boogie woogie, ecs, jive

[luh]

hi
I've never been really able to figure out the difference between bw and jive. They also seem to have a huge similarity to ECS. I'm curious, where are the differences, and what the roots of them are.
luh

[d nice]

All three are descendants of lindy hop (as most current swing dances are).

The rhythm, foot placement, and body motion (including lead/follow technique) are all different, but you'd have to see them side by side to really appreciate the differences.

[LindyKeya]

I would say the most apparant observable (i.e., just by watching, for someone without any knowledge of the footwork, technique, etc.) difference between Jive and Boogie Woogie is the bounce. Jive bounces up, while Boogie Woogie is more into the floor. Jive is more like ECS on some sort of drug. Basically the same basic footwork, but with different technique. Boogie Woogie is very different, although it can look similar.

With the basic for each dance -
ECS: Rock Step, triple step, triple step
Jive: Rock Step, triple step, triple step
Boogie Woogie: Rock Step, triple step, triple step (except instead of going straight to the side on the triples, the lead would step left-behind right, right to the r, left to the left, then right-behind left, left to the l, right to the r)

[DancingMommy]

Jive properly danced shouldn't bounce up and down though. It's *supposed* to be more down into the floor (at least according to James/Jaana Kunitz & Corky/Shirley Ballas).

[d nice]

Well not surprisingly enough then most everyone I've seen dances it wrong. I know, what, one person who does it well?

Even then the body action may be even or down, but the appearance of the dance is springy and very up. My impression has always been someone very controlled (the ballroom aspect) who decided to take a handful of amphetamines before stepping out on the floor.

[DancingMommy]

It's hard to dance Jive properly. I think there are a handful of couples who really have the hang of it (including pros). I know I don't. Most people just think they are supposed to hop up and down and call it Jive. We have a video tape of the 1993 Balckpool Congress where this is covered in detail by a top judge and what it is supposed to look like. Very telling.

[d nice]

Course this is what happens when you take a "Street" dance and codify it into a ballroom dance. PEople will often just keep doing it the right-wrong way.

The vintage video I've seen of Jive back at the end of World War II and into the 50's in England was definitely more of an up than a down or even.

*shrug* for me it is just one of those dances that unless you are world class you just look bad doing it. Tragically unhip. Like Boogie Woogie, Double (sometimes called collegiate) shag, or Rock and Roll. Actually no I've seen the world championships in rock and roll both standard and acrobatic and everyone looked a crack-monkey.

My opinions of course which everyone is more than free to disagree with.

[DancingMommy]

Crack monkey... What an image.....

http://us-p.vclart.net/vcl/Artists/Raven-Xavier/Crackmonkey.JPG

http://us-p.vclart.net/vcl/Artists/Raven-Xavier/Crackmonkey.JPG

[LindyKeya]

Most people just think they are supposed to hop up and down and call it Jive.

Actually, most people just think they are supposed to hop up and down and call it swing. Any kind of swing. Especially Lindy Hop. "It's called Lindy Hop right?"

The problem comes because visually, there appears to be a bounce. There even is a bounce. But people interpret a visual bounce as "I need to hop up and down."

(And when I really think about it, I do think of the bounce for Jive as up - not up in a strict sense, but up compared to how far down my bounce for Lindy is. At the same time however, I don't actually bounce up, it's just different than other swing dances. Should it be as down as other types of swing dance? Is there anyone knowledgeable enough in Int'l Jive and Lindy to adequetely answer such a question?)

[DancingMommy]

Int'l Jive is supposed to have a pumping action in the knees that gives the impression of a bounce, but the upper boddy should remain relatively "still". It's not like the whole body goes bob bob bobbing along.

My understanding of Lindy is that it's more smooooth and gliding and the whole body stays "down"...

[luh]

I would say the most apparant observable (i.e., just by watching, for someone without any knowledge of the footwork, technique, etc.) difference between Jive and Boogie Woogie is the bounce. Jive bounces up, while Boogie Woogie is more into the floor. Jive is more like ECS on some sort of drug. Basically the same basic footwork, but with different technique. Boogie Woogie is very different, although it can look similar.

With the basic for each dance -
ECS: Rock Step, triple step, triple step
Jive: Rock Step, triple step, triple step
Boogie Woogie: Rock Step, triple step, triple step (except instead of going straight to the side on the triples, the lead would step left-behind right, right to the r, left to the left, then right-behind left, left to the l, right to the r)

I did learn ECS as rock step, step, step. The way you said it, it sounds more like Jitterbug to me.

for the "hop" in lindy hop. well, people seem to like to show off with knowledge. Just happens to be often wrong. i'm sure most of you know that it is because of the "lindy hops atlantic"-thing.

@d nice. I'd like to see them all properly done, one after each other. But i don't know where.
luh

[d nice]

East Coast Swing is generally considered to be the triple step with step-tap and step and step as being variant footwork.

Jitterbug is a near meaningless term. For all practical purposes it simply means energetic swing dance, since it excludes things like Carolina Shag, Bop, Steppin', and WCS, but includes just about everything else.

[luh]

East Coast Swing is generally considered to be the triple step with step-tap and step and step as being variant footwork.

Jitterbug is a near meaningless term. For all practical purposes it simply means energetic swing dance, since it excludes things like Carolina Shag, Bop, Steppin', and WCS, but includes just about everything else.

thx.
luh

[LindyKeya]

for the "hop" in lindy hop. well, people seem to like to show off with knowledge. Just happens to be often wrong. i'm sure most of you know that it is because of the "lindy hops atlantic"-thing.
luh

Yes, clearly you and I know that. But most people first learn lindy in all sorts of situations, without any context, or history. And that's what they come up with. I've had to disavow more people than I count of this idea.

[luh]

for the "hop" in lindy hop. well, people seem to like to show off with knowledge. Just happens to be often wrong. i'm sure most of you know that it is because of the "lindy hops atlantic"-thing.
luh

Yes, clearly you and I know that. But most people first learn lindy in all sorts of situations, without any context, or history. And that's what they come up with. I've had to disavow more people than I count of this idea.

that's why i always teach history with the dance. Never just dance. People like it. I always get positive comments on that. "You can really live a dance when you know the history", "you can get the real feeling and imagine how it is to be really swinging"
luh