Pitiful Swivels -- Help!

[pygmalion]

Okay, guys. I'm working on ECS and WCS technique, and like to add the occasional swivel, either led or unled, just spice things up. Problem? My swivels are yucky! :x Any suggestions on how to make them neater, and sexier, too, while we're at it? :D

[SwinginBoo]

If you have time to practice, try to do it in front of a mirror. Put your left hand on your lower hip. Take both feet and twist to the left, then right. Do this without moving your waist up. keep your body from the waist up facing forward. This makes your swivels look soooooooo smooth. It takes a bit of practice, but the outcome of your swivels is awesome! :D

[DanceMentor]

I assume you mean outside swivels. Remember, the swivel occurs on the supporting foot, and you want each swivel to end with both feet facing the same direction (what swinginboo said).

[pygmalion]

Yes, I was referring to outside swivels, but I know a lady who can add in some mean inside swivels, as well. I'll take whatever advice I can get. I'm that bad. :x :lol: :D

[Swing Kitten]

hip isolations... try every direction imaginable while not moving your upper half.

best in front of a mirror

[LindyKeya]

A good technique for refining one's swivels is to do all of the above suggested things together, and if you can, it can be useful to practice holding onto a bar or something of that nature and sitting way back (ie piking, especially if you are into Hollywood type Lindy stylings). Being able to take a lot of your weight off for practice helps refine your footwork. And always remember to keep your thighs together!

[Swing Kitten]

Very good point LindyKeya... I wouldn't have thought to mention thigh position... it would definitely through off your swivels to have your thighs apart.

Welcome to the Forums! Hope to hear more from you! What part of Utah are you from?

[CCKitty]

Piking back is key to making swivels look good. Don't bend your knee a whole bunch, (I know you can't do it with a perfectly straight knee).

[pygmalion]

Hi CCKitty! Welcome to the forums! :D

Thanks for the swivels help. I'm not sure what you mean by piking back, though. And do you think there's some bend/straighten action involved in swivels, or do they stay at the same angle throughout?

[CCKitty]

Some dancers despise piking back, which means that both the lead and the follow have their centers of gravity slightly behind their feet.

Speaking in generalities it means that if you let go of each other, you will have to take a quick step back or you with fall over.

Again in generalities, if you picture the couple at 7 & 8 you will see their feet closer to each other than any other part of their bodies (except the hands that they are holding to each other).

I enjoy this type of swing out, very exciting. As a follow, try to give your lead some weight to pull but not too much. Your lead will have to be into this style or he won't be happy.
-------------------

About the knee bending......Let's assume you are pulled in to your lead on 1. (Some don't pull til 2) You must bend your knee to pick up your right foot. You will put your right foot down a little closer to your lead, with your toe pointing out,as far to the right as you can, and with your knee as straight as you can. This is when piking back is put to good use, it will make the straighter leg position easier.

Then do the same thing again with your left foot on 2, only point your left toe to the left as far as you can....... your right foot will return to the forward pointing position as you are stepping past it with your left foot on 2.

Typically you might want to swivel on 8 with your left foot. This swivel is a little different because you will not be stepping forward, (I turn my body to the left as I swivel this one slightly behind me.) The straight leg is not good on this swivel.

[Swing Kitten]

Welcome CCKitty... I enjoy your winking signature! hehehe It's very nice to have you with us... the more swing dancers the better I'd say ;) How long have you been dancing?

[SDsalsaguy]

Admit it SK... you also like having more then one swing kitty in the mix! :wink:

[Swing Kitten]

Kitties are good!

notice you don't see many Salsa Kittens! ;)

[SDsalsaguy]

Your logic being... :?

[Swing Kitten]

I honestly don't know where I was going with that.

It makes perfect sense that there wouldn't be salsa kittens, polka kittens, or even tango kittens... Cats and kittens are part of the swing culture slang... not that many people use it very much. eh, it's nice to have another Lindy Hopper on board!

[SDsalsaguy]

I honestly don't know where I was going with that.
Phew... glad to know it wasn't just me! :wink:

[Swing Kitten]

No need to worry SD, it's not your fault salsa seems low on kittens! ;)

[SDsalsaguy]

:tongue:

[pygmalion]

Salsa has full-grown, prowling tigresses. Think not? Go to any salsa club. :lol:

Um. What does this have to do with swivels? Hmm? :lol: :lol:

[Sarah]

Salsa has full-grown, prowling tigresses. Think not? Go to any salsa club. :lol:

Um. What does this have to do with swivels? Hmm? :lol: :lol:

Have you ever tried swiveling on all four paws at once - it's not easy I tell you. Gotta keep the claws retracted or you'll damage the dancefloor.

Cheers
Sarah <more of a lynx, really>

[Swing Kitten]

Salsa has full-grown, prowling tigresses. Think not? Go to any salsa club. :lol:
You have to watch out for those tigresses... it's all well and good until they go for the jugular! I would imagine it would be difficult to relax and have fun when being 'prowled.'


Um. What does this have to do with swivels? Hmm? :lol: :lol:
Nothing and thank you for asking! :D

Have you ever tried swiveling on all four paws at once - it's not easy I tell you. Gotta keep the claws retracted or you'll damage the dancefloor.

I hate it when that happens!!

[d nice]

A lot of what has been suggested has been for making swivels better within a specific style. Straight-legged and close thighed (knees really) is the Jewel McGowan/Jean Veloz method for swivels. I love the way they look, but it isn't the only way. Syvia Sykes has her own method which differs a bit from theirs and is equally awesome.

Personally the best swivels I've ever seen are done by Sandra Gibson. Just breath taking, she uses a pretty deep bend in her knees and keeps her legs at least hip width apart, so a lot of it is going to be personal preference, but being extradodinarily skilled can make any style look great.

Sara Van Drake has awesome Westie swivels and she does it in a different manner than everyone else mentioned.

Now swivels versus switches, piking is completely dependant on what you are being lead into. If you try and use counterbalance rather than letting the leader create it, you are going to end up on your boutre.

Remember your weight transfer needs to be complete, one foot transitioning smoothly to the other. Do not split your weight. Lift the free foot so it is just above the floor, don't scuff, drag, or shuffle. Rotate on the ball of the weight bearing leg. Don't turn the hip, or the ankle, or the knee seperately but the entire leg swivels together and BOTH knees always face the same direction at the same time and stay in sync. Do not completely isolate your lower body from your upper. If you do so you make it much harder for the leader to determine where your weight us. What you want is to use your torso from the hips to the shoulders to "drive" the swivels so there is some counterbody rotation going on. Your right hand should have pressure switching from the inside edge of your hand to the outside edge of your hand wihtin the leader's grasp. This way he can not only feel where your weight is but control it.

[Swing Kitten]

Well said as always!

[SwinginBoo]

What wonderful advice! :D

[suek]

Damon, I see some material here for my next private:
Now swivels versus switches, piking is completely dependant on what you are being lead into. If you try and use counterbalance rather than letting the leader create it, you are going to end up on your boutre.
Huh?

Remember your weight transfer needs to be complete, one foot transitioning smoothly to the other. Do not split your weight. Lift the free foot so it is just above the floor, don't scuff, drag, or shuffle.
This is great! NOW I can do the Sylvia Sykes syncopation (see that other thread) that Swingin Boo told me about. I couldn't go from feet crossed to a swivel. Duh; keeping that other foot hovering does the trick real nicely. Thanks

Rotate on the ball of the weight bearing leg. Don't turn the hip, or the ankle, or the knee seperately but the entire leg swivels together and BOTH knees always face the same direction at the same time and stay in sync. Do not completely isolate your lower body from your upper. If you do so you make it much harder for the leader to determine where your weight us. What you want is to use your torso from the hips to the shoulders to "drive" the swivels so there is some counterbody rotation going on. Your right hand should have pressure switching from the inside edge of your hand to the outside edge of your hand wihtin the leader's grasp. This way he can not only feel where your weight is but control it.
Huh? again. I'm doing them in the mirror and don't see the contrabody rotation. Maybe the lead/follow has something to do with it. I'm glad I get to ask in person.

[d nice]

If you try and use counterbalance rather than letting the leader create it, you are going to end up on your boutre.
Huh?

If you try and initiate it on your own, you run the risk of falling on your toukus.

Huh? again. I'm doing them in the mirror and don't see the contrabody rotation. Maybe the lead/follow has something to do with it. I'm glad I get to ask in person.

This is something you probably need to see to really understand what I'm talking about if the description wasn't enough. Think the sweeps in Chicago Steppin. The torso turns and the lower body comes after. Not true isolation just a delay of movement. So if your upper and lower body start facing left, the upper body turns right the lower body slowly begins to turn right. As the lower body is in full motion the upper body has already begun turning to the left.

[pygmalion]

Makes sense to me. My coach calls it the separation of church and state. Upper body church, lower body state. And you use the concept all the time -- with spins and turns, with swivels, to create snap with your hips in certain movements. All the time. :D

[d nice]

yep

[Swing Kitten]

So how do swivels differ in WCS vs. Lindy? That would be good to know-- there's no hiding the fact that good swivels are pivotal ;)

[SwinginBoo]

I could be totally wrong here, but I don't think swivels are an essential part of WCS. :?

[Swing Kitten]

Sorry... I was making a joke that wasn't funny... pivoting and swivels... how you must pivot to swivel.... again.... sorry

But I really am curious as to how the swivels differ between the dances.

[Vince A]

Thanks d nice,
I will attempt some of what you suggested. I do swivels, but the swivels are the ones that I learned in the Cha Cha and incorporated them into the ECS . . . close, but no cigar!

[pygmalion]

Isn't that weird? When I started this thread, I felt like I was asking a dumb question. But it looks like a lot of people were able to learn something from it, myself included. I guess that goes to show there's no such thing as a dumb question. ... Usually. :lol: :D

[SDsalsaguy]

Warning: The following comment is entirely off topic!
I guess that goes to show there's no such thing as a dumb question. ... Usually. :lol: :D
Guess you haven't taught any college classes recently Jenn... :wink:

[d nice]

I could be totally wrong here, but I don't think swivels are an essential part of WCS. :?

Swivels aren't an essential part of lindy hop either. They are the generally the followers first styling element, but they aren't essential.

[d nice]

Sorry... I was making a joke that wasn't funny... pivoting and swivels... how you must pivot to swivel.... again.... sorry

But I really am curious as to how the swivels differ between the dances.

Its all about posture and musicality.

Technically there is no difference in how you execute a swivel... though I have heard switches refered to as swivels in wcs, I've heard twists (whole body rotation, not contra body rotation) refer to as swivels in wcs. So terminology may be different... but the method of what I call swivels is done the same in both dances, but within the character of the dance.

[SDsalsaguy]

Hmmm, you have me thinking now Damon...

What would you say are essential differences, if anything, between the different swing dances?

[Vince A]

d nice,
Thanks, this is really helpful.

So, to take this just a bit further, if technically, the 'switches' in WCS and the 'swivels' in ECS and Cha Cha are essentially the same, with the differences being how they are prepped and lead, is the hand-hold connection (palm-to-palm) the same in all three?

I also noticed that my body is somewhat more or less upright in the different dances. Is this correct? Does the body need to be the same in all???

[suek]

me too. I get the "look" when I swivel in WCS. also for the bounce. oh well...it's a tough discipline for me especially on borderline music.

[will35]

This is just an accident, but the pivot, I believe, is one of the most important things in Tango. We mostly pivot with the feet together, stepping with the outside foot, pivoting on the inside foot. Opposite from the Army way. This makes the partners seem to move away from each other, but the hips come closer. Very attractive way to dance. The knees are bent, or they break. The torso leads the way, and the feet just go along after with the force from the upper body twist. That way, when I turn my partner's upper body a certain way, she just goes like magic. No work. Of course, the weight is completely on the inside foot of the turn, and the feet are together.

[CCKitty]

Switches & Swivels, as taught and danced by lindy hoppers I've learned from, are entirely different - But if done correctly look almost exactly alike.

Swivels are done as many postings above have described - while switches are actually kick-ball-changes.

[pygmalion]

Hmm. Sounds interesting. How do you make a kick ball change look swivelly? (I know that's not a word! LOL! :lol: )

[d nice]

This is just an accident, but the pivot, I believe, is one of the most important things in Tango. We mostly pivot with the feet together, stepping with the outside foot, pivoting on the inside foot. Opposite from the Army way.

Actually thgis is the military way. If I am going to do a right flank, I step with my left foot, pivot on my right to face right...

Unless what you are talking about is that in a marching to marching pivot (flanking, oblique, or reverse order) the feet stay apart, while in Tango they are brought together.

[pygmalion]

Hmm, dnice. I'm not sure, but it sounds like what you're describing may be what one of my dance teachers calls military turns (not sure if that's the right name). Step forward on the left, for example, make a sharp and precise turn to the right, often 180 degree change of direction. I'm not sure what will35 was referring to, but the military turns I've done in ballroom are much, much different than ballroom tango (foxtrot, waltz, quickstep, etc.) pivots. I'm still learning pivot technique. Heck, I started a thread to ask dumb questions about them! :lol: So I may be mistaken in this instance. But there are two totally different things, sometimes called by the same name, which adds to the general confusion. :?

[CCKitty]

Let me see now.....When a follow is taking a swivel step with her right foot, she points her toes to the right as she steps forward - sets weight on it - and swivels her foot to turn it leftwards as she moves her left foot into place to step on it. Her weight can be forward if she likes Savoy style or it can be piked back for Hollywood or Dean Collins style.

For switches, she needs a counter pull from her partner and she needs to pike back. As her right foot moves forward, she is doing the 'kick' portion of the kick-ball-change. Keep the kick low, and no-one will even see that it's a kick.
Then she does the little hop required to un-weight her left foot and move it forward and to the left. For that fraction of a second her weight is shared between her lead's left hand and the ball of her right foot. (her weight is not OVER her right foot - that's why there will be a strong pull on her lead)This is the 'ball' part of the kick-ball-change. The 'change' part happens every time her left foot is landed in a new spot.

The kick part can look VERY sexy if the right foot actually slides forward along the floor. No one will ever see that it's a kick-ball-change if it's done correctly.

[will35]

You're right. The military way is what I described. What was I thinking? But it really doesn't make sense does it? If you are turning with a lot of speed when you are jogging, you use the outside foot to keep you from flipping over. Like the veldrome floor is banked like a cup.

[d nice]

The description of switches is an excellent description of the Hollwood manner. Weight sharing (counterbalance), piking, and hopping are not a requirment for other styles of switches.