forgotten what it is like to be a "lowly" beginner, and who doesn't want to be troubled by us slow newbies blocking LOD... in other words, botching their shines with our ineptitude. Don't worry- I don't plan to take my glow-in-the-dark, rhythmless rotundity to any salsa venue any time soon, your floors are safe for now.

I know that I most definitely would never say "come back in six months when you have a seat, kiddo" to someone wanting to ride a horse. That's a GOOD way to turn people off from a hobby we all love and all want to share, horses, dancing, rugby, or whatever.

Again, thanks. I'm glad I wasn't alone in interpreting it in the manner I did.

[africana]

---

[macha]

I think the comment wasn't made to be purposely rude, but it was definitely insensitive, and it seems- and I may be wrong- to have been made by someone who has forgotten what it is like to be a "lowly" beginner

Now you see from where I'm coming, though. Sorry to go all nuts (and this is why I over-backspaced at first, and probably should have continued to do so), but it definitely LOOKED alarmingly contradictory and klutz-unfriendly.

I now know my assumption was wrong, and therefore move to strike from the record the aforemepasted quote.

[cocodrilo]

I was reading a lot of information on salsa when I was a beginner and had no idea what people were talking about. You just gotta go out there and experience it. It is the music, how you move to it, and no one is going to be able to express that better than on the dance floor. So I did what was most exciting to me, as a salsa newbie- I spent a lot of time dancing salsa and less time reading about salsa!

These posts shouldn't intimidate you, Macha. They should inspire you. Good luck, because you are going to LOVE salsa! 8)

[Sagitta]

I think the comment wasn't made to be purposely rude, but it was definitely insensitive, and it seems- and I may be wrong- to have been made by someone who has forgotten what it is like to be a "lowly" beginner

Now you see from where I'm coming, though. Sorry to go all nuts (and this is why I over-backspaced at first, and probably should have continued to do so), but it definitely LOOKED alarmingly contradictory and klutz-unfriendly.

I now know my assumption was wrong, and therefore move to strike from the record the aforemepasted quote. No problemo. That's what we all are here for. :wink: 8) You are right in that it wasn't meant to be "alarmingly contradictory and klutz-unfriendly."

As coco said...don't be intimidated by the talk. Hope you have fun at your first lesson. Just think that because you have df you are alreday ahead of the curve of all those who don't have us.

:)

[MacMoto]

it's interesting to read these comments about styling. i often feel i let the leader down if i don't style it up - like that's the distinction between a beginner and a more advanced person, so i better bring it on.

wouldn't you (leader) get bored dancing with a competent but unstyled follower, eventually? or no?

The distinction between a relative beginner and more advanced dancer is dancing and styling with *control*.
You are absolutely right Azzey. I'll get there one day (I think)... :roll: :oops:

[Danish Guy]

Tip of the day

If you are in doubt if the leader wants you to turn left or right, then don’t.

He is properly trying to lay the hands over your head, without you turning in the process.