Have any of you guys noticed

[Vin]

I have noticed that when leading in salsa I have to lead women in vastly different ways depending on whether they are primarily salsa dancers or ballroom dancers. Women that are primarily salsa dancers I have to lead much lighter than those that are primarily say swing dancers. If I lead the primarily swing dancers in the way that I lead the women from south america they don't read the leads as well. If I lead the women from south america in the way that I lead the women from n. america they feel like a rag doll. It is not a problem after a little while but I would like to be able to get used to my partner more quickly. Has anyone else noticed this. This has lead to problems for me in terms of muscle memory as I like to dance with many different partners, has anyone else had this sort of problem and how did you overcome it?

[youngsta]

It's hard not to notice it since EVERY woman you lead will be different. Usually within the first 30-40 seconds of the song I can tell how I'm gonna have to adjust my lead for the best connection. All I can say is dance with as many women as possible! That's really the only solution I know.

[borikensalsero]

I can not speak as how it feels leading a woman in swing as opposed to salsa, since I don't dance swing. But indeed all women feel very distinct when leading them in salsa. Some you have to make them move, and some flow very easily.

I have come to beleive that great following has very little to do with training, nor expirience level. I've danced with season veterans who are a nightmare to lead, and I've also danced with people who know not more than the basic and have followed like a total pro.

The way I overcome such situations is really as youngsta mentions by adjusting to them, only expirience can teach us how to adjust. More force, less force, a longer prep, shorter prep, what she handles best, what not to do, what to do, what songs fit what follower and you best, and so on... And lastly if you can't figure out how to lead a particular person, it might be wise to dance with someone else. It saves us the frustration.

[pygmalion]

Hmm. As a follow who does ballroom and swing and salsa, I guess I should speak up. Not sure how to say this, though. The goal in following each dance is exactly the same -- to provide just enough tone through the arms to create an effective connection. Not too much, just enough. But just enough does differ a bit depending on the dance -- my salsa or hustle or two-step arms are looser than my ballroom arms, are looser than my WCS arms. So I can imagine that a follow who's used to primarily one style of dance might have trouble adjusting to another style. Hmmm. :?

[salsachinita]

Vin, I am so glad you are bring this up.
Guys, I am about to post a new topic to all, plz contribute!

As a follower, I belive we are influenced (more or less) by our experiences/training/cultrual background. How well we respond to the leads (quality of leading techniques aside) depend on how many different partners (fr different styles/schools/nationalities etc) we are exposed to.
For example, if a girl who had been dancing for years with her partner only (say, in a traditional Colombian style) and hardly dance with anyone else, she might not know what to do with the leads from, say an LA stlye leader. This, I call it 'comfort zone' factor.

Borikensalsero said:I have come to beleive that great following has very little to do with training, nor expirience level. I've danced with season veterans who are a nightmare to lead, and I've also danced with people who know not more than the basic and have followed like a total pro.

'Comfort Zone' factor aside, how WILLING the girls are to be lead can make a huge difference. The veteran dancer might want to do her own things rather than being lead into a different style. Yet ppl who knew basics are generally happy to be 'shown' new things thus they can be more open to different leads.

I was reading one of the older topics 'Lead/Follow Ratio at Dances' under 'General Dance Discussion'. have a read, Vin. Some of the things are quite relevant. :wink:

[Pukpik]

As a follower, I belive we are influenced (more or less) by our experiences/training/cultrual background. How well we respond to the leads (quality of leading techniques aside) depend on how many different partners (fr different styles/schools/nationalities etc) we are exposed to.
For example, if a girl who had been dancing for years with her partner only (say, in a traditional Colombian style) and hardly dance with anyone else, she might not know what to do with the leads from, say an LA stlye leader. This, I call it 'comfort zone' factor.


I absolutely agree with salsachinita on this topic. Followers are absorbed through their experiences/training/cultural background and portray all of it through their dance.

All dancers are walking displays of their past training and experiences. They are "active agents" in taking all of whatever they have absorbed in life and using it on the dance floor- muscle memory, self-image (styling flamboyantly or being discreet), ability, etc. Dancing with someone else who has a completely different style is a clash of kinesthetic, bodily culture. A body has a kinesthetic culture of its own when it has been honed and exposed only to a particular style of dance. Its muscle memory is attuned to only that style, the other bodies it has danced with also imitate that style ("comfort zone" coined by salsachinita), motorskills are attuned to the style, etc. Overall the body absorbs, imitates, and becomes accustomed to that particular method of dance.

However, when confronted with another body with a "bodily culture" of its own, culture shock ensues. The taken-for-granted "comfort zone" is out the window, as two bodies try to explore unchartered territory during a 3 minute dance. The leads will think, "Wow, she feels different to dance with.", "Why didn't she turn when I <<insert move here>>?", "Hmm, this is a different style to dance with. I'll just try to adapt instead." All of this goes on in the lead's mind while the follower is thinking, "Wow, I've never dance with anyone like this before", "Was he trying to get me to turn when he <<insert move here>>?", "Agh! What's he trying to make me do? I can't read him!!"

From a follower's perspective, trying to read a new lead for the first time is quite stressful. From the leader's perspective, trying to make anything work and hoping that the follower gets it is challenging and at times frustrating. All of these things can make or break a 3 minute dance.

On a lighter note, that situation is just a worse case scenario. Dancing with a new style can be exciting, stimulating, and have a person coming back for more of a "bodily culture" s/he has never felt before.

Thank you, Salsachinita, for hatching this topic. I've never thought of dancing like this before :D

[Disclaimer: I placed the follower as female and leader as male to create a run-of-the-mill example to prove a point. I lead and follow myself and usually leave the genders of each unstated in normal discussion.]

[salsachinita]

Thank you, Salsachinita, for hatching this topic. I've never thought of dancing like this before :D

[Disclaimer: I placed the follower as female and leader as male to create a run-of-the-mill example to prove a point. I lead and follow myself and usually leave the genders of each unstated in normal discussion.]

You are VERY welcome! :D I agree totally about your post.......couldn't say it better myself!
:notworth: :notworth: :notworth:
The 'muscle memory' is something I've come acrossed years ago as a newbie. It was the single most important factor (for me) in my learning curve. Being a slow learner, I had a lot of trouble learning with my brain (as other students seemed to do) :oops: but found that giving time, my muscles 'knew' what to do when the music started and a lead was presented to me. :bouncy:

I used to think I was NUTS :shock: until this theory gets (officially!)mentioned here in this forum in several topics!

Thanks, Pukpik, for putting my thoughts into a concise statement.
Welcome to the forum. Look forward to read more great posts! :wink:

[SDsalsaguy]

Well said Pukpik... and a great explication of some of the dynamics under-girding such statements as, "well, they're a great dancer but we just didn't seem mach," or "wow, did we click!"

...and this situation is all the more so the case then when dealing with such distinct bodily discourses as ballroom and salsa such as Vin first mentioned.

[HothouseSalsero]

Definitely, there are big variations from partner to partner. Overall I think I like the light touch of many Latina dancers (as well as some other regular salsa dancers who aren't Latina). Sometimes I can't lead certain moves with partners who have minimal tension in their arms, but I still kind of like that feel. I suppose the ideal follower would have very little tension, but would quickly respond with additional tension, when it was needed. I guess that would be in response to the lead suddenly using more force.

I don't expect my partner to be an ideal partner though, especially since I am not an ideal lead.

[Pacion]

The follower also has to adapt to the lead :?

I started out with cuban salsa and was used to a heavyish lead from the guy. Progressed to LA/NY and when I danced with one particular UK teacher, I was all over the place, as I was not feeling his lead. I have since danced with guys with a very light lead (including Frankie Martinez :!: who I hear, many guys aspire to lead like him :wink: Maybe this is where the men dancing as a follower will be very handy - to feel for themselves a lead that is pure silk :banana:)

Was recently dancing cuban with a guy who had a very heavy lead (lots of pulling and twisting) and I had to keep telling him, less force, less force :oops: so I am probably more use to a lighter lead :?

[Vin]

Wow it's been a while since I posted this. I still have some problems with certain women. But I am quicker to adjust nowadays.
The advice I would have given myself now is saying have both momentum based and inline moves in you repertoire. If on the first right hand turn the girl is not turning then do a momentum based turn(but lightly) just step back with your left and that will give you all the momentum you need,

[salsachinita]

so I am probably more use to a lighter lead :?

...........I think I'm heading that way myself. While I absolutely adore dancing with Cubans (and I havn't yet met any heavy-handed-to-the-point-of-being-uncomfortable ones :D ), a follower can feel like she's being pushed/pulled.......it's more of the nature of the style rather than the leads per se, methinks :? .

Having said that, I believe there's a fineline at work here. I'm used to dancing with Cuban instructors/pros........I do find their students are very prone to doing a fair bit of pushing/pulling :( , which I think may have resulted from watching their teachers at play (which can come acrossed as overly physical) & trying to imitate without understanding the subtlties (nor having the correct techniques).

I also find that while L.A. isn't my familiar style, I can follow the dancers who lead (instead of the ones that needs me to know my part :roll: ). I used to think it was all my fault until I realised that I can follow Luis Vasquez just fine, as if I was dancing with any of my latino bros :bouncy: !

There & then it dawned on me: That was it??!! What was the big deal?

Something I wrote here was also relevant: http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?p=68701&highlight=#68701. Sorry to quote myself :oops: ......I just don't think I should post the same thing twice :oops: .....

[tj]

I also find that while L.A. isn't my familiar style, I can follow the dancers who lead (instead of the ones that needs me to know my part :roll: ). I used to think it was all my fault until I realised that I can follow Luis Vasquez just fine, as if I was dancing with any of my latino bros :bouncy: !

There & then it dawned on me: That was it??!! What was the big deal?



Ooo, does that mean we get to bring more "Air" (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=3366&highlight=element) into our dancin' w/you, SC?

[Suaveson]

I have come to beleive that great following has very little to do with training, nor expirience level. I've danced with season veterans who are a nightmare to lead, and I've also danced with people who know not more than the basic and have followed like a total pro.

The way I overcome such situations is really as youngsta mentions by adjusting to them, only expirience can teach us how to adjust. More force, less force, a longer prep, shorter prep, what she handles best, what not to do, what to do, what songs fit what follower and you best, and so on... And lastly if you can't figure out how to lead a particular person, it might be wise to dance with someone else. It saves us the frustration.

So true
I have danced with older, younger, shorter, taller, fatter and skinnier women and you have to kind of test the waters before you go deep. Start with the basics, followed by medium and advanced type stuff - Leave em wanting more. Everyone is different in their own little way.

[rails]

Being a slow learner, I had a lot of trouble learning with my brain (as other students seemed to do) :oops: but found that giving time, my muscles 'knew' what to do when the music started and a lead was presented to me.

Technically speaking though, I would argue that you're still using your brain, just more subconsciously than consciously, i.e. learning intuitively rather than analytically. I don't do very well trying to learn intuitively, myself. A lot of that probably has to do with leading rather than following. In any case, the vast majority of dance skills that I consider myself competent at are a result of conscious analysis and practice. Only after a fair amount of that does it sink into my subsconscious so that I don't have to think (consciously) about it anymore.

It seems to me that a lot of people consider this an inferior way to learn. I don't agree. But anyway, when a follower says my lead felt easy and "natural" I take it that I got to the same place as an intuitive learner, just by a different path. I guess I'm getting off-topic.

[salsachinita]

Technically speaking though, I would argue that you're still using your brain, just more subconsciously than consciously, i.e. learning intuitively rather than analytically.

:idea: I think you are right :idea: !

I don't believe one form (of learning) being more superior than the other....... give me a good lead (great connection & musicality) & I will follow happily 8) ........

[Sagitta]

Ditto!!

[Sagitta]

Tritto! :wink:

[squirrel]

When I learned Salsa, I was told I need light arms and proper tension at the appropriate moments... I mean, no spaghetti arms and no "death grip"... eversince, I've been trying to loosen my arms, which were strong (my personality probably) and I managed (some say) to have light arms... I explain my students all the time they need to give me the correct tension at the right time, so that I can lead (or have the students who lead learn how to do it!)...
Still, when I met someone from Toronto (a good dancer) he told me my arms are too light for him! Imagine my surprise...! And my partner danced with his partner and told me afterwards that she was so hard to lead 'cause her arms were heavy!
I danced with Cuban style leads, some pushed and pulled, others didn't!
I danced with all sorts of leads, and I guess it just depends... on them!
I hate being pushed at and pulled at! So I avoid such leads... :)

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

I prefer women with light arms. If I want to pump iron, I´ll go to the gym... :roll: The heavier her arms are, the more tired I get at the end of the song and the more I sweat! Sadly enough, I even have to abort certain moves when I find her arms are too heavy...

I also don´t like dancing with spagetti arms. It´s like you´re dancing by yourself.... Blah!!

When you dance with a lady with light tension in her arms, it feels great :D I could dance with her the entire night and not get tired. 8)

[Vin]

I think it really depends on the style that the follow dances as well.
For example: Spaghetti arms with a North American style is workable, heavy arms with a cuban or momentum based style is also workable. What I can't wrap myself around is those follows who dance a momentum based style yet offer no resistance in there arms.
I totally prefer the light resistance, when you just think about a move and the subconscious motion in your arms is enough for the follow to know what to do. Ahh perfection.

[Sagitta]

There are heavy follows and light follows, heavy leads and light leads...that cannot change and are simply stuck in a rut. I prefer to give a light lead. Lighter the better. If I have to make my lead heavier I find it sucks the energy of the dance out of me. Sunday night 2 heavy followers at the milonga and I just groaned through those dances. Yesterday night at class some follows just needed a gentle suggestion while others needed heavy-handed placement and movement. :?

[salsachinita]

heavy arms with a cuban or momentum based style is also workable...

Ummm, Cuban style needs spaghetti (read: super relaxed) arms but strong hand connections (NOT death grip!) to be able to get through all the intricate knots :wink: !

The momentums needed here are generated from the core of the body, rather than just the arms.

[Vin]

I can see how you would need spaghetti arms for the intricat arm movements. But how do you know when to turn from open position if there is no resistance in the shoulders?

[salsachinita]

Oh, there's definitely resistence! The fine line is to get the suppleness & firmness to a suitable/workable balance :D !

The follower's frame/stance is also very important. This makes a world of difference for the leads.