Man's head position in Viennese Waltz

[DanceMentor]

I was watching the pros compete at the Hotlanta Dance Challenge last night. During the Viennese Waltz, it seemed apparent that all of the men looked against the line of dance around step 5 of the Natural Turn. Am I right? Does anyone know the answer?

[DanceMentor]

It's been eight years and I am still waiting for a reply!!!

But also, what about changes in the lady's head during the Viennese Waltz?

[Partner Dancer]

It's been eight years and I am still waiting for a reply!!!

But also, what about changes in the lady's head during the Viennese Waltz?

Shouldn't the answer be obvious? Each partner's head is were it needs to
be to achieve the desired movement, in terms of travel, turn, smoothness,
stability, effort, inter-partner force, athleticism, dizziness, etc.. The head
position is reflected in and compensated by the rest of the body, as well as
the body of the partner. Nobody ever asks a driver where his/her hand or
foot is when making a left turn, because there are too many factors to
consider, including the capabilities and characteristics of the car, the
road condition, etc.; the hands or feet are where they need to be to
negotiate the turn.

Within the above context, since step 4 is the backing step in a Natural
turn, that's when a dancer would be roughly looking back LOD. By
step 5, the head would be looking roughly back diagonal center. I
believe that's the case here...

youtube watch?v=YcaYFLeKwJA

[Angel HI]

I don't mean to be testy, but it really bothers me when replies begin with statements like, "shouldn't it be obvious" (third time tonight by different posters in various threads). 1- it really belittles the asker, and 2- it adds nothing to the reply.

Now, asking forgiveness for my mini-rant, :notworth: moving the heads, especially for the lady is a common exaggeration in the VW. Partner Dancer is correct in that the heads are where they are to facillitate the movement, and there are but 2 in VW. The left rotation is a greater orbit than the right rotation and thus requires a slightly --very slightly-- more leftward posture of the man's headline. The right rotation, being a smaller one is where we see most of the error, and probably is the reason for the post in the first place. Often, men will effect the same extended leftward headline (probably trying to make the topline appear more grand, IDK), when dancing into step 4 of the right turn. It really just puts undue tension on the turn and does nothing for the aesthetics at all.

[fascination]

I would love to hear a discussion of ladies' head on VW

[govnu]

But also, what about changes in the lady's head during the Viennese Waltz?

For Left Foot Forward or Backward Closed Changes, lady could turn her head to right.

However, I check the limited resources I have, from Ms Caterina Arzenton onward, all the World Professional Standard Champions keep their heads on their left sides.

Of course, some heads have the metronome swing actions at the end of the 3rd step of turn.

[vit]

Probably every dancer has slightly different style here

Watching Mirko's video posted above, it is evident that position of his head in relation to his body is slightly changing during natural turns. At the beginning of the turn, head is pointing leftward, almost in direction of his left hand. Somewhere between steps 2 and 3 he start turning the head somewhat to the right, so at step 4 he is looking almost in direction of Monica's head. Then, his head gradually drifts leftwards again. It is hard to observe and describe this, even watching in slow motion, because these things are 3D. Also, it is evident that movement of his head slightly differs from turn to turn, affected also by geometry of the room in the Himawari studio I suppose ...

[Piggles]

I like change the direction of my head in VW. No real rhyme or reason for it, I just get bored holding the same position and move my head to mix it up. I usually do it after I've gone at least once around the floor so that the judges can see that I know (or don't know...) how to hold my head in the traditional position.

[madmaximus]

Shouldn't the answer be obvious? . . .

In ballroom dance, what seems obvious is often not the real answer...





m

[madmaximus]

I would love to hear a discussion of ladies' head on VW

In this regard, there are guidelines in the rotation of the torso and the rotation of the head (and its management) ...

IMO, it's just not taught as widely.

[just like guidelines for releasing toes, heels, etc... my rusty brain seems to think I posted that a loooooong time ago, but is unsure :) ]







m

[fascination]

I gues I know what to do with my idle time :)

[Partner Dancer]

I don't mean to be testy, but it really bothers me when replies begin with statements like, "shouldn't it be obvious" (third time tonight by different posters in various threads). 1- it really belittles the asker, and 2- it adds nothing to the reply.

Now, asking forgiveness for my mini-rant, :notworth: moving the heads, especially

It really bothers me when replies begin with "I don't mean to be
testy" and "immediately asking forgiveness" since expressions of
emotions contribute little to technical insight. :-)

Given that the OP has over 6600 posts and has at least 8 years of
dance experience, it's not unreasonable to point out that certain
subject matters should have become "obvious" simply from
exposure. I've come to believe that the way ballroom dancing, or
perhaps partner dancing in general, is passed down/on often
stunts the ability to figure things out for oneself.

[Partner Dancer]

In ballroom dance, what seems obvious is often not the real answer...
m

Partially because of the way ballroom dance is "taught." The real answer
ultimately lies within, but many dancers are taught/told to forever
depend on higher powers.

[Partner Dancer]

I like change the direction of my head in VW. No real rhyme or reason for it, I just get bored holding the same position and move my head to mix it up. I usually do it after I've gone at least once around the floor so that the judges can see that I know (or don't know...) how to hold my head in the traditional position.

How do you think your partner feels with the aimless head shifting?
How do you think a (truly good) judge would rate it, in particular
assessing why it's happening?

[DL]

Partially because of the way ballroom dance is "taught." The real answer
ultimately lies within, but many dancers are taught/told to forever
depend on higher powers.

Speaking for myself:

I'm fairly interested in a discussion of the man's head position in VW. I'm really not interested at all in a discussion of 'the way ballroom dance is "taught"'.

[clumsy fellow]

Speaking for myself:

I'm fairly interested in a discussion of the man's head position in VW. I'm really not interested at all in a discussion of 'the way ballroom dance is "taught"'.

Ditto, 'cept I am REALLY interested in the man's head position.

[clumsy fellow]

It really bothers me when replies begin with "I don't mean to be
testy" and "immediately asking forgiveness" since expressions of
emotions contribute little to technical insight. :-)


. . . and I am still waiting for your technical insight.

[clumsy fellow]

Within the above context, since step 4 is the backing step in a Natural
turn, that's when a dancer would be roughly looking back LOD. By
step 5, the head would be looking roughly back diagonal center. I
believe that's the case here...

youtube watch?v=YcaYFLeKwJA

. . . Step 5 - with pressure on ball of the right foot, right foot pointing diagonal center, hip flexor raised to partner and center turned towards partner; isn't obvious where the head would be.

Your turn.

[Piggles]

How do you think your partner feels with the aimless head shifting?
How do you think a (truly good) judge would rate it, in particular
assessing why it's happening?


My "aimless" head shifting? That's a rather opinionated comment....

As a matter of interest, he likes it and asks me to do it more frequently. Reason being, it tends to keep me looser and more relaxed through the repetition of the figures.

Based on my results, my judges haven't seemed to mind it. When I win, I've deserved it and when I lose I've deserved it too. Whether I turned my head 45s into VW wasn't why I won or lost.

[latingal]

Partner Dancer, we welcome all our members' insights and opinions as long as they do not disrespect others while expressing them. We realize the written word at times does not express the nuances we perceive when speaking in person, so tone may be misinterpreted. So we ask all our member to err on the side of caution when writing posts that might be interpreted as confrontational.

[Partner Dancer]

. . . Step 5 - with pressure on ball of the right foot, right foot pointing diagonal center, hip flexor raised to partner and center turned towards partner; isn't obvious where the head would be.

Your turn.

I don't think the way I turn would be the same way you turn. :-)

There is this common notion that the nose follows the toes, so
you've pretty much answered your own question.

It is quite interesting, though, how many varied opinions there
are about how just the "small" handful of movements in VW
should be done. There are coaches who believe the right foot
should be a flat side-step draw, those that like toe-heel, etc.,
irrespective of what the ISTD books may say. There are those
that believe in an oval travel around the floor, there are those
that think a diagonal is better, etc.. There are those that like
being very still in the upper body, there are those that think
minor "twitches/pulses" enhance the movement, etc..

Bottom line, as VIT observes, is that everyone (and every
partnership) does it a little differently.

[Partner Dancer]

My "aimless" head shifting? That's a rather opinionated comment....

As a matter of interest, he likes it and asks me to do it more frequently. Reason being, it tends to keep me looser and more relaxed through the repetition of the figures.

Based on my results, my judges haven't seemed to mind it. When I win, I've deserved it and when I lose I've deserved it too. Whether I turned my head 45s into VW wasn't why I won or lost.

My translation of your "no rhyme or reason," that's all.

If it works for you (and your partnership), then that's great.

[madmaximus]

okay...fair warning... technical content follows, written after several vodka martinis.


How the head is held through a series of figures can make the difference in showing smoothness and calm transition through the three dimensional space that is the dancefloor.

This is no exception in VW, where the quiet-ness of head-travel will offset the frenetic movement of the feet.
Done correctly, how the head travels becomes the focal point, so the other frantic stuff going on fades into the background, the net effect (we hope) is that the movement exudes "quiet flow".

General Guidelines:

Natural movements--fwd half: the head goes into the turn first, before the body.
That is to say that the head is turned into the general direction of the turn before the rotation of the body happens--and is held in one general direction for 1.5-1.75 beats of 3 (1st part) and then slowly settles in the remainder of 3 (2nd part).
Backward half is the reverse (body first, head stays longer).

Reverse movements--fwd & backward halves: the body goes into the turn first, before the head.
That is to say that the body goes into the turn while the head is still held in one general direction (for as long as possible).
Mostly with the same duration as the natural movement.

It is when we become more advanced, that adjustments are made for a longer first part and shorter second part of each half and blended into the following half.

The key, in both instances, is to hold the direction of the head and eyes (not quite spotting) in a single direction as long as practical and aesthetic as possible.


So, for the 1-6 of the NT for example,
ROUGHLY... before 1, the head already starts rotating towards wall, and by 3 is transitioning from looking slightly over DW against LOD to against LOD. from 3-6, one keeps the head from the point of departure (looking against LOD)as long as possible before turning to looking towards slightly DW off LOD.

While these guidelines can apply to both lady and gent, the lady's movement tends to be less pronounced (typically the decision of the dancers, more than aesthetics).
Obviously there's more nuance to it than all this, but it should be enough to get experimenting.


(santa maria, I hope this all makes sense)... :)






m

[vit]

I'm not sure that Mirko Gozzoli (on video at the beginning of the thread) is following these rules :???:

[madmaximus]

aww, cheer up.

look at these guidelines as starting points for us mere mortals :)

when you get to become mirko-esque, then you can write new rules for the rest of us... ;)





m

[vit]

Well, trying to match movements of his head in VW is way easier than trying to match movements of the rest of his body ;)

[Joe]

Partner Dancer, we welcome all our members' insights and opinions as long as they do not disrespect others while expressing them. We realize the written word at times does not express the nuances we perceive when speaking in person, so tone may be misinterpreted. So we ask all our member to err on the side of caution when writing posts that might be interpreted as confrontational.
Is it possible to also have a PSA instructing people to not take things personally when others take their words literally?

[Larinda McRaven]

I teach a very pronounced and deliberate movement for the ladies head. Being in just the right place at the right time is very helpful to the momentum of the partnership. The deal with the ladies head is the amount of her leftward stretch is already so great that her hanges are harder to locate. Where as the man is vertical (and taller) so any changes to him is much more visible. But in reality the ladies head (since it is further out on the circumference) is hugely responsible for the momentum .

[Piggles]

My translation of your "no rhyme or reason," that's all.

If it works for you (and your partnership), then that's great.


Apologies for being irritable, hopefully no harm done. ;)

With the repetition of the VW figures, I find that I tend to tighten up in the second half of the music. My back starts to tense and I show signs of losing my fluidity of movement. So moving my head (while keeping my top line and connection consistent) helps my body stay relaxed and light. In my case (and level), I figure the end justifies the means.

[latingal]

Is it possible to also have a PSA instructing people to not take things personally when others take their words literally?

okay, you're over my head on this one....

[Larinda McRaven]

Apologies for being irritable, hopefully no harm done. ;)

With the repetition of the VW figures, I find that I tend to tighten up in the second half of the music. My back starts to tense and I show signs of losing my fluidity of movement. So moving my head (while keeping my top line and connection consistent) helps my body stay relaxed and light. In my case (and level), I figure the end justifies the means.

Moving your head in relation to your body is correct. The frame, neck, and spine are not SET or fixed. They SHOULD move and create different shapes while you move in VW.

If Partner Dance was questioning the "randomness" of the movement I could understand. But the fact "that you move your head" is not wrong.

[Partner Dancer]

Originally Posted by clumsy fellow
. . . Step 5 - with pressure on ball of the right foot, right foot pointing diagonal center, hip flexor raised to partner and center turned towards partner; isn't obvious where the head would be.

There is this common notion that the nose follows the toes, so
you've pretty much answered your own question.



A little obscure insight that you may find useful or may
reject outright...

You mention that on 5, your right foot is pointed roughly
diagonal center, whereas I mentioned that it should be
roughly back diagonal center, and I'm assuming this is
what we both mean to say.

This relates to the overall body position and how you
intend to achieve the "revolving" travel (on 123). In
Latin/Rhythm dancing, pretty much every experienced
dancer understands and uses the technique of "wind
up" to achieve easy rotations/turns/spins. This entails
leaving some body part(s) "behind" so the ensuing
action is easily achieved. In Smooth/Standard, the
"same" kind of thing should be going on, except these
wind ups often occur with the body/spine tilted.

If by 5, one's right foot is already pointed diagonal center,
then by 6, one's left foot is likely almost LOD. This
position negates any ability to use the body naturally
to get around, making the revolution forced and rough,
with the body getting there early in a rush (as well as
rushing the partner).

If by 5, one's right foot is more or less back
diagonal center and by 6 both feet are roughly pointing
center, then there is lots of body "wind up" that can
be used for the 123. The body would be tilted sideways
somewhat (opposite LOD) on 6. The head plays nicely
in this action.

Something to think about. It was the major eye-opener
for me when I started doing VW.

[Larinda McRaven]

In Latin/Rhythm dancing, pretty much every experienced
dancer understands and uses the technique of "wind
up" to achieve easy rotations/turns/spins.

In Smooth/Standard, the "same" kind of thing should be going on, except these
wind ups often occur with the body/spine tilted.


The one moves in latin is exactly opposite of the way one moves in standard. They are not the same. One has another body in its space, the other is solo with space available on all sides. One travels, the other is stationary.

5 of the natural for the man is pointing DC. There is no need to underturn in order to conserve a body part.

[Partner Dancer]

Apologies for being irritable, hopefully no harm done. ;)

With the repetition of the VW figures, I find that I tend to tighten up in the second half of the music. My back starts to tense and I show signs of losing my fluidity of movement. So moving my head (while keeping my top line and connection consistent) helps my body stay relaxed and light. In my case (and level), I figure the end justifies the means.

What you originally describe as no rhyme or reason is probably
not really what you are doing. You are "experimenting" with
better movement by using your head (and perhaps other parts)
to balance and counter-balance better.

A lot of dancers do fine in VW the first or second time around
the floor and then peter out because they use too much force
and momentum and are too rigid. This is just my general
observation not having to do with anyone specifically, especially
since I don't know anyone.

BTW, my original questions to you were partly out of curiosity
and partly to get some thoughts running. For instance, the
answers to how your head movement is viewed by your
partner could have been:

1) I don't think it affects him
2) We don't discuss such things
3) He'll just have to deal with it
4) He compensates nicely
5) He really likes it for variety
6) He really likes it for technical reasons
7) etc..

[vit]

If by 5, one's right foot is already pointed diagonal center,
then by 6, one's left foot is likely almost LOD. This
position negates any ability to use the body naturally
to get around, making the revolution forced and rough,
with the body getting there early in a rush (as well as
rushing the partner).


Don't agree with this part. Pointing right foot DC on 5, while body is turned aprox. to the center feels completely natural. At 6 left foot is closed to the right and both feet and body are turned aprox. DC

However, it's different for the partner on 5 (or for man at 2) where left foot is turned aprox. to the wall at the beginning and there is some additional rotation of the left foot while the right one is closing on 6 (3)

From my remembering, it's also described this way in the books and I see no reason to change this

[Partner Dancer]

Don't agree with this part. Pointing right foot DC on 5, while body is turned aprox. to the center feels completely natural. At 6 left foot is closed to the right and both feet and body are turned aprox. DC



Ah! But in which direction are you traveling (horizontally across
floor)?

[Larinda McRaven]

"Horizontal" is parallel to the ground.... it is not an alignment term or a directional term. It is not a term that applies to anything here, unless you are talking about the lack of rise and fall? Even then the shoulders are not "horizontal" since there is sway on the natural turn. Or on a broader application "horizontal" applies to every dance because we travel along the floor.

What are you really asking... ? Pick a better word than horizontal... because that really doesn't mean anything here.

[vit]

Ah! But in which direction are you traveling (horizontally across
floor)?

I'm also not sure (like Larinda) about your question; my answer would be that these alignments are for usual situation when the couple is dancing along LOD (which of course isn't exactly straight line in most parts of the room, because dimensions of the room are limited)

[Piggles]

What you originally describe as no rhyme or reason is probably
not really what you are doing. You are "experimenting" with
better movement by using your head (and perhaps other parts)
to balance and counter-balance better.

A lot of dancers do fine in VW the first or second time around
the floor and then peter out because they use too much force
and momentum and are too rigid. This is just my general
observation not having to do with anyone specifically, especially
since I don't know anyone.



Ahhhh! I get it. I made a bad assumption that it was clear I was turning my head during natural turn...Doh! "And when you assume..." :oops: My head-turning is only done within the context of natural body movement, however whether I do it on a corner or half way down floor is completely random. If there are spectators at the corner of the floor watching us, I'll change my head position from L-R-L (as the figure rotates) to try and maintain eye contact with them. But I'd do the same if I had fans half way down the long wall too (it's just eye contact is much shorter then). That's what I meant by random... ;)

The judging thing is also interesting. I've taken coaching with a few of my judges and their preferences (to some extent) mirror the rules when they competed. My coaches who competed, say, 20+ years ago seem to prefer my head left more often than not, however coaching from those who competed, say, 10 years ago like the head movement to R. I should say that I haven't received coaching in VW from any of my judges. But my first two walls of open Slow Waltz were reviewed, and not only did opinions differ between the two camps, but opinions changed in the course of a year. So... I try to do what feels best/most natural for me/us on the floor, and hope my judges like the end result.

I dance pro/am with no real plans to look for an amateur partner (based on personal circumstances and location). My teacher likes how light I feel in VW when I let my head move with my body and would like me to do it more often. I hold back a little for two reasons: 1. I like to keep the movement as an accent later on when I need a break; 2. I'm not altogether sure of how different judges feel about the movement yet.

[Partner Dancer]

"Horizontal" is parallel to the ground.... it is not an alignment term or a directional term. It is not a term that applies to anything here, unless you are talking about the lack of rise and fall? Even then the shoulders are not "horizontal" since there is sway on the natural turn. Or on a broader application "horizontal" applies to every dance because we travel along the floor.

What are you really asking... ? Pick a better word than horizontal... because that really doesn't mean anything here.

Horizontal, as in a horizontal plane parallel to the floor. IOW,
as viewed from a ceiling camera to watch billiard balls move on
a (horizontal) pool table for their paths of travel. The same
view used for descriptions of alignments in the dance texts.

Could also be called lateral travel or movement.

[Partner Dancer]

I'm also not sure (like Larinda) about your question; my answer would be that these alignments are for usual situation when the couple is dancing along LOD (which of course isn't exactly straight line in most parts of the room, because dimensions of the room are limited)

Before I go into a diatribe about this issue, let's try to see if we
even concur about some basics of movement.

Suppose 12 o'clock is FW (forward along wall), 6 is BW (back along
wall), 7:30 is BDC, 9 is C, 10:30 is DC, etc... You mention that
you would end count 6 roughly with both feet pointed DC (10:30)
and this would probably correspond to some (horizontal) location X
past halfway along the wall. Say you travel some 4 feet on the
ensuing 123 and end up at location Y on count 3. At what clock
position (angle) would Y be with respect to X (remember your
feet are pointed at 10:30)?

Note that I'm purposely avoiding the use of "LOD" as it isn't
meaningful due to the changing angles.

[Partner Dancer]

...If there are spectators at the corner of the floor watching us, I'll change my head position from L-R-L (as the figure rotates) to try and maintain eye contact with them. But I'd do the same if I had fans half way down the long wall too (it's just eye contact is much shorter then). That's what I meant by random... ;)


So it's not random, since you're using your head for exhibitionism. ;-)


The judging thing is also interesting. I've taken coaching with a few of my judges and their preferences (to some extent) mirror the rules when they competed. My coaches who competed, say, 20+ years ago seem to prefer my head left more often than not, however coaching from those who competed, say, 10 years ago like the head movement to R. I should say that I haven't received coaching in VW from any of my judges. But my first two walls of open Slow Waltz were reviewed, and not only did opinions differ between the two camps, but opinions changed in the course of a year. So... I try to do what feels best/most natural for me/us on the floor, and hope my judges like the end result.


I feel the same way. There is probably more randomness in
the judging than in your aimless head shifts.


I dance pro/am with no real plans to look for an amateur partner (based on personal circumstances and location). My teacher likes how light I feel in VW when I let my head move with my body and would like me to do it more often. I hold back a little for two reasons: 1. I like to keep the movement as an accent later on when I need a break; 2. I'm not altogether sure of how different judges feel about the movement yet.

Advantages of pro-am: am gets (much) more experienced/capable
pro partner who practices full-time with others.

Disadvantage: am must (mostly) dance the way the pro dances
and usually does not get enough customization/adaptation/
attention, especially if pro has many students or career goals
conflicting with teaching that am. Unless am is rich, the pro-am
practice time is very limited.

[Larinda McRaven]

Ah! But in which direction are you traveling (horizontally across
floor)?

Horizontal, as in a horizontal plane parallel to the floor. IOW,
as viewed from a ceiling camera to watch billiard balls move on
a (horizontal) pool table for their paths of travel. The same
view used for descriptions of alignments in the dance texts.

Right.... we all are moving horizontally when we dance across the floor. What's the point of your question, because that has nothing to do with alignments, and you assertion for the man to be underturned a whopping 1/4 less than the book alignment.




Could also be called lateral travel or movement.

Lateral means sideways... out of the sides of your body. That has nothing to do with horizontal.

[Warren J. Dew]

I was watching the pros compete at the Hotlanta Dance Challenge last night. During the Viennese Waltz, it seemed apparent that all of the men looked against the line of dance around step 5 of the Natural Turn. Am I right? Does anyone know the answer?
In viennese waltz, the head rotates continuously. With six steps per full rotation, the head will on average rotate through 60 degrees during each step, so it's difficult to associate the head facing with a single direction for each step.

However, what does happen throughout most of step 5 is that the gentleman's head is stretched against line of dance, even if he is looking more towards the center of the floor by the time the right foot is placed. The head stretch counterbalances the lady as she swings past.

I don't think this is obvious for most dancers; using the gentleman's head weight to counterbalance the body action is a fairly advanced technique that many dancers never really get to.

If by 5, one's right foot is already pointed diagonal center, then by 6, one's left foot is likely almost LOD.
This does not follow. The right foot is placed pointing - not facing - diagonal center on step 5, but the left foot is still pointing roughly against line of dance, with the body in between. The body rotates as the left foot is drawn in, but the right foot does not rotate, so at the point of foot closure for step 6, both feet are facing diagonal center. This leaves room for further rotation of the body as the right foot steps out along the line of dance for the following step 1.

My coaches who competed, say, 20+ years ago seem to prefer my head left more often than not, however coaching from those who competed, say, 10 years ago like the head movement to R. I should say that I haven't received coaching in VW from any of my judges. But my first two walls of open Slow Waltz were reviewed, and not only did opinions differ between the two camps, but opinions changed in the course of a year.
Viennese waltz is a very different dance from slow waltz, so the same principles do not apply. Here are the world champions from 10 years ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2YrvW9B7cM

I don't think you'll find any head turns on the lady as long as they are moving in closed dance position, though she has some very nice head changes when they are in shadow position and when they do some stationary shapes at the end.

[madmaximus]

Before I go into a diatribe about this issue, let's try to see if we
even concur about some basics of movement.

A diatribe is a bitter, forceful verbal attack on another.

I am not sure why you would feel that VIT would merit one, for a simple & reasonable statement for clarification.

?


Suppose 12 o'clock is FW (forward along wall), 6 is BW (back along
wall), 7:30 is BDC, 9 is C, 10:30 is DC, etc... You mention that
you would end count 6 roughly with both feet pointed DC (10:30)
and this would probably correspond to some (horizontal) location X
past halfway along the wall. Say you travel some 4 feet on the
ensuing 123 and end up at location Y on count 3. At what clock
position (angle) would Y be with respect to X (remember your
feet are pointed at 10:30)?

Note that I'm purposely avoiding the use of "LOD" as it isn't
meaningful due to the changing angles.

I am curious (honest) why you don't think LOD is meaningful due to the changing angles, when almost every dance book (well, the ballroom ones anyway) refer to it precisely BECAUSE of the need to describe the angles taken during travel relative to the room.


Your clock analogy above, requires the assumption of additional parameters, in order for me to understand your question (obviously, speaking only for myself...perhaps others understand it, I don't know):

1. Presumption of a natural turn, reasonable since at 6, your feet are pointed at 10:30.
2. What is the direction of step 1 presumed to be? is it towards 10:30, or towards 12:00?
2. Using your description, are we presuming that 12 o'clock is a constant direction, and not a changing "heading" based on either a) the direction of travel of the dancer, b) the direction of the first step of the dancer. LOD is a constant direction that is typically parallel to the walls of the room (in standard/smooth).



Taking your sample above, suppose my feet (as gent taking a Natural Turn) may be pointing to DC (your 10:30) at step 6, but step 1 might be taken either towards A) DC (your 10:30), or B) down LOD (your 12:00).

(or are you saying that the clock has adjusted/reset direction at step 6, and that step [A] will now be heading towards the NEW 12:00, and step[B] will be heading towards the NEW 2:30?)

Presuming that step 1 is taken DC, then at step 3, my feet will be pointed as "backing DC", but the step 4 can be taken EITHER as "backing DC" (Your 10:30) or "down LOD" (your 12:00).







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[vit]

Before I go into a diatribe about this issue, let's try to see if we
even concur about some basics of movement.

Suppose 12 o'clock is FW (forward along wall), 6 is BW (back along
wall), 7:30 is BDC, 9 is C, 10:30 is DC, etc... You mention that
you would end count 6 roughly with both feet pointed DC (10:30)
and this would probably correspond to some (horizontal) location X
past halfway along the wall. Say you travel some 4 feet on the
ensuing 123 and end up at location Y on count 3. At what clock
position (angle) would Y be with respect to X (remember your
feet are pointed at 10:30)?

Note that I'm purposely avoiding the use of "LOD" as it isn't
meaningful due to the changing angles.

So, when I'm dancing VW, my path along the room roughly resembles a running track on the stadium. It has 2 straight parts along longer sides of the room, and two half-circles near the corners. If the room is smaller, my path would be an elypse or a circle (depending on dimensions of the room), without straight parts

Assuming I'm on the straight part of my path along the room, on the beat 6 I'm turned DC in both points x and y (or 10:30 in your notation), because I'm doing complete turns. If I'm on the curved part of the path, I'm turned approximately 45 degree left from the tangent to that curve in both points x and y and I'm making slightly less than 360 degree (natural) turns

[Partner Dancer]

Assuming I'm on the straight part of my path along the room, on the beat 6 I'm turned DC in both points x and y (or 10:30 in your notation), because I'm doing complete turns. If I'm on the curved part of the path, I'm turned approximately 45 degree left from the tangent to that curve in both points x and y and I'm making slightly less than 360 degree (natural) turns

Good. We agree that the end location Y is about 45 degrees from the
direction of the pointed feet at the start location X. This "wind up"
or "cocked position" is already "not so obvious" to a lot of dancers.

Hence, you'd wonder why I think pointing the feet roughly toward
Center at X is reasonable/desirable. Many years ago, I had a
coach suggest that the Naturals in VW should be danced as a
diamond/diagonal/line rather than oval/ellipse/curve. This was a
revelation to me, as I never considered this option, as it
was an "outside the box" idea that obviously some people believe
in (I don't think it was an original idea). I don't even know
how much overall value that coach/instructor attributed to the
diamond-shaped LOD beyond what he pointed out then, that
the straight paths traveled was the shortest and most direct,
making a couple appear to travel faster then they are in a
competition (with least effort).

Over the years, I've considered the merits/demerits of the diamond
verses that of the oval, and believe the diamond really makes
things easier. In an oval, the couple must keep re-adjusting to the
changing tangent, possibly creating more inter-partner force/friction
than necessary, as the partners get confused on each revolution
as to where the end position Y should be because of curvature.
In a diagonal line, the end position is simply on the line of travel
and the feet pointing-direction is always the same (until reaching
the mid-point of the next wall). It's not unusual to see couples
dancing themselves into the corner of the room and have to do
oddball things to get out (no Spin Turn in VW). A line (directly
to desired destination) also reduces the need to do in-flight
adjustments/corrections.

In practice, something in-between would probably work well.
So, in light of the desire to travel diagonally to the middle
of the next wall, the pointing of feet roughly toward Center
makes sense.

[vit]

Good. We agree that the end location Y is about 45 degrees from the
direction of the pointed feet at the start location X.

Well, I said that in point x, which you defined as being on count 6, my feet are pointing 45 deg left from direction (tangent) in which I'm moving (or let's say the center of the gravity of the couple is moving), and at position y at count 6 of the next bar my feet are also 45 degree left from direction in which I'm moving at that moment (in point y), which is not the same thing as you wrote in quoted sentence

The next step (on 1) will be along the line I'm moving, so it's about 45 degree right of the direction my feet are pointing to on count 6

However, this is off-topic

[Larinda McRaven]

Can we get back on topic please. Head positions.


If you want to start a new thread with revelations and assertions of tangents and coordinates then by all means do so.

[vit]

I'm aware that it went off topic, so I didn't comment the rest of his post, but just wanted to make more clear my previous post

[Larinda McRaven]

I understand.

[Piggles]

Viennese waltz is a very different dance from slow waltz, so the same principles do not apply. Here are the world champions from 10 years ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2YrvW9B7cM

I don't think you'll find any head turns on the lady as long as they are moving in closed dance position, though she has some very nice head changes when they are in shadow position and when they do some stationary shapes at the end.

True enough - I totally agree. I simply brought it up because it seems there's been a recent (recent for me?) trend in VW for the lady to occassionally look R on natural turn. And whether judges like it may depend on how recently they were still competitors. I don't *know* if that's the case; I'm just postulating...

Unfortunately I can't access your link right now, but will do so later this evening.

[Larinda McRaven]

Shaping to pp on natural turns would be a result of the man leading a promenade shape.

There are other shapes that she make (stretches ia perhaps a better word) throughout the reverse and the naturals that help keep the swing and momentum heading in the correct direction... and when done well they produce the look of no movement... but there are lots of movements and shapes and stretches that are going on. Without them the partnership would appear flat and the top would look small. Even if we can't see Lorraine doing them... she is. And that is the beauty, she is doing them but we don't notice.

[Partner Dancer]

A diatribe is a bitter, forceful verbal attack on another.

I am not sure why you would feel that VIT would merit one, for a simple & reasonable statement for clarification.


Looked it up prior to using...

Definition of DIATRIBE
1 archaic : a prolonged discourse
2 : a bitter and abusive speech or piece of writing
3 : ironic or satirical criticism

Shooting for usage #1.

[Partner Dancer]

Can we get back on topic please. Head positions.


If you want to start a new thread with revelations and assertions of tangents and coordinates then by all means do so.

It's all related.

One can't use the head effectively if one isn't clear on where one is
headed. (pun intended) A lot of dancers get dizzy or exhausted
in VW because their head position/usage is not consistent with
the travel and rotation they are doing or need to do.

[vit]

I suppose main problem with getting dizzy, at least at beginner level, is not connected with usage of the head, but because people are dancing VW trying to rotate around the partner, and it's not what this dance is about. A feeling of moving sideways along LOD during the dance should be dominant (at least I was taught that way). Assisting balance with the head is much more advanced stuff

[Larinda McRaven]

Dizzy is a neurolgical response to a stimulated sensory hair cells in the ultricle. When these hairs are triggered and move they send a signal to the brain that says "we are moving". WHen they move in unexpected ways they send a "distress signal" to the brain that says "UH-Oh.. We don't know which way the body is going...Sit Down....SIT DOWN NOW" The "sit down" command is interpreted by the brain as "dizzy".

After repeating the offending movements continually over time your brian learns to ignore the "distress signal".

This is why ballet dancers insist that spotting will cure dizziness. It will be because they repeated it enough times to trick their brains out of freaking out, but not because their head is in some special place at a special time. I learned to not get dizzy because I have shaped my head into turns for the past 20 years. Spotting makes me dizzy because my brain is not accustomed to it as much and the "distress signal" gets through to my brain.

It has nothing to do with putting your head in the right place. It has everything to do with learning to accept the feeling and turn off the response to the distress signal.



Head position is directly related to freeing up momentum to rotate and swing. It is not about dizziness.

[Larinda McRaven]

moving sideways along LOD during the dance should be dominant (at least I was taught that way).

yes, this is correct.

[Piggles]

Dizzy is a neurolgical response to a stimulated sensory hair cells in the ultricle. When these hairs are triggered and move they send a signal to the brain that says "we are moving". WHen they move in unexpected ways they send a "distress signal" to the brain that says "UH-Oh.. We don't know which way the body is going...Sit Down....SIT DOWN NOW" The "sit down" command is interpreted by the brain as "dizzy".

After repeating the offending movements continually over time your brian learns to ignore the "distress signal".
.

Neat-o! I didn't know that. I always wondered why some people got dizzy when spotting and others did not. I'd heard different pro's present various reasons, but Larinda's definately makes the most sense. :p

[Warren J. Dew]

There are other shapes that she make (stretches ia perhaps a better word) throughout the reverse and the naturals that help keep the swing and momentum heading in the correct direction... and when done well they produce the look of no movement... but there are lots of movements and shapes and stretches that are going on. Without them the partnership would appear flat and the top would look small. Even if we can't see Lorraine doing them... she is. And that is the beauty, she is doing them but we don't notice.
I would agree with that. None of those stretches amount to looking to the right on naturals, though.

This is why ballet dancers insist that spotting will cure dizziness. It will be because they repeated it enough times to trick their brains out of freaking out, but not because their head is in some special place at a special time. I learned to not get dizzy because I have shaped my head into turns for the past 20 years. Spotting makes me dizzy because my brain is not accustomed to it as much and the "distress signal" gets through to my brain.

It has nothing to do with putting your head in the right place. It has everything to do with learning to accept the feeling and turn off the response to the distress signal.
I agree it doesn't have to do with head position per se. I don't think it's just a matter of getting used to it, though. As one learns to dance ballroom better, one learns to dance more smoothly, and the more smoothly one dances, the less the otoliths move around, and the less chance they have to cause dizziness.

I wouldn't be surprised if the subtle shaping you mention helps in this respect by making the movement smoother.

[Larinda McRaven]

I would agree with that. None of those stretches amount to looking to the right on naturals, though.

Right. I stretch and move my head A LOT in viennese. I never look to the right on naturals though.

[Partner Dancer]

Dizzy is a neurolgical response to a stimulated sensory hair cells in the ultricle. When these hairs are triggered and move they send a signal to the brain that says "we are moving". WHen they move in unexpected ways they send a "distress signal" to the brain that says "UH-Oh.. We don't know which way the body is going...Sit Down....SIT DOWN NOW" The "sit down" command is interpreted by the brain as "dizzy".

After repeating the offending movements continually over time your brian learns to ignore the "distress signal".


The practice/training one does is much more for developing the
neurological/muscular/joint/etc. controls of the body to
maintain (sense of, and physical reality of) balance throughout
the maneuvers than for ignoring distress. The dancer in control
simply has less or no distress to ignore. That's why good
dancers are "relaxed" rather than "uptight."

I would even say that at some point, for the "same" movements,
the body gets rewired enough to not only stop generating
distress (chemical/electrical) signals, but to generate exhilaration/
pleasure signals. One can get a "high" from movement/spins, and
hence the expression "joy of movement."


It has nothing to do with putting your head in the right place. It has everything to do with learning to accept the feeling and turn off the response to the distress signal.

Head position is directly related to freeing up momentum to rotate and swing. It is not about dizziness.

Just ask a gymnast practicing tumbles on a balance beam to
start training with the head tilted to one side, ear touching
shoulder. Does anyone really believe head position doesn't
matter?

[Partner Dancer]

A lot of dancers get dizzy or exhausted
in VW because their head position/usage is not consistent with
the travel and rotation they are doing or need to do.

Note that this statement by no means states that head position
is the _only_ reason for dizziness/exhaustion. A much bigger and
more general reason for dizziness/exhaustion is simply that many
dancers don't devote enough time and effort (and money) to
figuring out what needs to be done.