PR Salsa Open Results

[cantdance]

For anybody who happened to be at the San Juan congress last week:

What did you all think of the results of the competition on Saturday? I think the couple from Australia were the crowd favorites.

[Matrix]

a quote from Melissa Fernandez's thoughts as posted on salserosweb.com/wforum:


i just got back from Puerto Rico...did u hear what happened at the competition? DUDE! it was so chaotic! The PR'can couple won again this year but this year it was so obvious that they didn't deserve to win. This AWESOME australian couple should have taken it! The Crowd BOO'ed like no tomorrow. Everyone present stood up and yelled and threw things around. Ahhhh! PR'cans screaming "AUSTARLIA! AUSTRALIA!" when people were coming out of the banquet. I'll tell u all about when i see you.....history was made there. it was like a PREMIER IMPACTO episode....

ok....sorry i got off the subject...he he he...dude, this was super remarkable in the history of competitions. It went against everything competitions stand for....ok ok ok I'll stop. Let put it this way, the bartenders (whom don't dance salsa) were mad that this happened. It claimed it to be an embarrassment. Eddie Torres, Luis Vazquez, Thomas Guerrero, Nelson Flores...all agreed in favor of the australian couple to win. They couldn't believe it...AHHHHHHHHHH

Ok...i'm done

[David]

The Aussie couple (Oli and Luda) are friends of mine. Here are some further details about what happened.:

According to reports and even the PR newspapers, Oliver and Luda were unstoppable! They had the entire crowd roaring even though there were a couple minor 'hitches' which included 'wardrobe failure' and a little fall from which Luda recovered like the true professional she is. Despite their incredible popularity at the event the judges delivered a highly controversial result....

When Oliver and Luda were announced as 3rd place the crowd of 2000 went wild, with some of Salsa’s biggest names going so far as to walk out of the event! When the winning couple was announced the crowd actually booed in disgust, which was something to see as we're talking about a crowd of Puerto Ricans booing Puerto Rican winners! No sooner the event was over than emails from some of the world’s most reputable salsa personalities came streaming through, declaring disgust and disapproval. The cry was...The Aussies have been robbed!

The following is an excerpt of an email directly from Albert Torres who has just returned from the Puerto Rican Congress and wishes to share this news with the Australian Salsa Public. It refers to the results of the recent Puerto Rican Salsa Open Championships held last weekend in which our own Oliver Pineda and Luda Kroiter earned 3rd place. Please pass it on...

"...I need to let you and everyone in Australia know that Oliver & Luda were robbed in PR of the Puerto Rican Open championships. The couple of PR won with the judges but everyone including close to 2,000 in attendance totally booed when they were proclaimed the winners. Imagine 2,000 of your own people booing you in your own country. The reason was that everyone except the judges knew that Oliver & Luda kicked ass.

Please let everyone in Australia know my comments. I was there. I saw it! This will NOT happen with my championships. NO WAY!

(He refers here to the World Salsa Championships in December 2005.The Australian Salsa Championships to take place at Latin Dance Corroboree in Sydney Sept 9 to 11 2005, are a qualifier for this event)

“…I feel really bad for both of them because they think that the Australian Salseros will never believe that they were robbed.... I am here to tell you that they were the best couple of the championships by far. Even though they had an accident where Luda fell in the semi finals they STILL beat everyone. Luda and Oliver looked like true champions. When they took the award for 3rd place, they were very gracious but the crowd went crazy in disgust. This is the true account. Because of this I have made a decision with my Las Vegas partners (World Salsa Championship Committee) that the 1st, 2nd and 3rd place couples of the PR Salsa Open will be invited to compete in the Las Vegas championships in December....In Australia I will personally supervise and judge the contest as I did in Korea. It will be judged by the international dancers at the event and will be fair and transparent....Latin Dance Corroboree is the only official way to come to Vegas. This is the only way to qualify if you want to represent Australia!

The following is an excerpt from Mr. Stacey Lopez – one of Puerto Rico’s leading authorities on Salsa and Cha cha cha:

“……I have to tell you that your fellows Australians were, in my opinion and almost the whole public at the venue, the best couple in the dance competition. In my humble opinion they were outstanding, winners by a classic mile in advantage. But the judges didn't see it that way. But congratulations to all the Australian people for sending such a wonderful representation……”

Needless to say this casts some doubt on the judging process at the World Salsa Open in Puerto Rico. The outrage from well recognized Salsa personalities is abundantly clear. As a result of Albert’s invitation for 1st , 2nd and 3rd placers to be eligible to compete in the World Salsa Championships, it has inadvertently made the Puerto Rican World Salsa Open another qualifier for the World Salsa Championships in Las Vegas in December this year. The organizers in Puerto Rico are in discussions with the World Salsa Championship committee to formalize this process for next year. This would involve the PR organizers adopting the transparent judging guidelines of the WSC. At any rate it is clear that the days of ‘Shonky’ competitions are coming to an end, due to the emergence of the World Salsa Championships.

[SalsaEddy]

I was there and I'm still in Puerto Rico visiting my parents. Anyway, back to the topic...

It was obvious who should have won (AUSTRALIA) but, all week you could smell something was not right and all these last minute changes to benefit someone. Let me explain...

1) Did anyone knew their was going to be a freestyle competition at the finals? Is it written on the website the process of the competition? The answer is "NO". That is not a problem, I actually like that but, they should have told the competitors about it. I'm positively sure that the Puerto Rican couple already knew this ahead of time.

2) They decided at the last minute to add the points from the semi-finals to the finals. To the organizers and judges, with all due respect:

How does the champions from last year (Salomon & Liz) benefit from this last minute process as they were invited to compete in the finals only?

These last minute changes let you know who they wanted to win. That leaves a really bad taste in the mouth of the competitors and it can cause a huge impact next year.

I see the same thing happening at the Mayan too.

Hopefully, we will have one real competition that the politics and favoritism is out the door and the people who win, earn their position out of merit.

We will see!!!

[itorres]

The Aussie couple (Oli and Luda) are friends of mine. Here are some further details about what happened.:


I live in PR and I was there. I felt quite bad. I thought Australia should have won. It wouldn't have hurt so much if a couple not from PR would have won. I felt embarrased.

It was amazing how people lined up all through the night (post Finals and social dance) to congratulate Oli. I did too, that night and on Sunday when I ran into him again. I didn't even dare to ask what he thought. I just congratulated him for a great job and hoped he would come back next year. He was a great sport about the whole thing.

David could you post links to the stuff by Albert Torres and Stacey that you quoted excerpts from so I could see their complete comments?

Thanks.

[itorres]

I was there and I'm still in Puerto Rico visiting my parents. Anyway, back to the topic...
It was obvious who should have won (AUSTRALIA)
I agree. See post above. I forgot to mention the one of the things that put Oli on people's mind (besides that helicopter like spinning lift of Luda with NO HANDS! :shock: ) was the Cha Cha freestyle dance all the semifinalists did while the votes were tallied. He really moved like a champ, improvised and was the first to switch partners on stage. Interesting that he chose the girl from the PR couple...
but, all week you could smell something was not right and all these last minute changes to benefit someone. Let me explain...

1) Did anyone knew their was going to be a freestyle competition at the finals? Is it written on the website the process of the competition? The answer is "NO". That is not a problem, I actually like that but, they should have told the competitors about it. I'm positively sure that the Puerto Rican couple already knew this ahead of time.
The freestyle thing was not on the site, definitely. I guess I'll eventually run into someone on the inside and find out more details about the judging. Now, why do you say the competitors did not know? Did you talk firsthand with any of the finalists?



2) They decided at the last minute to add the points from the semi-finals to the finals. To the organizers and judges, with all due respect:

How does the champions from last year (Salomon & Liz) benefit from this last minute process as they were invited to compete in the finals only?
Definitely what I thought. How are they going to average Liz Lira's scores if they did not perform in the semis. Unless they performed the routine just for the judges to get a score to average (highly doubt it), the score will be based on the finals only. How do you know the average thing was added at the last minute?

If the live music/score average things were not properly communicated to the competitors then she came with a routine to set music and had to fit it into the live music. Which she did. I would have placed her 3rd or 4th. When she came in around 6th I started to see things going wrong...




These last minute changes let you know who they wanted to win. That leaves a really bad taste in the mouth of the competitors and it can cause a huge impact next year.
I feel bad about this stuff. I hope the problems came about due to incompetence of the organizers, rather than intentionally trying to favor a particular couple. There are things that shuld be done to make this a fair competition. Maybe some are already done, but only the organizers and finalists would know for certain what goes on.

I think the main problems were public uncertainty about the judging procedure and surprise at the outcome since there were no preliminary scores. Some things needed:

1. Have all the judging criteria and procedure set in writing and available to the public. Then the public knows and the competitors cannot claim they didn't. Besides categories of things they look at (timing, prescence, choreography), they should add quantification criteria like the percentage of the score each account for, etc.

2. Not change the judges from round to round. The site mentioned that the preliminary rounds could/would be judged by a lesser number of judges than the finals. You need to have the same judges for consistency. I couldn't see the judges reaction at the final, but it seems to me they were dissapointed because they saw it one way but had to carry the burden of the scores form the semis, which may not have been their own. I gather this because the Primera Hora article criticized Albert Torres and Sylvio Gonzalez did not allow the judges to be photographed (presumably because of their disgust with the results after tallying ballots). http://archivo.primerahora.com/archivo.asp?guid=5499BA0D78DA4F639009794BCC663318&keyword

3. The scoring should take the best of the procedures from Ballroom or other sports competitions. Scores should be known by the public round by round (no huge surprises like this, and adds excitement since you know how well somone has to do in order to advance/win). Judges panel should be diverse regarding country/affiliation. I believe they were for the Finals, but I don't remember who they were for the Semis. The paper article quotes Jhesus Aponte saying the Puerto Rican couple was way ahead in the score. I don't see why. The fact that Luda fell on Wednesday hurt them, but PR didn't do _that_ much better.

I see the same thing happening at the Mayan too.

Hopefully, we will have one real competition that the politics and favoritism is out the door and the people who win, earn their position out of merit.

We will see!!!

Let's hope. Let's see how the 1st World Salsa Championships go.[/img]

[itorres]

There's a video with all finals performances (and Intros, Thanks, exhibitions by Eddie Torres, Mambo Legends, award presentations, boo-ing, etc)
There was music overdubbed at the end to drown out the boo-ing.. :)

I don't see a link to it in the Web site but I got it from an article elsewhere.
http://video.puertoricosalsacongress.com/salsa-open-final.wmv

[africana]

it's hard to tell anything meaningful from this video. The quality is poor enough that I don't see what the big deal is, Oli/Ludar don't seem as impressive in this video (compared to the other couples) as they probably did in real life :?

The main problem here is lack of disclosure on so many crucial points (like scoring criteria and weights) to all the different people involved, including the audience

Also notice the two "opposing" couples danced the same song back to back, so maybe the judges fit their score to the who they thought best matched that song, I've seen that happen before with disregard to difficulty levels and such

Anyway I really don't understand why salsa competitions are plagued with these kinds of issues!

[ash88]

Very interesting, very interesting.

I saw the video, but I agree with africana that the quality just isn't quite there to judge the aspects of the dancing that might differentiate the best couples from the bestest.

I also admit that i wouldn't be qualified to do so anyway, since i haven't got the experience, nor am i a qualified judge.

But what i CAN say is that the crowd certainly wanted the Aussie couple to win, and Oliver certainly looked very sharp with his movements (which i personally think looks great, very J Vasquez). Of course, i'm an LA dancer :)

[msjanemas]

I thought Argentina or Spain should of won.

[Pacion]

I thought Argentina or Spain should of won.

:lol:

Oliver certainly looked very sharp with his movements (which i personally think looks great, very J Vasquez). Of course, i'm an LA dancer :)

:lol: Before anyone gets the "wrong idea", seeing as some people think that Johnny Vasquez is so "great an' all", :lol: Oliver was a very good salsa dancer years ago, with years of ballroom/latin dance training therefore, he would have have had sharp and clean dance movements AND great lines long before Johnny started dancing. I think Oliver even competed nationally in Dancesport and had very respectable placings. It has been about five years since I saw Oliver dancing and I expect that in those five years, he has grown tremendously. I think he and Luda have also been dancing competitively for years, both salsa and Latin.

Whether Oliver has done classes with Johnny? I don't know. Some dancers, you can look at and say, yes, they were trained/influenced by [insert name of teacher]. Oliver was already trained that way and quite innovative. He and his dance partner (I believe Luda) also represented Australia in 2001 in Florida at the WSF (?) salsa competition there and without googling it :lol: either they won or placed very high... (I think they won but it was a low key affair as it took place the 1st weekend after 9/11 and it was understandably a mess, for those attending to get to Florida) :D

[SDsalsaguy]

Minor correction: the WSF didn't exist yet just after 9/11. The title they rightly won was the IDO (I'll double check) sanctioned World Salsa Championship.

[Pacion]

Oops sorry. Googled now and found it to be IDO. :D

SD, does IDO still exist?

[Pacion]

I thought Argentina or Spain should of won.

Okay, Msjanemas, I agree with you in that I liked Argentina and Spain - I finally managed to watch the video. That said, I also liked the couples from Philedelphia and Washington! :lol: It was hard to tell, but I have the impression from the video that it appears Oliver may have been (and probably was) dancing with his whole body - his feet were doing one thing, whilst the rest of him was doing something else.

Oh, and am I mistaken? It seems like THREE couples danced to the same song? Hmmm. Why was that song back in the ballot, after being selected the first time round? :roll:

As Africana said, I think the main problem is the lack of disclosure. As itorres said, perhaps to be taken seriously, the scoring from the preliminaires ought to have been made public AND perhaps some of methodology behind how the Dancesport world and even the ice-skating world should be incorporated.

If Jhesus says that the PR couple were "way ahead", what does this say about the other couples' scores from the prelims? In addition, which appears to be unknown, what was the % (or weighting) of the prelim results?

With competitions, there will ALWAYS be controvesy of some kind. However, it is in the handling that thic controvesy can be deflected and it sounds to me that the circumstances surrounding this event were poorly handled irrespective of who was crowned winner. :?

[SDsalsaguy]

Oops sorry. Googled now and found it to be IDO. :D

SD, does IDO still exist?
Yes the IDO does still exist, see here: http://www.ido-online.org/

As far as that particular competition there was no question that the win was easily deserved. Some of the other placements seemed rather surprising to me however.

[itorres]

Oh, and am I mistaken? It seems like THREE couples danced to the same song? Hmmm. Why was that song back in the ballot, after being selected the first time round? :roll:
Since it was a live band there were only 3 songs available for seven couples. I guess they were selected as similar in tempo, length, etc.
In addition, which appears to be unknown, what was the % (or weighting) of the prelim results?

The public was told it was an average, so I assume (A+B) / 2 , so 50% each. (Again, Liz Lira didn't perform a routine in the semis, so not on equal terms)
With competitions, there will ALWAYS be controvesy of some kind. However, it is in the handling that thic controvesy can be deflected and it sounds to me that the circumstances surrounding this event were poorly handled irrespective of who was crowned winner. :?
You're telling me!

I wish the video for the Semis were available. It is definitely an eye opener to review the video. Things don't appear as one remembers. I'd like to review the tape and compare all couple's routines.

After thinking about it, the public liked Oli and Luda also for many non-dancing related reasons. I (and the public) saw their routine twice. They performed on monday's show and the Semis on wednesday. In addition to that, we saw all semifinalists dance on stage for 5-6 minutes while votes were tallied and Oli/Luda were stage front and center and loooked better than the rest IMO - which is not part of the competition scores. I guess ballroom training would make them better prepared at Cha Cha.

Their stage presence was great. Luda looked quite cute and her costumes were great :) In the semis, Luda took a little fall and bounced back to keep dancing and people went wild. Then Oli wears PR initials on his belt and builds the use of a PR flag into the finals. They had us at "hello"! :lol:

[Pacion]

In addition, which appears to be unknown, what was the % (or weighting) of the prelim results?

The public was told it was an average, so I assume (A+B) / 2 , so 50% each. (Again, Liz Lira didn't perform a routine in the semis, so not on equal terms)

That is definitely a "wobbly", unless Liz and Salomon were given an average score? Which is still unfair, however you look at it.

Their stage presence was great.

Oh yes, Oliver has that in abundance! I guess it is a confidence that has come with his years of training and dancing and various projects he has been involved in. I understand that he was involved in the choreography for Moulin Rouge - not sure which parts/elements.

In addition to that, we saw all semifinalists dance on stage for 5-6 minutes while votes were tallied and Oli/Luda were stage front and center and loooked better than the rest IMO - which is not part of the competition scores. I guess ballroom training would make them better prepared at Cha Cha.

Are those 5-6 minutes in the video link here? I can't seem to see it :? and unfortunately if I try to advance/reverse the download, the whole thing restarts :doh (and hearing Albert Torres MCing, over and over, makes me a bit :? :lol: )

They had us at "hello"!

rotfl! :lol:

[itorres]

In addition to that, we saw all semifinalists dance on stage for 5-6 minutes while votes were tallied and Oli/Luda were stage front and center and loooked better than the rest IMO - which is not part of the competition scores. I guess ballroom training would make them better prepared at Cha Cha.

Are those 5-6 minutes in the video link here? I can't seem to see it :? and unfortunately if I try to advance/reverse the download, the whole thing restarts :doh and hearing Albert Torres MCing, over and over, makes me a bit :? :lol: )
No, it was during the tallying from the Semis. That would be the video I wish I could see. It has the routines. I was tempted to mail the organizers and ask them to post it too, but I guess they would think we're trying to audit or re-visit the results.

About the restarting of the video... :idea: On Windows media player you should be able to do File, Save Media as... and save it to your disk to prevent that. :wink:

[David]

David could you post links to the stuff by Albert Torres and Stacey that you quoted excerpts from so I could see their complete comments?

I would if I could Ivan. Those excerpts are from e-mails sent by them to a few people in Aus which were then passes on in the form that I posted. So unfortunately I don't have the rest to be able to post. I understand though that the rest is of a more personal nature.

The title they rightly won was the IDO (I'll double check) sanctioned World Salsa Championship.

Yup... 2001.

Luda looked quite cute and her costumes were great

Now there's and understatement :D :shock:

As Pacion mentioned, Oli (and Luda) have stage presence in abundance. They've both been dancing and performing since they were kids and it shows. Both have the most amazing body movement too... an eerie ability for every different body part to do different things so smoothly and seemlessly that when you see it it looks like the easiest and most natural thing.

[Big10]

After thinking about it, the public liked Oli and Luda also for many non-dancing related reasons. I (and the public) saw their routine twice. They performed on monday's show and the Semis on wednesday. In addition to that, we saw all semifinalists dance on stage for 5-6 minutes while votes were tallied and Oli/Luda were stage front and center and loooked better than the rest IMO - which is not part of the competition scores. I guess ballroom training would make them better prepared at Cha Cha.
I was not in Puerto Rico, but I just spent a chunk of this early evening watching the video. I agree that there had to be some non-competition reasons why the crowd was so strongly for the Australians. Like a few other posters have said, the Australians were not that much better than everybody else. Actually, I think the Argentines were the ones who got cheated! My personal ranking would have been like this:

1. Argentina
2. Puerto Rico
3. Australia

The couple from Australia were definitely "polished" performers, but they performed to the same song as the Puerto Ricans and I thought the Puerto Ricans interpreted the music better. Albert Torres said during the introduction to the competition that substantial portions of the score would be based on music interpretation and improvised dancing -- which the Puerto Rican couple did well.

This whole controversy reminds me of the finals of the ABC television show, "Dancing with the Stars." John O'Hurley had done so well all season (and was arguably a stronger overall dancer) that people were pre-disposed to considering him the winner of the Finals -- but Kelly came up with a performance for that night which was just as good or better than his, so that it wasn't outrageous for her to be declared the "winner" based on the scoring formula.

Just my personal opinion on all of these points.

[Pacion]

Yes, as said, I also liked the Argentines AND Spain. :lol:

[David]

I wasn't at the congress/competition so I really don't know who deserved what. All I've seen is that very poor video clip of the surprise free-style bit tacked on to the end. Cetainly I wouldn't make any call on who deserved what in the competition at large from that clip :!:

Call me crazy but I'll go with the comments from Albert Torres and Stacey Lopez regarding this.

[IsaacAltman]

Let me give an open invitation the WSF World Championships. Competition is one of our strong points as we have rules for judges etc. Salomon and Liz have attended and won and know that we take competition in a World Championship seriously. Anyway, you will have a lot of fun! This is the 3rd year that I have heard that there has been problems with the competition part of the PR congress. Maybe Congressos should stick to what they do best, giving good entertainment, a variety of workshops from great teachers, and a great party atmosphere for its attendees. As some of the organizers are finding, it is not easy running a competition.

[mambochino]

what i love is to read all the comments after a controversial competition

[Pacion]

This is the 3rd year that I have heard that there has been problems with the competition part of the PR congress.

There were problems last year when Liz and Salomon won? :roll: Seeing as this PR congress had a slightly different organising team, I personally would not consider this year's controversey to be a continuation of the previous two years :wink: