Bronze Foxtrot - why even teach it?

[DanceMentor]

Before I go in to the reasons for not teaching Bronze Foxtrot, I want to tell you I think it does have a place, but I want to know what you think.

As far as I know (AFAIK), Bronze Foxtrot was pretty much an invention by Arthur Murray. I believe the story goes that he took the Quick Foxtrot (Quickstep) and slowed it down.

When you look at a typical Bronze Syllabus, the first 5 steps are Slow Slow Quick Quick (SSQQ), and then the rest all the way through Gold are SQQ ( at least the majority). When you look at the International Standard version of Foxtrot, they start with Feathers and 3-steps which are Slow Quick Quick (SQQ) and everything that follows is SQQ. When you go to a competition and watch even Bronze students compete they are often dancing SQQ and passing their feet on many of the patterns.

My point: every road leads to SQQ, not SSQQ.

So why do we start by teaching SSQQ?

[msc]

American bronze Waltz and Foxtrot are only useful for wedding couples, where there is often a relatively small floor. Anyone who goes to a ballroom party and uses bronze American foxtrot or waltz will feel awfully intimidated as older couples pass them 4 or 5 times during the song.

The silver Waltz and Foxtrot, with the "open boxes" and travelers and all is OK, though.

International pre-bronze travels substantially, so that's fine too.

[MissAlyssa]

baby steps!

[pygmalion]

That was a short post, MissAlyssa, so I'm not sure what you meant. But I think it was something like this: give people milestones to accomplish on the way to their ultimate goal. It helps to keep people motivated, while they build their dance skills. Was that it? :D

[MissAlyssa]

well you have to start somewhere right?

[pygmalion]

True. And I know a lot of people who never progress beyond bronze -- they have no aspiration to dance at higher levels. But, having completed bronze, they have a whole set of figures, technique and styling to use socially.

[Genesius Redux]

This seemed like a potentially interesting discussion that never quite got off the ground. So I thought I'd bring it up again.

In defense of the bronze foxtrot--practice with the basic really helps new students find their balance. It also facilitates teaching pivots.

On the down side, the bronze foxtrot is pretty dull to dance!

[Blondie]

In defense of the bronze foxtrot--practice with the basic really helps new students find their balance. It also facilitates teaching pivots.



I totally agree with you. Finding center and balance are huge issues for beginners and the foxtrot is NOT an easy dance.

[etchuck]

Well, bronze foxtrot is good for social mixers, especially at dances where there are many "seasoned citizens". :)

However, I will admit, bronze foxtrot is taught in a fairly pedantic way. I mean, who around here aspires to learn more complex steps in American foxtrot? (Okay, this may not be a representative group ;) ). Most people will switch over to international foxtrot and look fairly cool about it. But not only are young folks just not crazy about learning foxtrot, there aren't too many instructors that I would say are enthusiastic about teaching it. Of course I probably don't give them much of a chance, but I want a more complicated step than my triple-twinkle... and I want a damn good teacher who could let me look pretty darn cool doing American fox darn it. :)

Not to mention a partner who wouldn't think doing foxtrot was ... well ... goofy.

[Porfirio Landeros]

As already mentioned in this thread, American bronze foxtrot seems to be packaged this way for a quick solution to a wedding dance, allowing students to take the floor after only a lesson or two.

I think it's also worth mentioning that SSQQ is a good bridge for grouping the timing with basic single-time swing. Because the music for both foxtrot and jitterbug can be simplified into one genre (big band), you can give beginners a smooth dance and a rhythm dance with the same timing.

But I have often wondered what the point SSQQ is for those that aspire to compete. Might as well start those people off with box rhythm and change steps.

Maybe we need to start another dance syllabus: International, American, and social-crash-course.

[etchuck]

I did want to followup...

I had the same issues when I started learning paso doble. I'm thinking... these basic bronze steps are pretty simple and sorta odd. The one redeeming factor was of course the music. But after my instructor started teaching me the more complicated higher bronze-to-silver level steps, I really then started to enjoy it.

Of course I realize a year after taking those lessons with no followup, I can hardly do those basic steps... ;)

How about a class in bronze fox that is "crash course" speed with more "fun" steps? :)

[KevinL]

American bronze Waltz and Foxtrot are only useful for wedding couples, where there is often a relatively small floor. Anyone who goes to a ballroom party and uses bronze American foxtrot or waltz will feel awfully intimidated as older couples pass them 4 or 5 times during the song.

That certainly is not the experience around here. Most people only know bronze waltz and foxtrot, so those people who try to travel that much faster are slowed down by the overwleming numbers of American Bronze dancers.

Kevin

[Sagitta]

Well, over here there are quite a few people who really know how to dance and just slip through the throngs. Then there is the majority who clog up the whole floor.

[dTas]

i didn't find bronze foxtrot usefull until i learned silver and gold foxtrot, and international (if there's any difference).

the bronze actually teaches control and balance, strength and timing. but unfortunately you don't realize how useful it is until you figure out how much balance and control you don't have, how weak your step is, and how ahead of the timing you are.

bronze allows for a lot of styling. the more time you're over a foot the more time you have to style your actions. but again when you're a beginner you have to idea what styling is, yet, so bronze seems dull.

so many times i've had silver students come to me for lessons and have had to back them down to bronze to gain control over their dancing before going forward with silver again. but they were very appreciative of the new found understanding and enjoyed their foxtrol much more.

[Sagitta]

Thanks dtas. Must keep this in mind as I work my way through beginners foxtrot. :)

[DancePoet]

Like dTas's viewpoint on how the basic bronze foxtrot teaches "control and balance, strength and timing". Very good observation! I am experiencing this currently as I progress past the most basic steps, and beginning to discover how much of those four items are part of the patterns I am now beginning to learn. Leaning those basics certainly seems to have helped with those four areas, and perhaps even across the rest of my learning of different styles, too.

[dTas]

thanks, DancePoet, i've found that these 4 things apply to every single dance. there's a lot more time inbetween those beats than most people realize (and dance).

it takes strength to control the body's momentum in order to fully appreciate each step individually and only then can you appreciate them connectively from step to step.

the zen and feung-shway of dancing. :D

you no longer think of dancing as patterns and figures but as individual steps. each step is a pattern/figure of its own which leads to the next step and the next. a regular box becomes a "grouping" of 4 steps (forward, side-together, back, side together) just thinking about it i start swaying in my chair. :lol:

[DancePoet]

Yes! With each step there is a subtle way of leading to the next. I really like what goes on in between touching down on the floor or just before pushing off towards the next position. Dance can be so fluid and transitory if it is viewed as a continued way of motion. The ever flowing movement of life!

[DanceMentor]

I understand your opinions, but please understand this:
(American) Bronze Foxtrot is a completely different dance.

I almost feel a responsibility to my students to let them know that as soon as they complete the Bronze, we are going to be getting rid of almost every step they learned, and starting over with the real Foxtrot.

If your point of view is that the "real Foxtrot" is too difficult for beginners, then don't teach it initially, just like you don't teach Viennese Waltz, Bolero or Samba to beginners (as often).

I DO teach bronze foxtrot, but I am honest with my students, and I often show them some continuity steps sooner. I don't say, "You have to check off in Bronze before I'll show you the real dance".

Let's be honest about what it is...a different dance.

[Sagitta]

I guess I was fortunate to learn q,q,s from a beginners ballroom videotape, and also to learn both q,q,s and s,s,q,q right from in my first lesson with an instructor. :)

[dTas]

i know for a beginner, bronze foxtrot can be very boring. :?

i'm just saying that only after silver foxtrot does the importance of bronze foxtrot comes into play. you really don't appreciate the slow-slow until you have a bunch of quicks to contrast it with.

the contrast in speed between quicks and slows is one of the definining characteristics of foxtrot. but all to often people just run right over that slow so they can get to the quicks again.

take your time and feel every step. feel your balance travel over and through your foot and into the next step. too often people worry about the foot they are going to land on and don't pay enough attention to the foot they're standing on... that's the foot with all the control!!! that's the foot that makes you look good. :D

[D-spot]

Not too sure why people think IS Foxtrot can be difficult. Same as every otehr dance, ignore technique initially until they know a couple of steps. There can't be much that is easier than a simple feather/threestep combination tobegin with.
D-spot
(had his weekend fix)

[Sagitta]

D-spot
(had his weekend fix)

Glad to see that!! :D

More beginners foxtrot today...

[DancePoet]

Ok, my curiosity has increased.

Dance Mentor: What place do you feel American Bronze Foxtrot has?

[DanceMentor]

I feel that American Foxtrot is not Foxtrot at all. If anything, it is more like a Slow Quickstep. I like D-spot's comment about teaching the feather/3 step combination. It's pretty easy to get beginners to Walk.

I realize I may not be in the majority here, and I also realize that Bronze American Foxtrot will be around whether I like it or not. My point is simply that it is not True Foxtrot in my view.

[pygmalion]

Hmm. I wonder if I answered this before. But, alas, I'm too lazy to go back and read the whole thread to find out. :oops: :lol:

I think bronze foxtrot is one of those necessary evils. There's no way to get to silver and beyond without getting through bronze, as boring as it may be. :?

[Sagitta]

Instead of slow forward, slow forward, side quick, close quick do slow, slow, quick, quick all forward. Isn't that country?


Actually I've seen people who have done waltz better able to adapt to the slow, quick, quick of foxtrot. It also is a common theme...American rhumba, international rhumba, salsa.... If a person has done American tango (s,s,q,q,s basic) they can easily adapt to American foxtrot bronze basic of s,s,q,q and vice versa. That's been my personal experience. So teaching the bronze basic does have some usefulness, even if the step is not too useful when one progresses beyond bronze level. Building on the similarities of the various dances has been a indispensible tool for me.

[Throwaway Overshare]

Bronze American Foxtrot is simply a walking & connection exercise dressed up as a wedding dance.

[pygmalion]

Hi Throwaway Overshare. Welcome to the forums. 8) :D

[Genesius Redux]

Instead of slow forward, slow forward, side quick, close quick do slow, slow, quick, quick all forward. Isn't that country?

Yes, two-step basic is QQSS, all forward steps.

In some ways, the bronze foxtrot steps are all forward steps too, like the waltz--the side step eventually becomes a forward step as you bring CBM and shaping into it.

[Anonymous]

I used to be of the "bronze foxtrot isn't real foxtrot" school. Maybe I still am.

For competitive purposes, though, the MIT ballroom team has found that bronze foxtrot is an easily learned dance where you can work on some fundamentals early, like posture and basic timing. So I now think bronze foxtrot has its place for those purposes.

The MIT team tries to wean its rookies from bronze foxtrot to 'real' continuity foxtrot in the second semester. I think it would be difficult for most students to learn good continuity foxtrot much earlier, as it takes a while to build the necessary foot strength and balance, and continuity foxtrot timing is difficult for beginners. Similar reasoning might apply to social dancing.

On another issue, is there any way to change one's login name? I hadn't realized spaces were allowed, and now that I do, I'd like to use my full name....

Warren Dew

[pygmalion]

Hi wdew! Welcome. :D

Thanks for your comments on bronze foxtrot. I'm not supposed to be online now, so I'll log in and comment later, when I have more time. 8)

I'll send you a PM about the username.

Again, welcome. It's nice to have you with us. :D

Jenn

[Warren J. Dew]

Seems to have worked, thanks!

Looking forward to your comments.

[SDsalsaguy]

Welcome to the DF Warren! :D

[Sagitta]

I've already been taught some slow, quick, quick moves in beginners foxtrot by the ballroom club at cornell, such as the travelling twinkle or zig zag....where you have forward zig zags linked by a half basic, followed by backward zig zags for leader finishing with half a basic...then the twinkle to promenade...and I know a few good old standards such as the under arm turn...so they also have moved us along pretty fast I guess..

[DancePoet]

Found two reasons to teach bronze foxtrot yesterday.

I went to a ballroom dance fundraiser for charity. It was so crowded that when the band played foxtrot tunes it was very difficult to do much more then the basic bronze steps, particularly since almost everyone else seemed to be traveling at that speed.

Also, it was very easy to show a woman who had never danced before the basic foxtrot which enabled us to get around the floor. She was thrilled! Not sure it would have been as easy to show some of the more advanced steps and get her to dance as quickly. Now she wants to take lessons!

[KevinL]

Found two reasons to teach bronze foxtrot yesterday.

I went to a ballroom dance fundraiser for charity. It was so crowded that when the band played foxtrot tunes it was very difficult to do much more then the basic bronze steps, particularly since almost everyone else seemed to be traveling at that speed.

My dance teacher in California, Diane Jarmolow, told us about a gold level competitive couple who came to her with an interesting problem. They had gone to a wedding (or something) and hadn't been able to dance because they couldn't do anything small enough to avoid bumping into all the other people on the dance floor. After Diane (re-)taught them basic bronze social patterns they credited her with saving thier marriage.

Someone else mentioned that anyone doing bronze foxtrot would be lapped by people doing continuity foxtrot, and that may be true, but if everyone else is doing non-continuity, it is the continuity dancers who are the hazard.

Also, it was very easy to show a woman who had never danced before the basic foxtrot which enabled us to get around the floor. She was thrilled! Not sure it would have been as easy to show some of the more advanced steps and get her to dance as quickly. Now she wants to take lessons!

This is exactly why bronze foxtrot should be taught. It's easy! You can learn how to do _something_ without much effort, and it's a taste for what else you can do with dancing. If the goal is to train competition dancers than there might not be much point to bronze foxtrot, but most people are not competitive dancers, so just getting them moving is a very good thing.

Kevin

[pygmalion]

Good points, Kevin. I probably said this before in this thread (getting old and senile, so I don't remember LOL) But, even for aspiring competitive dancers, bronze foxtrot is a place to start.

Few people start reading books before they learn the alphabet, right? So why is dance (in this case, foxtrot) any different? You have to start somewhere. Gosh! I still remember my first dance lesson. Walking, just walking, which fifteeen minutes later had become a comfortable (still ugly, but comfortable) foxtrot basic. Bronze foxtrot is a place to start, whether your ultimate destination is social or competitive, I think. In bronze foxtrot, you get some basic building blocks which you can enhance later -- either by learning styling, different amalgamations, or by moving on to "higher level" foxtrot or other dances, depending on your goals.

[Porfirio Landeros]

I saw a dance couple, in open championship pro-am competition, begin their routine with the bronze basic figures. They did it as a "cute" intro, an homage if you will ;-)
I think it was Turtle and Ava...

Anyway, it worked, because it was kind of like, "See, you can do the bronze basics in competition [with a big grin on your face]!" After they did a couple of bronze figures, they flew away with the advanced choreography.

[SDsalsaguy]

[We now interupt your regularly scheduled topic for a special announcement...]

Love the new avatar shot porfirio!

[You are now being returned to your regularly scheduled topic...]

[DancePoet]

Hi Warren and welcome!

What is the story behind the picture you are using as an avatar?

[Warren J. Dew]

Thanks for the welcome, Poet!

The picture is the beginning of the exit from a left whisk. I figured that shrinking it to avatar size would hide my technical errors while still showing off the movement of my partner's beautiful dress.

[Kitty]

Thanks for the welcome, Poet!

The picture is the beginning of the exit from a left whisk. I figured that shrinking it to avatar size would hide my technical errors while still showing off the movement of my partner's beautiful dress.

NIce dress:-)
Always wanted to ask this question: what do teams do about competition costumes? There were a lot of people in bronze wearing costumes. Did they buy them themselves?

[Chris Stratton]

Always wanted to ask this question: what do teams do about competition costumes? There were a lot of people in bronze wearing costumes. Did they buy them themselves?

Most of the time when you see a gown on a bronze dancer at a collegiate comp, it is the property of her team, or on loan from a teammate, though as they advance many do buy a gown, perhaps a used one at first.

Many of the team gowns are actually donations, often from pro-am ladies in the community. Most are a few years out of current style, but still work as they were intended in their era. But there is some inequity between the teams here - not only in that the older and more established teams (MIT, Harvard, etc) have better collections, but also in that some teams have unique obstacles. For example, one school prohibits its student organizations from owning any property, so that team acutally had to turn down some offered donations.

Finally, there are gowns, and then there are gowns. Several people in the college team community have gotten into sewing things - while some of our efforts are amateurish, a few individuals have turned out near-professional creations.

[Kitty]

Most of the time when you see a gown on a bronze dancer at a collegiate comp, it is the property of her team, or on loan from a teammate, though as they advance many do buy a gown, perhaps a used one at first.

Many of the team gowns are actually donations, often from pro-am ladies in the community. Most are a few years out of current style, but still work as they were intended in their era. But there is some inequity between the teams here - not only in that the older and more established teams (MIT, Harvard, etc) have better collections, but also in that some teams have unique obstacles. For example, one school prohibits its student organizations from owning any property, so that team acutally had to turn down some offered donations.

We got one ballgown that was donated to our team. It doesn't fit anyone:-(.
So far our team has bought long skirts that are perfect for smooth and standard. The skirts look very good in newcomer and bronze, but not in silver. One of my teammates wore that skirt in silver at MIT - I couldn't find her on the floor!

[pygmalion]

What's your budget for the gowns? There are some very reasonably priced ready-to-wear gowns out there. Hmm. There are a few threads on that topic in DF, here and there. :wink:

[DancePoet]

Kitty:

You keep at it with the smooths! Tango, Foxtrot, Waltz and the rest, may not be glamorous to those other young ladies now, but someday they may wish there skill level was stronger with these. There is truelly a profound elegance to the smooth/standard forms appreciated by many, even though it isn't the in-thing with your peers. Maybe you could check out consignment and used clothing stores, and you might find what you are looking for even if it is only for yourself. The dance studio I take lessons from has been accumulating some "experienced" dresses for sale as well, which might be helpful. If interested, I'll pm you, but remember, I live in the New England area, and I don't know how practicle a trip to this studio would be for you.

[Kitty]

What's your budget for the gowns? There are some very reasonably priced ready-to-wear gowns out there. Hmm. There are a few threads on that topic in DF, here and there. :wink:

We can't buy a gown from just anywhere: if we want to use university money not all stores are approved. That limits our possibilities.

[pygmalion]

:shock: Huh? That makes absolutely no sense to me. Bu then, bureaucracies rarely do. :evil:

Have you considered having dresses made? A friend of mine gets all of her stuff made by a local seamstress. Or would University policy prohibit that, too?

[cl5814]

What about renting gowns ? There is a store in the Maryland area, called Dee's Creations, that rents and sells gowns. They ship and dryclean the dresses. The selection of dresses are available online. See the DCDancenet.com website for a link to their website.
PM me if you want more details or can't find the link.

[tasche]

Theres another linkt to a rental place in the ads and website section too. They have a pretty good selection. (will read this entire thread then post again later)

[pygmalion]

I'm going to copy these posts into the costumes for syllabus thread, so we can continue the low-cost costume talk over there. 8)

[pygmalion]

I used to be of the "bronze foxtrot isn't real foxtrot" school. Maybe I still am.

For competitive purposes, though, the MIT ballroom team has found that bronze foxtrot is an easily learned dance where you can work on some fundamentals early, like posture and basic timing. So I now think bronze foxtrot has its place for those purposes.

Hmm. Took me a while to get back to this thread. Sorry, Warren J. Dew. I completely agree with this. Bronze foxtrot definitely has its place.

The MIT team tries to wean its rookies from bronze foxtrot to 'real' continuity foxtrot in the second semester. I think it would be difficult for most students to learn good continuity foxtrot much earlier, as it takes a while to build the necessary foot strength and balance, and continuity foxtrot timing is difficult for beginners. Similar reasoning might apply to social dancing.



In social dancing, I've rarely met anyone who was up to continuity foxtrot (except the competitive dancers out for an evening's fun :lol: ) But yes, it's important to wean people at some point. I still remember (with horror) my bronze ISTD exam. I had been working on silver foxtrot for at least a year, and had to take the exam at bronze. :shock: Aargh. It's a miracle I passed. Probably because my teacher kept saying between his teeth," close your feet!" :shock: What a laugh! :lol: It's funny now that the teacher is long past and the exam is over, but it wasn't funny then.

[TheLetterJ]

I missed this original discussion, but was searching for it today when I was throwing ideas in my mind on how to get some non-dancing friends up to speed for a social dance. I was thinking of just teaching them the SQQ version of foxtrot, since it lends easier to waltz, and even rumba patterns. It's my idea of a crash course on social dancing :)

I'm probably a intmerdiate bronze dancer. But I prefer the SQQ foxtrot more, since it matches the phrasing of the music better, also since my foxtrot patterns are limited, I like to borrow patterns from waltz on the social floor.

[Chris Stratton]

The things is that the continuity and outside partner actions require a lot of foot strength and precision to do cleanly and on time - not to mention moderate flexibility. Yes, it can be learned without those skills, but that tends to create lasting bad habits.

There's no reason you can't do foot closure waltz to foxtrot music.

[robin]

It's a long time ago now, but something vaguely resembling american "bronze foxtrot" was one of the first dances i learnt in Germany. They called it "Foxtrot" distinct from "Slow Foxtrot", and in fact told people that it was a very basic form of the Quickstep.

I agree that there is a place for this dance, but I think it's very confusing to make it part of Foxtrot, as it is a completely different dance (as many people have pointed out). Its similarities with Quickstep are much greater, both in terms of the timing of the basic (SSQQ) as well as the pattern of movement and the action of closing the feet.

If I remember correctly what American Bronze Foxtrot looks like I would say that speeding the music up a little bit and telling the guys to step outside partner when going forward slow with their right leg would in fact turn it into Quickstep.

I guess the flaw in this is that there is no such thing as QS in Smooth, but that dance would be the logical progression, rather than international Foxtrot.

[Chris Stratton]

It's a long time ago now, but something vaguely resembling american "bronze foxtrot" was one of the first dances i learnt in Germany. They called it "Foxtrot" distinct from "Slow Foxtrot", and in fact told people that it was a very basic form of the Quickstep.

Yes, this is what English sources like Alex Moore and the ISTD call 'slow rhythm'. There is also a 'fast rhythm' which is a proto-quickstep.

The critical difference is not even so much the inside partner/outside partner, but the rise and fall. Slow rhythm (or Bronze American Foxtrot) lowers directly from the foot closure. Wheras quick rhythm, and quickstep, have a forward or backward step out of the closure before lowering. Slow rhythm also has two rising steps headed into the foot closure, where quick rhythm only has one (since the first step was a lowering one). And of course the footwork changes to match this - double heel leads going forward.

[etchuck]

As a complete aside: Hello J.

[robin]

Yes, this is what English sources like Alex Moore and the ISTD call 'slow rhythm'. There is also a 'fast rhythm' which is a proto-quickstep.

The critical difference is not even so much the inside partner/outside partner, but the rise and fall. Slow rhythm (or Bronze American Foxtrot) lowers directly from the foot closure. Wheras quick rhythm, and quickstep, have a forward or backward step out of the closure before lowering. Slow rhythm also has two rising steps headed into the foot closure, where quick rhythm only has one (since the first step was a lowering one). And of course the footwork changes to match this - double heel leads going forward.

Cheers, that makes perfect sense, I think what we did then was closer to "fast rhythm", though they never went into any technical detail as after about 8 weeks we did Quickstep instead (so the fast rhythm was mentioned in at most two lessons for 20 minutes or so..).

I think fast rhythm as proto-quickstep makes sense, i agree with some others though that slow rhythm has very little in common with foxtrot. The timing is different, the movement is different, the whole action is different, really the only thing that remains is the music...

Maybe it's good to have a very simple beginners dance, but I think between Waltz and Quickstep one can teach all the basic concepts without needing to introduce yet another dance...

[Chris Stratton]

i agree with some others though that slow rhythm has very little in common with foxtrot. The timing is different, the movement is different, the whole action is different, really the only thing that remains is the music...

The timing is and isn't different, depending on what particular challenge you are working on. The big thing that is similar is the need to take a flat walking action over a slow. The foot closure can seem like a bit of a red herring, it's the first walking step and the beginning of the second that are the important technique drill in preparation for the more difficult varients of foxtrot. But the foot closure, particularly the lowering action before steppping out of it backwards, is a good drill for waltz, without the stress of trying to complete a large amount of turn before it.


Maybe it's good to have a very simple beginners dance, but I think between Waltz and Quickstep one can teach all the basic concepts without needing to introduce yet another dance...

The thing about this foxtrot is that you can dance around the floor knowing only one or two steps, and in the process practice technique that will be important for the rest of your dancing life. Waltz is far, far more complicated. Quickstep (simple patterns) is a good introductory dance, though it's fast enough that it's hard to think on your feet.

[TheLetterJ]

The thing about this foxtrot is that you can dance around the floor knowing only one or two steps, and in the process practice technique that will be important for the rest of your dancing life.


While true, I don't think most beginning students think like this. I remember when I started learning ballroom dancing, I thought foxtrot was boring, and I wanted to learn cool patterns. The beginners' eye does not notice good technique, it only notices fancy patterns. So in order to keep dancing interesting and give a sense of accomplishment to the beginning student, more patterns are the answer. For me, knowing patterns kept me from getting bored, and now that I can dance comfortably on the social floor with enough patterns, I'm going back to work on better technique.

Different teaching philosophies I guess. I always like to develop my own interest in something, then my learning really takes off rather than being told from the beginning what's good for me even though I don't understand it. This applies to my college days too. Developing the basics to anything is always important, but so boring when I don't get the whole picture, or know why it's important. Only after seeing how the basics is applied in more advanced lessons do I appreciate it.

[Chris Stratton]

I was late to realize the virtues of the bronze/rhythm foxtrot too, but then I joined my team a semester into its introductory program, and missed the early demonstrations and explanations. I didn't really understand the dance myself until I tried to explain it to others.

Today, I think the reason why this dance is so undervalued outside of a few competition settings is that you almost never see anyone demonstrate it correctly. If you don't see it done with it's key components, how could you possibly develop an appreciation of them? And devoid of those components, yes, the dance is worthless except as a survival tool for the very new beginner.

But beginners who are shown and taught how to do it properly do seem to understand its virtues - and end up with a real head start on the continuity foxtrots.

[mamboqueen]

I'm too lazy to find the appropriate thread for this....

I inadvertantly was sent the wrong DVD and find myself with a Toni Redpath/Michael Mead BASIC smooth DVD. They offered me a discount to keep it, but it's really more helpful to either a smooth beginner or someone to use as a teaching tool. It's technique, not patterns. It's called Elements of American Smooth. It goes over hold and basic positions for each dance. If anyone would like it, $30 shipped, PM me asap. (I have viewed it once)

[Doug]

I didn't read the whole thread and this may have been touched on.

Bronze level foxtrot is THE primary reason that I quit taking ballroom lessons and in fact thought that ballroom dancers didn't even bother to listen to the music!!!

We were learning 6 count patterns to what was manifestly 8-count music! So, not even realizing until this thread that most foxtrot is 4 or 8 count (SQQ instead of SSQQ) I just blew off foxtrot. My loss. But WHY would anyone introduce a dance with a family of steps that do not generally fit with the music??? I think that teaching bronze foxtrot to beginners does a huge disservice to both students and the dance.

The same is true for ECS which was another part of the ballroom syllabus that persuaded me to just walk out. Again I ask - why would one want to introduce a dance with steps and patterns that don't even fit the music to which they are danced?? This is a big piece of why I am now a Lindy/Balboa dancer. Starting on day one you listen to and dance to the music. I found this much easier as a beginner.

Now if you want to know what I really think, just ask! :P

[Chris Stratton]

East Coast swing has the same "problem"

Acutally, foxtrot works out better, because a complete repeating set (both forward and back halves) does at least come out on a bar-line.

The goal in that form of the dance is to practice how to take individual steps relative to the 2-beat structure of the music.

In SQQ foxtrot, you learn how to phrase figures to measure(s) of music, in which case it's quite likely that few of the steps will fall on beats (the 1st quick might align with the 3rd beat of music, but the others are all off since it's body timing rather than foot timing that matters).

And at some point, you theoretically learn how to fit whole phrases of figures to phrases of music, though few seem to get there.

[jon]

The same is true for ECS which was another part of the ballroom syllabus that persuaded me to just walk out. Again I ask - why would one want to introduce a dance with steps and patterns that don't even fit the music to which they are danced??

At least in part because few beginning dancers know anything about music structurally. Getting them to step on the beat is challenge enough for the first couple of months.

[Doug]

I had been a musician for over 30 years when my girl friend (now my wife but that is a different story) got me out on the floor. So it was apparent immediately! Actually, I see no penalty in teaching steps/patterns right off the bat that fit the phrasing. That's what waltz does and it always made sense to me. I was just too graceless to feel good about waltz!

Working patterns into the dance that are not 4 or 8 count while still maintaining musicality is, to me, an advanced activity and best left to the higher levels.

[Chris Stratton]

Actually, I see no penalty in teaching steps/patterns right off the bat that fit the phrasing. That's what waltz does and it always made sense to me. I was just too graceless to feel good about waltz!

Ah, but waltz motions are quite a bit harder technically (and more complicated to fit together into progressive patterns).

With foxtrot you trade simple-to-master actions for a slightly more complicated relationship to the music.

It's not as if half half quarter quarter half half quarter quarter is a very complex musical pattern...

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I've been doing it "wrong" all this time! I'm working on preliminary bronze (just SSQQ figures) american foxtrot for a DVIDA medal exam. It occurred to me to refer to the DVIDA manual to see if I'd missed any finer points. Well, according to the manual, the QQ (side-together) portion of these figures is danced Toe-Heel Toe-Heel. Whereas I've been dancing Toe Toe-Heel for months. Which is fine outside the exam room. But inside, it goes by the book. :mad:

[tangotime]

To whomever stated that f/t is always sqq-- not so by a long chalk !.

Foxtrot ,has more subtleties in its interpretation ( higher levels ) than can be put into words . It has always been considered the most difficult to master , by pro,s .
As for the bronze ( and intern. ) social---- a valuable tool for several reasons, which have already been stated .If it had not been in place on the Amer syl., I doubt if all would have mastered the flowing patterns of the more advanced levels (not to mention heel turns , and all that . ) One needs to consider the era it was catering to .

I always find it interesting, that some jump on the " off time " of the basic, thinking in the much smaller picture of the application.Not all things in dance , fit into a tidy little box ( no pun intended ) .

[pruthe]

I've been doing it "wrong" all this time! I'm working on preliminary bronze (just SSQQ figures) american foxtrot for a DVIDA medal exam. It occurred to me to refer to the DVIDA manual to see if I'd missed any finer points. Well, according to the manual, the QQ (side-together) portion of these figures is danced Toe-Heel Toe-Heel. Whereas I've been dancing Toe Toe-Heel for months. Which is fine outside the exam room. But inside, it goes by the book. :mad:

I agree that value of the American bronze foxtrot has been under-rated as a part of the ballroom experience. I've also tried my hand at executing various steps as listed in DVIDA bronze syllabus manual and its no cake walk (pardon pun). Toe-Heel Toe-Heel of basic side together is a particular challenge. Mastery of bronze foxtrot is a great preparation for higher levels in my opinion.

[DanceMentor]

I wanted to note that since I started this thread I have changed my mind about American Bronze Foxtrot, and now feel that you can do quite a lot with it to get your students prepared for the next level.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I don't really see the purpose of the Toe-Heel Toe-Heel, no sway for the side-together, which seems to indicate a stiff, upright side-step. How is forcing people to dance it without swing supposed to prepare them for higher levels? Besides, I think that footwork makes it easier for beginners to start the pattern over again with weight on the wrong foot.

[DanceMentor]

I teach the zig zag (aka junior walks) quite a bit and use swing into the side step as well as cbm preceding the swing. For some students who aren't sure if they want to compete yet, it helps to build confidence and technique without overloading them.

[wooh]

My husband hates bronze foxtrot. He finds it so much harder to navigate a busy floor with it than with right and left turns (whether closed or continuity). He just feels like he's always in the way moving so slow and small, and feels like he has so few options to get around people. Of course, he also sometimes likes to see the dance floor as a NASCAR track, and get around as fast as possible, being quite fond of his double-time/no-slows foxtrot, which moves faster than any QS or VW I've done. So a slow and easy bronze foxtrot just goes very against the grain of what he likes to do dancing.
As for me, it took such a massive amount of brain power to figure out how you could fit 6 beats to 4/4 music, then when you add in the 4 beat stuff, how is that supposed to work with the 6 beat. I swear, knowing something about music just made dancing harder!

[pruthe]

I don't really see the purpose of the Toe-Heel Toe-Heel, no sway for the side-together, which seems to indicate a stiff, upright side-step. How is forcing people to dance it without swing supposed to prepare them for higher levels? Besides, I think that footwork makes it easier for beginners to start the pattern over again with weight on the wrong foot.

I'm looking at the DVIDA manual for man's basic in Foxtrot. On step 3 (LF to side), there is a rise at start of 3 and a fall at end of 3. There is a sway to R for both steps 3 and 4. These are subtle actions in the foxtrot. There are other similar subtle actions in foxtrot. If you have questions on any of this you should ask your instructor. Its sometimes hard to complete these type of actions, which I think is a good experience for higher level dance. Just keep practicing and it will pay off later.

Good Luck. :)

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I'm looking at the DVIDA manual for man's basic in Foxtrot. On step 3 (LF to side), there is a rise at start of 3 and a fall at end of 3. There is a sway to R for both steps 3 and 4. These are subtle actions in the foxtrot. There are other similar subtle actions in foxtrot. If you have questions on any of this you should ask your instructor. Its sometimes hard to complete these type of actions, which I think is a good experience for higher level dance. Just keep practicing and it will pay off later.

Good Luck. :)
Uh oh! :shock: I think I may be looking at an outdated version (2001?). I borrowed it from someone else. I don't have it on hand right now, but I'm pretty sure it was described as Footwork: H HT TH TH, Rise: as you described, Sway: None. I really need to go out and buy my own - it's just that I can't decide what music CDs to include in my order. :( Thanks for quoting from your manual.

[PureAbsurd]

Ah! So the ssqq basic actually is in bronze American foxtrot!..
I had to start learning Smooth not so long ago, and the first thing about foxtrot was the sqq-sqq box. When I asked about that ssqq basic which has been introduced to me two or three years ago, I got an answer that this basic was for a "social" version of foxtrot... So, does American Bronze Foxtrot include both ssqq and sqq timings?

Also I got an impression that American Foxtrot is mostly American Waltz (which I like more so far) done in sqq and different rise and fall character. A teacher actually did it an a "Waltz and Foxtrot" class: teaching waltz figures first, and then saying "now let's do them with foxtrot music in sqq". I can remember only one figure, namely grapevine, with non-sqq timing. Are there any analogues of Int. style weaves in American Foxtrot?

[tanya_the_dancer]

My husband hates bronze foxtrot. He finds it so much harder to navigate a busy floor with it than with right and left turns (whether closed or continuity). He just feels like he's always in the way moving so slow and small, and feels like he has so few options to get around people. Of course, he also sometimes likes to see the dance floor as a NASCAR track, and get around as fast as possible, being quite fond of his double-time/no-slows foxtrot, which moves faster than any QS or VW I've done. So a slow and easy bronze foxtrot just goes very against the grain of what he likes to do dancing.
As for me, it took such a massive amount of brain power to figure out how you could fit 6 beats to 4/4 music, then when you add in the 4 beat stuff, how is that supposed to work with the 6 beat. I swear, knowing something about music just made dancing harder!

My husband does not like foxtrot or slow waltz. I am not fond of American bronze foxtrot either (maybe because I find it boring to do fwd-fwd-side-together all around the floor), but I like international foxtrot and silver american foxtrot.

[Josh]

I'm looking at the DVIDA manual for man's basic in Foxtrot. On step 3 (LF to side), there is a rise at start of 3 and a fall at end of 3. There is a sway to R for both steps 3 and 4. These are subtle actions in the foxtrot. There are other similar subtle actions in foxtrot. If you have questions on any of this you should ask your instructor. Its sometimes hard to complete these type of actions, which I think is a good experience for higher level dance. Just keep practicing and it will pay off later.

Good Luck. :)

Uh oh! :shock: I think I may be looking at an outdated version (2001?). I borrowed it from someone else. I don't have it on hand right now, but I'm pretty sure it was described as Footwork: H HT TH TH, Rise: as you described, Sway: None. I really need to go out and buy my own - it's just that I can't decide what music CDs to include in my order. :( Thanks for quoting from your manual.

In the newest DVIDA manual (dated Aug 1, 2006), there is no sway for basic, H, HT, TH, TH footwork, and rise e/o 2, up on 3, lower e/o 3.

Can anyone think of why there's no sway indicated?

[Chris Stratton]

Can anyone think of why there's no sway indicated?

Because there is limited role for movement-coupled swing or sway. The little bit which might be useful there is too subtle for students who are just figuring out these concepts in their more obvious applications to waltz-like movement.

Generally if you see sway being used in Bronze type foxtrot it is not movement-coupled but instead something that's just been added to dress things up - and on most people, will be way out of proportion. Somewhere I have a video of doing this dance at time when I thought it was beneath me and tried to show it, which has this really outrageous drunken shoulder roll added to every step.

The first key to understanding it it to cut out the extraneous distraction, both the large amount which simply doesn't belong, and the small amount which could eventually be used with care, and concentrate on the core movements and partnering. At the scale they will usually be performed, these don't involve much sway.

Incidentally, the lower e/o 3 version is by no means universal. Many people learn to lower at the end of step four instead.

[atk]

So, does American Bronze Foxtrot include both ssqq and sqq timings?

Yes. Associate bronze is SSQQ. Full bronze is SQQ.


Also I got an impression that American Foxtrot is mostly American Waltz (which I like more so far) done in sqq and different rise and fall character.


Many dances use the same patterns, with different technique. For example, a box can be done in in waltz, rumba, fox trot, samba, tango, and more.

The reason that waltz and fox trot can so easily use almost all the same patterns is that they both have the same number of steps, and the technique is slightly similar. Of course, there are differences (like American waltz should close the feet, while American fox trot should use as much continuity as possible), but it seems to be mostly different in technique.


Are there any analogues of Int. style weaves in American Foxtrot?
Maybe someone else can answer that - or maybe describe what a weave is - I don't know that pattern by that name (and may not know that pattern :) ).

[PureAbsurd]

The reason that waltz and fox trot can so easily use almost all the same patterns is that they both have the same number of steps, and the technique is slightly similar. Of course, there are differences (like American waltz should close the feet, while American fox trot should use as much continuity as possible), but it seems to be mostly different in technique.

So now I'm assured that my teacher's quirk to teach beginner and intermediate waltz and foxtrot simultaneously is actually a good practice ;)

Maybe someone else can answer that - or maybe describe what a weave is - I don't know that pattern by that name (and may not know that pattern :) ).
Sorry for confusion. What I actually intended to ask is if there are any significantly non-sqq timing figures except grapewine in syllabus level American fox? I used weave just as an example of sqqqqqq timing figure.

[Chris Stratton]

Sorry for confusion. What I actually intended to ask is if there are any significantly non-sqq timing figures except grapewine in syllabus level American fox? I used weave just as an example of sqqqqqq timing figure.

Yes... there are all the SSQQ ones.

I believe there are also various hesitations with multiple slows. And of course ways to get to shadow position which would involve the two partner's dancing different timings in their feet.

Finally don't forget that in most contexts, gold syllabus american style is defined more by character than by a specific list of figures.

[Genesius Redux]

I wanted to note that since I started this thread I have changed my mind about American Bronze Foxtrot, and now feel that you can do quite a lot with it to get your students prepared for the next level.

Funny you should mention that, DM. Looking over the earlier part of the thread, I was more broad-minded about it when you first posted--now I've come round to your opinion. I absolutely detest Bronze Foxtrot (though you can still build off it, I suppose).

[Genesius Redux]

Generally if you see sway being used in Bronze type foxtrot it is not movement-coupled but instead something that's just been added to dress things up - and on most people, will be way out of proportion. Somewhere I have a video of doing this dance at time when I thought it was beneath me and tried to show it, which has this really outrageous drunken shoulder roll added to every step.

The first key to understanding it it to cut out the extraneous distraction, both the large amount which simply doesn't belong, and the small amount which could eventually be used with care, and concentrate on the core movements and partnering. At the scale they will usually be performed, these don't involve much sway.

LOL. I wish I'd had this post when I choreographed the foxtrot segment for the dancing section of Much Ado. I put in a sway at the very beginning of "Little Brown Jug," and I totally got everything you just described!

But the audience seemed to like so, well, whatever....

[DennisBeach]

Funny you should mention that, DM. Looking over the earlier part of the thread, I was more broad-minded about it when you first posted--now I've come round to your opinion. I absolutely detest Bronze Foxtrot (though you can still build off it, I suppose).

We also disliked bronze Foxtrot. Studio manager evidently figured that out and had us do silver Foxtrot. We passed all our bronze levels doing silver Foxtrot, which seemed kind off weird to me. Studio was really good at giving us stuff that would interest and challenge us, pretty much ignoring what level we were officially at.

[SmoothGuy]

So far all I know is the "bronze foxtrot". I learned it as part of our studio's Associate Bronze syllabus. I've just started moving into the silver/standard timing of doing the foxtrot (box time?), and having the feet pass each other instead of closing each time (continuity?) and I find it a bit of an adjustment. Maybe I am better prepared for it now because of the extra time spent working on my balance and footwork. It's hard for me to say for sure since in the scheme of things I'm such a newbie. I do remember thinking to myself... "damn, why do they have to go and change everything on me!". It does seem to me like the bronze foxtrot is a totally different dance from silver foxtrot but danceable to the same music.

[latingal]

Welcome to DF SmoothGuy!

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Of course, he also sometimes likes to see the dance floor as a NASCAR track, and get around as fast as possible, being quite fond of his double-time/no-slows foxtrot, which moves faster than any QS or VW I've done.
:shock: :lol: What figures does he use for his double-time foxtrot (or should we call it Quickfox?)?

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Also I got an impression that American Foxtrot is mostly American Waltz (which I like more so far) done in sqq and different rise and fall character. A teacher actually did it an a "Waltz and Foxtrot" class: teaching waltz figures first, and then saying "now let's do them with foxtrot music in sqq". I can remember only one figure, namely grapevine, with non-sqq timing. Are there any analogues of Int. style weaves in American Foxtrot?
:D I remember one class where we Foxtrot-ized a Waltz routine. The timing for the Promenade chasse (SQQS) kept throwing me off.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I am not fond of American bronze foxtrot either (maybe because I find it boring to do fwd-fwd-side-together all around the floor), but I like international foxtrot and silver american foxtrot.
Would it be more interesting if you tried the follower's part instead? ;)

[Terpsichorean Clod]

In the newest DVIDA manual (dated Aug 1, 2006), there is no sway for basic, H, HT, TH, TH footwork, and rise e/o 2, up on 3, lower e/o 3.

Can anyone think of why there's no sway indicated?
Thanks for the clarification, Josh! I guess I can put off ordering my manual for a little longer. :cool:

[Terpsichorean Clod]

We also disliked bronze Foxtrot. Studio manager evidently figured that out and had us do silver Foxtrot. We passed all our bronze levels doing silver Foxtrot, which seemed kind off weird to me. Studio was really good at giving us stuff that would interest and challenge us, pretty much ignoring what level we were officially at.
Sounds like a fantastic studio! I used to think of syllabus levels as more like laws. But now, I'm starting to think of them as just learning aids that should be tweaked to meet the needs of individual students.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Welcome to Dance Forums, SmoothGuy! :D

[Terpsichorean Clod]

According to the USISTD site, American Foxtrot is slightly faster than International. Does this include both American Bronze and continuity styles? I would've thought any division would be between Bronze American foxtrot and everything else. American continuity foxtrot seems much, much more related to International than it is to Bronze.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Because there is limited role for movement-coupled swing or sway. The little bit which might be useful there is too subtle for students who are just figuring out these concepts in their more obvious applications to waltz-like movement.

Generally if you see sway being used in Bronze type foxtrot it is not movement-coupled but instead something that's just been added to dress things up - and on most people, will be way out of proportion. Somewhere I have a video of doing this dance at time when I thought it was beneath me and tried to show it, which has this really outrageous drunken shoulder roll added to every step.

The first key to understanding it it to cut out the extraneous distraction, both the large amount which simply doesn't belong, and the small amount which could eventually be used with care, and concentrate on the core movements and partnering. At the scale they will usually be performed, these don't involve much sway.

Incidentally, the lower e/o 3 version is by no means universal. Many people learn to lower at the end of step four instead.
A lot of bronze beginners dance waltz without sway. Sway is still written into figures in the manual. I don't see why bronze foxtrot couldn't be handled the same way - giving newbies something to aspire to, rather than writing it off and forcing everyone to dance the stiff, clunky version.

[waltzguy]

I do agree with some posts that say it has to do with a beginner's ability to dance a foxtrot relatively quickly in a social setting, where technique or traveling are not the primary concerns.

Swing and sway usually are not taught at beginner levels (varies from studio to studio). Probably has similar reasons to the above sentence.

[DennisBeach]

Sounds like a fantastic studio! I used to think of syllabus levels as more like laws. But now, I'm starting to think of them as just learning aids that should be tweaked to meet the needs of individual students.


Franchises tend to get a lot of negative comments, but this one was really excellent. They would ask us each lesson what dance we wanted to work on and when they showed us new things. They would ask us, if we thought we would like it, since they had a good feel for what we liked, we always said yes. But it was nice they gave us the option. If we asked them to show us something we had seen, they would always try to accomodate us. There were always praising us for practicing and making good progress.

[SmoothGuy]

I consider myself extremely lucky. I go an independent studio that used to be an Arthur Murray... so a lot of things are structured the Arthur Murray way. I was enrolled in an Associate Bronze program, which would be the first two of four levels in bronze. My teacher is so great. She's never tried to hold me back in my learning, and she's been teaching me as fast as I can go. She hasn't confined my learning to just what I paid for. She'll throw in more advanced steps and technique wherever she thinks I'm ready for it.

[Chris Stratton]

A lot of bronze beginners dance waltz without sway. Sway is still written into figures in the manual. I don't see why bronze foxtrot couldn't be handled the same way - giving newbies something to aspire to, rather than writing it off and forcing everyone to dance the stiff, clunky version.

Because the conceptually simple movement-coupled pendulum sway used in waltz doesn't really have much place in many of the foxtrot figures. The more subtle sway that might have a place there is too complicated to teach at first.
Even the role of sway in international or continuity foxtrot is easier to get right than that, because again it has more of a functional role.

Obviously a figure that is common to waltz and bronze foxtrot would be a different story. It might not want as much sway as in waltz, but it needn't be clunky.

[pruthe]

I do agree with some posts that say it has to do with a beginner's ability to dance a foxtrot relatively quickly in a social setting, where technique or traveling are not the primary concerns.

Swing and sway usually are not taught at beginner levels (varies from studio to studio). Probably has similar reasons to the above sentence.

There's been a lot of opinions expressed in this thread about bronze American foxtrot. I found this earlier thread (using similar thread links below) also discussing this topic.

www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=1501 (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=1501)

I especially enjoyed and agree with comments of pygmalion in this earlier thread.

[pruthe]

In the newest DVIDA manual (dated Aug 1, 2006), there is no sway for basic, H, HT, TH, TH footwork, and rise e/o 2, up on 3, lower e/o 3.

Can anyone think of why there's no sway indicated?

Could you please verify that there's not a problem with columns lining up. It should show sway as either S-straight, L-left, or R-right. I noticed on Dance Vision website that sample Foxtrot manual page has one case where columns do not line up. Look like no sway in that one case looking at wrong column info.

Thanks for identifying new bronze smooth manual exists. Will have to get that one.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Somewhere I have a video of doing this dance at time when I thought it was beneath me and tried to show it, which has this really outrageous drunken shoulder roll added to every step.

Speaking of trying too hard... somewhere I have a video of someone who shall remain nameless doing bronze foxtrot with drunken sailor sway...
Nameless no more. Do you still have the video? :D

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Because the conceptually simple movement-coupled pendulum sway used in waltz doesn't really have much place in many of the foxtrot figures. The more subtle sway that might have a place there is too complicated to teach at first.
Even the role of sway in international or continuity foxtrot is easier to get right than that, because again it has more of a functional role.

Obviously a figure that is common to waltz and bronze foxtrot would be a different story. It might not want as much sway as in waltz, but it needn't be clunky.
Are you referring to how the progressive basic is generally danced with a strict sidestep, putting a sharp 90 degree angle in the pattern? I don't think I'm getting much sway, if any, in this pattern. It's in the promenade basic and left/right rock turns where I don't like the manual prescribing no sway.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Eek! I just looked at my new manual (finally ordered the latest edition). It describes the "characteristic 'bounce action'" as well as how to produce it. I could accept non-sway in my figures. But I refuse to :bouncy: for my medal exam. :cry: :cry: :cry: