Ouch that hurts! & What are you doing back there???

[blossomingsalsadancer]

When I went dancing this weekend, I was puzzled by a couple of moves that one of my partners led me into and was wondering if y’all can shed some light on them.

The first involved hair pulling. I have long hair which refuses to stay put in a neat little bun when I dance so throughout the night, it will be in various states such as loose or hastily pulled into a bun {never in a ponytail because all that gathered hair whipping around with centrifugal force is enough to sideline a man for the night! :( }. I was dancing with my hair down with this one guy because my hair had fallen out of the bun (again) and in the middle of the dance, my head jerked back because my hair was caught in something. I thought at first maybe it had gotten caught on my partner’s watch. However, it happened again 2 more times and I realized he was pulling my hair on purpose to make my head tilt up so that I was looking up at the ceiling! Aside from the fact that it was unusual, I was mad coz it hurt!!! :x Is anyone familiar with this move? What is the purpose of this???

The second move starts out in the position where I am in front of the man and I have my back to him [I’m sure there is a proper salsa/dance term for this of which I’m woefully ignorant]. The move then commences when the man pushes down on my back causing me to bend over. I’ve been led into this move several times by different leads and they usually push down and release/pull up very quickly so that I end up doing what seems like a very quick bow. My partner this weekend however pushed me down and kept me down for a while (at least two 8 counts). When this move went on longer than I was comfortable with, I tried getting up but he just applied more force! Bent down like this, I had no idea what was going on or what he was doing causing me to think to myself “what the hell is he doing back there???” I had no idea what else to do except listen to the music and keep time so that I can at least be on the proper beat when I emerged out of this move. So finally he let me up and we finished dancing. I was too stunned by the hair pulling and this bending down thing to even say anything after the dance. Unfortunately, I was so busy dancing the rest of the night that I didn’t see if he did this with anyone else and if so, to see what the other ladies were doing under these circumstances. Is anyone familiar with this move? What was I supposed to be doing while I was down there? :? Some sort of hip shine or something? Was my dignity just assaulted without my realizing it? Should I make sure to kick this guy’s a@* next time I see him??? :evil:

[africana]

this is why i'll never move to LA
yeah kick his @$$

[diputs]

Should I make sure to kick this guy’s a@* next time I see him??? :evil:

This would be my vote.

[Pebbles]

Should I make sure to kick this guy’s a@* next time I see him??? :evil:

This would be my vote.

Aim high, sounds like his a@* is on top of his shoulders.

[luh]

Should I make sure to kick this guy’s a@* next time I see him??? :evil:

This would be my vote.

I'd say so too.
luh

[alemana]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SDsalsaguy]

Aim high, sounds like his a@* is on top of his shoulders.
I think you're being overly generous! :x :x :x

[blossomingsalsadancer]

Given people's responses, I thought it would be appropriate to add a poll (my very first one!) :)

[tacad]

Well, I voted for kick his a*$!

[alemana]

*breaks out her brown belt*

[africana]

When I went dancing this weekend, I was puzzled by a couple of moves that one of my partners led me into and was wondering if y’all can shed some light on them.

The first involved hair pulling. I have long hair which refuses to stay put in a neat little bun when I dance so throughout the night, it will be in various states such as loose or hastily pulled into a bun {never in a ponytail because all that gathered hair whipping around with centrifugal force is enough to sideline a man for the night! :( }. I was dancing with my hair down with this one guy because my hair had fallen out of the bun (again) and in the middle of the dance, my head jerked back because my hair was caught in something. I thought at first maybe it had gotten caught on my partner’s watch. However, it happened again 2 more times and I realized he was pulling my hair on purpose to make my head tilt up so that I was looking up at the ceiling! Aside from the fact that it was unusual, I was mad coz it hurt!!! :x Is anyone familiar with this move? What is the purpose of this???

The second move starts out in the position where I am in front of the man and I have my back to him [I’m sure there is a proper salsa/dance term for this of which I’m woefully ignorant]. The move then commences when the man pushes down on my back causing me to bend over. I’ve been led into this move several times by different leads and they usually push down and release/pull up very quickly so that I end up doing what seems like a very quick bow. My partner this weekend however pushed me down and kept me down for a while (at least two 8 counts). When this move went on longer than I was comfortable with, I tried getting up but he just applied more force! Bent down like this, I had no idea what was going on or what he was doing causing me to think to myself “what the hell is he doing back there???” I had no idea what else to do except listen to the music and keep time so that I can at least be on the proper beat when I emerged out of this move. So finally he let me up and we finished dancing. I was too stunned by the hair pulling and this bending down thing to even say anything after the dance. Unfortunately, I was so busy dancing the rest of the night that I didn’t see if he did this with anyone else and if so, to see what the other ladies were doing under these circumstances. Is anyone familiar with this move? What was I supposed to be doing while I was down there? :? Some sort of hip shine or something? Was my dignity just assaulted without my realizing it? Should I make sure to kick this guy’s a@* next time I see him??? :evil: read through this again and I'm actually mad at you for letting him execute a second uncomfortable move without saying a thing!

if I don't get something I always ask about it or tell them not to repeat it again

[gte692h]

definitely, he pulled one of those lewd moves I've seen being done. its one of those sleazy things guys do on the floor. I'm sorry it happened - but don't beat yourself up over it. how were you supposed to know ?

now you know. go find a bouncer, and the three of you can have a nice 'talk'

[blossomingsalsadancer]

read through this again and I'm actually mad at you for letting him execute a second uncomfortable move without saying a thing!

if I don't get something I always ask about it or tell them not to repeat it again

Most of the time, when I’ve missed a move a couple of times, I ask the guy afterwards to show me the move slowly. I’ve never had anything similar to the above happen to me in my almost 2 years of dancing and as I said I was too stunned to react. Sorry you’re mad but unfortunately, I don’t have your presence of mind nor your ever-ready pluck. :(

[Sagitta]

read through this again and I'm actually mad at you for letting him execute a second uncomfortable move without saying a thing!

if I don't get something I always ask about it or tell them not to repeat it again

Most of the time, when I’ve missed a move a couple of times, I ask the guy afterwards to show me the move slowly. I’ve never had anything similar to the above happen to me in my almost 2 years of dancing and as I said I was too stunned to react. Sorry you’re mad but unfortunately, I don’t have your presence of mind nor your ever-ready pluck. :( YUp. It is easy to suggest something, but in the heat of the moment a lot of things skip us by.

[africana]

read through this again and I'm actually mad at you for letting him execute a second uncomfortable move without saying a thing!

if I don't get something I always ask about it or tell them not to repeat it again

Most of the time, when I’ve missed a move a couple of times, I ask the guy afterwards to show me the move slowly. I’ve never had anything similar to the above happen to me in my almost 2 years of dancing and as I said I was too stunned to react. Sorry you’re mad but unfortunately, I don’t have your presence of mind nor your ever-ready pluck. :( YUp. It is easy to suggest something, but in the heat of the moment a lot of things skip us by. i just think that silently enduring pain or real discomfort simply enables unwelcome behavior.

the way I see it ther are plenty of other fish in the sea to torture

[kdogg]

If the guy doesn't do a move properly and you feel uncomfortable, it's better to say something to him than get hurt. May be the guy is unaware of what he's doing or may be he's doing it on purpose; you never know what kind of guys there are out there. Some girls are way to polite.

[tacad]

DaSilva taught a move where the guy is behind the girl. It was quite tasteful but about half the women I've tried this on get nervous about it and they just bail. One recently just turned herself around to face me. Another only let her arms be brought up half way. (Now I've stopped doing the move except those who seem up for it.) But I agree. Something needs to be done in some way, shape, or form. Oh well. Next time. (And in the meantime we'll kick his a*&.)

[DeeplyDippy]

Yeah, move 2 is legit but for a much shorter count - it smacks of reggaeton / templeke.

But a definite no-no with strangers :D

[Shooshoo]

And DON'T you dance with him again!!!

[mambonewb]

Blossom - The "moves" you're describing are (IMHO), rude and demeaning to you and any other lady for that matter. Pulling your hair? Smack the guy down! And I see that you were subjected to the "doggie style" move. Another rude move which I'll never use (or learn for that matter). It's beyond me why some folks see it as a "cool" move. When I've seen it executed it's usually quick but still...

One thing I tell my female friends just starting out is that if they ever feel uncomfortable with what a guy is doing during a dance-- be vocal about it. If he keeps insisting, I tell them it's perfectly OK to leave his sorry a@$ on the dance floor.

In Salsa, it's about presenting the lady at her best, making her shine. What you described goes against that.

Take heart-- not every lead in LA does these "moves".

[mambonewb]

DaSilva taught a move where the guy is behind the girl. It was quite tasteful but about half the women I've tried this on get nervous about it and they just bail. One recently just turned herself around to face me. Another only let her arms be brought up half way. (Now I've stopped doing the move except those who seem up for it.) But I agree. Something needs to be done in some way, shape, or form. Oh well. Next time. (And in the meantime we'll kick his a*&.)

If it's tasteful then why did they bail on you during the move?

[cookie]

move 1 is not a legitimate move and you should have left him on the dancefloor after it.

move 2 IS a move but it's not to be done with an unwilling or unsuspecting partner. HOLDING you down is BIG BIG BIG no no - very disrespectful and very demeaning. The way it's MEANT to be done is either a quick bow OR he'd push you forward and you could *choose* to come back up slowly which makes it a very sexual type of move - NOT to be done with someone unwilling.

He didn't just deserve to be left standing on the dancefloor, he deserved the ppublic humiliation of a smack in the chops.

He was just a guy lording it over you on the dancefloor, simulating doggie style which migh be nice for him but unfair on you.

NEVER DANCE WITH HIM AGAIN and advise other girls to stay away. The only way to teach these men who do not understand the difference between dancing and abusing is to boycott. When he runs out of willing dance partner, he'd have to rethink his mindset.

[cookie]

DaSilva taught a move where the guy is behind the girl. It was quite tasteful but about half the women I've tried this on get nervous about it and they just bail. One recently just turned herself around to face me. Another only let her arms be brought up half way. (Now I've stopped doing the move except those who seem up for it.) But I agree. Something needs to be done in some way, shape, or form. Oh well. Next time. (And in the meantime we'll kick his a*&.)

If it's tasteful then why did they bail on you during the move?

good point... what a man considered tasteful might actually be rather unpleasant to a woman.


some moves are quite intimate or make the woman feel rather vulnerable, so you can't blame a girl for bailing on something that makes her feel uncomfortable - the dance is meant to be fun and enjoyable for her too, after all. It's not all about meeting his move's needs but about two people enjoying the dance together.

I won't do what I won't do. Or it might be forced upon me once but I'll refuse to do it again. I'm no prude and am up for most moves but if I feel the guy is taking advantage, then I'm plain not interested. I go out to dance not to feel like a slab of meat.

[Shooshoo]

I agree by telling the other girls. We girls do the same here, so we have the creepy guys labeled and it makes it more difficult for them to get dances.

[tacad]

DaSilva taught a move where the guy is behind the girl. It was quite tasteful but about half the women I've tried this on get nervous about it and they just bail. One recently just turned herself around to face me. Another only let her arms be brought up half way. (Now I've stopped doing the move except those who seem up for it.) But I agree. Something needs to be done in some way, shape, or form. Oh well. Next time. (And in the meantime we'll kick his a*&.)

If it's tasteful then why did they bail on you during the move?
I'll tell you the move and give you my guesses why they bailed. DaSilva actually started this from a hammerlock then moved around behind them, lifted their arms in the air, took hold of their hands and brought them down to shoulder level (actually this is the second way he taught it). Then reached around their stomachs and spun them out. Now I have had a heck of a time doing that from a hammerlock. So I've used a technique I learned from a different instructor where I put my hand on her stomach, them move behind her, then lift her hands in the air, etc. The bailing has happened either before or during the process of the arms getting lifted in the air.

I really do not know why they bailed as I didn't ask. Here's what I've considered. The first way DaSilva taught it (which I don't do) is from their arms in the air you run your hand down along their arm beside their breast and down the waist. Maybe the women are suspecting that I'm going to do that. Another possiblity is that sometimes I don't get it done as fast as I could. If I'm late getting to a certain point (on any move) I'll wait the extra beats to continue rather than rush through. They may wonder what the heck I'm doing back there. Another thing I've wondered about is that they simply may not feel like doing a sexy move. But as I say I haven't asked and these are just guesses.

[MacMoto]

Move 1 is definitely not legit. Hair pulling is bad enough, but jerking someone's head back (whatever the method) is downright DANGEROUS -- you can cause severe injury by doing this. A very loud "OUCH!" is the right response, and if that doesn't draw an apology, then he's a jerk and should be avoided.

Move 2 -- is it legit? :shock: There are many moves involving the guy standing close behind the girl, but making the girl bent over for more than a couple of beats? I don't like the sound of it at all. Fun is fun *only* when there's mutual consent, and forcing a risque move on someone is a definite no no in my book.

[ash88]

I agree by telling the other girls. We girls do the same here, so we have the creepy guys labeled and it makes it more difficult for them to get dances.

In my scene, the guys that are creepy get a well-deserved bad rep and struggle to get dances with regulars. It amazed me when I first realised that salseras actually talk a helluva lot more than i thought about the guys they dance with. Some of the things they say are very instructive:

"When i dance with that guy i feel like he's being arrogant: it's like the dance is all about him. I don't like dancing with him".

"That guy dropped me in a dip. I won't dance with him".

"That guy LOOKS really good but when you dance with him it doesn't FEEL good".

And on and on.

There's nothing wrong with this and in fact it will often work in your favour. Every little courteous thing i do for a follower (like offering to get her a glass of water when i grab one after a dance) makes its way around the grapevine and gets me more dances :D

Honestly, how hard is it to be nice to someone who dances with you?

[tacad]

DaSilva taught a move where the guy is behind the girl. It was quite tasteful but about half the women I've tried this on get nervous about it and they just bail. One recently just turned herself around to face me. Another only let her arms be brought up half way. (Now I've stopped doing the move except those who seem up for it.) But I agree. Something needs to be done in some way, shape, or form. Oh well. Next time. (And in the meantime we'll kick his a*&.)

If it's tasteful then why did they bail on you during the move?

good point... what a man considered tasteful might actually be rather unpleasant to a woman.


some moves are quite intimate or make the woman feel rather vulnerable, so you can't blame a girl for bailing on something that makes her feel uncomfortable - the dance is meant to be fun and enjoyable for her too, after all. It's not all about meeting his move's needs but about two people enjoying the dance together.

I won't do what I won't do. Or it might be forced upon me once but I'll refuse to do it again. I'm no prude and am up for most moves but if I feel the guy is taking advantage, then I'm plain not interested. I go out to dance not to feel like a slab of meat.
I wasn't blaming anybody. Maybe it sounded this way using the words "nervous" and "bail" but I didn't mean it that way. :) A woman is welcome to discontinue a move for whatever reason without any blame from me. Absolutely! I won't force a darn thing. Not once. The dance is definitely about both people enjoying the dance together. :)

[Lofland]

There's a video of social dancing on the Internet from the 2005 L.A. Congress that includes the hair pull and another move where the guy pushes the lady's head down, but not her torso. I will see if I can find the URL and post it here. The couple are obviously advanced dancers and know each other, but I was thinking, "What the heck???" when I first saw it.

Last week, an experienced follower told me that an experienced leader did this move on her where he leaned down and put his head on her upper chest/cleavage and pushed her around with his forhead!!! She knew him well but when it happened the second time she chastised him for it. It was really a surprise because this guy is my friend and normally he's very nice and respectful.

[yola]

:evil: :evil: :evil:
i think: dancing is supposed to be fun for 2. so: anytime you don't feel comfortable with a move, it isn't legit, not for you and that's what counts!

the way you react may depend on the man you're dancing with.. if he's a fun/nice person otherwise, you can simply explain to him that you don't like it. Some guys just don't realise what they're doing, and simply execute patterns that they learned/saw somewhere. Sometimes when they don't understand why i don't like the pattern, i simply show it to them (i lead, they follow....) and THEN they understand!!

THIS GUY HOWEVER deserves to be kicked in the b*tt or someplace else i can think of where it really, REALLY hurts..!!
DEMEANING, DISRESPECTFULL, just a few words to describe..

don't you ever dance with him again and warn your friends. Maybe tell some trusted male dancebuddys of yours too. Men have their ways to deal with eachother as well....

btw: some guy once pulled trick nr 2 on me (the quick version)... unsuspected, the first dance we ever did. i didn't know what was happening, so down i went unstruggling.
So, the moment i saw my chance i took my revenge by kicking him (mockingly) in the butt, during the dance... my revenge was sweet coz the bystanders saw it and laughed, and immediately were on my side, so to speek. and he could do nothing but smile like he didn't mind...hehehehe :twisted:

But now i'm ready for it any time a salsero tries to get behind me in this position!! i never let the guys get close to me like that again (unless they're trusted partners i know will NEVER do this kind of stuff)..

imo leading the dance does not mean you're entitled to take total control of the follow!! when the lead tries to do this kind of stuff, i immediately feel free to hijack at any moment i feel like it...

[Lofland]

tacad, the moves you describe don't sound all that bad to me, as long as you aren't really brushing over her chest. Some beginning followers get offended even if you do a hip lead with them. They've never seen one, they think you just invented it yourself to cop a feel. I had this problem at dance class this summer. I was dancing with a 16 year old girl and di this, and she immediately grabbed my hands and put them back in dance position. Fortunately, the next week in class we started a new pattern that involved hip leads, so she could see that I wasn't just copping a feel.

Another surprising one that I saw an advanced leader get away with was where he had her in a 2-hand hold, did a cross-body lead with inside turn till she was facing away from him, wrapped up in front of him. He got right behind her so they were touching, then did a sort of deep knee bend, so his knees pushed the back of her knees so she had to go down. So she sort of sat on his lap. Then, as he went back up, he did a big hip thrust into her booty, followed by a two-and-a-half spin to get her back to facing him.

I would never try the moves blossomingsocialdancer describes, however.

[MacMoto]

Another possiblity is that sometimes I don't get it done as fast as I could. If I'm late getting to a certain point (on any move) I'll wait the extra beats to continue rather than rush through. They may wonder what the heck I'm doing back there.
That's a good point. Moves that can be suspect (close contact, man behind back, hip hold, guy's arm across the follow's front, etc.) feel a *lot* more suspect when the guy seems to spend more time than necessary doing it.

[Medira]

I would have let out an "OUCH!" or a yelp or something after the first one. After the second one, I would have slapped him. There's no way he should have done that to you....especially for that long!

[Kindra]

I'm so glad this topic came up! I too experienced Move #2 not long ago, and was VERY uncomfortable and felt completely degraded and humiliated at the time.
I was especially frustrated as I'de heard from a number of my friends that this guy was amazing to dance with and one of their favorite Salseros. He apparently is an instructor/director of a female troupe in DC. He's been to atleast one private salsa party I was at..and noticed him watching people dance, but he never danced...
I had one interaction with him a few weeks later. He, myself and a few of my friends were walking out the door, and somebody said something like "I was hoping to dance with you tonight!" and he kindof shrugged...well, I said "I've never danced with him"...looked at him and said..."so when am I gonna get to dance with you". wink wink. I thought I was just being playful. So I thought....
When I finally saw him out at a club about a month ago (I don't see him out much)...I asked him to dance. Well, I was unaware that he was actually headed out to the floor with another girl. After his dance, he snagged me and we started dancing. The floor was VERY crowded...and I felt like he had this weird attitude with me from the very beginning...kinda felt like "let's see what you've got"..attitude.
So..in the middle of this crowded dance floor he turns me around and pushes me down...I had to literally dodge other people on the floor with my head! :? I forced my way back up and wouldn't look at him for the remainder of the dance....I had the wierdest vibe all night, like he was trying to intentionally make me feel bad or something. It was actually an experience that I've thought about a number of times...wondering what the hell I had done to this guy, as my friends have had great experiences with him. Did my previous interaction bring on this sort of behavior? Did I say something wrong? Was he bothered by the fact that I asked him to dance?

So weird....and definitely bothersome.

[kansas49er]

Last week, an experienced follower told me that an experienced leader did this move on her where he leaned down and put his head on her upper chest/cleavage and pushed her around with his forhead!!! She knew him well but when it happened the second time she chastised him for it. It was really a surprise because this guy is my friend and normally he's very nice and respectful.

My wife and I saw that exact move frequently while in Cancun last year. We do not dance Salsa, but several bars and clubs we visited did.

[alemana]

it's a disappointment when a good dancer is an a$$. luckily i live in a town where there are enough other leaders that i can just ignore the good-but-stupid ones.

[luh]

Given people's responses, I thought it would be appropriate to add a poll (my very first one!) :)

nice 1
luh

[new-ish]

Another surprising one that I saw an advanced leader get away with was where he had her in a 2-hand hold, did a cross-body lead with inside turn till she was facing away from him, wrapped up in front of him. He got right behind her so they were touching, then did a sort of deep knee bend, so his knees pushed the back of her knees so she had to go down. So she sort of sat on his lap. Then, as he went back up, he did a big hip thrust into her booty, followed by a two-and-a-half spin to get her back to facing him.



I think this move was taught at my usual studio, except the woman is landed on your knee (we were told that anywhere else and physical violence from the follower would be justified.) The hip thrust we were taught was away from her body.

This is one that I only do with follows that I know very well.

[blossomingsalsadancer]

And DON'T you dance with him again!!!

Rest assured I won't! There are way too many good leads out there for me to waste my dances on a lead that doesn't treat me right! :nope:

and advise other girls to stay away. The only way to teach these men who do not understand the difference between dancing and abusing is to boycott

Will do! The salsa grapevine can apparently be both a blessing and a curse! :D

There's a video of social dancing on the Internet from the 2005 L.A. Congress that includes the hair pull and another move where the guy pushes the lady's head down, but not her torso

Hmm, it would be interesting to see that clip. To me though, it seems that dance performances/routines are the bigger culprits in popularizing some tasteless moves. I can't count the number of times I've seen ladies' legs splayed open unbecomingly in the name of lifts and tricks and the times ladies are manhandled by their partners in the name of entertainment. :roll:

Take heart-- not every lead in LA does these "moves".

Oh yes, I know there are a lot of great salseros in LA. I've been dancing for almost 2 years and this is the first time this has happened to me. In defense of LA salseros, I must say the great majority of the ones I danced with have been courteous (regardless of skill level). :applause:

[chachachacat]

I've been led into a similar move in WCS, and I don't like it either.
Sometimes, when i refuse to follow a move, the guy will think I don't know how to do it, and will try again.
What's the best way to say or indicate, no I don't want to do that step!?

[kansas49er]

I've been led into a similar move in WCS, and I don't like it either.
Sometimes, when i refuse to follow a move, the guy will think I don't know how to do it, and will try again.
What's the best way to say or indicate, no I don't want to do that step!?

I once saw Terry Rosebrough from Dallas attempt to lead Jeannie Tucker from Arizona into a dip. She refused , and just shook her index finger in the traditional no, no type manner. worked very well.

[africana]

I've been led into a similar move in WCS, and I don't like it either.
Sometimes, when i refuse to follow a move, the guy will think I don't know how to do it, and will try again.
What's the best way to say or indicate, no I don't want to do that step!?

"no I don't want to do that step!"

[alemana]

yah.

[Canadian Guy]

Another surprising one that I saw an advanced leader get away with was where he had her in a 2-hand hold, did a cross-body lead with inside turn till she was facing away from him, wrapped up in front of him. He got right behind her so they were touching, then did a sort of deep knee bend, so his knees pushed the back of her knees so she had to go down. So she sort of sat on his lap. Then, as he went back up, he did a big hip thrust into her booty, followed by a two-and-a-half spin to get her back to facing him.


I have seen a similar move but the man is supposed to be offset from the woman when he is behind her so that it is his left knee pushing on the back of her right knee to start a body wave - not to get her to sit on your lap.

If you are know the woman well you can be right behind her but you are supposed to be both doing the body wave. Looks really cool when both dancers do the body wave. It's NOT supposed to just a hip thrust. It's a total body wave.

[Lofland]

Canadian Guy, the version you describe doesn't sound so bad. I'll have to ask my teachers and the local followers what they think of that.

[mambonewb]

I'll tell you the move and give you my guesses why they bailed. DaSilva actually started this from a hammerlock then moved around behind them, lifted their arms in the air, took hold of their hands and brought them down to shoulder level (actually this is the second way he taught it). Then reached around their stomachs and spun them out. Now I have had a heck of a time doing that from a hammerlock. So I've used a technique I learned from a different instructor where I put my hand on her stomach, them move behind her, then lift her hands in the air, etc. The bailing has happened either before or during the process of the arms getting lifted in the air.

I really do not know why they bailed as I didn't ask. Here's what I've considered. The first way DaSilva taught it (which I don't do) is from their arms in the air you run your hand down along their arm beside their breast and down the waist. Maybe the women are suspecting that I'm going to do that. Another possiblity is that sometimes I don't get it done as fast as I could. If I'm late getting to a certain point (on any move) I'll wait the extra beats to continue rather than rush through. They may wonder what the heck I'm doing back there. Another thing I've wondered about is that they simply may not feel like doing a sexy move. But as I say I haven't asked and these are just guesses.

For myself, the area beside her breast is not a neutral zone. I know DaSilva is a fabulous dancer, but some of his patterns aren't really appropriate in a social context. Perhaps for a regular dance partner or S.O. (after first clearing it with them), but on anyone else in a social setting -- use at your own risk.

I know a female instructor who absolutely refused to dance with the majority of DaSilva's male students because of what she termed as, "crotch-sniffing" moves. I shudder to think what these involved to make her feel that way.

[tacad]

mambonewb, it's not clear to me that you understood from my post that I do not do that brush beside the breast, so I just wanted to highlight that part below in my post. I agree with you and do not do that. I don't see anything wrong with the way I do it where I raise her arms and then bring her hands down to her shoulders, though. Do you see anything wrong with that? Anyway, thanks for your input mambonewb. I've only been doing club salsa a couple of months so I appreciate any insights I can get. :)


I'll tell you the move and give you my guesses why they bailed. DaSilva actually started this from a hammerlock then moved around behind them, lifted their arms in the air, took hold of their hands and brought them down to shoulder level (actually this is the second way he taught it). Then reached around their stomachs and spun them out. Now I have had a heck of a time doing that from a hammerlock. So I've used a technique I learned from a different instructor where I put my hand on her stomach, them move behind her, then lift her hands in the air, etc. The bailing has happened either before or during the process of the arms getting lifted in the air.

I really do not know why they bailed as I didn't ask. Here's what I've considered. The first way DaSilva taught it (which I don't do) is from their arms in the air you run your hand down along their arm beside their breast and down the waist. Maybe the women are suspecting that I'm going to do that. Another possiblity is that sometimes I don't get it done as fast as I could. If I'm late getting to a certain point (on any move) I'll wait the extra beats to continue rather than rush through. They may wonder what the heck I'm doing back there. Another thing I've wondered about is that they simply may not feel like doing a sexy move. But as I say I haven't asked and these are just guesses.

For myself, the area beside her breast is not a neutral zone. I know DaSilva is a fabulous dancer, but some of his patterns aren't really appropriate in a social context. Perhaps for a regular dance partner or S.O. (after first clearing it with them), but on anyone else in a social setting -- use at your own risk.

I know a female instructor who absolutely refused to dance with the majority of DaSilva's male students because of what she termed as, "crotch-sniffing" moves. I shudder to think what these involved to make her feel that way.

[mambonewb]

tacad - I misread your post. sorry.

[luh]

I've been led into a similar move in WCS, and I don't like it either.
Sometimes, when i refuse to follow a move, the guy will think I don't know how to do it, and will try again.
What's the best way to say or indicate, no I don't want to do that step!?

I once saw Terry Rosebrough from Dallas attempt to lead Jeannie Tucker from Arizona into a dip. She refused , and just shook her index finger in the traditional no, no type manner. worked very well.

you should never dip without permission...
luh

[Danish Guy]

#1
Leading by the hair is sometimes illustrated on workshops I have been on. (x-body, right turn etc)
It’s a little odd, by it might work as a funny thing, if the right situation should occur with a lady I know well from former dances. But the again, I’m not sure I dare risk messing up hours work from the hair salon. Pain and force not a part of my salsa. But getting entangled in long hair trying to get the lady’s back do happen. I’m getting better to avoid this, but if it happens she know it’s not intended.

#2
The short version down & up is done in Rueda de Casino. Hopefully within the comfort zone for teasing, partying and playing. Forcing down NO, holding down with force NO, on a crowded dance floor NO, with an unfamiliar partner NO. Kick he’s @§§, he deserves it. :evil:

[Danish Guy]

you should never dip without permission...

Why? :?

I have never asked.

To me it’s about leading her into a dip, no forcing.
Starting with a little dip, to get her reaction.
It’s about comfort, trust and technique, so she feels she’s safe (and is).
And about listening and respecting her reaction if she won’t follow, and just use the 911 moves to keep dancing. Here properly just a freeze, then back on the beat. But you also have to be ready, if she is the “throw herself to the floor” type.

Sometimes I even dip a beginner if the frame is working. Can be a great way of making a pause before getting her back on the beat.

[Danish Guy]

For myself, the area beside her breast is not a neutral zone. I know DaSilva is a fabulous dancer, but some of his patterns aren't really appropriate in a social context. Perhaps for a regular dance partner or S.O. (after first clearing it with them), but on anyone else in a social setting -- use at your own risk.

I use the side, but I think I’m tending to go a little closer to the backside then the front side. This might be the edge that’s differ. Could look like this. I got my hands on her hips, and want to change to hand to hand. I can let go, and ask for her hands. Or I can slide my hands up her side, rounding her shoulders, and slide along her underarms directly into a fingertip connection.

Usually catch a smile.

[ash88]

you should never dip without permission...

Why? :?

I have never asked.

To me it’s about leading her into a dip, no forcing.
Starting with a little dip, to get her reaction.
It’s about comfort, trust and technique, so she feels she’s safe (and is).
And about listening and respecting her reaction if she won’t follow, and just use the 911 moves to keep dancing. Here properly just a freeze, then back on the beat. But you also have to be ready, if she is the “throw herself to the floor” type.

Sometimes I even dip a beginner if the frame is working. Can be a great way of making a pause before getting her back on the beat.

I've never asked for permission when dipping a girl. But i make damn sure i do it safely, slowly, with good technique, and I stop immediately if i feel resistance on her part.

Of course, if your dip was ultra fancy, or not safe, i'd imagine you might want to warn her first :?

[tacad]

tacad - I misread your post. sorry.
No problem. :)

[kansas49er]

I've been led into a similar move in WCS, and I don't like it either.
Sometimes, when i refuse to follow a move, the guy will think I don't know how to do it, and will try again.
What's the best way to say or indicate, no I don't want to do that step!?

I once saw Terry Rosebrough from Dallas attempt to lead Jeannie Tucker from Arizona into a dip. She refused , and just shook her index finger in the traditional no, no type manner. worked very well.

you should never dip without permission...
luh

This was in a competition Jack and Jill (Invitational level) Both Terry and Jeannie are professionals, but your point is till worth taking, I think. In any event, she stopped him immediately. They went on from there.

[kdogg]

I'm so glad this topic came up! I too experienced Move #2 not long ago, and was VERY uncomfortable and felt completely degraded and humiliated at the time.
I was especially frustrated as I'de heard from a number of my friends that this guy was amazing to dance with and one of their favorite Salseros. He apparently is an instructor/director of a female troupe in DC. He's been to atleast one private salsa party I was at..and noticed him watching people dance, but he never danced...
I had one interaction with him a few weeks later. He, myself and a few of my friends were walking out the door, and somebody said something like "I was hoping to dance with you tonight!" and he kindof shrugged...well, I said "I've never danced with him"...looked at him and said..."so when am I gonna get to dance with you". wink wink. I thought I was just being playful. So I thought....
When I finally saw him out at a club about a month ago (I don't see him out much)...I asked him to dance. Well, I was unaware that he was actually headed out to the floor with another girl. After his dance, he snagged me and we started dancing. The floor was VERY crowded...and I felt like he had this weird attitude with me from the very beginning...kinda felt like "let's see what you've got"..attitude.
So..in the middle of this crowded dance floor he turns me around and pushes me down...I had to literally dodge other people on the floor with my head! :? I forced my way back up and wouldn't look at him for the remainder of the dance....I had the wierdest vibe all night, like he was trying to intentionally make me feel bad or something. It was actually an experience that I've thought about a number of times...wondering what the hell I had done to this guy, as my friends have had great experiences with him. Did my previous interaction bring on this sort of behavior? Did I say something wrong? Was he bothered by the fact that I asked him to dance?

So weird....and definitely bothersome.

Kindra, I'm sorry about your dance with that chap. I haven't seen any guys do that to a girl. I don't know why he acted that way towards you. All I know is that he was being a jerk. You probably told yourself that you wouldn't dance with him ever again; but if you do want to find out whether if that's how he behaves towards you, the only way to do it is to dance with him again. May be he doesn't deserve a second chance to redeem himself.

[kdogg]

you should never dip without permission...
luh

I don't know if I agree with that. If we wait for the permission it takes the fun out of it; then you'll have to even get permission whether you can give her a double spin or triple spin. Generally, when you dance with a girl you can tell after a few moves whether she can do dips or not. Even if you think she can do it, you've to look around to make sure there is enough room. I've seen several leaders do dips and hit other couples.

[MacMoto]

you should never dip without permission...
luh

I don't know if I agree with that.
I don't think it's necessary to ask for permission either.
Then again, I remember a thread where luh discussed dips, and they were more like death drops :shock: -- and you definitely want the girl to know what's coming when you perform tricks like those.

There are safe dips and not-so-safe dips. There are dips executed by a leader who knows how to dip safely, and then there are guys who have never been taught how to dip but dip girls anyway... :evil:

[blossomingsalsadancer]

you should never dip without permission...

Why? :?

I have never asked.

To me it’s about leading her into a dip, no forcing.
Starting with a little dip, to get her reaction.
It’s about comfort, trust and technique, so she feels she’s safe (and is).
And about listening and respecting her reaction if she won’t follow, and just use the 911 moves to keep dancing. Here properly just a freeze, then back on the beat. But you also have to be ready, if she is the “throw herself to the floor” type.

Sometimes I even dip a beginner if the frame is working. Can be a great way of making a pause before getting her back on the beat.

I've never asked for permission when dipping a girl. But i make damn sure i do it safely, slowly, with good technique, and I stop immediately if i feel resistance on her part.

Of course, if your dip was ultra fancy, or not safe, i'd imagine you might want to warn her first :?

I like Danish Guy's idea to gauge the lady's reaction by starting with an easy/small dip. This gives both lead and follower a chance to assess each other's skills. Dips require an incredible amount of trust so don't be surprised if a lady balks at doing them with you (it's probably because she feels unsafe with you for one reason or another).

I usually resist being dipped on the first dance by men who are shorter/smaller than me or men who are in their 60s and above that look rather frail. Rightly or wrongly, I have trust issues in this context because I'm afraid in case of a mishap, they won't be able to support my weight. Although I can support most of my weight in a proper dip, I find that a dip executed in an improper fashion ends up with the lead having to support most of my weight. Only after I've danced with them several times and have gotten a good feel for their skill level/technique will I allow shorter men or frail looking salseros to dip me.

Some dips should never be executed without express permission. About half a year ago, I was in one of those drop-in classes they usually have at a salsa club before the dancing starts--one of those that don't differentiate between beginners, intermediates and advanced. The teacher was teaching this dip which, as best as I can describe, seems to involve the lead kicking the back of a woman's leg so that she bends over backward and ends up in an unexpected dip (it kind of felt like he was tripping me backwards). It was fine when the teacher did it with me (he was using me for a demo) although I was surprised when it happened. It didn't however go very well with the partner I had during that rotation--he was a beginner barely learning the basics of salsa. Anyway, like the rest of the men there, he was impressed by the move and was eager to try it. When he tried it with me, I felt a painful twinge in my lower back and to make matters worse, because he was shorter than me, I was bent over backward so much that I hit my head on the floor. :shock: Needless to say I refused to practice that move with anyone else for the rest of the class. After class I told the teacher it's not a good idea to teach something that advanced to a class that comprises mostly of beginners. I never took a class with that teacher again. The point of the story is this--don't try dips like that without permission. If you are going to be bold enough to try it without permission, make sure your technique and skill is solid enough for you to execute it safely and be prepared for a personal injury lawsuit if the lady ends up being hurt!

[leaf]

you should never dip without permission...

Why? :?

I have never asked.

To me it’s about leading her into a dip, no forcing.
Starting with a little dip, to get her reaction.
It’s about comfort, trust and technique, so she feels she’s safe (and is).
And about listening and respecting her reaction if she won’t follow, and just use the 911 moves to keep dancing. Here properly just a freeze, then back on the beat. But you also have to be ready, if she is the “throw herself to the floor” type.

Sometimes I even dip a beginner if the frame is working. Can be a great way of making a pause before getting her back on the beat.

I've never asked for permission when dipping a girl. But i make damn sure i do it safely, slowly, with good technique, and I stop immediately if i feel resistance on her part.

Of course, if your dip was ultra fancy, or not safe, i'd imagine you might want to warn her first :?

Just like to share my experience, nothing personal... there was once I knew a dip is coming and I immediately stopped right before the dip and refuse to bend... the guy actually paused for a sec and used his plam and push me down! Was annoyed as it is so dangerous, but hilarious whenever I tell this story to friends.

And many various funny incidents like dipping me in a short skirt :oops: or getting a dip even when I said no dips before we start dancing and end up flattening him on the ground :lol:

[Kindra]

Kindra, I'm sorry about your dance with that chap. I haven't seen any guys do that to a girl. I don't know why he acted that way towards you. All I know is that he was being a jerk. You probably told yourself that you wouldn't dance with him ever again; but if you do want to find out whether if that's how he behaves towards you, the only way to do it is to dance with him again. May be he doesn't deserve a second chance to redeem himself.

Thanks kdogg! Yeah...I can say with certainty, I won't be asking him to dance again! And, I doubt he will ever ask me....his loss! ;)

[peachexploration]

:bkick: :evil: :bkick: :evil: :bkick: :evil:

I'll never understand some people. I'd say a good buttkicking, for these guys, is definitely in order! :evil:

[macha]

Ok, I know I'm not supposed to be here till January, but when you see something like this pop up so often in the active topics list...

That REALLY reminded me of an awkward "experience" a friend was recounting about his first proctologist visit.... just going on the subject alone. :oops:

[Ms_Sunlight]

You know, every time I see this topic I think, shouldn't this have been the title of the bikini waxing thread?

:wink:

[SDsalsaguy]

:shock: :shock: :shock:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[blossomingsalsadancer]

That REALLY reminded me of an awkward "experience" a friend was recounting about his first proctologist visit.... just going on the subject alone.

You know, every time I see this topic I think, shouldn't this have been the title of the bikini waxing thread?

:wink:

LOL!!! :lol:

Sorry folks! However, I don't think "When Men Pull Your Hair and Bend You Over" would be that much better either! ;)

[sara1011]

Sorry folks! However, I don't think "When Men Pull Your Hair and Bend You Over" would be that much better either!

That would be for a whole 'nother forum. :wink:

The short version down & up is done in Rueda de Casino. Hopefully within the comfort zone for teasing, partying and playing. Forcing down NO, holding down with force NO, on a crowded dance floor NO, with an unfamiliar partner NO. Kick he’s @§§, he deserves it. :evil:

Danish Guy, what's the name of that move? I dance rueda and I've never come across that move.

And speaking of dips: About a month ago I was out and I saw this one guy practically drop the woman he was dancing with. I mean, I assume he was going for a deep dip, but she nearly hit the floor.

[DeeplyDippy]

Ahhh, the dip of death :D