DanceMentor
10-21-2003, 09:15 AM
FACE TO FACE / CARLOS COPELO & ALICIA MONTI
(courtesy of Reportango, the Tango Magazine (http://www.reportango.com))
Not unlike the first dance steps of many colleagues, those of Alicia Monti
were of ballet. One day she asked a dancer where she could learn tango. The
answer was never formally given. So Alicia began looking on her own, and
after asking around she arrived at the legendary salon at 1331 Canning Street
(although the street had been renamed many years before to Scalabrini Ortíz,
nobody will ever recognize going to dance at any other dance hall in that
neighborhood than the one on Canning Street). There was Miguel Balmaceda and
Nelly, her first teachers. And there she also learned of a whole new world,
a night world she was not familiar with, a very dramatic change, as Alicia
herself points out. He was coming precisely from that mysterious sub-world
of the night. Carlos Copello was a night man by choice. He had been dancing
rock since he was twenty, and he thought he was a very good dancer.
Nevertheless today he says "I realize I was rude, since I watch videos of all
these people who made that culture and I realize they were truly great." He
came to tango almost by chance, through friends (the same ones that danced
rock) with whom, at the end of every night, he would go to an old café were
tangos were played.
RT: What do you remember of those classes at Canning?
Alicia Monti: Miguel was a very demanding teacher. "Girl walk, walk!" he
would say. "Listen to the music," and I felt that I could never go to a
milonga. And the milongueros placed a lot of distance with the students,
also a student would never go to a milonga after two or three classes. I
took classes for about six months before I went to a milonga. I am not sure
if it was out of fear or respect.
RT: And what were you most scared of? To bump against somebody on the dance
floor or the critical look of the milongueros?
AM: Both things. But also a lot of respect, because you saw them dance so
well, and so effortlessly. Also at that time I met Carlos, and as soon as we
met we began dancing together. Practicing. It was good, but, at the same
time, he did not dare go out either. We did not have in our mind to go
quickly to the milonga. We were very critical with ourselves and we thought
we were not ready yet the way we were dancing.
Carlos Copello: I'll be honest, when I first saw tango I thought I could do
that easily! And it wasn't like that...not at all! A month and half later I
wanted to quit because I couldn't even do the basic step. I was a mummy.
And thanks to Alicia who constantly encouraged me to continue, I stayed. I
don't want to lie to you by saying "I danced tango since I was a kid, my dad
danced tango and my grandfather danced tango," but I did not dance as a kid,
everybody says that and they lie. I discovered that tango was something very
complex. To do the step is something simple, but to dance tango, to have
tango is the most difficult thing there is.
RT: What do you mean, "to have" tango?
CC: How can I explain it to you? I mean to have the tango mentality, to live
for tango. Not to think I want to be the most famous. I had a great teacher
who would tell me: To dance simple is the most difficult. And with time I
realized he was right. To do a choreography is easy. You practice it for a
whole year and you learn it. To have tango and to have a certain way of
speaking, of approaching the table, of dressing, of smoking. The tanguero is
as if he would live of memories. He lives of poetry. That is why I feel
that we have an advantage over foreigners. As we were talking with Raul
Beron, there are times in your life when you have gone through that
experience. So it is as if the feeling is reawakened. Unfortunately
foreigners don't usually get the poetry that is meant. That is why the
tanguero "has" tango.
RT: So you think it is necessary to understand suffering to dance tango?
C: I think suffering is part of life. If you haven't suffered is because
you have never lived in this planet. There are sufferings and there are
sufferings. In my case I was raised in poverty and you have to know how to
be poor.
AM: I don't think it has to do with suffering all the time. What happens is
that you mature and what happens with tango lyrics is that at some point in
life something happened to you that made you change and mature and you feel
things similar to that in tango lyrics. Tango speaks about everything.
CC: To give you an example with Raul Berón, who is my idol, there is a tango
that says: "Corazon no le hagas caso, ni te amargues por su ausencia...."
["Heart don't pay attention, or anguish yourself for her absence" He is not
talking to a woman, he is speaking to his heart, and you yourself pass this
on to your heart, this it to have tango. And that's what happens to me with
swing or rock. I would love to know what the lyrics say. To dance tango
well is not to dance a tanguito. There are people who are not conscious that
to dance tango well is to belong to a very important culture. There are
things a teacher cannot teach you: the night experience, to talk to somebody,
to drink a coffee. In my case I don't know how many nights I spent with Pepe
Avellaneda talking. That guy was a piece of tango! I would say to him:
"Pepe you have to teach me." And he would say: "What am I going to teach
you? Stop bugging me." And I would take Alicia to Pepe's school and I would
dance there. And he wasn't somebody technical who would tell you do 1, 2... he
would say dance, dance. I would dance with him, and that "dance" scream will
make you dance.
AM: We've been dancing together for 15 years as a couple and we had tough
times, times when we fought a lot and we mature and even tango helped us a
lot.
CC: I feel very bad about so many great tango couples that separated. In
our case we fought for an objective. When I met her, I told her: "I'm going
to take you to the best stages in the world, but we have to work." And we
practiced like beasts. And argue, we'll always argue. But we shouldn't get
angry. Let the fight be the argument but let's not live angry. Of all that
we planned we have probably done 50 or 70% but thank God we still have the
same objective. Working, practicing, and I believe our goal is to be part of
the history of tango, beyond going to Broadway or Tokyo, is to remain in
tango. So when we are no longer alive, somebody will say: "Man, el Negro
Copelo and Alicia danced very well." That's what we want for our own work.
That is the biggest fortune that tango can bring, although I live of tango,
tango changed my life, because I was coming from a very tough life. And I
think we are doing well, and we'll continue together...we are not going to
fight now.
RT: We wouldn't want to be witnesses to that....
CC: No, that's right... (laughs)
RT: I believe you are going down this road of being part of the history of
tango. One sees images of tango or Buenos Aires outside of Argentina and it
is almost always your picture. There is a prestige you have managed to
accumulate throughout the years, don't you think?
CC: Yes, one knows the background work one has done. And it bothers me lot
(and I'm not talking specifically about me, I'm talking about everybody from
Petroleo on) to all be stuck in the same bag. People forget and the new
generations don't value things as much. There has to be more respect.
AM: It is like that thing people say, that there are necessary evils. In
this case you want tango to be better known everywhere and because of that
they often learn superficially, a bit from everybody, and sometimes without
the proper respect. When we went to San Francisco and they talked to us
negatively about Copes, with an ease and shamelessness... just a kid who began
yesterday and who can't do two impressive figures.
CC: That's why I think there is lack of respect for the culture. Shows, for
instance... there are people who mixed up the shows a lot with the milonga and
those are two things that have nothing alike. The show is one thing and the
milonga is another. The same thing with the different types of tango. There
are people who cannot distinguish a tango, from a milonga, from a waltz. It
is as if they were taught all together. A tango from the 1930s and one of
the 1950s, no difference. I think we, as teachers, must teach them that. Of
course, maybe they spend two pesos with a random person who doesn't bother to
tell them that. But it isn't the same, because there are folks who know
about tango and there are folks who don't.
RT: Did any of you have any family members who danced tango?
AM: No. My dad liked to listened to tango, and watched "Grandes Valores del
Tango" [a TV show], but he didn't dance.
CC: I found out later, but my family is from Santiago del Estero. And they
played music, they learned by ear, they did Malabo, and my dad used to
organized dances where he played folklore and some tango. Musicians, and
singers used to come.
AM: I used to watch what my dad on TV, and when I went to study tango with
Miguel to the milonga I saw that they taught a totally different kind of
tango. And so I began discovering what tango was, and I am still studying
and learning.
CC: The other day we had a class with Julio Balmaceda, the son of Miguel, we
took classes with Hector & Patricia, Petaca. We are always researching and we
always discover things we did not know. I also wanted to look into taking
classes with Copes. Because although they might do steps we already know, to
see the way in which they teach, to know what they do that goes beyond the
steps.
RT: At your level what more can you learn of tango?
CC: Well, discover more tango. I thing there's more tango, much more. For
instance, the other day, talking to musicians they tell me this and that
about Rovira. And I had never listened to anything by Rovira. And they lent
me a tape and when I began listening to it, I went crazy. He was a musical
genius! People abroad don't know Rovira. And that's how you keep on learning
things. You discover more of the essence of tango. I think that is what
interests us. The essence of tango, and to be able to translate that essence
on stage.
RT: Can you define that essence?
CC: I'll give you names: I used to go to Sunderland [a milonga] and I met
the Chelo Perico. And I said Wow!!! He is not a guy who does great little
figures, but he has a quality, a walk, a body posture, a way of moving, of
seating, of talking. A bad man's face that after talking for a few minutes
begins to seduce you. All that is enclosed in the essence of tango as well.
Also, being a companion, respecting a friend, respecting the woman. It's a
way of life. I always say that to be a tanguero you have to become
tango-sick.
RT: And how's your level of sickness? (laughs)
CC: My level is bad...(laughs) I think it's critical. To give you an example,
my car radio is on 92.7 [The tango radio La 2x4 FM] and I want to keep on
discovering things.
AM: It's the same for me. I think every time it gets worse. And I see it
in other people. They begin to see what it is about, and there are people
who have separated, who have found a partner in tango that has completely
changed their lives. It's crazy.
CC: One night at Sin Rumbo, Carlitos Petroleo was playing different things,
which were impossible to do, because one's body has its limits. Later we
would go get coffee. And the man would start crying and would tell me he was
angry because tango was disappearing... I don't feel people who come by here
have tango anymore. And I think that is what it is to have tango; that is
the true feeling a tanguero should have. It is the edge.
AM: We always say that we are not the best dancers, but that we think of
ourselves as tango dancers.
CC: There is show, but I want to do art with tango. If you manage to get
the public's applause doing tango, that's good. If you throw your partner in
the air and they applaud, that's bad. Of course you have to embellish it.
The tango I know is embrace, rhythm, compass, and elegance. Portalea used to
tell me: Why do you kick the woman like that? You are hitting tango. And he
was right. These are things that need to be learned, but overall, they have
to be taught.
RT: It takes years of experience to discover these secrets.
CC: Yes, but there are also things that come with one's self. Being
natural, the physical aspects. Our objective in '89 was to teach for Tango
Argentino. It happened in 2000. And in Tango Argentino tango is done.
There is a tango climate.
RT: Do you find this abroad?
AM: I believe this is felt in some milongas. Every time they try to do more
tango. In Berlin. In Amsterdam. But sometimes it kills me when there is a
very pretty milonga, there is a tango climate and all of a sudden a woman
approaches a man and asks him to dance. I don't like that.
RT: In some places the inequality in numbers between men and women might
make women who desperately want to practice the steps they learned during
classes approach men directly.
CC: There is something I see in tango festivals. Your feet are like this
from teaching for 16 hours, and at night as a courtesy, you go
to the milonga to drink coffee and be with the people, but you don't feel
like moving too much. In my case I don't like dancing with all the women.
And the women ask you to dance and if you don't accept you seem nasty. I
shouldn't have to be nice if I don't want to dance with the 120 women that
are there... If there is a tango I like, and there is a woman that dances
nicely, I say to Alicia that I am going to dance with Juanita. I danced a
few tanguitos and that's it, I'm dead.
AM: What happens is that here, in BA, the milonguero dances the songs he
likes. He doesn't dance to everything. In general, abroad people dance to
everything. Not only what they really like.
[b]RT: What else do you like doing besides tango?
CC: I feel good when Boca [the soccer team] wins! I am a very big fan and I
am always wearing the Boca t-shirt. To the point where I get very bad if
Boca loses and when they win I feel a big joy. And I think soccer is part of
tango, it is very much connected to tango.
AM: I feel very good being at home and being in Argentina. Before we used
to travel a lot and I would miss it. I feel that everything I love is here.
Even the tango that is abroad is not the same. People welcome us very well,
but here is where I feel truly well, and here is where I want to be.
RT: How did you begin dancing together when you met?
CC: I'll tell you because I think I was the promoter of the meeting
(laughs). A friend, 'Coquito,' brought me there. And I arrived there because
rock was already ending, so I thought I have to go to the milongas too. And
I arrived and saw her, in a yellow dress, which I still remember, and I said:
"I want to dance with that brunette." And all the other guys were dancing
with her all the time. One would leave her and another one would grab her.
So I thought, I am going to buy a coke and I'll face her when she sits down.
So I asked her, "Do you want a bit of Coke?" And she said: "Oh, yes, because
I've been dancing a lot." And I told her, "Later can you help me to dance?"
(that was the line). And we began chatting. And then we were leaving
together.
AM: We were three (laughs).
CC: Oh, yes, my friend Julio who was also going that way.
AM: I would dance a little bit with his friend and a little bit with him.
CC: And the worse is that my friend danced better than me, I wanted to kill
myself.
AM: And we would end there and continue practicing until late at home.
CC: We were crazy about tango, we would stay until very late.
AM: He even had an old truck and at the end of the practicas he would offer
to drive, but then we had to push the truck for it to start (laughs).
CC: There are things that some would suffer with, but not me. It was part
of life. My mom died a bit over one year ago, and then you suffer, you're
bad, there's nothing you can do. There are times when I'm going to my dad's
home and I think my mom would be there, and it's like things happen to you.
But other things I take the way they are. You are in charge of what you have
and of who you are and that's it. Imagine that when I began with tango, I
used to buy vegetables in the market of Carupá. And at night I would do tango
and it wouldn't bother me. I remember the first time we were at the Coliseo
Theater, the car Fiat Duna was introduced, we did a show that night, which
was brought by [Héctor] Mayoral, and that's when I understood the change. At
night I was wearing a black tuxedo, all neat, hair full of gel, and at 3 I
was at the Carupá Market carrying lettuce and potatoes into the trucks. And
I suffered during that change. And I thought, "Brother how badly I want to
change this because I can't stand it anymore." After going from 3 or 4 am
until 7pm loading trucks, since I had lettuces afterwards I would go sell in
the streets and those sorts of things. I did it to have extra coins to take
more classes. But instead of thinking "Gosh, I suffered," I think: "It's
part of life."
RT: You can be seen every night at the show of "Esquina Carlos Gardel." How
did this opportunity come about?
CC: We were ready to go to the US, to L.A., and one morning Juan [Fabbri]
calls and tells me, "Why don't you come over? I'd like to speak to you about
a few things." The next night he told me he had a project that he wanted me
and Alicia to be a part of. At that time I hadn't heard of that place yet.
So I mentioned to Alicia, "Look, there's this guy [referring to Fabbri] who
is constantly doing things, good, bad, regular, but he does them. Even if it
doesn't turn out right, he continues doing it." So I said, "Let's give it a
shot, maybe something good will come out," and she said, "OK, if you want."
So when I told Juan yes, he asked me what we needed, and I told him to
rehearse, and if possible beginning yesterday.
AM: And we did not know the place and we did not know Juan. We knew him by
name, but had never worked with him, same thing with Dolores [de Amo, wife of
Juan Fabbri and Artistic Director of the show "Esquina Carlos Gardel"].
CC: And, I am not saying this to be nice, but with Dolores and Juan we don't
get along well, but very well! And with "La Esquina..." itself is superb! Our
experience has been excellent. We really enjoy this work. The house is
working very well, and we were talking that next year we might easily have to
do two shows per night. Yesterday it was full, same thing today, and the
same thing tomorrow. And you can work in a very relaxed atmosphere. With
Dolores, the artistic director, you can exchange ideas.
RT: Carlos was telling us before about his dreams to be in "Tango
Argentino." Did you share the dream?
AM: Yes, at the time I wanted that too. First of all because we have done
lots of things in tango and that is what we were missing. Also we had worked
in different shows with all the people who were in 'Tango Argentino.' And we
had seen the show, and heard good things about Claudio [Segovia], and it was
that thing, of wanting to be there. In fact it was something very important,
because although it's no longer playing, it was the most important tango
show. I really like working with Claudio Segovia, I like him as a director,
as a creative person, the way in which he works. It's very nice what you
feel when you are inside that show.
RT: Do you have future projects?
CC: We don't want to aim at the show thing. Our idea today is to take tango
with much more seriousness than the one that it's being given to it. We are
writing scripts, we want to do videos with the history of tango, with very
serious things inside tango. We want to document works. We don't want to
stay with the history of the shows and nothing else. We don't know if we'll
be able to do it because it is complex, especially given the Argentine
economic situation. But we do know that's what we want. Shows, we have
already been in all, we can't pretend more, that's why we want to do other
things.
RT: Speaking of videos, that video "Tango, The Obsession" is also going
around.CC: That came about because our friend Adam Boucher, who is the producer,
had to do a documentary for the University of San Diego, and his mother told
him, "Why don't you make a tango documentary?" So he made a documentary with
us and we ended up winning the Video Festival in San Diego. So I told him,
"Let's do a serious documentary!" I gave him some ideas, looked for all the
music, and collaborated on several things. And we began there, until we made
it. Parallel to this we were doing videos with lessons. And all these with
a 28-year old, Adam, who is a tanguero, he is not milonguero, but he is very
much a tanguero. Which is very different. He likes tango, he likes to
listen to it, he doesn't like dancing it, just taking coffee or a friend, and
listening to tangos. That's how it was made, we edited it, argued a lot, and
I think I saw it well. I am not sure if there is something still missing,
but if there are any errors there would be mostly from our inexperience,
because it is not the same to dance a tango as it is to do a tango video.
It's absolutely different.
RT: And now you also teach lessons in a totally different place, which is
the Abasto Shopping area.
CC: Yes. Now we are teaching on Tuesdays at the Abasto, in the Plaza del
Zorzal. It came about because even though the Abasto is a tango
neighborhood, the shopping mall has nothing to do with tango. It was a pity!
So we presented a project to offer free lessons once a week. And thank God,
a beautiful atmosphere is created, since we have children who are four or
five years old taking classes. We separate them in groups. There are those
who do not know anything, those who know a little bit, and the then there are
the women who are by themselves, etc. But what's good is that everybody gets
into it. It's a very good idea, and a very nice project.
AM: For instance, you have the smallest kids who come all confident and tell
you, "Hey, I already know the basic step!" It's great! And obviously we do
not expect people to learn how to dance in a month, which is how long this
project is, but perhaps to awaken a curiosity that will continue. If one
thinks about tomorrow, or the day after, one may never start. However, if
you're walking by the mall, and you see a class, you may get into it.
RT: Who are your favorite singers, orchestras, and/or tangos?
CC: For me after Gardel, comes Berón. That's it. They are all very good,
but for me the one that moves something inside of me that really touches me,
is Raúl Berón. With any orchestras, with Troilo, Demare, Caló, with
whomever. Raúl drives me crazy.
AM: I also love Berón. And after him, Goyeneche. "El Polaco" [Goyeneche's
nickname] is great!
RT: Is there a question we didn't ask you would have liked us to?
CC: No, we simply want to thank ReporTango for remembering us, and to thank
you especially because if you remember us it's because we are doing something
for tango. We also want to say to all the people abroad, it doesn't matter
whether they are young or old, dance tango, dance the true tango, and dance
it with the heart!
ReporTango, The Tango Magazine
PO Box 8122
JAF Station
New York, NY
10116-8122
www.reportango.com
reportango@reportango.com
(courtesy of Reportango, the Tango Magazine (http://www.reportango.com))
Not unlike the first dance steps of many colleagues, those of Alicia Monti
were of ballet. One day she asked a dancer where she could learn tango. The
answer was never formally given. So Alicia began looking on her own, and
after asking around she arrived at the legendary salon at 1331 Canning Street
(although the street had been renamed many years before to Scalabrini Ortíz,
nobody will ever recognize going to dance at any other dance hall in that
neighborhood than the one on Canning Street). There was Miguel Balmaceda and
Nelly, her first teachers. And there she also learned of a whole new world,
a night world she was not familiar with, a very dramatic change, as Alicia
herself points out. He was coming precisely from that mysterious sub-world
of the night. Carlos Copello was a night man by choice. He had been dancing
rock since he was twenty, and he thought he was a very good dancer.
Nevertheless today he says "I realize I was rude, since I watch videos of all
these people who made that culture and I realize they were truly great." He
came to tango almost by chance, through friends (the same ones that danced
rock) with whom, at the end of every night, he would go to an old café were
tangos were played.
RT: What do you remember of those classes at Canning?
Alicia Monti: Miguel was a very demanding teacher. "Girl walk, walk!" he
would say. "Listen to the music," and I felt that I could never go to a
milonga. And the milongueros placed a lot of distance with the students,
also a student would never go to a milonga after two or three classes. I
took classes for about six months before I went to a milonga. I am not sure
if it was out of fear or respect.
RT: And what were you most scared of? To bump against somebody on the dance
floor or the critical look of the milongueros?
AM: Both things. But also a lot of respect, because you saw them dance so
well, and so effortlessly. Also at that time I met Carlos, and as soon as we
met we began dancing together. Practicing. It was good, but, at the same
time, he did not dare go out either. We did not have in our mind to go
quickly to the milonga. We were very critical with ourselves and we thought
we were not ready yet the way we were dancing.
Carlos Copello: I'll be honest, when I first saw tango I thought I could do
that easily! And it wasn't like that...not at all! A month and half later I
wanted to quit because I couldn't even do the basic step. I was a mummy.
And thanks to Alicia who constantly encouraged me to continue, I stayed. I
don't want to lie to you by saying "I danced tango since I was a kid, my dad
danced tango and my grandfather danced tango," but I did not dance as a kid,
everybody says that and they lie. I discovered that tango was something very
complex. To do the step is something simple, but to dance tango, to have
tango is the most difficult thing there is.
RT: What do you mean, "to have" tango?
CC: How can I explain it to you? I mean to have the tango mentality, to live
for tango. Not to think I want to be the most famous. I had a great teacher
who would tell me: To dance simple is the most difficult. And with time I
realized he was right. To do a choreography is easy. You practice it for a
whole year and you learn it. To have tango and to have a certain way of
speaking, of approaching the table, of dressing, of smoking. The tanguero is
as if he would live of memories. He lives of poetry. That is why I feel
that we have an advantage over foreigners. As we were talking with Raul
Beron, there are times in your life when you have gone through that
experience. So it is as if the feeling is reawakened. Unfortunately
foreigners don't usually get the poetry that is meant. That is why the
tanguero "has" tango.
RT: So you think it is necessary to understand suffering to dance tango?
C: I think suffering is part of life. If you haven't suffered is because
you have never lived in this planet. There are sufferings and there are
sufferings. In my case I was raised in poverty and you have to know how to
be poor.
AM: I don't think it has to do with suffering all the time. What happens is
that you mature and what happens with tango lyrics is that at some point in
life something happened to you that made you change and mature and you feel
things similar to that in tango lyrics. Tango speaks about everything.
CC: To give you an example with Raul Berón, who is my idol, there is a tango
that says: "Corazon no le hagas caso, ni te amargues por su ausencia...."
["Heart don't pay attention, or anguish yourself for her absence" He is not
talking to a woman, he is speaking to his heart, and you yourself pass this
on to your heart, this it to have tango. And that's what happens to me with
swing or rock. I would love to know what the lyrics say. To dance tango
well is not to dance a tanguito. There are people who are not conscious that
to dance tango well is to belong to a very important culture. There are
things a teacher cannot teach you: the night experience, to talk to somebody,
to drink a coffee. In my case I don't know how many nights I spent with Pepe
Avellaneda talking. That guy was a piece of tango! I would say to him:
"Pepe you have to teach me." And he would say: "What am I going to teach
you? Stop bugging me." And I would take Alicia to Pepe's school and I would
dance there. And he wasn't somebody technical who would tell you do 1, 2... he
would say dance, dance. I would dance with him, and that "dance" scream will
make you dance.
AM: We've been dancing together for 15 years as a couple and we had tough
times, times when we fought a lot and we mature and even tango helped us a
lot.
CC: I feel very bad about so many great tango couples that separated. In
our case we fought for an objective. When I met her, I told her: "I'm going
to take you to the best stages in the world, but we have to work." And we
practiced like beasts. And argue, we'll always argue. But we shouldn't get
angry. Let the fight be the argument but let's not live angry. Of all that
we planned we have probably done 50 or 70% but thank God we still have the
same objective. Working, practicing, and I believe our goal is to be part of
the history of tango, beyond going to Broadway or Tokyo, is to remain in
tango. So when we are no longer alive, somebody will say: "Man, el Negro
Copelo and Alicia danced very well." That's what we want for our own work.
That is the biggest fortune that tango can bring, although I live of tango,
tango changed my life, because I was coming from a very tough life. And I
think we are doing well, and we'll continue together...we are not going to
fight now.
RT: We wouldn't want to be witnesses to that....
CC: No, that's right... (laughs)
RT: I believe you are going down this road of being part of the history of
tango. One sees images of tango or Buenos Aires outside of Argentina and it
is almost always your picture. There is a prestige you have managed to
accumulate throughout the years, don't you think?
CC: Yes, one knows the background work one has done. And it bothers me lot
(and I'm not talking specifically about me, I'm talking about everybody from
Petroleo on) to all be stuck in the same bag. People forget and the new
generations don't value things as much. There has to be more respect.
AM: It is like that thing people say, that there are necessary evils. In
this case you want tango to be better known everywhere and because of that
they often learn superficially, a bit from everybody, and sometimes without
the proper respect. When we went to San Francisco and they talked to us
negatively about Copes, with an ease and shamelessness... just a kid who began
yesterday and who can't do two impressive figures.
CC: That's why I think there is lack of respect for the culture. Shows, for
instance... there are people who mixed up the shows a lot with the milonga and
those are two things that have nothing alike. The show is one thing and the
milonga is another. The same thing with the different types of tango. There
are people who cannot distinguish a tango, from a milonga, from a waltz. It
is as if they were taught all together. A tango from the 1930s and one of
the 1950s, no difference. I think we, as teachers, must teach them that. Of
course, maybe they spend two pesos with a random person who doesn't bother to
tell them that. But it isn't the same, because there are folks who know
about tango and there are folks who don't.
RT: Did any of you have any family members who danced tango?
AM: No. My dad liked to listened to tango, and watched "Grandes Valores del
Tango" [a TV show], but he didn't dance.
CC: I found out later, but my family is from Santiago del Estero. And they
played music, they learned by ear, they did Malabo, and my dad used to
organized dances where he played folklore and some tango. Musicians, and
singers used to come.
AM: I used to watch what my dad on TV, and when I went to study tango with
Miguel to the milonga I saw that they taught a totally different kind of
tango. And so I began discovering what tango was, and I am still studying
and learning.
CC: The other day we had a class with Julio Balmaceda, the son of Miguel, we
took classes with Hector & Patricia, Petaca. We are always researching and we
always discover things we did not know. I also wanted to look into taking
classes with Copes. Because although they might do steps we already know, to
see the way in which they teach, to know what they do that goes beyond the
steps.
RT: At your level what more can you learn of tango?
CC: Well, discover more tango. I thing there's more tango, much more. For
instance, the other day, talking to musicians they tell me this and that
about Rovira. And I had never listened to anything by Rovira. And they lent
me a tape and when I began listening to it, I went crazy. He was a musical
genius! People abroad don't know Rovira. And that's how you keep on learning
things. You discover more of the essence of tango. I think that is what
interests us. The essence of tango, and to be able to translate that essence
on stage.
RT: Can you define that essence?
CC: I'll give you names: I used to go to Sunderland [a milonga] and I met
the Chelo Perico. And I said Wow!!! He is not a guy who does great little
figures, but he has a quality, a walk, a body posture, a way of moving, of
seating, of talking. A bad man's face that after talking for a few minutes
begins to seduce you. All that is enclosed in the essence of tango as well.
Also, being a companion, respecting a friend, respecting the woman. It's a
way of life. I always say that to be a tanguero you have to become
tango-sick.
RT: And how's your level of sickness? (laughs)
CC: My level is bad...(laughs) I think it's critical. To give you an example,
my car radio is on 92.7 [The tango radio La 2x4 FM] and I want to keep on
discovering things.
AM: It's the same for me. I think every time it gets worse. And I see it
in other people. They begin to see what it is about, and there are people
who have separated, who have found a partner in tango that has completely
changed their lives. It's crazy.
CC: One night at Sin Rumbo, Carlitos Petroleo was playing different things,
which were impossible to do, because one's body has its limits. Later we
would go get coffee. And the man would start crying and would tell me he was
angry because tango was disappearing... I don't feel people who come by here
have tango anymore. And I think that is what it is to have tango; that is
the true feeling a tanguero should have. It is the edge.
AM: We always say that we are not the best dancers, but that we think of
ourselves as tango dancers.
CC: There is show, but I want to do art with tango. If you manage to get
the public's applause doing tango, that's good. If you throw your partner in
the air and they applaud, that's bad. Of course you have to embellish it.
The tango I know is embrace, rhythm, compass, and elegance. Portalea used to
tell me: Why do you kick the woman like that? You are hitting tango. And he
was right. These are things that need to be learned, but overall, they have
to be taught.
RT: It takes years of experience to discover these secrets.
CC: Yes, but there are also things that come with one's self. Being
natural, the physical aspects. Our objective in '89 was to teach for Tango
Argentino. It happened in 2000. And in Tango Argentino tango is done.
There is a tango climate.
RT: Do you find this abroad?
AM: I believe this is felt in some milongas. Every time they try to do more
tango. In Berlin. In Amsterdam. But sometimes it kills me when there is a
very pretty milonga, there is a tango climate and all of a sudden a woman
approaches a man and asks him to dance. I don't like that.
RT: In some places the inequality in numbers between men and women might
make women who desperately want to practice the steps they learned during
classes approach men directly.
CC: There is something I see in tango festivals. Your feet are like this
from teaching for 16 hours, and at night as a courtesy, you go
to the milonga to drink coffee and be with the people, but you don't feel
like moving too much. In my case I don't like dancing with all the women.
And the women ask you to dance and if you don't accept you seem nasty. I
shouldn't have to be nice if I don't want to dance with the 120 women that
are there... If there is a tango I like, and there is a woman that dances
nicely, I say to Alicia that I am going to dance with Juanita. I danced a
few tanguitos and that's it, I'm dead.
AM: What happens is that here, in BA, the milonguero dances the songs he
likes. He doesn't dance to everything. In general, abroad people dance to
everything. Not only what they really like.
[b]RT: What else do you like doing besides tango?
CC: I feel good when Boca [the soccer team] wins! I am a very big fan and I
am always wearing the Boca t-shirt. To the point where I get very bad if
Boca loses and when they win I feel a big joy. And I think soccer is part of
tango, it is very much connected to tango.
AM: I feel very good being at home and being in Argentina. Before we used
to travel a lot and I would miss it. I feel that everything I love is here.
Even the tango that is abroad is not the same. People welcome us very well,
but here is where I feel truly well, and here is where I want to be.
RT: How did you begin dancing together when you met?
CC: I'll tell you because I think I was the promoter of the meeting
(laughs). A friend, 'Coquito,' brought me there. And I arrived there because
rock was already ending, so I thought I have to go to the milongas too. And
I arrived and saw her, in a yellow dress, which I still remember, and I said:
"I want to dance with that brunette." And all the other guys were dancing
with her all the time. One would leave her and another one would grab her.
So I thought, I am going to buy a coke and I'll face her when she sits down.
So I asked her, "Do you want a bit of Coke?" And she said: "Oh, yes, because
I've been dancing a lot." And I told her, "Later can you help me to dance?"
(that was the line). And we began chatting. And then we were leaving
together.
AM: We were three (laughs).
CC: Oh, yes, my friend Julio who was also going that way.
AM: I would dance a little bit with his friend and a little bit with him.
CC: And the worse is that my friend danced better than me, I wanted to kill
myself.
AM: And we would end there and continue practicing until late at home.
CC: We were crazy about tango, we would stay until very late.
AM: He even had an old truck and at the end of the practicas he would offer
to drive, but then we had to push the truck for it to start (laughs).
CC: There are things that some would suffer with, but not me. It was part
of life. My mom died a bit over one year ago, and then you suffer, you're
bad, there's nothing you can do. There are times when I'm going to my dad's
home and I think my mom would be there, and it's like things happen to you.
But other things I take the way they are. You are in charge of what you have
and of who you are and that's it. Imagine that when I began with tango, I
used to buy vegetables in the market of Carupá. And at night I would do tango
and it wouldn't bother me. I remember the first time we were at the Coliseo
Theater, the car Fiat Duna was introduced, we did a show that night, which
was brought by [Héctor] Mayoral, and that's when I understood the change. At
night I was wearing a black tuxedo, all neat, hair full of gel, and at 3 I
was at the Carupá Market carrying lettuce and potatoes into the trucks. And
I suffered during that change. And I thought, "Brother how badly I want to
change this because I can't stand it anymore." After going from 3 or 4 am
until 7pm loading trucks, since I had lettuces afterwards I would go sell in
the streets and those sorts of things. I did it to have extra coins to take
more classes. But instead of thinking "Gosh, I suffered," I think: "It's
part of life."
RT: You can be seen every night at the show of "Esquina Carlos Gardel." How
did this opportunity come about?
CC: We were ready to go to the US, to L.A., and one morning Juan [Fabbri]
calls and tells me, "Why don't you come over? I'd like to speak to you about
a few things." The next night he told me he had a project that he wanted me
and Alicia to be a part of. At that time I hadn't heard of that place yet.
So I mentioned to Alicia, "Look, there's this guy [referring to Fabbri] who
is constantly doing things, good, bad, regular, but he does them. Even if it
doesn't turn out right, he continues doing it." So I said, "Let's give it a
shot, maybe something good will come out," and she said, "OK, if you want."
So when I told Juan yes, he asked me what we needed, and I told him to
rehearse, and if possible beginning yesterday.
AM: And we did not know the place and we did not know Juan. We knew him by
name, but had never worked with him, same thing with Dolores [de Amo, wife of
Juan Fabbri and Artistic Director of the show "Esquina Carlos Gardel"].
CC: And, I am not saying this to be nice, but with Dolores and Juan we don't
get along well, but very well! And with "La Esquina..." itself is superb! Our
experience has been excellent. We really enjoy this work. The house is
working very well, and we were talking that next year we might easily have to
do two shows per night. Yesterday it was full, same thing today, and the
same thing tomorrow. And you can work in a very relaxed atmosphere. With
Dolores, the artistic director, you can exchange ideas.
RT: Carlos was telling us before about his dreams to be in "Tango
Argentino." Did you share the dream?
AM: Yes, at the time I wanted that too. First of all because we have done
lots of things in tango and that is what we were missing. Also we had worked
in different shows with all the people who were in 'Tango Argentino.' And we
had seen the show, and heard good things about Claudio [Segovia], and it was
that thing, of wanting to be there. In fact it was something very important,
because although it's no longer playing, it was the most important tango
show. I really like working with Claudio Segovia, I like him as a director,
as a creative person, the way in which he works. It's very nice what you
feel when you are inside that show.
RT: Do you have future projects?
CC: We don't want to aim at the show thing. Our idea today is to take tango
with much more seriousness than the one that it's being given to it. We are
writing scripts, we want to do videos with the history of tango, with very
serious things inside tango. We want to document works. We don't want to
stay with the history of the shows and nothing else. We don't know if we'll
be able to do it because it is complex, especially given the Argentine
economic situation. But we do know that's what we want. Shows, we have
already been in all, we can't pretend more, that's why we want to do other
things.
RT: Speaking of videos, that video "Tango, The Obsession" is also going
around.CC: That came about because our friend Adam Boucher, who is the producer,
had to do a documentary for the University of San Diego, and his mother told
him, "Why don't you make a tango documentary?" So he made a documentary with
us and we ended up winning the Video Festival in San Diego. So I told him,
"Let's do a serious documentary!" I gave him some ideas, looked for all the
music, and collaborated on several things. And we began there, until we made
it. Parallel to this we were doing videos with lessons. And all these with
a 28-year old, Adam, who is a tanguero, he is not milonguero, but he is very
much a tanguero. Which is very different. He likes tango, he likes to
listen to it, he doesn't like dancing it, just taking coffee or a friend, and
listening to tangos. That's how it was made, we edited it, argued a lot, and
I think I saw it well. I am not sure if there is something still missing,
but if there are any errors there would be mostly from our inexperience,
because it is not the same to dance a tango as it is to do a tango video.
It's absolutely different.
RT: And now you also teach lessons in a totally different place, which is
the Abasto Shopping area.
CC: Yes. Now we are teaching on Tuesdays at the Abasto, in the Plaza del
Zorzal. It came about because even though the Abasto is a tango
neighborhood, the shopping mall has nothing to do with tango. It was a pity!
So we presented a project to offer free lessons once a week. And thank God,
a beautiful atmosphere is created, since we have children who are four or
five years old taking classes. We separate them in groups. There are those
who do not know anything, those who know a little bit, and the then there are
the women who are by themselves, etc. But what's good is that everybody gets
into it. It's a very good idea, and a very nice project.
AM: For instance, you have the smallest kids who come all confident and tell
you, "Hey, I already know the basic step!" It's great! And obviously we do
not expect people to learn how to dance in a month, which is how long this
project is, but perhaps to awaken a curiosity that will continue. If one
thinks about tomorrow, or the day after, one may never start. However, if
you're walking by the mall, and you see a class, you may get into it.
RT: Who are your favorite singers, orchestras, and/or tangos?
CC: For me after Gardel, comes Berón. That's it. They are all very good,
but for me the one that moves something inside of me that really touches me,
is Raúl Berón. With any orchestras, with Troilo, Demare, Caló, with
whomever. Raúl drives me crazy.
AM: I also love Berón. And after him, Goyeneche. "El Polaco" [Goyeneche's
nickname] is great!
RT: Is there a question we didn't ask you would have liked us to?
CC: No, we simply want to thank ReporTango for remembering us, and to thank
you especially because if you remember us it's because we are doing something
for tango. We also want to say to all the people abroad, it doesn't matter
whether they are young or old, dance tango, dance the true tango, and dance
it with the heart!
ReporTango, The Tango Magazine
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10116-8122
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