quickstep technique question

[cl5814]

ok, my instructor is in europe for 2 weeks and left me to practice our routine. of course, i will have a question now that he is not here to answer. i don't want to practice it wrong either.
half natural turn has abrupt rise and fall, that, i am sure of. what about full natural turn (apparently not danced that often)? Does the first half of the full natural turn inherit the abrupt rise and fall or not ?

[contracheck]

half natural turn has abrupt rise and fall, that, i am sure of. what about full natural turn (apparently not danced that often)? Does the first half of the full natural turn inherit the abrupt rise and fall or not ?
Are you talking about Natural Spin Turn? There is no such thing as half natural turn or full natural turn. There is only one natural Turn: 1/8th clockwise turn. There are underturning Natural Spin Turn and Overturning Natural Spin Turn.

[cl5814]

no, i am not talking spin turn, i know the spin turn. I am talking about the natural turn, consisting of 6 steps as found in bronze quickstep syllabus.
apparently not danced that often, so that is maybe why you are not familiar with it.


Quickstep : from the usistd.org website.
Pre-Bronze/Student Teacher
1. Quarter Turn to R
2. Natural Turn <----
3. Natural Turn with Hesitation
4. Natural Pivot Turn
5. Natural Spin Turn
6. Progressive Chasse
7. Chasse Reverse Turn
8. Forward Lock

[Larinda McRaven]

the first half of the natural is danced all the time... it has 3/8 rotation. the natural ending also has 3/8. which half are you asking for help with?

[cl5814]

I want to know about the first half of the natural turn.

The more i think about it, the more i want to say, it would *not* inherit the abrupt rise and fall.

I would still like to know what you experienced folks say....

[contracheck]

the first half of the natural is danced all the time... it has 3/8 rotation. the natural ending also has 3/8. which half are you asking for help with?
I start natural turn facing DW and back LOD when I complete the natural Turn. Have I been doing all wrong?

[contracheck]

no, i am not talking spin turn, i know the spin turn. I am talking about the natural turn, consisting of 6 steps as found in bronze quickstep syllabus.
apparently not danced that often, so that is maybe why you are not familiar with it.


Quickstep : from the usistd.org website.
Pre-Bronze/Student Teacher
1. Quarter Turn to R
2. Natural Turn <----
3. Natural Turn with Hesitation

Looks to me this is a good old regualr Natural Turn. I go Flat S (R), Up on Q(L), Down on Q(R). This is mens step.

[Larinda McRaven]

when you complete the natural turn you are facing dc... 3/4 rotation.
when you complete half a natural you are backing lod... 3/8
when you complete an underturned natural you are backing dc... 1/4


cl5814, the rise and fall is quicker (not abrupt), but only because the music is faster. the book says "rise end of 1" for quickstep instead of "begin to rise end of 1" which is more associated with slow waltz.

But i would not exactly worry about this aspect of it practicing by yourself. the fact that you can walk through your patterns by yourself, knowing your alignments, footwork, and counts is what is most important. The speed of the rise is directly related to the speed of the music... when you put on a quickstep your feet/body will naturally react and rise quicker.

this is coming from a teachers p.o.v. looking at a dancer learning to practice by themselves. i am sure there are many others who will disagree and give you far more information, but i think for you to not get overly concerned with the speed is ok, unless you are actually trying to dance up to tempo.

[Chris Stratton]

half natural turn has abrupt rise and fall, that, i am sure of. what about full natural turn (apparently not danced that often)? Does the first half of the full natural turn inherit the abrupt rise and fall or not ?

Well, where does the rise and fall get defined? In the book... and what follows the first three steps in the book but the second? So from a simplistic sense, yes the technique of the first three steps of the full natural turn is the same as the technique of the first three steps followed by something else.

Only it may not quite be completely true. I think the nature of the fall on the third step probably should change a tiny bit depending on what is going to happen next. So there might be a hair of a difference between step three of a natural to be followed by say a tipple, vs step three to be followed by the no-rise heel pull action of a full natural. But this would be a small enough difference that it would be something you'd figure out by feel with your teacher's help, it's not the kind of thing that is likely to be written up in a technique book.

[contracheck]

when you complete the natural turn you are facing dc... 3/4 rotation.

This is the Natural Turn in Waltz and not in Quick Step. In Waltz, it takes 6 steps (including the "Back-Side-Together"-the second half. In my opinion, this Back-Side-Together part should not be called as a part of the Natural Turn but they do) to achieve 3/4 turn (ending facing the DC). As I understand, we don't do the "Back-Side-Together" in Quick Step's Natural Turn as we do in Waltz. In Quick Step, the Natural Turn is consisted of the first three steps (which results in a 3/8th of a turn, not 1/8th as I mistakenly said) and no more - no back-side-together. Thence, we can do Tipple Chasse or Spin or Pivot or Heistation or Back Lock.There is no 1/2 Natural Turn in Quick Step: it is natural Turn.

[Chris Stratton]

This is the Natural Turn in Waltz and not in Quick Step. It takes 6 steps (including Back-Side-Together) to achieve 3/4 turn (ending facing the DC). As I understand we don't do Back-Side-Together in Quick Step's Natural Turn as we do in Waltz. In Quick Step, the Natural Turn is consisted of the first three step (3/8th of a turn, not 1/8th as I mistakenly said) and no more - no back-side-together. There is no 1/2 Natural Turn in Quick Step.

You are mistaken. The natural turn of quickstep is a six step figure with a heel pull ending, timing SQQSSS. However the first three steps are more popular than the complete figure. In a way this is true for waltz as well, where the back half natural is popularly replaced by a spin turn variant.
(despite the passing feet and lady's heel turn, Foxtrot's natural is also 6 steps with a less popular heel pull ending SQQSSS)

[contracheck]

You are mistaken. The natural turn of quickstep is a six step figure with a heel pull ending, timing SQQSSS.
I beg your pardon, but it looks like you are describing two separate steps here: a Natural Turn (SQQ) and Hesitation (SSS). Hesitation is a totally independent step that has nothing to do with the Natrual Turn.

[cl5814]

Thanks Larinda. Yes, as a follower, i know the alignments, footwork, counts of the figures. The two things left that i have trouble with were proper rise and fall and speed of steps. I think my teacher means abrupt (as opposed to delayed rise and fall in tipple chasse) rise and fall as to when you compare the rise and fall to waltz and because the music is faster (like you pointed out).

I am still training my brain and feet to talk to one another faster so that i can dance faster, so speed is a concern to me. Question to self : Why did you decide to learn quickstep as your first standard dance ? (mumbles) Cause that is what was taught in group class.

Thanks for referring me to technique book, i should have examined it closer than a glance over it.

[cl5814]

You are mistaken. The natural turn of quickstep is a six step figure with a heel pull ending, timing SQQSSS.
I beg your pardon, but it looks like you are describing two separate steps here: a Natural Turn (SQQ) and Hesitation (SSS). Hesitation is a totally independent step that has nothing to do with the Natrual Turn.

I agree with Chris.
There are 2 different natural turns, a full natural turn and a natural turn with hesitation in quickstep. A half natural turn is step 1 to 3 of full natural turn. The difference between full natural turn and natural turn with hesitation are mainly in step 6 of the turns. For full natural step, you step back with your right foot for step 6 (followers footwork). For hesitation step, step 6 is placing your right foot with no weight next to your left foot (followers footwork).

[Chris Stratton]

Contracheck, you seem to be unaware that the ISTD, IDTA, and several other organizations publish manuals which formally define the steps named on their syllabi. While you and your partner/teacher/friends are welcome to come up with any private definitions you like, people outside your circle will tend to interpret your words in the context of public meanings such as those given by the syllabus manuals, rather than your private meanings which we may not know.

On the full natural vs. natural with hesitation - a quick look seems to suggest that perhaps the real difference is one of which foot you desire to have free for the next figure.

[Larinda McRaven]

While you and your partner/teacher/friends are welcome to come up with any private definitions you like,....

ala squaredancing...

[cl5814]

On the full natural vs. natural with hesitation - a quick look seems to suggest that perhaps the real difference is one of which foot you desire to have free for the next figure.

Thanks a lot for pointing that out Chris, i hadn't realized that important difference.

[contracheck]

On the full natural vs. natural with hesitation - a quick look seems to suggest that perhaps the real difference is one of which foot you desire to have free for the next figure.
In other words, the Full Natural Turn is done as in Natural Turn Waltz? If so, this is incorrect. Such step does not exist in Quick Step.

[Chris Stratton]

In other words, the Full Natural Turn is done as in Natural Turn Waltz? If so, this is incorrect. Such step does not exist in Quick Step.

No, it consists of a forward half natural that is a SQQ quickstep flavored version of the waltz figure, followed by a heel pull counted SSS.

And natural turn with hesistation is actually given simply as a reference to the waltz forward half natural and drag hesitation.

Buy an ISTD book... for a small volume there's a lot in there, enough that even after owning one for a few years I still consult it almost daily, usually to check up on how some idea I've come up with matches with what is written there.

[Larinda McRaven]

In other words, the Full Natural Turn is done as in Natural Turn Waltz? If so, this is incorrect. Such step does not exist in Quick Step.

no

The Waltz natural ends - back, side, close

The Quickstep natural ends - back, side, fwd

The Hesitation ending to both W and Q is - back, side, together no weight

[Egoist]

No, it consists of a forward half natural that is a SQQ quickstep flavored version of the waltz figure, followed by a heel pull counted SSS.



Isn't that the same for the seldom done natural turn in foxtrot?

[contracheck]

The Quickstep natural ends - back, side, fwd

It seems to me that this step you described is the Running Finish, i.e., Natural Turn (the right turning S,Q,Q), followed by the Runnig Finish (S,Q,Q, not SSS as Chris insists).

[Larinda McRaven]

no

the quickstep running finish (qqs or sqq) is danced outside partner - proceeded by a chasse to right - back lock - cross swivel - or hover corte i think

the back half of the natural (sss) is proceeded by the first half of the natural

(ballroomdancers.com/Shopping/view_item.asp?SID=3)



No, it consists of a forward half natural that is a SQQ quickstep flavored version of the waltz figure, followed by a heel pull counted SSS.

Isn't that the same for the seldom done natural turn in foxtrot?yes Egoist, same ending

[contracheck]

the quickstep running finish (qqs or sqq) is danced outside partner - proceeded by a chasse to right - back lock - cross swivel - or hover corte i think the back half of the natural (sss) is proceeded by the first half of the natural

I agree with you on Running Finish. I now agree with you on Natural Turn if the last S is used as the Preparation Step.

[Chris Stratton]

The heel pull action that ends both the quickstep and foxtrot natural turns can take a little getting used to. In terms of amount of turn, it's the same 3/8 as the back half natural of waltz. But the action is heel pull: not the familiar closed footed sort of heel pull called a heel turn, but actually a turn between feet which are braced a natural distance apart. Its sort of like a lazy, failed heel turn, but a precise one! There is no rise.

[Chris Stratton]

I agree with you on Running Finish. I now agree with you on Natural Turn if the last S is used as the Preparation Step.

Not 100% sure about this, but when "starting over" this way I think it's more customary to use the natural turn with hesitation. Basically the third slow in that version is a hesitation without weight change, then the 4th is your 'prep step' and you start the next natural on the 5th slow, which is to say an odd slow, so the phrasing works out. Of course if you start the natural off phrase, you could as you suggest do the natural turn, count its third slow as your prep, and start in on a 4th slow, which added to a mid measure start would put you back on phrase.

Or to put it more practically, you can dance the first five steps, wait an extra slow if needed for phrasing, then go out with your prep step to finish one measure and start your new natural with the next... and you would probably do this by feel, not by thought.

[contracheck]

the quickstep running finish (qqs or sqq) is danced outside partner - proceeded by a chasse to right - back lock - cross swivel - or hover corte i think the back half of the natural (sss) is proceeded by the first half of the natural

I agree with you on Running Finish. I now agree with you on Natural Turn if the last S is used as the Preparation Step.
In second thought, I agree only partially. I don't think you can do Running Finish after Cross Swivel or Havor Corte. I'd follow your explanation (Natural Turn - Hesitation - Chasse to the Right - Back Lock) to the Back Lock step then do 2 backward slows (for men, RS, LS) then enter Running Finish to thurn the corner. Does this make sense? This is going to be a part of my Silver QS routine. Id i am wrong please let me know as soon as possible. Muscle memory takes time and my comp is around the corner. I've tried to add Cross Swivel or Havor Corte before Running Finsish but, in my ability, I cannot.

[Chris Stratton]

In second thought, I agree only partially. I don't think you can do Running Finish after Cross Swivel or Havor Corte.

Larinda was quoting the suggested amaglamations right out of the ISTD book or her ISTD-member memory.

I'd follow your explanation (Natural Turn - Hesitation - Chasse to the Right - Back Lock) to the Back Lock step then do 2 backward slows (for men, RS, LS) then enter Running Finish to thurn the corner. Does this make sense?


May work, but not legal for syllabus, because the extra two flat slows are being invented. Why not just dance the left foot back step five of the back lock as step one of the running finish? This is common with bronze students everywhere.

I've tried to add Cross Swivel or Havor Corte before Running Finsish but, in my ability, I cannot.

Can't say I've ever tried it (except just now alone in the kitchen), but I doubt it would be officially suggested if it didn't work.

BTW, the cross swivel is gold, so you probably don't want it in a silver routine.