Women asking men to dance. [Archive]

will35

10-25-2003, 02:18 PM

I don't want anybody to ask me. They always ask me when there is some music I just hate or when I am talking with some friends. Then, they think I am an ass when I say, "No." Women just can't take rejection well enough to be going around asking. Maybe someday, but not yet. It is also my responsibility to know when the woman wants to dance before asking. At one milonga, there is a DJ who always begins a little DiSarli tanda with Bahia Blanca. When I hear it, I look around for a particular partner. I know she loves that music, and she likes to dance it with me. It's easy for men to know when a woman wants to dance, women just can't tell when a man does not want to dance. They ask and get their feelings hurt. And it always seems to be the newer women dancers who get the hurt feelings and who are most sensitive. I am sorry that there are too many women at all the dances in the U.S. I cannot help it. When I go to dance, I do it to get away from all the social pressure from work. If I have to dance with every woman who asks me, it starts to seem like work. Then, I go home, and there are even fewer men dancers.

Swing Kitten

10-25-2003, 07:55 PM

I stand corrected... not everyone likes to be asked.

I feel I'm pretty good at decerning whether or not a guy is looking to dance... I don't get turned down very often because of this. I don't interrupt the conversations of strangers or if he has somehow separated himself from the dance floor. I don't feel offended or personally rejected when a guy says no... I know perfectly well that he is under no obligation... I wouldn't want him to dance with me because he somehow felt that he had to. I chalk it up to timing no longer think about it.

I don't think I agree that men are better at knowing when a potential dance partner wants to dance. The VAST majority of men don't strike me as the observant half of the species... especially when it comes to women!! IMO

will35

10-25-2003, 08:39 PM

Yeah, maybe you're right. This is not a question I come across very often, because I only go to dances where I know everybody in the States. The women who ask me normally do know when I want to dance. When the Bahia Blanca comes on, normally I am looking at that particular dance partner looking back at me. Men may not be very observant, but the point is that it is their job to be observant in the milonga. They watch who dances well, and they do their best to dance with those. I don't necessarily use that criterion, but I am always watching. One might say that the male of the species is not necessarily the more observant or the best at dancing. In that case, the man has no business at the dances at all. There are traditions that go along with every dance. I really didn't consider where I was before I answered this post the first time. My body may be here, but my head is almost always somewhere else. I have to wake up before I write any more.
So, here is a better answer. Some women are good at being rejected, some are not. Some men are observant, some are not. Some women can tell when I want to dance, some cannot. There are just some things that are different with different dances, different groups of people. Women have even asked me to dance when I had a plate full of food. The tradition where I am from and everywhere else I have ever been is that a gentleman simply does not turn down a lady at any time, except in the milonga. And that is not quite true because the lady does not ask in the milonga. The man asks. On the other hand, things change, even in the milongas in Buenos Aires. At certain milongas, ladies sometimes ask the men. They are mostly young people. Then again, this only applies to women who are strangers to me. I am always glad to accept an invitation to dance from the right partner. But the original question posted did not make any accomodation for that. Still, if I had to choose between women asking and men asking, I prefer to ask, not to be asked. There is no easy answer to this question, but I still prefer to ask. I also like to go with friends who have partners. I can dance with their partners, and they can dance with mine.
Who knows, SK, maybe we shall meet on some dance floor someday, and you can ask me to dance and I can ask you to dance, and we'll both be happy.

Swing Kitten

10-25-2003, 11:05 PM

:D I don't perfer to ask. I would much rather be asked. Except that is not much of a choice. If I didn't ask leads to dance then I simply wouldn't dance. So if it is left to preferences I would not have to ask for my dances but as a matter of survival as it were, I do ask... I've gotten used to that. :shrug:

So may be you can just ask me... it seems that would make us both happy!

Danish Guy

10-26-2003, 04:02 AM

So far my answer, have always has been “Of course”.

Later I try to return the favour.

(Sometimes when I have gone cold, a lady asking me has been the kickstart I needed).

Swing Kitten

10-28-2003, 07:47 AM

I think when it's a question it's best to err on the side of positive friendliness.

Phil Owl

10-28-2003, 09:07 AM

I have no objections to being asked by a lady at all. I take it as a great compliment!

Not to boast, but I have hada couple of women say to me that I was their favorite person to dance with. :D

Spitfire

10-28-2003, 09:50 AM

I also think it's great to be asked by a lady. And I never turn any request down unless it's something that I don't know like a Vienesse Waltz.

brujo

10-28-2003, 10:14 AM

I don't want anybody to ask me.

Dude, just act like you had a few beers... that usually keeps them away in droves.

Swing Kitten

10-28-2003, 10:39 AM

I don't want anybody to ask me.

Dude, just act like you had a few beers... that usually keeps them away in droves.

yup.... that would keep me away!

Vince A

10-28-2003, 11:14 AM

I agree with Phil Owl . . . I think it's a great compliment if a Lady asks me to dance, especially if she is a repeat requester . . . and has a nice big smile on her face.

I never, ever refuse a dance!

Pacion

07-17-2004, 07:30 PM

:banana: Ohhhh! I ask! :lol: I think the catalyst for me happened a couple of years just after I started salsa.

I went to a city where I knew no one and was as desperate as desperation could be, for a dance :( so I looked around, got a feel for who was with who/or not as the case maybe, grabbed my courage with all 10 hands :lol: and asked a guy to dance. He looked at me as if he was trying to make up his mind whether I could dance or not :roll: (new face in town etc) :oops: turned out I had asked a cuban guy and I hadn't danced cuban for a couple of years or so. :shock:

Yes I missed quite a few of his leads but, it could not have been all that bad because either he asked me to dance later that night or I asked him again and he said yes, determined this time to get his leads :lol: Either way, we became salsa pals and my experiences of asking certainly outweigh the bad. :banana:

I used to ask guys I knew throught the classes but a total stranger :shock: Now, I will ask any and everyone :lol: :banana:

etchuck

07-18-2004, 12:45 AM

Good for you.

So I'm attending the Carolina Salsa Congress, and I'm pretty sure no one who is part of the salsa community here reads this board...

At any rate, I plain don't know anyone save a couple of people. So I'm very tentative to ask anyone to dance with me because simply put my salsa is not as cool as everyone else's. So I just sit and just not dance. Now, one person who is not from the area asks me why I'm just sitting there, and I pretty much say, "Because no one has asked me."

I admit I do take notes on how friendly some of the members of the dancing community are. And the local salsa community is not very high on my list.

Sagitta

07-18-2004, 03:58 AM

Sabor

07-18-2004, 04:23 AM

yes, women should ask men to dance at all times... its the new age after all.. research have proved that women are mentally tougher, so they can take rejection much better.. there u go :tongue:

MacMoto

07-18-2004, 06:27 AM

I ask a LOT, and I ask new faces to dance as well as regulars and favourite leads. It's not unusual for me to end up doing a lot more asking than being asked. In fact when I get lots of dances without asking, I go :shock:. I get an impression that men say "no" much less than women, and when they do say no they are more likely to seek you out later to ask, so women asking men to dance face a lot less rejections (ladies, take note!). I suppose men get asked a lot less than women and feel it's flattering to be asked. I also think (I could be wrong of course) men don't usually have to worry whether the asker genuinely wants to dance or is just looking for an opportunity to grope you :evil:.

Tasek

07-18-2004, 06:58 AM

I also think (I could be wrong of course) men don't usually have to worry whether the asker genuinely wants to dance or is just looking for an opportunity to grope you :evil:.

I don't know how it compares to how often women have to endure this, but it definately does happen, women doing inappropiate things.

Sagitta

07-18-2004, 01:28 PM

Hank

07-18-2004, 02:06 PM

I have been groped many times by women, almost all of them age 50-80. But, it does not bother me enough to do anything about it.

Sakura

07-18-2004, 02:40 PM

I ask men to dance. Although, the only opportunity to really ask is at the WCS group lessons+party I go to. Everybody there is really nice, and all much older than I am, so sometimes I wonder if the acceptances I get to dances come from the fact that I'm a new face, which is always good, or if I'm okay enough to dance with, and if not, it's for encouragement's sake!! =O_o= I've gotten some real compliments from some of them though, so that was a good sign all around!

However, I agree with Swing Kitten that it's always great to be asked by a guy! Maybe it helps get rid of that, "Always picked last for teams," feeling a geek like me carries around! :lol: :roll: :lol: *nods* Yeah; definitely something there about someone seeking you out for a dance to make one feel very nice. =^__^=

SK :kitty:

MapleLeaf Salsero

07-19-2004, 02:39 PM

It always great to be asked for a dance, however some ladies exagerate... 5 times on the same night is too much...

etchuck

07-19-2004, 02:54 PM

I admit I do take notes on how friendly some of the members of the dancing community are. And the local salsa community is not very high on my list.

That's so sad. I was talking with some people about introducing new people to the salsa scene and all that we do to encourage them and get them dancing. Tonight there were these two girls dancing merengue, or trying to, at a party, and I wanted to dance. So a friend and I made our move and split them up. Actually I made my move and told the other girl that my friend was behind her, and he moved up to take his place! :wink: :) Now if we were talking about the lindy scence I would agree...

Maybe it's just the ballroomer in me, but I would do that a lot when it came to salsa dances I organize(d). During a merengue lesson before a dance, there were two girls that were without a partner, so I swooped in and had them practice their turns with me. Certainly I'd notice that in other dances where I attended or organized that I'd notice people on the side who were just watching and very afraid to try it.

As for the lindy scene here, my colleague Setsuna would have a different impression that I would. Perhaps part of it is because she's a girl and I'm not; certainly she takes more lessons in lindy than I do. In general I think they're a bit friendlier, provided they at least realize you're not a creep and you have some level of competence (the on1 vs. on2 thing being an additional complicating factor). Then again, I think that's the case in all dance communities except contra.

But I probably will take some salsa lessons to connect to the community at some point. At least after I feel competent in ArT.

DanceAm

07-19-2004, 03:46 PM

I only decline to dance, and as politely as I can, when a woman asks me to dance in three instances.

1. I don't really do or like a particular dance. For me, I don't really enjoy doing a Quickstep or a West Coast Swing, nothing against the dances, I just don't feel motivated to really want to do them. But I enjoy watching a couple who can do those really well.

2. I am really in need of a break. Usually the women outnumber the men and everyone knows what that is like.

3. The woman has asked too many times that night. And this has only happened once.

setsuna713

07-19-2004, 04:16 PM

As for the lindy scene here, my colleague Setsuna would have a different impression that I would. Perhaps part of it is because she's a girl and I'm not; certainly she takes more lessons in lindy than I do. In general I think they're a bit friendlier, provided they at least realize you're not a creep and you have some level of competence (the on1 vs. on2 thing being an additional complicating factor). Then again, I think that's the case in all dance communities except contra.

But I probably will take some salsa lessons to connect to the community at some point. At least after I feel competent in ArT.

hmm... the Lindy scene. Well when I'm at school near etchuck, the "lindy" scence (as seperate from the ECS and WCS scene) is soooo small that you know mostly everyone, so it is very common for women to ask men to dance: we all know each other. I have to admit that when I travel, I have to work up a nerve to ask some to dance, but that's just me :oops: a lot of women ask men to dance at lindy exchanges.

As far as salsa goes, I guess I just don't go out salsa dancing enough. The few times I've been, I spent most of the night watching out for some non-dancer friends who didn't know how to stay away from the few creepy guys.....

Vince A

07-19-2004, 04:16 PM

I rearely even say "no." I'll dance anytime with anyone - male or female.
I dance both ways . . . dance!

DancePoet

07-19-2004, 05:42 PM

I would prefer not to turn a woman down for a dance, but feel similarly to DanceAm regarding this issue.

I have been known to turn a woman down if it's a style I'm not comfortable with, particularly merengue, but I always explain and offer my willingness to dance to another style that evening.

Also, as the studio where I attend most social dances has grown, there now tends to be more women then men. I have a reputation of helping out the owners by asking as many different women as possible to dance over the course of the evening, including the newcomers. I will rest when there is a style of dance that I am not thrilled about, like merengue (Oh...right...I mentioned that already. ;) ), yet I can not dance every dance in a row without occasionally sitting out a style I'd prefer to be dancing. If I need a rest, then I've been known to turn down a request to dance, but I will always explain and promise to come looking for them the next time the same style is played.

I have never had a woman ask too many times. Perhaps this will happen some day, and I may need to turn this person down as well.

In general, the women who ask me to dance are usually women who know me well. Younger women tend to be more likely to ask me, but I have had middle aged women and even occassionally older woman ask me as well. Very rarely have I had a woman who barely knows me ask me to dance. Usually I do the asking, and graciously accept rejections that are received.

I had one recent experience where I was asked by a younger woman to do a hustle. I really like hustle and hated to turn her down, but really needed a rest after at least a half dozen dances in a row and the whole evening in front of me. She really wanted to dance and made it evident that she didn't want to accept my decline, even after my explanation and a promise to come find her for the next hustle. Then she made a sharp retort before walking off. At this point I let it slide, and even asked her to dance later, but I plan to review this with her in my quest to hopefully have her understand where I was coming from, and to hopefully clear up any misunderstanding between us.

Also ... it's very nice when a woman asks me do dance!

Chris Stratton

07-19-2004, 05:52 PM

People who can't handle getting turned down should perhaps take some time to observer the situation before asking - it's often possible to figure out via body language, eye contact, etc, if someone is interested in dancing with you.
Of course it's also possible to be too cautious.

General example: if the person you are interested in dancing with is talking to someone else, and they do not look up as you approach, I really don't think it's polite to interrupt the conversation. Few people will actually say no when so interrupted, but I think it really demonstrates a careless lack of concern on the asker's part.

dancin_feet

07-19-2004, 06:04 PM

I tend to not ask that much, and when I do it is generally to someone I know of my own level who is also just sitting. Despite the fact that I am only 31, I grew up with older parents so I guess the generational thing was a part of my upbringing where I just feel uncomfortable asking someone I don't know to dance.

I am getting better though! :wink:

DancePoet

07-19-2004, 06:19 PM

dancin_feet: Don't hesitate to ask for a dance with someone who is better then you. Particularly in one of your stronger styles. If you know the person even a little, you will be surprised at what may happen!

Also, I understand where you are coming from, it can be challenging to ask someone you are not familiar with to dance. Even if you are a guy like me. I encourage you to keep asking, and it sounds like you are finding a happy medium while building confidence. Way to go!

Swing Kitten

07-20-2004, 06:19 AM

I'm finding that now there are people I have chosen to not ask anymore :shock: but in all fairness I believe they've earned their way onto the list

There were/are a few leads that seem to feel that they are doing me a great favor by dancing with me or say that they owe that dance to someone else and don't ask me later, I give them the benefit of the doubt for a while but after that... no thanks! I don't need that-- and it's not as though they'd miss me anyway-- obviously. It's offensive.

it takes a little longer but if I've gotten to know a lead in a scene (i.e. we dance together on a regular basis) I'll ask for a while but then back off and only ask occasionally and let him take a turn with the thought that if he wanted to dance with me he would.

but then there are those that seem to have a genuinely good time during our dance and seem very sincere when saying thank you... those I'll keep asking forever.

Am I setting myself up to be let down?

MapleLeaf Salsero

07-20-2004, 06:35 AM

I'm finding that now there are people I have chosen to not ask anymore :shock: but in all fairness I believe they've earned their way onto the list

A black list? :wink:

MapleLeaf Salsero

07-20-2004, 07:06 AM

I don´t understand why women complain about not being asked to dance when they sit the entire night in a small inacessable corner. :shock:

First of all, they they stay close to the dance floor and secondly ask the leads for a dance. Most guys will return the invitation if not that night, the following night.

It´s a friendly scene, no-one thinks twice about it. We´re in the 21st century, we should bury old taboos... :roll:

If you feel like dancing, look for a friendly guy who´s style fits yours and ASK him!

Pacion

07-20-2004, 07:14 AM

I agree MapleLeaf, but knowing what funny creatures you men are, you will forget how to ask :wink: so we have to keep you guys in practise :twisted: :lol:

MapleLeaf Salsero

07-20-2004, 07:26 AM

I agree MapleLeaf, but knowing what funny creatures you men are, you will forget how to ask :wink: so we have to keep you guys in practise :twisted: :lol:

Hahaha. We´ve had practise in that all our lives, it´s good to get asked for a change.... :wink:

Once in a while, I do a small experiment. For an hour or so, I just stay near the dance floor without asking for a dance. I wait to see what happens... Sometimes, the results are very interesting... :wink: I call it my "open-minded lady barometer test". 8)

Pacion

07-20-2004, 07:47 AM

Once in a while, I do a small experiment. For an hour or so, I just stay near the dance floor without asking for a dance. I wait to see what happens... Sometimes, the results are very interesting... :wink: I call it my "open-minded lady barometer test". 8)

Than you had better not try that when I am around otherwise I will leave you standing there :twisted: :oops: :lol:

MapleLeaf Salsero

07-20-2004, 07:59 AM

Pacion

07-20-2004, 08:07 AM

:nope: :nope: Not at all. If you look towards the beginning of this thread (top of page 2 to be exact ) :wink: , I said that I ask. I just don't care to ask guys who EXPECT/are waiting to be asked :twisted: :lol:

But, seeing as I am such a helpful person, I have quoted the relevant part of the post for you, right here :wink:

:banana: Ohhhh! I ask! :lol: ...
I used to ask guys I knew throught the classes but a total stranger :shock: Now, I will ask any and everyone :lol: :banana:

Sakura

07-20-2004, 08:11 AM

Pacion

07-20-2004, 08:15 AM

:lol: Sakura

squirrel

07-20-2004, 08:51 AM

:) Princes are never to be left out! As long as they dance Salsa, that is... :)

Swing Kitten

07-20-2004, 12:51 PM

Sagitta

07-20-2004, 12:56 PM

Note to self..get back on the swing scene so you can ask SK!

Chris Stratton

07-20-2004, 01:06 PM

There's a lot of inconsiderate and/or immature behaviour at social dances, both in terms of social interaction and in terms of technical issues in the actual dancing itself (grip of death, unpartnerable actions, failure to lead, failure to wait for a lead).

Unfortunately, a lot of the social protocol makes it nearly impossible for people with these issues to get really unambiguous feedback about them. It's impolite to tell someone why you don't want to dance with them or maybe even that their actions are bothering you - wheras the polite alternative sometimes seems to be to pretend that you want to dance with them but find some excuse why you can't.

I wonder if it isn't generally true that some of the best social dancing occurs between people who interact outside of just dance socials. People who take lessons together, see each other at practices, attend the same competitions, interact socially in other settings, whatever - it seems like the more common experience two people have, the more they are able to pair up for good dancing when appropriate, and not bother each other when innapropriate.

But in truth, even with friends you are sometimes left wondering if they are distracted, purposefully turning a cold shoulder, or what...

Katarzyna

07-20-2004, 01:18 PM

Chris Stratton

07-20-2004, 01:23 PM

For the most part, its difficult to enjoy social dancing with your partner especially when they treat it like practice.

Fortunately, I've only had one partner with this habit.

Katarzyna

07-20-2004, 01:27 PM

Fortunately, I've only had one partner with this habit.
You can consider yourself lucky...

MapleLeaf Salsero

07-20-2004, 01:28 PM

I don´t understand why women complain about not being asked to dance when they sit the entire night in a small inacessable corner. :shock:

:lol: wow... you really don't know me!! hahaa This is anything but the case with me... look at the first page of this thread and what I had to say about it then

Well actually SK I wasn´t referring to you personally, I just hear this complaint a lot from girls. When I look around to see where they are, I usually find them either miles away from the dance floor or sitting down behind several tables looking miserable. My suggestion is pick out a guy and go for it. What´s the problem? We´re in the 21th century and in a "dance atmosphere". Everyone´s there to dance.

I had read your posts and noticed that you ask guys. Good for you!

First of all, they they stay close to the dance floor and secondly ask the leads for a dance. Most guys will return the invitation if not that night, the following night.

exactly.... I have been a very assertive asker for over a year ... but I'm finding some (dare I say most?) guys never return the invitation--
which leads me to question how much they like dancing with me ... I don't want to bother them... I don't want to become a topic on someone else's message board ;) so.... I'm backing off

Well most guys do, but there are certain situations where that doesn´t happen.

This is far from a Black List... if they were to ask me I wouldn't hesitate saying yes. I'm just taking a look around and re-assessing my behavior

Yeah, I know what you meant, I was just kidding. :wink:

DancePoet

07-20-2004, 03:41 PM

Chris Stratton wrote:

"I wonder if it isn't generally true that some of the best social dancing occurs between people who interact outside of just dance socials. People who take lessons together, see each other at practices, attend the same competitions, interact socially in other settings, whatever - it seems like the more common experience two people have, the more they are able to pair up for good dancing when appropriate, and not bother each other when innapropriate."

I suspect this has alot of merit!

I definitely have had some of my best dancing with the folks I have partnered with in competition, and those who have competition experience. There just seems to be a better feel technically and artistically. Next in line after competitors, I have had some great dancing from people I interact with through the classes I take. Also, the more I dance with someone outside these two realms, the nicer the dancing becomes as well.

I feel this is true about most relationships in life. The more similarities you have with another person the easier it is to relate to them.

Sakura

07-20-2004, 11:23 PM

:) Princes are never to be left out! As long as they dance Salsa, that is... :)

:lol: :lol: :lol: Hey, we can't forget those Waltzing skills though! (Go Viennese Waltz!!! =^__^=)

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

MacMoto

07-21-2004, 04:38 AM

I wonder if it isn't generally true that some of the best social dancing occurs between people who interact outside of just dance socials. People who take lessons together, see each other at practices, attend the same competitions, interact socially in other settings, whatever - it seems like the more common experience two people have, the more they are able to pair up for good dancing when appropriate, and not bother each other when innapropriate.
I may be a minority here, but I must say this is not necessarily true for me.

Sure, I've had some wonderful dances with close friends and classmates, but on the other hand, with many of the leaders I count as my favourites, I have no contact outside social dancing. In fact, some of my most memorable dances have been with complete strangers. I can see that personal connection you have already established with a person probably helps when it comes to dancing, but dance connection can exist in the absence of any common experience, and when you find it, it's all the more exciting because of it. You think "WOW, what's happening!?" :!: :shock: as you dance, you can clearly see that your partner is also feeling the same, and you ask for another dance just to see if it will happen again... and it does! That's the magic of social dancing that got me hooked, and that's why I keep asking new people for a dance -- 'cause you don't what you may be missing by sticking to the people you know...

I feel this is true about most relationships in life. The more similarities you have with another person the easier it is to relate to them.
So... what I've descrived is a dance equivalent of "love at first sight"? :lol:

MacMoto

07-21-2004, 04:54 AM

I have been a very assertive asker for over a year ... but I'm finding some (dare I say most?) guys never return the invitation--
which leads me to question how much they like dancing with me ... I don't want to bother them... I don't want to become a topic on someone else's message board ;) so.... I'm backing off
I too am a very assertive asker (or "salsa stalker" (c)Salsachinita :wink:), and I have the same problem with some of the leaders in my scene. There are guys whom I ask regularly because I like dancing with them but who never ask me. Many of them seem to enjoy dancing with me nonetheless, so I give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they wait for me to ask simply because they like getting asked by women. There are though a couple of guys I suspect don't like dancing with me but too polite to tell me, so I'm staying away from them now. (Mind you, this self-restraint may not last long... there's a shortage of good leaders around here.)

What do you guys think?

Lita_rulez

07-21-2004, 05:06 AM

There are guys whom I ask regularly because I like dancing with them but who never ask me. Many of them seem to enjoy dancing with me nonetheless, so I give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they wait for me to ask simply because they like getting asked by women. [/size]

What do you guys think?

Well, I for one am in the cas you describe here : there are some women that I hardly ever invite to dance.

But it is not that I dislike dancing with them : though they are not in my "top five dancer" I do genuinely enjoy dancing with them.

It simply turns out that when the evening begins, I dance with someone else. And as the night unfolds, I happen to be closer to some dancer I wanted to invite then I am to them when a song begins. Or that they are dancing when I want to invite them. Or that I had promised that particular song ton someone. Or that I just hapened on one of my favourit dancer and am therefore going for a few (say 5 to 10, depending on the evening ;) ) dances straight with that partner...

And another good reason is that many people leave around half pas midnight to catch the last metro, whereas I know for a fact that those women have a car and will be staying 'till the club closes, so we can dance later in the evening.

Hence, they almost allways invite me. Not that I don't want to, it's just that they invite me before I get a chance to invite them.

MacMoto

07-21-2004, 07:44 AM

...

Hence, they almost allways invite me. Not that I don't want to, it's just that they invite me before I get a chance to invite them.
OK, I feel better now :).

Danish Guy

07-22-2004, 04:28 PM

Danish Guy

07-22-2004, 04:34 PM

Or that they are dancing when I want to invite them.

This happens a lot for me too. I don’t want to sit and wait, so I dance with someone else, and then the situation repeats itself. :shock:

tsb

07-23-2004, 02:26 AM

for all those positing about why invitations to dance aren't reciprocated, right after the next time you dance with some of these people ask them for feedback:

"if you don't mind my asking, can you tell me one thing i could do that would make me more fun to dance with?"

i had a lot of women tell me that they wished i made more eye contact.

salsachinita

07-23-2004, 02:53 AM

I too am a very assertive asker (or "salsa stalker" (c)Salsachinita :wink:)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

There are guys whom I ask regularly because I like dancing with them but who never ask me. Many of them seem to enjoy dancing with me nonetheless, so I give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they wait for me to ask simply because they like getting asked by women. There are though a couple of guys I suspect don't like dancing with me but too polite to tell me, so I'm staying away from them now.

What do you guys think?

I like Lita & DG's reply. Makes me feel better too :P !

Re asking feedbacks......I always do, but very few give me a straight answer (too polite :? ?).

Something CapricornDancer wrote last night explained something I've always suspected: there are some women I would turn down, even well-liked dance partners, just because I needed rest from their particular style,......... but a different or better dancer would be fine.

It might be a personal style & preference issue :? ......

*SC exists to work on being a more versatile follower :wink: *

etchuck

07-23-2004, 06:40 AM

It's taken me a while to catch up... but I have been thinking more about what Chris had said.

There's a lot of inconsiderate and/or immature behaviour at social dances, both in terms of social interaction and in terms of technical issues in the actual dancing itself (grip of death, unpartnerable actions, failure to lead, failure to wait for a lead).

Unfortunately, a lot of the social protocol makes it nearly impossible for people with these issues to get really unambiguous feedback about them. It's impolite to tell someone why you don't want to dance with them or maybe even that their actions are bothering you - wheras the polite alternative sometimes seems to be to pretend that you want to dance with them but find some excuse why you can't.

Yes... darn "rules." Polite or impolite, this code of silence is exactly why the "creepy people" stick around dancing and are otherwise not weeded out. I'm one who does appreciate etiquette, but unfortunately I don't know anyone that teaches etiquette as part of a dance studio's core curriculum of lessons.

I wonder if it isn't generally true that some of the best social dancing occurs between people who interact outside of just dance socials. People who take lessons together, see each other at practices, attend the same competitions, interact socially in other settings, whatever - it seems like the more common experience two people have, the more they are able to pair up for good dancing when appropriate, and not bother each other when innapropriate.

But in truth, even with friends you are sometimes left wondering if they are distracted, purposefully turning a cold shoulder, or what...

Now I'm not sure. I think that people are most comfortable with people that they know at a social dance. That's a given. Familiarity makes people relax because you at least know what steps the other person probably knows. You may even know what lead to give or follow to do a really cool move. If you're an advanced dancer, you can whip out those gold-level or pre-champ steps with a person whose level you know from competitions. You can't quite do that with a complete stranger unless you can read the lead-follow technique within a matter of seconds of dancing.

So there was another way to intepret what you wrote which I won't agree with. The familiarity above doesn't really foster true social dancing, which is that people dance with other people with whom they are not familiar. You can find out later after a dance whether your behavior was appropriate or inappropriate from your friends (or so I hope); you can't quite do that with people you don't meet except maybe once a month.

As for MacMoto's comments: I enjoy asking others to dance, and I like being asked to dance. I have no one on my list (of followers anyway) with whom I don't want to dance unless they're true beginners and it's not possible to get them to do a basic step. If you're a really good dancer, even a good, competent dancer, I wouldn't refuse dancing with you if you asked.

dancin/dj

07-23-2004, 07:12 AM

there are some women that are sooooooooooo hard to dance a particlar dance style with(say hustle for example) that i try too avoid them-however if i know them and have danced with them before(the bad style :wink: ) i try to dance say a merangie or cha cha ,so they dont feel slighted-usually this is a unspoken thing going on,i have no problem telling someone we dont blend well, if it seems to fit the situation-i know one lady where we agreed we dont dance hustle good together and were very friendly and i dance other types of dances with her if we so choice,so it can work :)

pygmalion

07-24-2004, 02:35 PM

That's interesting. The ladies don't get offended if you'll only dance, say, merengue with them? :?

Sagitta

07-24-2004, 04:23 PM

That's interesting. The ladies don't get offended if you'll only dance, say, merengue with them? :?

When I started latin dancing. I did mostly merengue. I did this as I did not know how to dance salsa at all, and really mangled everyone whom I danced this with. :oops: Now I'll try out merengue with those people whom I know haven't done salsa before. Often these ladies will be quite happy to dance with me, and I probably won't ask them to dance salsa until I think they are ready to follow in that dance. If they ask me, depending on my mood, I'm quite willing to tell them that I love dancing merengue with them and ask them to come get me the next time a merengue comes along. Now as to the getting offended part, I don't really see how that can occur with any sensible person.

danceguy

07-24-2004, 06:17 PM

I definitely encourage women to ask men to dance, but I find it a rare occurance in my area. I will admit I'm getting jealous reading about all the other areas that have more women than men (grrr!), as there are usually way more men than women where I go dancing. Some nights its close to equal, others its 2 to 1 or more. :evil:

With that in mind, most of guys are fighting to get in dances...so the women who are regulars just get to sit back and get asked all night. Not exactly fair, but it is what it is. I get asked to dance every now and then, and I only say no if I'm getting ready to leave. I admire that it takes more courage for a lady to ask a man...however if a lady isn't getting any dances I think she should get up there and ask away! 8)

I wanted to share a good experience from about a month ago that left me quite surprised about a woman who asked me to dance.

I was out at my old Salsa venue...and met these two nice younger ladies who had come to the club together. Both had done little or no Salsa, and it was evident during the lesson that they didn't have much dancing experience.

When the dance started I went and sat down since I was going through major hell at the time and really had a cluttered mind. I didn't have the energy to do much dancing, and then I look up and see one of those young ladies I'd met during the lesson walking towards me.

Now let me just say, this girl will always have my admiration for her courage. Not only a stranger to the club, but a total newbie to Salsa and she just walks across the club (while her friend is watching no less!), sits next to me and says "so what are you sitting down for? Let's dance!"

How could I say no to someone like that? Rare as water in the desert in my experience. I had a great dance with her and I felt bad that I was out of it mentally that I did talk with her much after that. But I promised myself that the next I see her I'm going to make sure to share a few dances with her...we need more women like that in our Salsa scene! :P

ScorpionGuy

07-24-2004, 07:00 PM

rails

07-24-2004, 10:26 PM

I will admit I'm getting jealous reading about all the other areas that have more women than men (grrr!), as there are usually way more men than women where I go dancing. Some nights its close to equal, others its 2 to 1 or more. :evil:

Hey SG, if your local scene is too small and there's not enough women, maybe you could ask your local instructors for a few flyers from them and then go post them up in places where your target demographic is likely to be...

It's worked in the past...

SG lives a little north of here. I've never danced up there, but the scene here is pretty large, I think, and we have the same issue. Men/leaders usually outnumber women/followers at the dances (and almost always in classes). I don't know that there's much to be done about it. Men just plain outnumber women in the Bay Area. One female friend of mine speculated that it was because of the large population of gay men here, but even given that, I read an article in San Francisco magazine that said 2000 census estimates indicated that straight single men in the city outnumber straight single women by the thousands. And I'm sure it's even more out-of-balance in Silicon Valley (also in the Bay Area).

Anyway, the practical upshot is yes, generally women don't have to exert much effort to get opportunities to dance. I'm familiar with two scenes here, lindy hop and salsa. At salsa venues, probably 1% of my dances have been the result of women asking me. Lindy Hop, maybe 5%.

Even given what I've written above, however, I don't really have many complaints about dances. I've found the turn-down rate to be very low in both scenes and the vast majority of women are nice. For example, last night no one asked me to dance, but I asked about 12 women and wasn't turned down once. The experience levels ranged all over, but the attitudes ranged from pleasant to downright sweet. I had a fun night.

SG, I may be repeating myself, but it seems to me that ratios are best on Friday and Saturday nights. Pretty even, in my experience. Last night I think women actually outnumbered men by a bit. However, Cocomo on Thursdays and the Glas Kat on Tuesdays have been pretty bad for me.

The last time I went to Cocomo on a Thursday there was a rotating ring of about 50 guys standing around the dance floor all night, poised to pounce on women coming off the floor who looked increasingly exhausted as the night went on. I'm really not interested in sprinting after potential partners, many of whom look like they'd like to take a break. I haven't been back there in months.

So I skip those two venues and I'm all good.

rails

07-24-2004, 10:34 PM

Sagitta

07-25-2004, 01:29 AM

I don´t understand why women complain about not being asked to dance when they sit the entire night in a small inacessable corner. :shock:

You know, most of the turn-downs I've had were from women sitting a ways off the dance floor. I guess I used to think that maybe they were just shy, but now I've concluded that most of them are away from the floor because they don't want to dance so I stopped asking. Is that bad?

Look!! If you don't ask, you don't dance. Simple as that. When people near the dance floor are inaccessible I must hunt further from the mating...oops :oops: ...dancing grounds. :wink:

MacMoto

07-25-2004, 05:57 AM

Note to self: Go to San Francisco to get a taste of dancing-without-having-to-ask nights.

If anyone here know of any other lead-heavy salsa scenes, please do let me know. I have no qualms about asking men to dance, but I do like it when I get lots of dances without having to stalk leaders... :lol: :wink:

etchuck

07-25-2004, 11:24 AM

I talked to a few people in the salsa scene here. Go to salsa clubs, apparently it's very lead-heavy. Go to swing or ballroom dances, it's very follower heavy.

:?:

So all the more reason why everyone should learn as many dances as possible. :)

danceguy

07-25-2004, 12:31 PM

Hi Rails,

Long time no see! I was down at the Roccapulco a few weeks ago and finally went to the lesson and met the teachers. Although I was physically exhausted and not dancing much, I thought the balance was pretty good. At one point there was a lot of women waiting to be asked and it looked like everyone was having a great time. Well, then there was this crazy Asian girl who kept having her friends spin her 500 times in a row...yikes I stayed far away from them...fun to watch though. :)

Actually, since I was just sitting most of the night and so darn tired, I had a woman who was a complete stranger ask me to dance as I recall. Very good follower too! Hopefully she didn't mind that I stepped on her toes...trust me next time I go I will be in better spirits (or better yet, just drink some!). :wink:

I've been meaning to ask you about Maikos...a lot of folks from around here say its really low key. Is there ample parking nearby? I've been thinking of heading down there but have had too much going on to find the time. Another person recommended the Allegro Ballroom on Sundays down in Emeryville...I hear they draw large crowds.

Overall I've found the gender balance to be more even in the bay area...here its always really lead heavy for Salsa events (the few that we have, there's only one main one). For Ballroom, its usually fairly even...a few extra men at times, but I don't go out all that often.

Are you coming to the Pancho Sanchez concert on Aug 1st (look in the anouncements section)? I hope we get a good crowd...last year when Jimmy Bosch played there were a lot of Salsa dancers but I was a total greenhorn and didn't dance much. And there was a TON of extra women and I regret not dancing more (well I had no idea how to dance then!)...but this year will be different! 8)

Take care,

SG

pygmalion

07-25-2004, 01:58 PM

07-25-2004, 04:36 PM

SG lives a little north of here. I've never danced up there, but the scene here is pretty large, I think, and we have the same issue. Men/leaders usually outnumber women/followers at the dances (and almost always in classes). I don't know that there's much to be done about it. Men just plain outnumber women in the Bay Area. One female friend of mine speculated that it was because of the large population of gay men here, but even given that, I read an article in San Francisco magazine that said 2000 census estimates indicated that straight single men in the city outnumber straight single women by the thousands. And I'm sure it's even more out-of-balance in Silicon Valley (also in the Bay Area).

Not that it matters, but this kinda thing interests me (demographics). Did a quick search and the percentages from the 2000 Census for SF is 50.8% Male and 49.2% Female. So yes, this is about 10,000 more men out of a population of 800,000. Like you say, probably worse in Silicon Valley.

salsachinita

07-25-2004, 08:21 PM

Demographics interest me too :P !

I would like to know what mine is........as the heavy leads occurance only happens in partner dancing venues, according to others :? .

I have a somewhat more relaxing (or less stalking :lol: ) time in Sydney, as the salsa scene there is a wee bit more leads heavy (but still having to ask as I'm a relatively new face there).

rails

07-26-2004, 01:13 AM

Not that it matters, but this kinda thing interests me (demographics). Did a quick search and the percentages from the 2000 Census for SF is 50.8% Male and 49.2% Female. So yes, this is about 10,000 more men out of a population of 800,000. Like you say, probably worse in Silicon Valley.

Okay, I found the article.

According to estimates based on the same (2000) census, unmarried, straight 20- to 44-year old single men actually outnumber single straight women of the same age by 12,000 in the city.

I'd be willing to bet that that number has grown since 2000 and the dot-com bust, but evidence would be anecdotal.

Sagitta

07-26-2004, 01:20 AM

Lead heavy? last couple nights that's the way it has been here. Hmmm....I find followers heavy sometimes. Seriously. In AT tonight there are some people who are light and esay to move, and others whom I seem to struggle with. :? :oops:

It all comes down to my lead. The other night I was told in rueda it was a gentle lead and they liked it...and that's how I like my leads to be. Wait a moment! Well, actually I like something a little heavier as a follow since I'm a little deaf - a personal leader/follower inexperience imbalance. :oops:

My head is spinning. Just realized I changed topic with almost every other sentence. I'm going to lie down now.

rails

07-31-2004, 01:51 AM

Hi Rails,
I've been meaning to ask you about Maikos...a lot of folks from around here say its really low key. Is there ample parking nearby? I've been thinking of heading down there but have had too much going on to find the time. Another person recommended the Allegro Ballroom on Sundays down in Emeryville...I hear they draw large crowds.

Yup, low-key it is. It's a small venue with mostly intermediate and beginning level dancers. The crowd tends to be older than Roccapulco and Cocomo on the same night. In my experience you can always find a decent amount of dance space too. I actually went there last Saturday. There were a lot of beginning follows so I spent most of the night doing the simplest of patterns, breaking away for shines or just goofing around in closed position or open/double hand-hold. Oh yeah, there's plenty of parking on the street.

Frankly, Allegro on Sundays may be THE place for salsa in the area. It's a studio. No alcohol and no atmosphere, but the floor is large and it attracts big crowds of people who are there only to dance. It wouldn't surprise me if there were the same number of people there as, say, Cocomo on a Saturday. However, at the latter half the people are there to have drinks, yell into each other's ear, listen to the band and flirt with strangers. Not that there's anything wrong with all of that, but it's quite different from the pure dance crowd you see at Allegro.

Are you coming to the Pancho Sanchez concert on A
ug 1st (look in the anouncements section)? I hope we get a good crowd...last year when Jimmy Bosch played there were a lot of Salsa dancers but I was a total greenhorn and didn't dance much. And there was a TON of extra women and I regret not dancing more (well I had no idea how to dance then!)...but this year will be different! 8)

Take care,

SG

Thanks for the word. I won't be able to make it up there this weekend, but have a blast. Should be quite a change for you from last year.

MacMoto

10-10-2004, 06:16 AM

There are already threads on this topic, and I think we pretty much agree that it's a perfectly acceptable thing to do, but this time I'm interested in finding out how many people actually do it, how often and why/why not.
These days I do MOST of the asking :oops: -- maybe about 70-80% of the dances I get I get by asking rather than being asked -- but I do not think this is common.

Ladies, do you ask guys to dance or do you normally wait to be asked? If you do ask, how often? Do you ask anyone or just guys you know/danced with before? What factors do you consider when you decide to ask (or not to ask)?

Guys, how often do you get asked by women? Are you asked mostly by women you've danced with before, or do strangers come up to you to dance?

I do most of the asking because:
- I hate sitting out songs -- I go to dance venues to DANCE, not to chat or watch.
- I live in a follow-heavy scene.

And I actually like asking because:
- That's the best way to make sure you get to dance with your favourite leads in a follow-heavy scene.
- You can match the partner with the song. When the intro of a song starts, I think: "which leader do I want to dance to this song with?" and go get the man :lol:, or one of the suitable men. It may be a Cuban vs. LA thing (if the song has a strong flavour) or more to do with the lead style (soft & sensual, funky, playful, dynamic, etc.). Also, you need to choose the song.

In other words, I do it because asking increases your chance of getting a good dance fix.

I also ask strangers (as evident from the "How many strangers can you dance with" Day (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?p=87459) thread), but when I'm at a venue that attract a lot of non-dancing, drinking crowd, I only ask the guys I've seen dancing earlier and know to be dancers. I can't think of a situation where I'd only ask guys I know/have danced with but that's just me :roll: :lol:

motardmom

10-10-2004, 08:21 AM

Lately I don't ask men to dance because I never seem to be sitting down long enough to do so. But I totally would given the proper climate. Years ago I was in a follow-heavy scene and I did do a lot of asking back then. I agree, it guarantees you'll get to dance with who you want for what song, etc. Back then I had a reasonably large circle of friends who all met and we'd dance with each other, and we'd dance with strangers and we'd dance with ourselves.... :lol: It was good fun. I remember that I used to always scope out who seemed to be able to keep time when dancing (not necessarily had lots of moves, but they had to be able to stay on the beat) and not so overly involved in picking up chicks, and then if I found myself sitting out when I didn't want to be, I'd go find somebody I'd mentally tagged for a potential dance partner.

Pacion

10-10-2004, 08:21 AM

Depending on my mood, I will either ask a lot of guys to dance, or "one or two". Like you, I ask because I want to dance and hate to see good music wasted :lol:

Before I ask a guy to dance though, I will often observe him first to see if he is possibly alone or with a significant other and then tailor my approach.

If it is a venue with a lot of non dancers/drinkers, like you, I would also have to see the guy dance. Even if he is all legs and thumbs, I want to see what I am letting myself in for, so that I can manage my expectations :lol: In addition, I don't want the guy to think that I am coming on to him when all I want is a dance! :? :lol:

ShyDancer

10-10-2004, 08:33 AM

I do ask guys to dance. Not very often though as I usually have an offer before Im even off the floor lately :lol:
The follows only slightly outweigh the leads and as I know most of the people in my scene its not often that Im sitting out a dance because I dont have a partner .

Usually I just ask "would you like to dance this?" or if i know them well enough its "come and dance with me!" :lol: Never had anyone refuse me yet :D

tacad

10-10-2004, 11:26 AM

Once in a while someone will ask me. Also after having asked them sometimes they will ask me to ask them again. So usually when I am asked they already know me or have danced with me. Mostly I am the one doing the asking though. Sometimes someone will do the thing where they stand next to me or sit near me or intimate in some other way they would like a dance. This is usually when I don't know them.

rails

10-10-2004, 12:09 PM

Guys, how often do you get asked by women? Are you asked mostly by women you've danced with before, or do strangers come up to you to dance?

Well, as you may recall, I'm in a lead-heavy place. I get asked maybe once a night in Lindy Hop and maybe once a week in Salsa. Of course, most of the time I know the women, but in the Lindy scene I get asked by strangers every now and then (maybe once a week). In Salsa it hardly ever happens. Women just don't do a lot of asking around here.

One day I'll have to visit one of these allegedly "follow-heavy" scenes and see for myself what that's like. I have to admit, I'm not sure that such a thing exists. :wink:

Tasek

10-10-2004, 01:16 PM

Would have to keep a real tally a few times to be sure, but i'd estimate I do about 75-80% of the asking, when i'm asked the vast majority is by girls I know/have danced with before, very rarely do I get asked by a complete stranger, can remember maybe 3-4 occiasions that has happend over the last few years.

Ofcourse this is direct asking, there is also 'indirect asking', e.g. last friday, came back to my drink after a few dances, a nearby girl got off her barstool, give me a quick look and started moving to the music in my field of view, 'indirect asking' (as far as you can tell for sure ofcourse) does happen from time to time and could skew the figures somewhat.

danceguy

10-10-2004, 01:41 PM

One day I'll have to visit one of these allegedly "follow-heavy" scenes and see for myself what that's like. I have to admit, I'm not sure that such a thing exists. :wink:

Hear hear! :shock: :D

One of the main reasons I've taken a break from dancing is that my progress as a lead has been seriously hampered by the gender imbalances in the areas I go dancing. For Salsa, I get asked to dance once in a blue moon, but it does happen on occasion. For Ballroom, I get asked a lot (I was asked about 6 times this past Friday), and at those venues the gender ratio is pretty even.

I recall one night where we had a few extra ladies at our local Salsa venue...and I danced for almost 2 hours straight...then another hour after a short break. I had the time of my life...what a concept...women available to dance with!?!?!!!?! :shock: :oops: :headwall: :oops: :lol:

I love to dance...and I hate sitting down! A follow-heavy scene...is that really possible? A guy can dream can't he? :eyebrow: :roll: :shock: :wink:

SG

Pacion

10-10-2004, 01:57 PM

A follow-heavy scene...is that really possible? A guy can dream can't he? :eyebrow: :roll: :shock: :wink:

SG

Can anyone say "recruit" :twisted: :wink:

MacMoto

10-11-2004, 05:48 AM

One day I'll have to visit one of these allegedly "follow-heavy" scenes and see for myself what that's like. I have to admit, I'm not sure that such a thing exists. :wink:
Well, considering I never imagined such a thing as a "lead-heavy scene" could possibly exist... :wink:

We should definitely have a swap.

Lita_rulez

10-11-2004, 06:08 AM

Hum...

From the top of my head, I'd say fifty-fifty.

Half the time I do the asking, half the time I am asked.

The only thing is that I tend to ask the more advance follow a lot more than the less advance. Not that I dislike dancing with the second, but the first are a lot more popular, and if you want a dance, well, you usualy have to ask for they can hardly sit down from all the people asking. So I will ask them, and I am usually intercepted and asked by other follows before I get a chance to invite them later on.

salsachinita

10-11-2004, 06:11 AM

This whole gender imbalance issue can, and does get annoying......

I also live in a follow-heavy scene. You guys should definitely come visit. See this thread http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=5725.......

*The plan* anyone :wink: ?!

Sabor

10-11-2004, 08:13 AM

how about women asking women.. hmm.. mm....mmm

:mrgreen:

10-11-2004, 08:17 AM

how about women asking women.. hmm.. mm....mmm

:mrgreen:

Lol!

sunderi

10-11-2004, 12:58 PM

Ladies, do you ask guys to dance or do you normally wait to be asked? If you do ask, how often? Do you ask anyone or just guys you know/danced with before? What factors do you consider when you decide to ask (or not to ask)?

I would say I do the asking for about 75% of my social dancing. Keep in mind that most of my "social" dancing happens at studio practice parties, not out at clubs. (Out at clubs I most often dance with my husband, and he probably asks me slightly more than I ask him, but that's a different situation than the one you're asking about.)

I will ask brand new people who look like they could use a friendly face and an invitation. :) Mostly, though, I ask the guys I know and like to dance with. Of the 50+ people that usually show up at our practice parties, there are exactly 12 that I particularly enjoy dancing with. I do my best to dance with all 12 in the course of the evening, and in order to do that, I often have to ask.

I like asking. It gives me more control over who I dance with, and particularly, who I dance with for each song. There's one guy that I love to cha cha with, for example, and another who is great at WCS. There are others I'd just like to get a dance with, so I'm happy to dance with them to whatever is on. It helps prevent me from sitting out to those songs I really like. :-D

I also am in a "follow heavy" situation, so asking prevents sitting out in general.

Of these 12 guys, only one of them is typically there with his wife. I will hesitate to ask him if they are talking, or if it looks like he's going to dance with her. Otherwise, I don't hesitate at all, unless they're on their way out to the floor with someone else. ;)

Pacion

10-11-2004, 03:52 PM

how about women asking women.. hmm.. mm....mmm

:mrgreen:

Lol!

::: foot tapping, arms crossed ::: keep this up you two! YOU will be having to do the asking to dance ALL the time at this rate :P

10-11-2004, 04:56 PM

how about women asking women.. hmm.. mm....mmm

:mrgreen:

Lol!

::: foot tapping, arms crossed ::: keep this up you two! YOU will be having to do the asking to dance ALL the time at this rate :P

Well, I'll ask Sabor if he refuses to ask me!

:wink:

Sagitta

10-11-2004, 04:57 PM

There are a few guys whom I know don't mind dancing with me, so hey why not?

I was thinking about this the other days. I have tried all sorts of footwear and so now it is time for me to work my way upwards.

10-11-2004, 05:07 PM

There are a few guys whom I know don't mind dancing with me, so hey why not?

Lol - you're gonna get in trouble like Sabor and myself, you know!

Actually, there was this one time that 2 of my friends and I were sharing a dance with this one Follow, when 2 other Follows came up to us and "interrupted" our dance. Rather funny, I think.

I was thinking about this the other days. I have tried all sorts of footwear and so now it is time for me to work my way upwards.
????

I also am in a "follow heavy" situation, so asking prevents sitting out in general.

(...makes a mental note...) Lol - I guess I need to venture out of my "safe" salsa club world...

Sagitta

10-11-2004, 05:14 PM

Sometimes I see two follows dancing and then me and someone else go break them up.

I was thinking of different bottoms and tops. I thought that a kilt would work well to start out with as I already have dance in shorts and long pants and jeans.

As for dancing as a follower after a warm up dance, when I have reprogrammed myself, I'm an okay beginner follower.

MacMoto

10-14-2004, 03:54 AM

I was thinking of different bottoms and tops. I thought that a kilt would work well
:D Someone mentioned kilt!? :lol: :lol:
So when do we get to see a picture of you in a kilt?

Warning: don't wear your high heels :shock: with the kilt. They just don't go together. :wink: :lol:

motardmom

10-14-2004, 06:21 AM

cocodrilo

10-14-2004, 06:38 AM

how about women asking women.. hmm.. mm....mmm

:mrgreen:I've been asked by lots of girls to dance. I guess we must look pretty good dancing together as I am about a foot taller than most Japanese girls, but unfortunately I don't know how to lead.

I've asked guys on many occasions to dance, usually when there is a really hot song I HAVE to dance to or if the guy was just irresistably cute 8) .

Sabor

10-14-2004, 06:55 AM

well.. i'd ask u for sure Coco.. i could tell u'd be alot of fun dancing.. i always could tell about salseras :D .. and no worries, i'll be way taller :wink:

cocodrilo

10-14-2004, 06:59 AM

well.. i'd ask u for sure Coco.. i could tell u'd be alot of fun dancing.. i always could tell about salseras :D .. and no worries, i'll be way taller :wink:OK, and I'll be sure to bathe before we dance! :lol: :lol: :lol: BTW, how tall ARE you? :shock:

Sabor

10-14-2004, 07:08 AM

LOL.. no worries.. i also can tell that u are fresh as a flower after a mild rain.. :wink: hey, Japanese are famous for their care with cleanliness,, one of the things i love about that culture 8)

i'm 6'3 ft.

Pacion

10-14-2004, 07:10 AM

i'm 6'3 ft.

And that is with his lime green socksies on :twisted:

cocodrilo

10-14-2004, 07:18 AM

Sabor

10-14-2004, 07:23 AM

sure does :D

bailamos

10-14-2004, 07:56 AM

MacMoto

10-14-2004, 08:11 AM

Welcome to DF, bailamos! :D

How often do you ask guys now?

And yes, I want to know what guys feel about being asked by women too!

MacMoto

10-14-2004, 08:18 AM

how about women asking women.. hmm.. mm....mmm

:mrgreen:I've been asked by lots of girls to dance.
Hmm, interesting.
The only time I ask women to dance is when I'm willing to lead. I sometimes ask absolute beginner ladies who are watching dancers, moving their body to the music and looking ask if they want to join in. Since I can't lead more than the basic step and turns, I don't ask women who can dance. When a woman asks me to dance (this does happen occasionally since I'm in a follow-heavy scene), I take that to mean she is going to lead. I feel it's a bit cheeky to ask a woman to lead me, even when I know she can lead and have seen her lead other women.

Any thoughts?

10-14-2004, 08:29 AM

Welcome to DF, bailamos! :D

How often do you ask guys now?

Ditto that! Welcome to DF!

And yes, I want to know what guys feel about being asked by women too!
In general, we like it.

I was asked by this one particularly awesome dancer on Monday. Quite the honor - I'm still smiling about it...

Actually, if a woman comes up and starts talking to me, I'll usually take the hint and ask her to dance once a new song comes on.

etchuck

10-14-2004, 08:35 AM

By intention, I usually do sit out a few songs. More to be sure I'm not completely wiped out by the end of the evening, but I also see exactly how friendly and courageous some of the women are in terms of asking me to dance. I may get asked perhaps 5 times for a 3-hour dance.

How do I feel about it? Heck, I'm all for it. To heck with the stereotypical demure wallflower that women are supposed to be. If you know I'm a good dancer and you want to dance with me, if I'm taking a break, go ahead and be a... woman.

bailamos

10-14-2004, 09:19 AM

Thanks all for the welcome. :D

I have no problem asking men to dance now, I am even bolder now and ask top level dancers! I have no shame!
But I do have my amateur dancer partner now with whom I dance with about 90% of the time. We are always working on our dances and technique, we take every opportunity to practice what we learn in a lesson.

Getting back to the subject at hand.......... At a social stituation where there may be a cross generation of ages, I have often wondered if an older gentleman would feel awkward to be asked to dance by a lady?

Tetsuyama

10-14-2004, 10:05 AM

pygmalion

10-14-2004, 10:08 AM

Hi Tetsuyama! Welcome. :D

tacad

10-14-2004, 10:26 AM

I was very shy in asking someone to dance because I was unsure of my dancing and following abilities and sat out many dances. :cry:
I am now more confident now and fortunate that I do get asked to dance. But I always wonder, how do the guys feel about getting asked to dance? Do they feel they awkward and that they should make their choice?

Guys? Tell us your side.

Hi bailamos! Being asked to dance is pretty cool actually. Not a problem at all. I suppose it gives me a break from being the pursuer and I get to feel pursued for a second.

squirrel

10-14-2004, 10:49 AM

I've been asked to dance as a lead by some follows (I am a follow, for the record). I find it flattering and fun! Still, I noticed that only women who have the guts to ask guys to dance also invite me... and not all of them! Just some... (I'm not counting friends in...)

Tetsuyama

10-14-2004, 02:42 PM

Hi Tetsuyama! Welcome. :D

Thank you! Glad to be here. I've been reading the forums for several days, but only now finally got around to posting. :)

I probably should have answered Bailamos' question specifically in my previous post: the leads I know are all generally pretty flattered if a follow asks them for a dance. So I second Tacad's post -- it's cool; not a problem at all.

10-14-2004, 02:44 PM

At the small ballroom studio I go to most of the time, it's no big deal for the follows to ask leads to dance. Probably partially a result of it not being a pick-up joint, and partially because there's a really supportive learning atmosphere.

It's been a while since I went to some of the bigger dance halls in downtown Seattle, but it seems far less common in those situations from what I remember. Of course, it *has* been about four years since I was going out downtown on anything like a regular basis, so things may have changed...

It's unusual for a Follow to ask a Lead in the Seattle Salsa scene (such as the Century). I knew several Leads who bitched and moaned about it. Of course, that depends who you are - the Chavez bros and the Salvaje guys for example get asked a lot. But avg joe schmoe won't typically get asked by a Follow who doesn't already know him.

(In my observations, at least.)

Sagitta

10-14-2004, 02:52 PM

And yes, I want to know what guys feel about being asked by women too!
In general, we like it.

I was asked by this one particularly awesome dancer on Monday. Quite the honor - I'm still smiling about it...

Actually, if a woman comes up and starts talking to me, I'll usually take the hint and ask her to dance once a new song comes on.

I usually do the same, if a lady comes up to talk to me. :)

jon

10-14-2004, 05:45 PM

And yes, I want to know what guys feel about being asked by women too!

It's great, as long as the woman is someone I enjoy dancing with, and not crazy.

clave

10-14-2004, 11:50 PM

MacMoto wrote:
> And yes, I want to know what guys feel about being asked by women too!

I love it but it hardly ever happens in the salsa scene. I never refuse a dance, but I imagine if you're asking a superstar dude a refusal for various good reasons is more likely, so ask no more than once per evening unless you know the person.

Spitfire

10-15-2004, 01:29 AM

Guys, how often do you get asked by women? Are you asked mostly by women you've danced with before, or do strangers come up to you to dance?

I get asked most often by women who I've danced with before, but it's not unusual for ones who are strangers to ask.

blue

10-15-2004, 02:04 AM

Glad to be here. I've been reading the forums for several days, but only now finally got around to posting. :)

Hi... and welcome Tetsuyama... um, what is it like to dance with a Steelmountain? 8) It sounds... well, should be steady as a rock. :)

MacMoto

10-15-2004, 02:06 AM

And yes, I want to know what guys feel about being asked by women too!

It's great, as long as the woman is someone I enjoy dancing with, and not crazy.
:shock: Talking from experience are you Jon?

... ask no more than once per evening unless you know the person.
Yes, this is one rule I follow when I don't know the guy (except when we are SERIOUSLY short of men).

Welcome to DF, Clave :)

jon

10-15-2004, 02:23 AM

It's great, as long as the woman is someone I enjoy dancing with, and not crazy.
:shock: Talking from experience are you Jon?

Yes. Without going into gory details, suffice it to say that I have been close to several women who were clinically moderately to severely mentally ill (severely as in "self-committed for considerable periods of time, and unable to function even marginally in day-to-day life without a combination of frequent psychotherapy and lithium"); that these women had become very good at hiding their problems in casual social interactions and it only became apparent once we were involved; that relationships with such people are very draining in terms of the emotional energy flow, and very frustrating and unsatisfying; and that as a result, while I feel compassion for anyone suffering that degree of mental illness, I will not ever again voluntarily become close to someone with such problems.

So I am very, very careful about interacting with anyone who show anything that I interpret as a sign of craziness. Better safe than sorry.

Shoe Kitty

01-01-2005, 08:52 PM

2 interesting dynamics:

1) Last night I met someone who said she would never ask a man to dance because she didn't want to beg. She said that she'd been around for long enough for everyone to know who she was and what her dance skills were, and that if they wanted to dance with her, they would ask.

2) She also mentioned that she felt that if she asked the guy to dance, then she would feel the pressure of being expected to be able to follow everything he led; while if a guy asked her, then it was his risk - whatever she could do, that's what he got.

(Apologies if you read this forum, but I thought these were very interesting questions!)

I've only been dancing in this scene a few months and have totally different ideas about both these things.

On the former, I feel like, if I want to be on the dance floor and no one has asked me to dance, then I have to go out there and get someone. I do remember that when I was growing up, girls didn't ask guys out on dates, but I kind of deleted that concept from my mind in recent years at least when it comes to just being out social dancing.

On the latter, my observation has been that most leads guage my dancing level pretty quickly and based on their own skill level, respond in their own way. (I dance at I guess advanced beginner or intermediate level.) The least skilled leads only lead basics, intermediate leads lead stuff at about my level, and the most competent leads lead just slightly above my level, but not beyond, both inspiring and challenging me.

What do the rest of you think? (both leads and follows)

Sagitta

01-01-2005, 09:05 PM

(Apologies if you read this forum, but I thought these were very interesting questions!)

No need to apologize.

I am happy to meet a kindred spirit Shoe Kitty. I believe that if women come to dance and don't get enough dances they should ask men to dance. I don't think asking a leader for a dance naturally begets the expectation that the follower should be able to follow everything that a leader does.

But, then, I'm a little different from most people. When I dance I expect there to be a trully equal partnership. I give my partner a lot of free rein and opportunities to do stuff. I don't mind hijacking, and enjoy playing around. Take this week for instance. I started dancing with this wonderful lady on Tuesday night. By Saturday I was doing a lot more complicated moves with her and we were doing some playing back and forth while dancing our restful laidback style. :)

Shoe Kitty

01-01-2005, 09:13 PM

(I was apologizing to the woman I was talking to last night in case SHE reads this forum.)

Sagitta

01-01-2005, 09:22 PM

(I was apologizing to the woman I was talking to last night in case SHE reads this forum.) Oops. :oops:

youngsta

01-01-2005, 10:06 PM

I think you've got the right idea. If you don't take the initiative to ask sometimes you'll end up sitting out songs far more often than you'd like. How is it begging to ask someone to dance? I'm not sure where that kind of thinking comes from.

As far as part 2 to the question, well...welcome to our world! :lol: No, all joking aside, you're not putting on a performance out there. No reason to put pressure on yourself like that to expect to follow everything thrown out there. Just go out there, relax, and dance your heart out. That's all we as leads need from a partner :wink:

motardmom

01-02-2005, 02:30 AM

She's thinking about it too much, overanalyzing it. She needs to let go and just have a good time.

I think if women want to dance and they are not, they should ask. I have never begged for a dance. I have walked up to a man and asked him politely for a dance before, out of the blue. More often than that, tho, I will try to catch someone's eye, nod my head towards the floor, and they will often catch my drift. My scene is lead-heavy, I'm not often the one doing the asking. But I totally would. It's not that big of a deal. I'm a big girl, I can be responsible for my own dancing enjoyment. But often if I need a rest or have an off night, guys will stop asking after I've turned them down a couple times and so I when I'm ready to start dancing again, I need to encourage them.

And about pressure... She's overanalyzing again. She needs to think less and feel more. I think the more she thinks about pressure and expecation the less she's going to just enjoy the dancing. He's probably not analyzing her, he's probably wondering why she feels so tense. And she's probably tense because she's worried that she's not meeting his expectations - when he probably doesn't have any.

Just chill........

amrimi

01-02-2005, 04:16 AM

I only ask guys that I know for a dance because in my scene (salsa) it is not very advisable to ask guys that one doesn't know. More often than not girls that ask a guy for a dance become subject to groping. So that is something that I really want to avoid. But if there is a guy I would like to dance with I might still end up dancing with him, but I have to be more subtle than just walk up to him and ask. Most of the time the time it works pretty good if I position myself somewhere near him and start dancing little bit by myself. Usually this will catch his attention and then he will come up himself and ask me and I have avoided the problem of asking him and I'll be save from groping.

Lucretia

01-02-2005, 08:55 AM

She also mentioned that she felt that if she asked the guy to dance, then she would feel the pressure of being expected to be able to follow everything he led; while if a guy asked her, then it was his risk - whatever she could do, that's what he got.

I believe this is the major point - lack of confidence. I argued the same when I was a true newbie in Salsa. Now I feel more confident and ask guys for a dance.

Perhaps you or someone else can help her to feel more confident.
Perhaps the problem is of a much more deep nature than "just" dancing.

/Luc

dancin/dj

01-02-2005, 09:41 AM

ask ask ask, i like it when ladies ask me to dance(unless she"s someone who pulls and yanks and dips herself :shock: )please dont dip yourself ladies especially if your reallllllllllllly big :shock: (im really good at dips and lifts but i need too do it with whom and how too so its done right) anyway go for it,i tell all my female friends to ask guys too dance ,unless you live somewhere like this young lady mentioned in germany where in salsa you could get groped, so other than those type of situations that mindset (waits for guys to ask ) all the time -ahhhhhhhhhhhh (old school) even in the dating world be more bold and you may get what you want :) ,when i was growing up(in the 70"s) young girls would have there girlfriends call on the phone and say so and so likes you, do you like her? and i say yeah, and bam, they put her on the phone-yeah baby, girl power 8) work it girls work it.

blue

01-02-2005, 09:54 AM

I only ask guys that I know for a dance because in my scene (salsa) it is not very advisable to ask guys that one doesn't know. More often than not girls that ask a guy for a dance become subject to groping. So that is something that I really want to avoid.

Yuck.

Is the risk of groping less if the unknown guy asks you to dance? If so, there is some strange dynamics at work here. I mean, why would a guy grope if asked to dance but not when he asks himself?

Sagitta

01-02-2005, 11:38 AM

I only ask guys that I know for a dance because in my scene (salsa) it is not very advisable to ask guys that one doesn't know. More often than not girls that ask a guy for a dance become subject to groping. So that is something that I really want to avoid.

Yuck.

Is the risk of groping less if the unknown guy asks you to dance? If so, there is some strange dynamics at work here. I mean, why would a guy grope if asked to dance but not when he asks himself?

Because if a girl asks she is coming on to a guy, or indicating that she wants him, perhaps?

blue

01-02-2005, 11:50 AM

In a dance setting? Well... these guys can't think too much of themselves as dancers, then :shock: assuming it is something else that she wants.

Maybe you are right. To me it sounds more like "good girls don't ask" so if you do ask you are not a good girl. I am just speculating, though.

Sagitta

01-02-2005, 12:34 PM

In a dance setting? Well... these guys can't think too much of themselves as dancers, then :shock: assuming it is something else that she wants.

Maybe you are right. To me it sounds more like "good girls don't ask" so if you are you are not a good girl. I am just speculating, though.

True. Perhaps in Germany...grope settings etc..

Not where I am. Those who do ask have a lot more fun - I have checked. :)

Pacion

01-02-2005, 01:53 PM

Hi Shoe Kitty. I think as a female, it can be all to easy to be in the "old fashioned way" ie not asking a guy to dance. I didn't always ask a guy to dance. It was something I "learnt" to do because my desire to dance was stronger than my desire to be a wall flower :? AND I also travelled a bit therefore would be seeking out salsa and wanting to dance, where I knew NO ONE.

Some of the guys I first asked to dance, we became salsa friends and I give thanks that I found the courage to ask them to dance otherwise some of experiences I have had would not have happened. :banana:

You didn't mention what form of dance you were doing. For me, I don't feel any pressure in salsa because I know there are different styles and different ways of leading etc. Therefore, I see it as a challenge more than as a hinderance trying to keep up :wink:

blue

01-02-2005, 02:09 PM

1) Last night I met someone who said she would never ask a man to dance because she didn't want to beg. She said that she'd been around for long enough for everyone to know who she was and what her dance skills were, and that if they wanted to dance with her, they would ask.

2) She also mentioned that she felt that if she asked the guy to dance, then she would feel the pressure of being expected to be able to follow everything he led; while if a guy asked her, then it was his risk - whatever she could do, that's what he got.

I agree with Pacion. Asking is kind of hard. You do take a risk. Not asking is making it easier for yourself in a way - if you still get all the dancing you want. If the lady in question really is a very good dancer, then her statement possibly could be read as pride in not having to ask anymore.

As a extreme wet-behind-the-ears-beginner, I got so tired of asking - and sometimes the leaders showed me I was not so fun to dance with - that I decided I would not ask anymore. So for a while I didn't. Then some people started asking me, and after a while we came to the stage of looking at each other and no one really had to ask. And after that - I was not afraid of asking any more, and joined MacMoto's "always ask a stranger to dance"-game.

Pacion

01-02-2005, 02:22 PM

:applause: good for you blue!

Something else I equate with this is a woman (or a guy even) going out to a restaurant and dining by herself. You tend to see more guys doing this than women. BUT again, if you are forced to step outside of your comfort zone (travelling due to work or you really want to go somewhere and your friends don't want to) then what is the alternative? To dine in your room and watch the news? Or, grab a book/magazine and go and sample the food/atmosphere at the restaurant?

As with anything, it takes a while for the nerves to settle down but as the saying/book title says: "Feel the fear and do it anyway".

(PS. "Fear" is a good defence mechanism and can keep you safe, as it could be your intuition/gut feeling at work. However, if you "look" at your fear and work out that the reason that you are afraid is because it is "for fear of rejection", then it may be time to start looking at that "fear".)

squirrel

01-03-2005, 06:38 AM

There is this guy in our scene who is perceived as very arrogant. He started a fight with me once over an innocent joke of mine and ever since he has not been talking to me. This has gone on for 2 years. And we had been on very good terms before that.
About a year ago, I went over and invited him to dance. He refused me flat. I didn't say anything, shrugged and invited someone else.
I invited him again last night... and guess what... he said yes! :)
I am sure his saying yes also had to do with the fact that I am friends now with one of his best friends, a woman whose judgment he appreciates (if she likes me, this means I am not "that bad"...). Also, I have been pointing out to her that I do not hate or despise him, and that I would like to at least be civil to each other. :). I don't like "grudges" and even though the guy tried to offend me (said he is so much better than I was and he had nothing to learn from me, therefore he wouldn't dance with me) I didn't let him. I don't intend to be his friend, but we can say hi and maybe dance with one another once in a blue moon... :)
So inviting guys to dance can be pretty hard... all you need is to understand they are no better than you, just your equals... :)

MapleLeaf Salsero

01-03-2005, 08:08 AM

Well, in my local scene, there are an increasing number of ladies who ask men to dance. I´m all for it and beleive it´s very healthy for the dance atmosphere.

I must admit I got surprised after reading item b) of shoe kitty´s post. I can´t imagine why a follow would even think such a thing. :shock: A good lead after doing the basic step and maybe one or two other moves can easily discover at what level she´s at and accomodate his lead accordingly. Dancing is not about being able to follow everything the lead dishes out.

Actually here, most of the beginner/intermediate followers prefer to invite the advanced leads. Why? Because the good leads never ask them.

Regarding groping, I´d have to agree with Blue on this. If the lead is there to grope, he´ll prefer to choose/select his victims. :wink:

ReneeJoan

01-03-2005, 12:32 PM

When I first started dancing, I felt very uncomfortable asking a man to dance. I also cried A LOT. I'd tear myself to pieces after every milonga -- what was wrong with me? Was I not pretty enough? Was I too fat? Was I not sexy enough? Why did girls who couldn't dance as well as me get dance after dance, while I sat out the entire evening? Some nights, I would go home literally ready to slit my wrists (I am not exagerating) I was so upset and angry and hurt.

Then one day, I don't remember how or when, I realized that I was measuring my worth and value as a woman and as a person by whether or not I was being asked to dance, and this was why I was so hurt when men would pass me by. I reasoned that if I were only a better person, a prettier/thinner woman, a better dancer I would get lots of dances and since I wasn't, there was something hideously wrong with me that no one had enough compassion to tell me, and therefore, I was not worthy of life.

Well, somehow, I managed to see through the error in that logic, and I realized that I had three choices if no one was asking me to dance. 1) Sit and enjoy the music, look at the fabulous gowns and shoes on the other dancers and study their moves; 2) Go home; or 3) Go ask someone to dance with me.

Once I stopped measuring my worth as a human being and a woman by how many dance invitations I got, and realized that I was a modern, liberated 21st Century woman living in Los Angeles (not Buenos Aires), and I had as much right to ask a man to dance as he had to ask me -- as long as I was willing to accept the refusals with the same good grace that men have learned to exhibit, then all was fair in love, war, and tango.

It was really an eye-opening experience. Putting myself on the other side of the equation really taught me that my wall-flower experience had NOTHING TO DO WITH ME AS A PERSON. I discovered that a lot of men were really, REALLY shy about asking a woman to dance whom they didn't know. If I'd come regularly to a milonga and make the effort to engage some of the fellows in conversation that they started asking me to dance, and once they got to know me as a person and experienced my ability, they became my regulars. I also discovered that men often feel just as insecure about their ability as I do, and that not all men feel comfortable dancing all kinds of tango. Some only like the slow tangos. Others only like to dance the quick, club-style tangos. Some can't dance milonga. Others will ONLY dance milonga. And that adorable guy across the room who is studiously avoiding your eyes, turns out cannot seem to get Vals Cruzada to save his life!! Still others have wives/dates, and their companion for the evening would probably slit their throats if they give even a nanosecond of attention to another woman. And the biggest surprise of all, more than one man admitted that he was scared to ask me because I was such a good dancer!! (And I was beating myself up for being too inept!! Wow!! That was a surprise.)

Now, I cheerfully "pounce" whenever I don't feel like sitting. But there are a few "rules." 1) Accept with grace when a man refuses and don't take it personally, and take it for granted he has a valid reason -- number one reason? He just finished a really vigorous milonga, is sweating like a horse, and wants to rest for a few numbers. Accept his refusal graciously and move on. 2) Respect it when a man is engaged in a conversation and/or seems to be with a woman. Keep an eye on him, though. If he's asking other woman besides his date, or someone "swipes" her, then go ask him. 3) If you spot a beginner, go ask him. If you're an advanced dancer, he'll dance better with you than with another beginner, and it'll be a huge boost to his confidence. And remember, you were once a beginner, and someone danced with you. And besides, he'll worship you forever like a goddess for having asked him when he was too shy and awkward to dare asking anyone else. 4) If you see an out of town visitor, ask him. Get them out on the dance floor, and point out few of your friends who are good dancers and who would be glad to dance with him. It's called "hospitality." Again, he'll adore you forever. 5) If a guy refuses, but says, "later," then take him at his word. It's not a brush off. He usually means it, so go back after a few numbers and find him.

You'll find, ladies, that men find it just as flattering to be asked as we do, and that after a while, you'll have made so many friends, and have so many regulars, you don't need to "pounce" anymore. And the bonus is, that if you get confident and poised about it, the next time some visiting dignitary or "demi-god" from Argentina is in town, you'll have the nerve to go up and ask him to dance. He'll be surprised as all get out, but he'll probably accept, and our confident forthrightness is something that Latin men actually admire in American women.

Renee

Sagitta

01-03-2005, 12:53 PM

Cool! So if I ever come to So. California I know there will be at leats one person gracious enough to dance AT with a fumbling awkward newbie. :banana:

heartgrl2k

01-03-2005, 01:13 PM

1) Unless you're asking someone to dance on your hands and knees, how are you begging? All they can say is 'no', then move on to the next person. It's not that big a deal.

2) If you've never danced with someone before, how could you possibly follow everything that's led? Each lead is unique in their pressure, footwork, improvisation, etc.

Not knowing who this is at all, but knowing people with this same attitude - it sounds like she thinks she's too good to dance with certain people, and in some way it's beneath her to ask anyone to dance. I think that's a pretty sour attitute, esp. if we're talking about social dancing. If the point of being there is to have fun, then there should be very little 'pressure' to follow everything, etc. etc.

Also, one thing I have found is that my mood/facial expression/etc. has a lot to do with whether I'm being asked to dance or not. If you're tucked away in a corner, arms crossed, with a frown on your face, not very many men are going to be brave enough to ask for a dance. If you look like you're having fun, it will be contagious and lots of leads will want to be around you.

01-03-2005, 01:13 PM

What a lovely post! Well written!
:applause: :notworth:

ReneeJoan

01-03-2005, 01:18 PM

"Cool! So if I ever come to So. California I know there will be at leats one person gracious enough to dance AT with a fumbling awkward newbie."

Yes, Sagitta, if you ever come to SoCal, I will be very happy to dance with you. After all, a "fumbling awkward newbie" can learn a great deal from an experienced woman . . . . As the French know so very well.

Renee

blue

01-03-2005, 01:31 PM

Also, one thing I have found is that my mood/facial expression/etc. has a lot to do with whether I'm being asked to dance or not. If you're tucked away in a corner, arms crossed, with a frown on your face, not very many men are going to be brave enough to ask for a dance. If you look like you're having fun, it will be contagious and lots of leads will want to be around you.

Oh yes. As a consequence, if you feel "no one here will want to dance with me" you feel bad, you don't look like you want to be invited - and nobody will. In a way, social dancing is a cruel school regarding some basic facts in basic social interacion.

Sagitta

01-03-2005, 01:34 PM

ReneeJoan

01-03-2005, 01:43 PM

Well, Sagitta, I'm in LA, and you're only 3,000 miles and a continent away. I suggest you get on travelocity and do something about that . . . .

Renee

Sagitta

01-03-2005, 01:52 PM

I'm working with few vacation days available to spend. :( :cry:

MapleLeaf Salsero

01-03-2005, 01:55 PM

Actually, there´re some girls who get a little carried away... I´ve had this beginner ask me 7 times on the same night. :shock:

ReneeJoan

01-03-2005, 01:55 PM

Dear Sagitta:

Same here. I start a new job next Monday, so it'll be a long time before I have any vacation accrued, either. And I have to somehow persuade my new employer to let me have two days off the first week of February so I can go to San Diego for a Tango Competition that I've already entered and paid for. Boy, does Dionysus ask a lot from His disciples.

Well, someday, when the time is right, we'll meet on the dance floor. Until then, we can tease and dance with words. As you MIGHT have noticed, I have some facility with the written word . . . .

Renee

ReneeJoan

01-03-2005, 01:57 PM

Dear Maple Leaf Salcero:

In the immortal words of Les Liaisons Dangereuses, as plagerized by Nancy Reagan, "Just say, 'No'."

Renee

Sagitta

01-03-2005, 02:01 PM

MapleLeaf Salsero

01-03-2005, 02:03 PM

Dear Maple Leaf Salcero:

In the immortal words of Les Liaisons Dangereuses, as plagerized by Nancy Reagan, "Just say, 'No'."

Renee

Well, I only kept saying yes because of her cleavage... :bouncy: 8)

Are you from French origin?

ReneeJoan

01-03-2005, 02:23 PM

Dear Maple Leaf Salcero:

tsk, tsk, tsk. You'll have to discuss that with Aphrodite, though she has a soft spot for men who helplessly admire women . . . .

No, I am not French in origin. Dutch and English if you go back 200 to 400 years. Pure American, otherwise. I took four years of French in High School, I love French philosophy, French music, French food, French jazz, and French farce films. I hate Frog Film Noir. And French "auteur" directors who haven't yet learned that it is the WRITER who is God in the filmmaking process, not the director.

Renee

blue

01-03-2005, 02:42 PM

Actually, there´re some girls who get a little carried away... I´ve had this beginner ask me 7 times on the same night. :shock:
This is the syndrome of finding many leaders you ask acting less nice because you are a beginner. So you pester those who are nice to you. I admit I did that - well, maybe not 7 times the same night. (Or did I?) It does not mean they are over confident in asking men to dance. It means the complete opposite.

ReneeJoan

01-03-2005, 02:46 PM

Dear Blue:

I think you are 100% right. Excellent, and incisive, analysis.

Renee

SalsaAmore

01-03-2005, 03:46 PM

I think the attitude of this women in question is out of insecurity, unfortunately. I started asking guys to dance a while back and I've gotten better dances than when I use to sit and wait for guys to ask. Before asking guys to dance, many times I was asked by guys I didn't really enjoy dancing with that much. Many of the really good dancers I like to dance with don't really ask if they don't know you because out of shyness, fear of rejection or whatever. Besides, they get plenty of dances from women they know or women who ask. I've been having a great time asking and learning from these guys as well. After my initiation, when I see these guys again another night, they are less hesitant to ask me because they know I'm friendly. Most of the time the guys will dance with you if you have a nice attitude about it or will enjoy dancing with you if you have a good personality (i.e. a little smile here and there helps and a "thank you, that was really nice" sort of comment) Honestly, of all the times I've asked guys to dance since, I've gotten rejected 3 times, ouch. It kinda hurts your ego a bit, but move on to the next guy standing next to him and show him, he's not all that and it's only about the dance, dude.

There are rules I adhere to though -- 1) Don't ask the same guy twice in a night so as to not look desperate or pursuing something other than a dance if you don't know him. 2) Be friendly & confident whoever it is you ask or dance with. 3) If after asking a guy once or a couple of times and you sense he might not enjoy dancing with you, he's arrogant or unfriendly, stop asking and let him ask you next time 4) Check out and spot good dancers who seem friendly -- not arrogant or think they are God's gift to women or the dance scene. 5) Accept dances from nice people even if they are beginners (as long as they seem like a decent person and are not sleazy) to send out good kharma and feelings and get it back in return. 6) If a guys acts too arrogant or rejects your request, don't ask him again and let him ask you next time. (Two of the 3 guys who said no to me before ask me now. They are not bad guys, just moody.) I hope this helps some of the women out there that are a little hesitant in participating in this new trend. (That's what I could think of at the moment. I might add on later if something else comes up.)

I like this new practice of women asking men. It gives women more choices and allows us to initiate contact and make new friends where we wouldn't of had the opportunity to before when we were sitting and waiting. Enjoy the new sense of freedom we are given in this arena. Sometimes when a guy looks like he is not that happy it may not be because of you. Don't take it personally. If you are not comfortable with his attitude just take it with a grain of salt and move on to the next friendly person. It's a lot more fun for women and the men, too. Happy dancing!

Peace,

SalsaAmore

blue

01-03-2005, 04:04 PM

Hi SalsaAmore, and welcome to Dance Forums!

Don't ask the same guy twice in a night so as to not look desperate or pursuing something other than a dance if you don't know him.

I think this kind of thing can be a little different in different dance communities. I ask guys twice, if I have the feeling they would like me to. Of course maybe I should let them ask the second time, but... I am thinking about the kind of situations when you look at each other and the question is kind of asked before either partner opens the mouth. This happens sometimes with people I feel I have gotten to know a little bit on the dance floor, not with people I dance with for the first time.

To me, one song with each partner seems so little! Here, we have a local standard of two dances - then you can ask for a third. Usually you do that only if you think the other person also really enjoyed it. This tradition goes way way back, and as far as I know itis implemented to every dance we do here - except for tango, that has its tandas of a couple of songs that you usually dance with the same partner. With only one song, I think you barely have time to tune in the person.

Sagitta

01-03-2005, 04:32 PM

Welcome to df SalsaAmore. I used to have the rule of one dance with each person, but now I vary it depending on the circumstances. For instance there are some who after dancing with me one dance say thanks as if they mean they have had enough. Those are rarely ask for a second dance, and will usuallys ay thanks after the first dance, even if I feel that they want to dance more, now and then. If I connect with a person I'll dance more dances with them. If I don't have that great a dance with a person and I start getting into it at the end of the song (re: your comment about tuning in blue) I'll usually dance a second song. If my connection with a person is an absolute disaster I'll skip out after the first dance, usually.

Shoe Kitty

01-03-2005, 10:22 PM

Wow, lotta responses since last time I checked in. I think this is a really interesting discussion.

A few of you have been speculating on where my friend's perspectives come from. Her ideas were so unexpected to me that I probed her a little bit, and I didn't get the impression that they were from dance insecurity but from a kind of anger or frustration. It seems she had experienced some kind of cliquishness within our dance scene and didn't feel like fighting it anymore. Having lived through high school, I certainly couldn't begrudge her those feelings. I did engage in a little friendly debate with her about it, however; and while there's no evidence of her budging at the moment, perhaps she'll feel more like asking people in later years. Like me, she has been doing this dance less than a year, and has plenty of time to evolve both her dance level and her perspectives.

Shoe Kitty

(the idea of getting groped because of being the initiator was really wild, by the way!) :shock:

SalsaAmore

01-03-2005, 11:01 PM

Anger and frustration due to cliquishness.....I understand her feelings around cliques, I really don't care for them much myself. But once you've proven yourself, that invisible barrier tends to drop. I never use to ask guys from these cliquish groups. But the barrier was lifted when I started feeling more confident about my dancing and how I interacted socially. But, it doesn't quite explain why she doesn't ask at all.

It was also mentioned that she didn't like the attitude because of a feeling that she didn't follow well. I think it's helpful to checkout and choose fellow dancers at the same skill level or little beyond. Ask guys below your skill level if it helps to boost your confidence a bit. It's okay to ask dancers that are much more advanced because some guys are really nice about it, once. But, then you do risk the chance of attitude if you really had a lousy time following the first time. So knowing your own limits is kinda good.

I hope more women begin to feel more confident about asking guys to dance either it be insecurity from dance or social stigma. But it does take a little time to muster up the courage to start asking. It's understandable. We have been conditioned to think that it wasn't okay for a lifetime, but it is the 21st century and we need to break out of that mode of the lady in waiting. That's pretty boring stuff. Besides, you'll be missing out on a lot of fun dancing with what could be new friends you wouldn't otherwise have connected with if you were just sitting and waiting.

SDsalsaguy

01-03-2005, 11:37 PM

Welcome to the Dance Forums SalsaAmore!

MapleLeaf Salsero

01-04-2005, 08:57 AM

Dear Maple Leaf Salcero:

tsk, tsk, tsk. You'll have to discuss that with Aphrodite, though she has a soft spot for men who helplessly admire women . . . .

Does Aphrodite have a soft spot for men who helplessly admire cleavages? :wink:

No, I am not French in origin. Dutch and English if you go back 200 to 400 years. Pure American, otherwise. I took four years of French in High School, I love French philosophy, French music, French food, French jazz, and French farce films. I hate Frog Film Noir. And French "auteur" directors who haven't yet learned that it is the WRITER who is God in the filmmaking process, not the director.

Renee

The writer and not the director, hmm... interesting.

MapleLeaf Salsero

01-04-2005, 09:04 AM

newbie

01-04-2005, 09:38 AM

Sagitta

01-04-2005, 10:30 AM

I think I agree with "the woman" whose opinions were relayed by ShoeKitty in post #1, sort of I feel that by inviting I'm taking charge, and I have to guarantee that it will be a pleasant dance for my partner, and if my level is below hers, it can't be pleasant; she may find it smooth, easy, relaxing, but basically it will be boring for her. I never invite a better skilled woman.
(Well, some weeks ago during a all-dance festival a nice cha-cha was played by the DJ, and being a foreigner in the local community I invited a random woman, and afterwards some people told me that she was the cha-cha teacher. Of course, had I known this, I would have invited anybody else)

I have noticed that there are some who are known as good who sit out a lot. I have chatted with people and they have told me that they wish they were asked more by others as well. That there is enjoyment to be had with simple dancing too. I ask dance teachers to dance. My tzke on this coming, secondhand, but from the mouths of people like your cha-cha teacher newbie.

01-04-2005, 10:38 AM

I have noticed that there are some who are known as good who sit out a lot. I have chatted with people and they have told me that they wish they were asked more by others as well. That there is enjoyment to be had with simple dancing too. I ask dance teachers to dance. My tzke on this coming, secondhand, but from the mouths of people like your cha-cha teacher newbie.

There was a Performer/Instructor that I recognized from the Philly Salsa Congress last summer, who was visiting DC for last Saturday's party. He hardly danced at all, but I tried giving him my props that I recognized him, and liked how he danced.

I think the really good dancers dislike rejection even more than the ones just starting out, and would rather sit the night out than have to put up with it.

Unfortunate, honestly.

SalsaAmore

01-04-2005, 11:59 AM

Hi Blue, Sagitta, SD & Squirrel,

Thanks! It's nice to be on board.

Blue & Sagitta -- On the rule of not asking guys you don't know twice, yes, it really is about the particular situation you're in. With any of the general rules I suggested, it's more for those who haven't asked before and need a little safety guideline to avoid feeling rejected or bad.

I have asked a guy twice in one night that I've never danced with before. He is a great dancer and really sweeeet. I felt he enjoyed the dance and that he is rather shy. So I asked him again and he was delighted. You both seem like you already know what it's about. So, I think, in a sense, you make up your own rules as you go along.

dancin_feet

01-04-2005, 05:16 PM

I think I agree with "the woman" whose opinions were relayed by ShoeKitty in post #1, sort of I feel that by inviting I'm taking charge, and I have to guarantee that it will be a pleasant dance for my partner, and if my level is below hers, it can't be pleasant; she may find it smooth, easy, relaxing, but basically it will be boring for her. I never invite a better skilled woman.
(Well, some weeks ago during a all-dance festival a nice cha-cha was played by the DJ, and being a foreigner in the local community I invited a random woman, and afterwards some people told me that she was the cha-cha teacher. Of course, had I known this, I would have invited anybody else)

There is only one way to get better and that is to practice with people who are more skilled. I can't help but think you are shooting yourself in the foot and sabotaging your dancing by not inviting more experienced dancers to dance with you. Sure it is scary and you may feel an obligation to give a perfect, mistake free performance, but in reality we all started somewhere. Most people are very accepting of new dancers, and if you are open to learn from them, you will find dancing a lot more fun, even if you stuff up. What does it matter? If you find someone who is less accomodating, don't ask them again.

squirrel

01-05-2005, 02:15 AM

Welcome, SalsaAmore!

Yes, I suppose great dancers are the same as the rest of us, at least most of them are... and for them it is as hard as for us to invite unknown people... they have their comfort areas as well!

rails

01-05-2005, 04:19 AM

clave

01-05-2005, 01:30 PM

I like this new practice of women asking men.
What planet did you just arrive from SalsaAmore? This is San Francisco. Women don't ask men to dance at salsa venues. When I go out for lindy hop and balboa I usually get asked to dance a few times a night, but salsa? Only women I already know.
Hmm, interesting observation. I danced salsa in San Francisco only once during a short visit. It was a Saturday night at Cafe Cocomo, and my impression matches rails' very closely: few good follows, they come in cliques, most of them refused me, and of the few that didn't most didn't act very friendly. Big city attitude? Could be, but it was much worse than LA which has every right to be the capital of attitude. Perhaps I should have chosen a different venue?

danceguy

01-05-2005, 04:13 PM

Now now rails, I've had a few women ask me to dance at Salsa venues in SF...and all 2 or 3 of them were complete strangers! As I recall one was very drunk and didn't really know how to dance, but hey, she STILL ASKED! :lol:

SalsaAmore - I hope there's a few more ladies from whatever planet you are from...definitely a rarity! :P

clave - In my experience I've found Cocomo's to be the most crowded, unfriendly venue in SF...and you said it was WORSE than LA? Hmm... :?

clave

01-05-2005, 05:29 PM

In my experience I've found Cocomo's to be the most crowded, unfriendly venue in SF...and you said it was WORSE than LA? Hmm... :?
Of course you need to know where to go in LA--this is true for every scene--but in my experience the places that cater to diehard dancers attract enough advanced friendly dancers for the cliques to not matter. I'm talking about Steven's, Conga Room, Tapas. From a dancer's point of view the crowd at Cocomo's reminded me of the Mayan, despite the facts that they played only salsa and that the band was superb. Weird.

danceguy

01-05-2005, 05:52 PM

I've never been dancing in LA so I cannot relate...I've only heard from others what some of clubs are like there. No offense meant to anyone from LA! :)

Regarding SF, I think part of the attitude is due to the shortage of women. There are so many extra men that we are fighting to get a dance...so the ladies really have it good. If they let this go to their heads...well then it is what it is. :o

Reminds me of when I tried online dating several years ago (and never will again!). I recall reading that the ratio of men to women on most sites was 8 to 1 at that time (2000). So as a result of the gender imbalance and the natural proclinity of men to make the first move, the women were constantly bombarded by requests for dates. To get any of the women to even acknowledge your presence took either an extreme amount of luck or having been blessed with good looks and a high social standing (I had neither, (un)fortunately). :? :roll:

On one hand I totally understand the women needing to exercise caution and use discernment to weed out the creeps and weirdos...but there was simply NO excuse for some of the attitudes that I encountered!

But with the odds greatly in their favor...they could sit back and be extremely picky...then again who ever said life was fair? :wink:

SalsaAmore

01-05-2005, 06:43 PM

I'm from the planet Venus or haven't you heard. :) Unfortunately, Rails & Clave, it's mostly the hottest dancers or the hottest guys who gets asked to dance by women they don't know. It helps when the guy has a nice, friendly and approachable attitude, too. So smile, be friendly and see what happens. This is what women had to do in the past. If you smiled and had a nice, friendly approachable attitude then the guy wouldn't be as hesitant in asking. Now, we get to switch roles and feel how the other gender felt for centuries. :wink:

Scorpion guy, you seem really nice and sweet from your posts. It's not a surprise that you get women you don't know to ask you to dance. You must exude a certain positive attitude in person that makes it easier for women to ask you. We might of even danced together or seen eachother before if you are a regular in the S.F. Salsa club scene.

danceguy

01-05-2005, 07:37 PM

SalsaAmore -

Thank you *blush*...I actually get asked to dance fairly often in my own area...I remember one night a girl who came to our club for the first time walked all the way across the room to ask me to dance. It was funny since I was in a really weird mood and not dancing, so she comes over, sits down and says "Why are you sitting down and not dancing? Get up and dance with me!" Made my night, let me tell you! :D

I doubt that we've danced but we may have been at the same venues...I don't go to SF all that often, and the first few times I just sat down and hid most of the night (I'm still a beginner). I think it was my third visit to the Roccapulco before I finally asked a lady to dance...and she was a beauty as I recall. :wink:

Do you ever go to the Allegro Ballroom? I went there for the first time a few weeks ago and had a blast. I asked quite a few women to dance and all of them said yes...not one rejection the entire night! That doesn't happen very often, especially being a new face at a large venue! :P

SalsaAmore

01-05-2005, 08:13 PM

Hi Scorpionguy,

Yes, Allegro is my Sunday night spot. I love it there. It's my favorite place to go in the S.F. Bay Area. There's something about that place that just appeals to a lot of dancers. And, yes, I find people there pretty friendly. It's a lot about just the dancing there and it's not as much of a meat market as some of the clubs can be sometimes.

Wow, no rejections all night, that's awesome. (I'm getting this hot image of you now. :wink: Just kidding. I like to flirt. It's all innocent.) I don't like hearing from my guys friends when women have attitudes especially the ones who think they are just too good, if you know what I mean. But, from the sound of it, that doesn't happen to you much. :)

danceguy

01-05-2005, 09:09 PM

It is a nice venue...my Salsa friends had been telling me about it for months...saying it would be different than the rest of the clubs. And they were right...very different crowd and I liked the energy, non-competitve and very friendly. :)

I think its likely due to the lack of alcohol, every one there is there to dance...and that's the way it should be!

Well...I think I only danced about 6 times...since the first part of the evening I just watched...adjusting to the size of the crowd since I normally go to really small venues. But once I got over being intimidated I just went for it...and I had a lot of fun. :P

Hmm...I wonder if you were the one lady that I kept admiring...and every time I'd get the nerve to ask her, another guy would beat me to it! Finally I just nearly ran her down and she accepted and then led me to the center of the dance floor...it was kind of sweet actually (or maybe she just wanted to hide in the crowd where no would see us, ha!).

Ah, I'm just an average guy...and you can ask the other DF members, I'm not much of a flirt...not at all. :oops: :lol: :raisebro:

If I make it down there again save me a dance...but I will be honest in stating I'm still very much a beginner. And I do apologize when I step on toes. :wink:

youngsta

01-05-2005, 10:06 PM

Interesting that LA has such a bad rep because I've never had issues out there. Now the Bay area on the other hand, the very first time I visted and danced there I was getting turned down left and right (Agenda)! Now when I went more recently to DLL and Rocca I didn't have any issues.

rails

01-05-2005, 11:10 PM

Hmm, interesting observation. I danced salsa in San Francisco only once during a short visit. It was a Saturday night at Cafe Cocomo, and my impression matches rails' very closely: few good follows, they come in cliques, most of them refused me, and of the few that didn't most didn't act very friendly. Big city attitude? Could be, but it was much worse than LA which has every right to be the capital of attitude. Perhaps I should have chosen a different venue?

Well Saturday night is not a dancer's night at any of the regular venues. In my experience what you get is a lot of women who have never done salsa (or probably any other partner dance). And, yeah, a lot of them come with their "I've got my defenses up because I think I'm in a meat market" attitude. I was at Cocomo on a Saturday a couple of months ago. I never got turned down, but I didn't ask any grumpy-looking girls. I also didn't have any good dances except with the women I came with. None of the strangers I danced with had much of any concept of connection. I'm not good or anything, but I have a little concept of it.

Now the Bay area on the other hand, the very first time I visted and danced there I was getting turned down left and right (Agenda)!

Agenda? Ha, now that's ironic.

Now now rails, I've had a few women ask me to dance at Salsa venues in SF...and all 2 or 3 of them were complete strangers! As I recall one was very drunk and didn't really know how to dance, but hey, she STILL ASKED!

Okay, I admit it. I have been asked by complete strangers before, but we're talking once every 10 nights of dancing or something like that. I don't ask women I know very much, but that's probably because I know they'll ask me eventually, especially if they're looking to cleanse the palate after a dance with a sleaze or a bull-in-a-china-shop type dancer.

Yes, Allegro is my Sunday night spot. I love it there. It's my favorite place to go in the S.F. Bay Area. There's something about that place that just appeals to a lot of dancers.

Allegro on Sunday is definitely a dancer's night. Unfortunately, the last couple of times I went there was a pretty bad lead:follow ratio and I don't like the music there. I'm a traditionalist. All that pop music doesn't inspire me.

Unfortunately, Rails & Clave, it's mostly the hottest dancers or the hottest guys who gets asked to dance by women they don't know.

Uh, yeah SalsaAmore, that's the problem. Clave, SG & I aren't hot enough. I just wish I were as hawt as the guy in my avatar.

As for the whole turn-down thing. I rarely get turned down, but I think I filter more than most guys. I don't ask grumpy-looking women. I also don't ask those who are sitting way back from the dance floor. In the past I would be coming back from the bar or bathroom or whatever and would pass an interesting-looking woman whom I'd ask to dance. I noticed my turn-down rate was pretty high with these people so I stopped doing it. There were plenty of interesting-looking follows closer to the dance floor and they never said no.

danceguy

01-06-2005, 12:11 AM

Allegro on Sunday is definitely a dancer's night. Unfortunately, the last couple of times I went there was a pretty bad lead:follow ratio and I don't like the music there. I'm a traditionalist. All that pop music doesn't inspire me.

I noticed the lead to follow ratio wasn't in our favor at Allegros...I got there early to watch the lesson and noticed how many guys had to wait for an available partner and I decided I didn't want to be another one! Its funny who you talk to, all the men notice the lack of women, but when I ask my female friends who go there they always say "there's a shortage of women? I guess I never notice because I'm always dancing!" :roll:

I thought the music was ok...only one cha cha the entire night though, and I think 2 or 3 Bachatas which was nice. The Merengue was just right, not too much, not too little. I didn't hear any of my favorite tunes, and I usually turn my brain off when Reggaeton comes on...but that's just me. :x

You've learned as I have about asking the right women! All of the ones I asked were standing near the dance floor, with a "I really wanna dance!" look on their faces. All I had to was approach them with a smile and they were more than happy to dance with me. I recall at one point there were two ladies standing near me...and I had a brain freeze...both were cute and looked like they would be fun to dance with...which to ask? I asked one and then the other disappeared...oh well...next time! :wink:

clave

01-06-2005, 12:24 AM

Unfortunately, Rails & Clave, it's mostly the hottest dancers or the hottest guys who gets asked to dance by women they don't know.
Oh, now I get it. I wasn't hot enough for San Fran! It's only these butt-ugly LA girls that have to do the asking out of desperation--how would they ever get married with all that tanning and cosmetic surgery!? :wink:

Seriously, though, think about these observations of attitudes in your scene. I often think about it in my scene here in SoCal. I get asked all the time here, but that's 'cause I know half the people who show up at a club, I'm pretty good, I never refuse a dance, am nice to everyone, no ex-es in the scene, and so forth. But if I had an out-of-scene salsero friend visit, there are very few places where I would take them knowing they'd be likely to have a good time in spite of not knowing anyone. These days I try to dance every place I visit on business or as a tourist, and often wish there were guides indicating where not to go unless you're a local.

It helps when the guy has a nice, friendly and approachable attitude, too. So smile, be friendly and see what happens. This is what women had to do in the past. If you smiled and had a nice, friendly approachable attitude then the guy wouldn't be as hesitant in asking. Now, we get to switch roles and feel how the other gender felt for centuries. :wink:
Gosh, you really do live in a beautiful fantasy world, I envy you. Quite a few girls I was attracted to over the years would in turn be attracted to complete non-nice, non-smiling, manipulative jerks. That niceness is a turn-on is news to me, frankly. If rules of attraction were that simple pushover geeks would be chick magnets. Sadly...

As for the whole turn-down thing. I rarely get turned down, but I think I filter more than most guys. I don't ask grumpy-looking women. I also don't ask those who are sitting way back from the dance floor. In the past I would be coming back from the bar or bathroom or whatever and would pass an interesting-looking woman who I'd ask to dance. I noticed my turn-down rate was pretty high with these people so I stopped doing it. There were plenty of interesting-looking follows closer to the dance floor and they never said no.
Oh, when I'm visiting a different scene I filter a whole lot more than that: I only ask ladies I've seen dance with some degree of competence. I don't avoid beginners--I never refuse when asked--but seeking them out just to keep my feet busy has become too painful. Yep, it's the Curse of the Salsero :cry: http://www.salsamafia.com/Salsa_Curse.html

SalsaAmore

01-06-2005, 01:50 AM

Clave, I have to question the kind of girls you are attracted to, the ones that are into manipulative jerks. In my so called "fantasy" world (as you say), people I know are beautiful inside and out and appreciate other people who treat them well. Wow, what a concept, huh, choosing people who treat you well. But, all sarcasm aside, I know that can be challenging for some people.

Also I said that -- the hottest guys OR the hottest dancers get asked and it helps to have the right attitude to be asked by women you don't know. Right attitude is to smile, be friendly, look approachable and not grumpy (like Rails said about some women). It will help the women to feel more at ease to ask if you have all the above mentioned qualities.

danceguy

01-06-2005, 02:05 AM

SalsaAmore -

Ok, definitely save me a dance now! :wink:

SalsaAmore

01-06-2005, 02:11 AM

Okay SG, any time!

Ki Aiki

01-06-2005, 03:51 AM

Hi from Romania! It is wonderfull to find so many people willing to share their experiences.
Let me tell you about mine. I don't have any problems asking guys to dance with me. What can happen? A guy can give you 2 answers: yes or no. It's normal. And taking into account my smile (smth. like my avatar), I usually get a yes with a smile on top. :D
I only had problems asking 2 guys:
-Jorge, a friend from Puerto Rico. He moves... beyond words. Nothing out of this world (no dips, no jumps, etc.) but... it is just a continuous flow and smth. about what I can read on his face. I asked him ... and just enjoyed!
-Abby, the teacher in our December workshop. I did't ask him... and I should have. Well, next time.
It can't hurt. It's only my wish to dance.

squirrel

01-06-2005, 04:26 AM

Welcome, Ki Aiki... :)!

Sagitta

01-06-2005, 06:54 AM

Welcome, Ki Aiki... :)!
Ditto. :)

Ki Aiki

01-06-2005, 09:14 AM

You guys and gals make us newcomers feel very at ease here. :kissme:

Sagitta

01-06-2005, 09:37 AM

You guys and gals make us newcomers feel very at ease here. :kissme: :oops: I got a kisses. :oops: :) Gracie.

Ki Aiki

01-07-2005, 01:14 AM

De nada. :)

RugKutta

01-11-2005, 12:02 PM

Judging from the statements that SK said that this woman made, I feel like this woman is very arrogant. She seems to act as if she is above asking someone to dance becaue her level of dance skill is so high. However, I believe most arrogant people are, albeit deep, deep down, are actually insecure, and her second statement proves me right. If she's as skilled as she says she is, there would be no reason for her to feel any pressure to be able to follow whatever moves her partner might throw at her. Also, I feel this woman is only in it for the attention and not for the love of the dance. If she really wanted to dance, as many have said earlier, she would not interpret asking someone to dance as "begging", and it would not matter to her who did the asking. Furthermore, the fact that she sees dacing w/ someone as a risk lets me further know that she is insecure under that snobbish facade.

On a lighter note, as a guy I've had to overcome shyness/insecurity (yes, I'm insecure too....that's why I can spot another insecure person a mile away) in asking women to dance, so It really encourages me when I get asked to dance by a woman. It doesn't matter if she's a beginner or expert or anywhere in between, it just brightens up my day. So ladies, think about that the next time you're contemplating on wether or not to ask a guy to dance.

Luv, Peace, and SALSA

Phil Owl

01-11-2005, 12:18 PM

Judging from the statements that SK said that this woman made, I feel like this woman is very arrogant. She seems to act as if she is above asking someone to dance becaue her level of dance skill is so high. However, I believe most arrogant people are, albeit deep, deep down, are actually insecure, and her second statement proves me right. If she's as skilled as she says she is, there would be no reason for her to feel any pressure to be able to follow whatever moves her partner might throw at her. Also, I feel this woman is only in it for the attention and not for the love of the dance. If she really wanted to dance, as many have said earlier, she would not interpret asking someone to dance as "begging", and it would not matter to her who did the asking. Furthermore, the fact that she sees dacing w/ someone as a risk lets me further know that she is insecure under that snobbish facade.

On a lighter note, as a guy I've had to overcome shyness/insecurity (yes, I'm insecure too....that's why I can spot another insecure person a mile away) in asking omen to dance, so It really encourages me when I get asked to dance by a woman. It doesn't matter if she's a beginner or expert or anywhere in between, it just brightens up my day. So ladies, think about that the next time you're contemplating on wether or not to ask a guy to dance.

Luv, Peace, and SALSA

RugKutta, you are a man after this Owl's heart!! It was learning to dance that forced me to confront a lot of my own insecurities anda great way to conquer them. I've been pretty fortunate to have largely good to excellent experiences, and of course, the inevitable egocentric, arrogant woman that thinks they're soooo above it all you described here.

Dancing built my confidence in such a way I don't give a hoot what anyone thinks of me not being "competition level" and what not!

Shoe Kitty

01-13-2005, 10:26 PM

I'd like to point out that I didn't start this post so we could trash my friend and try to determine whether she is arrogant or not or even focus on my friend at all, but rather to talk about the issue of women asking men to dance itself.

For the record, as I have stated before, both of us are new dancers, and are just starting to get into this scene. I don't feel my friend thinks she has anything up on anyone, as we are both just learning, so please, let's not personalize this, let's just talk about the issues.

Spitfire

01-14-2005, 12:36 AM

This is from this months newsletter from the local WCS dance club which sums it up pretty well:

Last month at our club's board meeting there was a complaint relayed to us from several women who said they were not being asked to dance during the open dancing. The policy at our club is that "it's always ladies choice".

If you are a beginner of either sex you need to be assertive in asking people to dance. Ask the people you met during the lessons at the club. If you continue to do this you will start to develop a regular group of dancers who know you and expect to dance with you.

Beginning men dancers can be just as shy as anyone else in asking someone to dance. If your strategy is to wait for them to ask you that may not happen. However it would be rare for anyone to turn someone down at the club so don't be shy about asking them. The more you participate in the club lessons and stay for the open dancing the more
recognized you will be and the more you will be asked. All of us can look for the new person sitting at a table and ask them for a dance. That could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship.

MacMoto

01-14-2005, 03:47 AM

I'd like to point out that I didn't start this post so we could trash my friend and try to determine whether she is arrogant or not or even focus on my friend at all, but rather to talk about the issue of women asking men to dance itself.
Ah! I didn't realise this -- when I read the original post, I thought you wanted to discuss your friend's reasoning for not wanting to ask men to dance specifically. This is what I think about women asking men to dance in general (repeating what I wrote in other threads on the same subject before):

I'm a follower, and most of the time I do most of the asking. In a typical night, I'd say 7 out of 10 dances I get by asking men to dance. The proportion is even higher at some venues. The only time I wait for men to ask me is when I'm in an unfamiliar environment* (dancing out of town, congresses, etc.). Why?

1. My definition of a good night is non-stop dancing from start to finish. If you wait for men to ask you, you are unlikely to get it.

2. I want to make sure I get a dance (or two!) with ALL my favourite leaders. They tend to be popular, and if I just wait, there's always a chance that they may not get around to asking me, so I grab them the moment they become available.

3. I'm getting a bit fussy about having the dance match the music: for example, I don't like dancing LA style salsa to a very Cuban-sounding song, or dancing casino to a mambo jazz. So when the music starts, I go and grab a guy who I think can give me the sort of dance I want for the particular song.

In other words, I ask men to dance so that I can get the maximum enjoyment out of a night of dancing.

* When you are new, you are unfamiliar with the local scene, and I understand why beginner followers hesistate to ask men to dance. All I can say is, once you start doing it, it will get easier because you realise then that it's not a big deal.

Some related threads (I'm sure there are more)...
Women asking men to dance. (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1102)
asking a lead to dance (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=5551)

And also...
How do I get guys to dance with me? (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=4799)

Ki Aiki

01-14-2005, 07:19 AM

newbie

01-14-2005, 07:38 AM

Read somewhere:
"...intriguingly, even sex hormones are largely shared by the two, only the balance is different. So men have a reasonable amount of estrogen, and would probably grow severely ill if not.
Women have testosteron and need it too. To further complicate things, some chemicals act as a hormone when released in the adrenal glands, but as neurotransmitters when released in the brain..."

Got it? so women can invite too, only the balance is different.

01-14-2005, 08:41 AM

Somebody told me that it is in the guys' nature to initiate. That initiative is given by the testosteron, among other efects of this masculin hormon, so it is smth. biological. And once you deprive them of this, they loose interest. That it is a scientifically proven fact. Any thoughts on that? :?

To which I'll respond... just because a woman accepts my offer to dance, doesn't mean she's attracted to me, and just because I ask a woman to dance doesn't mean I'm attracted to her.

I have known a few women over the years that need to stop equating this as such.

Hey, it's just a dance, you know? :wink:

DancePoet

01-14-2005, 01:10 PM

My silliness about pink hair was going to continue here, but I had enough sense, for the moment :lol:, to hit the backspace key before typing more. :roll: :lol:

blue

01-14-2005, 11:36 PM

DancePoet

01-15-2005, 08:13 AM

2 interesting dynamics:

1) Last night I met someone who said she would never ask a man to dance because she didn't want to beg. She said that she'd been around for long enough for everyone to know who she was and what her dance skills were, and that if they wanted to dance with her, they would ask.
Asking isn't begging, and it seems to me she is giving up her ability to choose a partner sometimes.

2) She also mentioned that she felt that if she asked the guy to dance, then she would feel the pressure of being expected to be able to follow everything he led; while if a guy asked her, then it was his risk - whatever she could do, that's what he got.
This seems odd. Beginner leads won't do much, and if she's "been around" then she should know who the beginners are and be able to handle their leads. And the intermediate and advanced leads will likely know her and what she can handle, and if they don't, then they will likley be respectful enough to determine her skill level during the dance.

Maybe there is something else that is bothering her?

I've only been dancing in this scene a few months and have totally different ideas about both these things.

On the former, I feel like, if I want to be on the dance floor and no one has asked me to dance, then I have to go out there and get someone. I do remember that when I was growing up, girls didn't ask guys out on dates, but I kind of deleted that concept from my mind in recent years at least when it comes to just being out social dancing.
I'd say you keep asking! :)

On the latter, my observation has been that most leads guage my dancing level pretty quickly and based on their own skill level, respond in their own way. (I dance at I guess advanced beginner or intermediate level.) The least skilled leads only lead basics, intermediate leads lead stuff at about my level, and the most competent leads lead just slightly above my level, but not beyond, both inspiring and challenging me.
You have the right idea!

precious12

08-03-2008, 06:59 PM

Hi, guys here is an interesting thing i was wondering about. I have been dancing for 2 years and since i started was told to let the men come to you.... just sit down and look eager... well that has worked pretty well for me up to a few months ago. I usually in group class when they say partner up just kinda walk out toward people and a guy usually scopes me up... but recently i end up getting last or left out... so the main instructor at my studio.. who is a women... said get out there and grab who you want... even during the practice parties and such... i was nervous about doing that at first, but it got worse and i felt like i was getting left out... whe have some new women at our studio and they are how to say this "aggressive".... they are older then me in there late 40s and i am 19 so maybe this is why.... but they run and i mean run to grab the men they want and sometimes they dance two or three dances with them! So recently i did what my professional instructor said i ran to get the man i wanted... and yes, i got some stares and not so friendly looks for getting to the man i wanted to dance with first. Well, i did this several times and then quite and i was right back where i started just sitting.... and recently i was at a showcase and same thing.... i sat there facing the dance floor, eager to dance, smiling and trying to get asked to dance, i did dance some, but for the amount of men there... i did not get asked alot, so there was a man i wanted to dance with and he knows me, so i took my oppurtunity when the song was finishing and ran up to him, before the other women could be me gentle touched his arm to get his attention and smiled and said want to dance? He smiled and said my pleasure, but i have wondered, is it okay for me to do this, do men like it when i ask them, or do they think i am being to forward and just accept because i have put them on the spot, or should i just sit and wait, or take my chance and ask men that are available to dance? I mean i like sitting out some dances, gives me time to get water... and take a break, but when i sit down for 5 dances or more, i am ready to get up and dance and have fun! Just wanted peoples opions on this from the guys and girls. :cool:

fascination

08-03-2008, 07:03 PM

we have alot of threads on this...and the bottom line is, regardless of the reason...which isn't overly useful to ponder IMO...if you aren't getting asked and you want to dance, just ask...I will perpetually warm the bench if I don't ask...mostly for very complimentary reasons, but I'm still sitting there...shrug...ya gotta ask

suburbaknght

08-04-2008, 12:14 AM

fascination

08-04-2008, 06:28 AM

lol...okay...it was just a manner of speech there...not literally sitting...although...I am also not going to remain stands for hours...it is enough IMO to be seated facing the dance floor and watching with interest...

davedove

08-04-2008, 10:47 AM

I had an interesting experience at our regular dance last Saturday. Normally, the women outnumber the men by a fair amount, but this time the men actually outnumbered the women. I found I wasn't dancing that much, because I wasn't getting asked as frequently. It turns our that because there are normally a lot of women, they do a lot of the asking and I had become used to that. Most nights, I ask and get asked about the same amount, but this time I had to get back into asking more. I just thought that was an interesting occurrence.

I do find that there are some women who don't appear comfortable with asking, usually those who are new to dancing and unsure of themselves. A younger woman one night was sitting there looking very eager to dance, but she wasn't asking anyone, so she didn't dance. The men were all getting asked by other women. I did ask her a couple of times, but usually the other women swoop in pretty quickly.:D

Standarddancer

08-04-2008, 10:56 AM

I think perfectly fine...I've seen so many women asking men to dance, I don't see anything improper...

danceronice

08-04-2008, 04:54 PM

I'd like to amend this: while both men and women need to be willing to ask their partners to dance, if you insist on waiting to be asked, don't do do it by sitting by the side of the room. There are a number of posts on the subject of how to be asked, but do not sit down. Sitting down communicates that you don't want to dance.

LoL--we sit on the "magic bench!" There's a spot where my friends and I like to sit at socials (partially because its' right under a ceiling fan, true) and really, it's the hot corner--we usually aren't sitting for long! Now, if I really don't want to be asked by random people, I'll go up to the stage and sit behind the DJ stand. At that point, if someone wants to go LOOKING for me and ask, okay, but it usually means I'm tired and unless they're someone I know who specifically is looking for me, I'm fine sitting out.

cornutt

08-04-2008, 07:27 PM

I had an interesting experience at our regular dance last Saturday. Normally, the women outnumber the men by a fair amount, but this time the men actually outnumbered the women. I found I wasn't dancing that much, because I wasn't getting asked as frequently. It turns our that because there are normally a lot of women, they do a lot of the asking and I had become used to that. Most nights, I ask and get asked about the same amount, but this time I had to get back into asking more. I just thought that was an interesting occurrence.

Interesting. I've written here before that I dance at a studio where there are usually more men than women. Occasionally I get asked by an instructor; other than that, almost never.

emeralddancer

08-04-2008, 08:32 PM

Honestly, yes it is fine for a woman to ask. But I really don't like to ask. I guess I am a wee bit old fashioned by this ... but I find there is a certain old time charm when a man asks a lady. Which I feel is missing these days. I think at times women can be to forward (I know I am prime example of forward and blunt and such, ergo why trying on my ladylike skills, LOL)

Also too ... I have been burned in the past by asking men, and being rejected. Just kinda stinks you know? Only time I feel comfortable is if it is people I know fairly well.

fascination

08-04-2008, 08:34 PM

I will ask any gentleman once...but if he doesn't return the favor I take it as a signal not to ask again for reasons that don't offend...it's all good

emeralddancer

08-04-2008, 08:38 PM

Good point Fascination! Something to try at least.

quixotedlm

08-04-2008, 11:09 PM

.....I find there is a certain old time charm when a man asks a lady. Which I feel is missing these days.

The reference to 'old time charm' ... :) Not something I'd expect to receive or offer every day in a world of dance addiction. Most of us are dancing because we think of it as a craft the practice of which is alluring. The aspect of old time charm, chivalry, wooing a partner through dance etc. might be nice for an occasional ball or an event of sorts, but to expect that such affected courtesy will always be available from those who go dancing 8 times a week is unrealistic. It's the tradeoff betwen pragmatism and dream. I think my gf looks pretty in a flirty skirt, and there is a charm in wearing girly dresses. But what's practical is a pair of jeans. Of course she agrees with me, and we dress up sometimes. But not every day.

Also too ... I have been burned in the past by asking men, and being rejected. Just kinda stinks you know? ....

Yeah, most men who dance know this all too well :) For that matter, almost every single man who has had to ask out a girl knows this only too well. In this aspect, women often live in a world of excessive comfort and security :tongue: - so it's ok to sometimes share the risk.

Terpsichorean Clod

08-05-2008, 02:55 AM

LoL--we sit on the "magic bench!" There's a spot where my friends and I like to sit at socials (partially because its' right under a ceiling fan, true) and really, it's the hot corner--we usually aren't sitting for long! Now, if I really don't want to be asked by random people, I'll go up to the stage and sit behind the DJ stand. At that point, if someone wants to go LOOKING for me and ask, okay, but it usually means I'm tired and unless they're someone I know who specifically is looking for me, I'm fine sitting out.
DOI...at a social...? :shock: :still trying to reconcile that with this: ;)
*mutters, wandering in*Competition is fun. Social dancing is forced labor...*wanders off before she gets into trouble*

Joe

08-05-2008, 06:45 AM

Busted!

Taniquel

08-05-2008, 07:56 AM

Yeah, most men who dance know this all too well :) For that matter, almost every single man who has had to ask out a girl knows this only too well. In this aspect, women often live in a world of excessive comfort and security :tongue: - so it's ok to sometimes share the risk.

I always feel so bad when saying no to someone who's asking me to dance, even when I am genuinely too tired to dance (or for any other reason that has nothing to do with the person asking). I know it takes some people a great deal of courage to ask and I try to be as nice as possible (by accepting even though I am not sure I want to dance with that person or by making sure I thank them for the invitation even though I decline it).

But, I have to say, some men (and probably women too) don't seem to take the time to look at the person and see if she (or he) would be ready/willing to dance. I've even been asked by someone who wasn't even looking at me while asking!

fascination

08-05-2008, 08:12 AM

I will never ever say no...if I am in the building but on my way out with my street shoes on I will either dance barefooted, quickly change my shoes or suffer in street shoes...if anyone takes the time and care to ask me to dance the answer will be yes...simple as that

NURDRMS

08-05-2008, 10:02 AM

Yep, when I was in junior high, my mom 'made' me take dance lessons for six weeks. The instructor said, "if a boy gets up enough courage to ask a girl to dance, the only correct answer is, "yes."

quixotedlm

08-05-2008, 11:05 AM

Despite the comment I made above, I think it is really important to say no. It is important, and reasonable, that both men and women learn to handle tiny rejections. But more than that, it is important that we are willing to offer our fellow human beings a certain respect that can only be offered through genuine/honest interactions. Frankly, I've never been big on pity dances - esp. the ones that I might get unknown to me.

fascination

08-05-2008, 11:25 AM

NURDRMS

08-05-2008, 11:38 AM

dancinrina

08-05-2008, 11:52 AM

I don't think our predecessors went through all this trouble of burning bras (heh) and women's lib in order for girls now-a-days to get skitish about asking guys to dance. I think that if there's a guy you want to dance with - you go on ahead and ask him to dance. I mean - even when my grandparents were my age and would go to dance socials, there were always "white dances" (at least that's what my grandma calls them) where women were the ones who HAD to ask the men to dance.

NURDRMS

08-05-2008, 12:34 PM

quixotedlm

08-05-2008, 12:49 PM

I never said anything about it being out of pity...it is a matter of respect and compassion ...if I am at a dance and I am not injured and someone asks me to dance, they can have my best efforts for two minutes...i don't see that as pity...I see that as my own humility and decency...and as being human....

then you are not the norm. more often than not, people say yes because they find it too awkward to say no (this is truer for men than it is for women).

Terpsichorean Clod

08-05-2008, 12:52 PM

Actually, I would say men find it easier to disappear than to say "no". ;)

fascination

08-05-2008, 01:30 PM

then you are not the norm. more often than not, people say yes because they find it too awkward to say no (this is truer for men than it is for women).
I don't have trouble saying no... at all...but I do respect anyone who wants to dance and takes the time to ask me...maybe some women say yes when they would rather not but I outgrew that...

fascination

08-05-2008, 01:31 PM

Actually, I would say men find it easier to disappear than to say "no". ;)
no truer words were ever spoken...;)

danceronice

08-05-2008, 01:42 PM

DOI...at a social...? :shock: :still trying to reconcile that with this: ;)

Hee--if I didn't go to my studio's events, I wouldn't have ANY social life at all! (I am just not a party person in general, except where my stuidio peeps are concerned. And now we'll find out if either of my pros are reading this thread because they'll have to say something about my intentionally ironic use of the word "peeps".) I go to the studio near where I live, I sometimes go to our other studio, I don't do the nightclub parties we're associated with and I don't go anywhere else. (Largely because my one experience at the nightclub was pure hell. Loud, dancing was awful, and I as I can't stand WCS, salsa, or merengue, about 70% of the dances were right out.)

bordertangoman

08-05-2008, 03:14 PM

Actually, I would say men find it easier to disappear than to say "no". ;)

but my cloak of invisibilty is at the dry cleaners.

Standarddancer

08-05-2008, 07:12 PM

Exellent point Fasc!!! Definitely no need to ask twice if he doesn't return the favor regardless whatever his reason might be!

fascination

08-05-2008, 07:33 PM

exactly...in my case i don't go often and I am generally ...well...better...so alot of the guys assume that I don't want to dance with them and they don't know me...and they apologize through the whole thing...if they don't ask again, I can appreciate that it just wasn't fun for them...and I wouldn't put them in that position....but I always thank and make sure the fellow knows that I wasn't expecting him to be victor fung

emeralddancer

08-05-2008, 07:49 PM

My "old world charm" comment was totally in referance to just social dance parties, not lessons or practices and such. Most socials are on weekends eh? (at least here) Why not bring back some of the etiquette?

Saying no IS fine. It is not that I can not handle the rejection so to speak .... what I can not handle is the very obvious let down. If I were asked to dance and said no because I was sitting this one out to catch a breath, let's say. I then would not dance with the next gentleman asking me UNTIL that song were ended.

My quip was more of ... etiquette ... where has that gone?

So why is it OK for some men (or women) to do this. Or why is it ok for a man (or woman) to say that you may not be good enough. Or whatever. (and yes this has happened to me ... by a pro no less, needless to say I do not visit that studio at all. I was a week into group lessons and he stated I would not be able to keep up with him, uh duh ... so slow your bum arse down and do the dang basic, sheesh, hard huh? anyway lose no sleep over him. LOL)

I know I am not the best dancer, or follow as well as I should, or know alot of the basic steps much less more difficult ones, but dang I have to start somewhere right?

There should be nothing wrong when seeing new people, "green" people to invite them to dance and make it a pleasurable experience. You never know when they may be the next best student a studio may have. But more and more I see women rejected (whether intentionally or un - intentionally) that want to dance and take classes and many leave not to return again. Often times too these newbies, feel very uncomfortable to ask a man. So many sit out based on that alone!

I find 99% of the seasoned dancers (whether social, am or pro) to be genuine and kind ... this rant was the few well .... that aren't.

*climbing down off box ...*

emeralddancer

08-05-2008, 07:53 PM

Fascination - I love your comments ....:)

My speaking is not quite so eloquent .... mine is so brusque. :(

fascination

08-05-2008, 07:55 PM

and that is a head scratcher for me...it must be some sort of perfectionistic ego trip that drives that sort of shunning...b/c for me...the memory of dancing with kind and merciful dancers at socials when I was new was a treasure...the feeling was a brief glimpse into what was in store for me...their kindness allowed me to maintain the courage to continue...and the ones that were rude hurt me deeply...(and now that I am better than some of them;)...I am always more gracious than they were when dancing with them...b/c I doubt I was even significant enough to them back then that they even remember what pompous arses they were...ahem...sorry, a rare moment of not very divine candor)

fascination

08-05-2008, 07:56 PM

Fascination - I love your comments ....:)

My speaking is not quite so eloquent .... mine is so brusque. :(
I save brusque for the people I love and they have the scars to prove it:rolleyes:

fascination

08-05-2008, 07:56 PM

but thank you for your kind words

emeralddancer

08-05-2008, 08:01 PM

Fasc ... I agree it is a head scratcher. Thus why not going to that particular studio. (I do not think ALL the people there were like that. Please understand there were alot of great people there. :) ) Just because of that one person and it was a year ago.

Hm .... maybe I will go back. LOL you never know ....

fascination

08-05-2008, 08:05 PM

I had an incident not long ago where a newb in a group class mistook my reassurances for some sort of arrogance ...I later found out that this had to do with alot of factors that had nothing to do with me...but at the time he was very rude to me, refused to dance with me in rotation and refused my apology for inadvertantly offending him...I was crushed...to the point that I could not attend the party that followed immediately thereafter... apologized to the owner and the teacher of the group...told them I was sorry and mystified...but i was devastated that anyone would find me anything other than supportive and welcoming and warm...but he didn't...I skipped a few parties but when I returned he mustered up the courage to ask me to dance...and it was his way of apologizing ...and I am glad I let myself be open to that...even if he hadn't...I didn't need to leave...egos can be tricky...his, and mine

emeralddancer

08-05-2008, 08:08 PM

Fasc ... good point!

Maybe if I ever cross this persons path in the future I will work up the courage to ask again. Never know ...

emeralddancer

08-05-2008, 08:08 PM

I am all for 2 trys.

fascination

08-05-2008, 08:10 PM

I try very hard to remember that just because another person doesn't like me or want to dance with me, doesn't mean that I am universally not worth it...it is hard, but I owe myself that sort of self-respect...and I am not in control of other people's heart and minds...bummer...but...I'm not

Peaches

08-05-2008, 08:23 PM

...b/c for me...the memory of dancing with kind and merciful dancers at socials when I was new was a treasure...the feeling was a brief glimpse into what was in store for me...their kindness allowed me to maintain the courage to continue...Same here. I have very, very, VERY fond memories of specific dances when I was really just starting. Certain men will always have a special place in my heart for the kindness and patience and encouragement they showed to me. I have tried to pass that on.

WRT saying no... I do, at times, say no. If I'd otherwise like to dance with the person, but not at the moment (eating, catching my breath, etc.), I'm sure to SAY THAT when I say no. Usually I ask them to find me for the next dance, or I'll hunt them down. (Stalker Peaches!) If I get asked for a style that I don't like or don't do, I'll say that, and ask for the next dance.

I have said no, without explanation and without apology, only a couple of times. When I do this it's because I've tried dancing with the person before and have been hurt (or was lucky to escape being hurt), or the guy creeps me out, or I feel he's a danger to me and to others. I've done it more with AT than I used to in BR, because in AT you're on the hook for ~4 dances once you say yes. 10-12 minutes is a long time when you're worried about being injured or felt up.