High School and College Ballroom Teams -- What is the Value?

[pygmalion]

I had an interesting experience last night. I attended a Halloween party at a new studio, where half the guests were members of a local high school ballroom team. Very interesting, since I hadn't danced with high school boys since Jr. High! :lol: Lots of fun.

Just wondering what you folks think -- do these types of teams have value in the ballroom world? If so, what?

[Giselle]

What is the value!? What kind of a question is that? :shock: Though I'm not a member of a dance team, I am an officer for the University of Texas's Ballroom Dance Club....Funny that you should mention it- because we attended a Halloween party hosted by Austin Ballroom Dancers just last night and had to be shushed somewhat when it came time to let the audience vote on best costumes. Through our club, and other college dance teams, numerous classes are offered at low prices for anyone who is interested. I would say that college teams/clubs are really the ones to introduce ballroom to people who haven't a clue (in fact, one of the good dancers at my studio at home got his start with a college team) without pricy classes ($35 a semester, all the classes you want). Those highschool boys who dance now are going to be the better leads later on. Also, we get huge turnouts for our dances, both students and from nearby studios. Anyone here attend the Great Waltz Masquerade Ball last weekend? :wink:

[pygmalion]

No offense intended. Just trying to ask the question in a non-prejudicial way. I can think of, oh, a couple dozen great things about these teams right off the top of my head. I want to give other people a chance, though. :D

[Sagitta]

It's a good way to introduce people to dance, which is something that all of us here love to do, at a reasonable cost. The classes do tend to be really large, though. I am attending the Cornell University ballroom club classes (which work out to like a dollar a class if you attend all that are offered) and there are sometimes 100 people and just two teachers (follow and lead). If you want help you do have to be assertive.

There also is the socializing aspect, and lastly it gives the students something productive to do that is fun.

The dance team members are the ones who teach the classes. It is great to see that they can follow their passion both as students and also sharing their enjoyment of dance as teachers.

[SDsalsaguy]

I have plenty to say on this one... but want to let others comment as they will first. :wink:

[Sarah]

I wouldn't be dancing if it wasn't for my university dance club. 'Nuff said. :)

Cheers
Sarah

[smoothdancingirl]

I think it's great! I wish my college would have had at least beginner ballroom classes. It would have given me a head start on my career. We really need to teach young people so they can be tommorows champions and teachers. Why do you think we have to import so many professionals?

[Frodo]

From my point of view (not having a competitive focus) the value of these teams is not primarily in the team, but in the associated club.

- Assuming the competitive team needs a club from which to draw members.

As with Sarah, I don't think I would be dancing now without it.

[Spitfire]

I think it's great for the promotion of dancing. I mentioned earlier that a rather large number of teens have been coming to the dances here. Not sure, but I think they might be a part of a high school club.

[MissAlyssa]

I think it's great that the younger generations (which I'm part of I might add) are getting into ballroom dancing!

[pygmalion]

The other night, I had the pleasure of watching a young lady dance -- about 15 or 16 years old, I'd guess, and dancing ballroom since she was about 7 or 8, I've been told. Gorgeous! A beautiful, natural and confident dancer, with about the most beautiful arms I've seen other than on a ballerina. AND a member of a high school dance team.

There's a lot to be said for getting started early. Maybe these kinds of teams will help give the US a leg up toward becoming more competitive internationally.

Incidentally, my perception is that high school/college/university dance clubs and teams are not nearly as prevalent in the US as they are in other countries around the world. True?

[Vince A]

Hi Jenn,
I was on a dance team for about 8 years . . . the comradery is "priceless."

There is a team from Utah . . . BYU . . . called Thunder and Ice, that competes. They are students at BYU, and sign up for the team by enrolling in a class. What they do is beyond all written explanation. The dancing is phenominal to say the least. Most of the students also venture out into Pro-Am competitions during the same events.

I have seen them do skits from movies, etc., like Oklahoma (I think???) and skits that they make up. Michelle Ackerman is their choreographer and dance coach, and she is in her right a great dancer!

"Teams" get many a youngter started in the fun dance world!

I'm actually going to try to get into judging next year, and team judging is what I want to specialize in!

[pygmalion]

A question: what are the best/most visible collegiate competitions out there for ballroom dancers?

[pygmalion]

An observation: the local high school dance team has a standing request for used dance shoes. Many of the kids on the team can't afford a good pair of dance shoes. Wow. So a question: what can we dance fanatics do to help/encourage kids or financially struggling students to dance or keep dancing?

[pygmalion]

Since we now have several new members that are associated with university dance teams, I thought you might want to get you two cents worth in on this one.

I, personally, find it wrong, somehow that the ballroom world is full of many wealthy people (especially doing pro-am) while students (the future of the sport) are struggling.

What can/should be done?

[Genesius Redux]

It depends on the school budget. There has to be something in the budget for equipment--and dance shoes are certainly equipment. Or local teams and clubs can do what the high school band has been doing for years--bake sales, selling candy, oranges.

Certainly local dance studios are in the best position to help out struggling high schools and kids or adults who are having trouble with expenses. The teams need to approach those local schools and get someone to take their concerns to their own wealthy students.

As far as old dance shoes, though--that's kind of nasty. People should have their own shoes--a scholarship fund for needy students would seem appropriate.

[Chris Stratton]

I, personally, find it wrong, somehow that the ballroom world is full of many wealthy people (especially doing pro-am) while students (the future of the sport) are struggling.

I'm not sure this ranks all that high amongst the world's injustices.

Yes, there is a lot of money in pro-am, but some of that money goes to subsidize studios and pros who probably could not stay afloat on amateur coaching alone (at least at reasonable rates). And there are college girls having a ball in pro-am lady's old gowns

The one way in which the money aspect of pro-am and related approaches to dancing may in fact cause harm is by creating a general impression throughout the US that dancing is an expensive activity. It need not be - with some carefull thought, each half of a developing amateur couple should be able to keep their weekly expenses under $60, which compares well with any other activity that needs individual attention from a professional. Your typicall college comp costs $40 or less (often around $25 for students) to enter, the kids pile into cars to get there, and often sleep in some dorm lounge at the host school.

[pygmalion]

No. You're right. There are far greater injustices out there -- world hunger and an inadequate water supply come immediately to mind.

I'm thinking of a local high school team where the students literally cannot afford dance shoes. The dance lessons are provided through the school district, but the local economy is such that the kids have to rely on donated shoes, or have no shoes.

Yet, ten miles up the road, there are people that I know personally who spend $30000 a year on dance lessons, with an unlimited budget for all the extras. That doesn't seem quite right to me.

[Chris Stratton]

We just need to move dance shoe production out of England to somewhere cheaper, so that it can join the injustice of name-brand sneaker production ;-)

[pygmalion]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Good point. :wink: :lol:

Actually, a local dance instructor (a very well-ranked American smooth competitor) has donated quite a bit of her own time to teach and coach that team. Also, the local USABDA chapter sponsors an annual fund raiser for them. And lowly schlubs like me occasionally part with a pair of shoes. It works, because it's become something of a community project.

[Genesius Redux]

Yes, there is a lot of money in pro-am, but some of that money goes to subsidize studios and pros who probably could not stay afloat on amateur coaching alone (at least at reasonable rates)

I wasn't talking about studios using their money to help out struggling school programs. I was talking about their ability to alert some of their wealthier patrons to the needs of a local school program. This can take as simple a form as leaving flyers out in the reception area, or just bringing up the costs in conversation.

Because the arts go largely unsubsidized in the US, it's incumbent on the private sector to pick up some of the slack. In colleges, a ballroom team or club can be supported out of the Student Activities budget--but what about in high schools? Especially struggling public schools?

The ostensible argument in favor of private enterprise and the arts is that the private sector can support those arts it finds valuable rather than having to support a number of different things it doesn't like through taxes. In practice, however, a lot of arts programs go neglected and unnoticed.

The fact that there are greater injustices in the world than unfunded dance programs in the schools is beside the point, as is the fact that kids find the money to pay for designer sneakers. Many kids living in depressed urban areas have to choose between funding their dancing and funding their everyday wardrobe. Rich kids don't. So are there ways to promote the sport in poorer school districts? That's the point.

Of course people may quite legitimately feel that support for poor students and struggling dance programs is a non-issue. But then I always wonder why they would want to spend even one second writing about it. :?

[pygmalion]

No, GR, I don't think we're making light of a serious situation here. 8)

I do think that you're bringing up a good point, though. One thing that might help is to get information out, and somehow match people with excess with people who have needs. It really doesn't take much effort -- a couple flyers would do the trick. Thats how I found out about the kids who needed shoes -- a flyer on a dance studio bulletin board. It said,"used dance shoes needed." When I asked about it, I was appalled to find that there were people within a fifteen minute drive from my house, asking for old dance shoes. eeek! It would never even occur to me to wear somebody's discarded shoes. Yet that's what this program was requesting. :?

[NielsenE]

Well I'm trying to plan/organize another competition; I had been thinking that a highschool would be a great low-cost venue. Perhaps I can find a local one with a team and donate any proceeds to their team.

[pygmalion]

That's really cool, NielsenE. And I think that's the point. It doesn't take a whole lot of money or effort on any individual's part to make the whole thing work. I don't mean planning a comp. That's gotta be a huge amount of work. But planning to have a comp at a school could accomplish a lot, even if you don't donate the proceeds. It could raise visibility for the local program, expose kids to higher level dancing, provide networking opportunities, raise awareness in the community by people who might be able to donate time or services, oh yeah, and keep your budget in line. And that could all be accomplished by choosing a high school as a venue, rather than a hotel. Pretty cool, and a win-win, I think. 8)

[tasche]

Well I was a member of a school team when I was intermediate/middle school and remember doing our first proformances all wearing Kung-fuu shoes ( black for guys/white for girls) bc dance shoes were so pricey

[Warren J. Dew]

From my point of view (not having a competitive focus) the value of these teams is not primarily in the team, but in the associated club.

- Assuming the competitive team needs a club from which to draw members.

Some colleges have only teams.

Teams don't generally have a purely competitive focus, though. Based on somewhat limited observation, teams at colleges without independent clubs often tend to have as much a social as a competitive focus.

I think it's all good. The more people that are dancing, the better.

[tasche]

We just need to move dance shoe production out of England to somewhere cheaper, so that it can join the injustice of name-brand sneaker production ;-)

They do make them elsewhere and they do a darn good job of it too. (yeah! no more kung foo shoes)

[tasche]

Just had a though. Pro-Am ladies should support college teams as college teams provide a fresh source of partners for pro-ams to play sugar mummy to ;) (of course I'm young enough to still be in college but not (yet) deseparate for a partner to go back.)

[Warren J. Dew]

I, personally, find it wrong, somehow that the ballroom world is full of many wealthy people (especially doing pro-am) while students (the future of the sport) are struggling.

At least here in the greater Boston area, the students are not really struggling. Well established teams frequently have more donated ball gowns than they know what to do with - some are even in more recent styles than most amateur competitors can afford. And while the members generally do end up paying for their own shoes, that's not so much because the teams don't have money as because they prefer to spend it on professional instruction.

If anything, the presence of wealthy people helps the students, because it's the wealthy pro-am ladies who have extra gowns that they're willing to donate. Far from finding it wrong, I find there can be a very positive synergy.

I do agree we could do a better job matching up donors with teams/clubs/schools - especially those of the latter that are in the struggling 'start-up' stages.

[pygmalion]

Yes. I had the feeling (prejudice? :oops: :lol: ) that MIT team students mights not be struggling as much as some. :wink: :D

And I agree that matching up schools and donors would be a great thing. The pro-am and social ballroom people I know are, for the most part, kind and generous people who'd be more than willing to help out struggling students. Many of them are just unaware that there's a need. :?

[Larinda McRaven]

I am from the Ozarks in Missouri...can you say "no money"? I went to a state university and I definately was way poorer after I graduated and became a responible productive fully employed citizen.

Just because someone is a student does not imply that they don't have access to money (perhaps not their own) and someone who is working class citizen does have money.

Perhaps if we are to believe that because they are students they should have access to programs to help them grow and enrich their lives then I will buy the argument that the programs are underfunded and that is an injustice. But I can't go along with it if we are saying that someone is a poor student with no money and is being wronged by the fact that a hard working adult has more money (and freedom to choose from any number of hobbies).

I'm thinking of a local high school team where the students literally cannot afford dance shoes.... Yet, ten miles up the road, there are people that I know personally who spend $30000 a year on dance lessons, with an unlimited budget for all the extras.

My Mom recently bought a really nice house. It took her until she was in her 50s to be able to afford a house that is as nice as she got. Is it an injustice that I can't even begin to think about buying one 1/5 as expensive as she got? No, but she has worked really hard and saved and has earned the right to afford such a luxury.

Unfortunate, yes, injustice.....I don't know.

[pygmalion]

I have no problem with that Larinda. But it also can't hurt to provide people who want to support dance programs with the information and opportunity to do that. No harm done. 8)

[Larinda McRaven]

Yup, if they have to goods, time, information and are willing to donate that is awsome. Should we expect them to donate...just because they can...

I am reminded of my first humbeling experience with a situation like this. There is a student in our area. She is EXTremely wealthy. She was looking for new luggage. She was being incredibly picky. She wanted exactly a certain size and color, and I guess they were very hard to find. When she finally, after weeks, found just the right ones she told me she wouldn't buy them because they were too expensive. I was shocked and slightly irritated. When I complained to my boss, about her audacity to complain about money, my boss replied "hey its her money and just because she has lots doesn't mean that she should be expected to pay more for something or give it away."

[Chris Stratton]

One thing maybe we should to keep in mind here is that with the exception of some notable programs introducing dance to the underprivileged, many of the people who "can't afford dance shoes" are in reality in comfortable circumstances, but not sure they are yet ready to invest something like $120 in a hobby that is only a tenative interest.

[pygmalion]

Absolutely. There are a lot of kids out there who have more disposable income than I do (especially now that I'm dancing LOL.) But there are some programs out there introducing dance to the underprivileged.

[pygmalion]

And the whole funding issue is just a side note.

Having spent my high school years living in the orchestra/band/marching band/choir tour buses, I have a clue of the answer, but I'll ask anyway. What kind of benefits are there to being an active participant in one of these high school or university teams? Artistic? Professional? Personal?Social? Other?

Thoughts, anyone?

[Chris Stratton]

Well one thing that is nice is having a social dance peer group that can actually dance well.

Sometimes you get better, more technique-oriented group lessons.

More of a cooperative atmosphere than some studios (but I've also seen divided teams, and unified studios, so there is no rule)

Sharing rides to comps, someone to hold your video camera, etc

[Genesius Redux]

Well, I wouldn't call underfunded programs an injustice. I would say that it is extremely short-sighted of our society not to invest in the arts.

Yes, the shoes are $120. But how often are you having to change them? Or, on the other hand, how many pair would you need to keep yourself dancing for a year? When we're dealing with kids, by which I mean high school or junior high school age, access to money like that is not a given. I'd say you're dealing with probably at least $500 per year in new shoes alone (unless they go to the clearance rack, where they can get them a bit cheaper). For a family of, say, five, that makes $25K per year, that's a significant expense.

Do I consider the difficulty of that expense and the possibility that such a family may not be able to afford dance shoes an injustice? No. I don't even consider economic inequities as they are in this country a matter of injustice. I'm not a Marxist.

But I do think there are public policy questions to consider. I do think we have the right and responsibility as a society to support the arts that we value. And I can think of dozens of purely pragmatic reasons to support dance programs for the underprivileged.

Justice to me means availability of resources for inalienable rights (everyone has a right to medical care, food, clothing, shelter, regardless of whether they can afford it), and a (theoretically not practically) equal access to privileges (nobody should be arbitrarily hindered from pursuing their dream of becoming a dancer, a basketball player, or the President of the United States, even if they lack the resources, the talent, or the opportunities to pursue it).

So when I say fund the programs, and establish scholarship funds, I'm thinking in terms of pragmatism not entitlement. What's at stake is not the dancer but the dance.

[pygmalion]

Actually, when I started this thread, what I had in mind was a nice, non-political discussion regarding the social, emotional and physical benefits of exposing kids to ballroom dance. I saw (see!) ballroom teams as roughly analogous to my own experience in classical music -- a fun, educational, horizon-broadening experience which keeps kids doing something productive with their free time.

Yes, there are some political issues that impact ballroom dance programs, particularly in public high schools and universities. Can we do much about them as a ballroom community? Probably not much, since we're a relatively small minority and (as is clear from the various comments in this thread) are quite unlikely to vote monolithically.

My own conclusion? Do what I can and what I feel moved to do as an individual. That's all we really can do, right? And, incidentally, that's why I participate in Dance Forums to the extent I do. It's fun, certainly. But I really have lots of other things I could be doing with my time and mental resources -- things that would further my career and my life a heck of a lot better than sittling around googling with strangers. I do DF as part of my commitment to give something back to the dance community. Plain and simple.

[Chris Stratton]

Athletics in a school setting are usually divided into two categories: competition, and lifetime recreation/fitness. Sometimes the 'lifetime' stuff is taken seriously enough that proposals to let varsity athletes have a study hall instead of gym class get shot down, on the idea that they should be exposed to other things they can enjoy as they age and wash out of their comeptitive sport.

A basic introduction to lifetime skills ballroom does not require dance shoes.

[Genesius Redux]

Actually, when I started this thread, what I had in mind was a nice, non-political discussion regarding the social, emotional and physical benefits of exposing kids to ballroom dance. I saw (see!) ballroom teams as roughly analogous to my own experience in classical music -- a fun, educational, horizon-broadening experience which keeps kids doing something productive with their free time.

:lol: Sorry, sweetie! Didn't mean to hijack it and take it to the mats! :lol:

But actually, I think not so much as non-political as non-partisan. And I do think that most everyone, regardless of whether they may think an imaginary individual worthy or not worthy of financial help, will probably agree that funding the arts in the schools is a worthy endeavor--which may speak very directly to your topic.

Yes, there are definite benefits to having a program in the schools. For all the same reasons that we have any other sports programs--it teaches a lot of teamwork, it's healthy, keeps kids off the streets. It has the added benefit of introducing kids to the arts in a very pragmatic way. And with the arts comes an understanding of history--as we've seen on various forums here, the swing board, the salsa board, the Argentine Tango forum.

Ask your average high school kid about the history of a sport and you'll be surprised at how engaged they are and how much they know. As you'll also be surprised at how interested they are in other historical matters that they hadn't paid attention to before. That women went into the factories in World War II means nothing to most high school kids. That a women's baseball league was created does.

Finally, kids can learn how to understand and respect gender differences. They can be dancing closely with a member of the opposite sex under the direct supervision of a grownup.

So, yes--the programs are a great idea.

I don't agree that there's nothing people who dance can do to affect large policy decisions in matters like these. If you're just talking about a voting bloc for support of the NEA, you're right. Nobody cares. But high school arts programs are generally funded and administered at the local level, so yes, you can get directly involved in creating and sustaining a program in dance if you want to. It's a battle, but it can be done.

Generally, after a program has been established, that's when state and fed officials take notice. For people who are teaching in high schools and also on the forums, the opportunities are vast. But you usually have to start up the program on your own, to cut through all the administrative red tape you would ordinarily have to go through. Invite some teachers from a local studio to the school for a demonstration and an introductory class, get the kids behind it, have them tell their parents, let the parents bug the admin about it.

I think there are plenty of opportunities to make a difference in creating a program--but the program needs the person behind it.

[Warren J. Dew]

Yes, the shoes are $120. But how often are you having to change them?
Depends on whether they are men's shoes or women's shoes, and whether you are wearing them 1 hour a week or 50 hours a week ... for amateur men, shoes can last a long time if you take care of them.

For that matter, for a high school program similar to the high school band or orchestra programs I'm familiar with, I'm not certain the kids need real dance shoes right away. A pair of street pumps might be fine for the girls until they decide how serious they are, and might be a lot cheaper an initial investment. And for guys, used shoes aren't that big a deal, since socks keep them from getting quite as, uh, fragrant as the ladies' shoes.

Most of the people who are in a high school band or orchestra do not go on to professional careers in music. I didn't, but I'm still glad I was in the orchestra - it was a good experience, and even now it allows me to appreciate music more than I otherwise would have.

I think a high school ballroom program would be even more useful, in that people will have even more opportunity to use the skills in later life, even if they never dance except at weddings.

[pygmalion]

Yes, GR. There's much in what you say. I absolutely have to run NOW, or I would go through and insert those neat little quote boxes to use your own words. Oh well, paraphrasing will have to suffice. :? :wink: :lol:

Yes. I believe that virtually every big movement, partisan or otherwise, started with small, individual ideas and efforts. Individuals can create change. A voting bloc to support NEA? Uh ... somehow I doubt it. But individuals can do something to support the arts, if they want to and think it's important enough to do so.

[Genesius Redux]

For that matter, for a high school program similar to the high school band or orchestra programs I'm familiar with, I'm not certain the kids need real dance shoes right away. A pair of street pumps might be fine for the girls until they decide how serious they are, and might be a lot cheaper an initial investment. And for guys, used shoes aren't that big a deal, since socks keep them from getting quite as, uh, fragrant as the ladies' shoes.

Probably you're right--and by the time they need the shoes, they'll be into it enough that they'll want to get their own. Dance sneakers can last forever virtually. And there's no reason that most kids on a high school team couldn't get their own shoes the same way the kids on the soccer team get their own cleats, or in the band they get their own instruments.

[Kitty]

No. You're right. There are far greater injustices out there -- world hunger and an inadequate water supply come immediately to mind.

I'm thinking of a local high school team where the students literally cannot afford dance shoes. The dance lessons are provided through the school district, but the local economy is such that the kids have to rely on donated shoes, or have no shoes.

Yet, ten miles up the road, there are people that I know personally who spend $30000 a year on dance lessons, with an unlimited budget for all the extras. That doesn't seem quite right to me.

I don't think it is unfair. Shoes don't make one a dancer. I danced (almost every day) for half a year in regular shoes, or dress shoes, or sneakers, until I decided that I wanted to invest in shoes (if I didn't, I'd have to buy new dress shoes anyway by now).

Dance Teams and opportunities to dance at school are awesome, as they promote the sport. Going alone to a dance studio and taking lessons is one thing, going to practices and competing as a team, organising your own socials and competitions is totally different experience. we have a member on the team who didn't win at any of competitions, but who made our website. That person is as dedicated to dance team as anyone else.

Having an opportunity to dance and funding university dance team is important, however I would think it is unfair to request that schools pay for anyone's private dance lessons. Team is about engaging and promoting the sport, not giving out things for which other people have to pay a fortune. I hope what I mean is understandable.

And back to the shoes issue: as Chris Stratton mentioned, they cost less than bottled water. I think everyone can afford a pair once a year (you can find them on sale for 60 bucks).

[Kitty]

Assuming the competitive team needs a club from which to draw members.

Some colleges have only teams.

Teams don't generally have a purely competitive focus, though. Based on somewhat limited observation, teams at colleges without independent clubs often tend to have as much a social as a competitive focus.
I think it's all good. The more people that are dancing, the better.

My team has a club.

However, even though we have a club, we still are not a purely competitive team. In fact we have members who don't compete at all. We organise socials and performances, and promote ballroom dance in any other way possible:-).

[Chris Stratton]

Yeah, so you buy water by the gallon for 55 cents (or $1.09 in NYC) and bring that to team practice to share, then make everyone stuff a buck in their private shoe fund...

By the way, one thing the MIT crowd detests about some other programs: DON'T HAVE TRYOUTS. Let everyone who wants to try try - voluntary attrition will shrink the group to something manageable by the time you have to worry about subsidizing the first competition.

[Kitty]

Yeah, so you buy water by the gallon for 55 cents (or $1.09 in NYC) and bring that to team practice to share, then make everyone stuff a buck in their private shoe fund...


I love that idea! :D

[pygmalion]

Athletics in a school setting are usually divided into two categories: competition, and lifetime recreation/fitness. Sometimes the 'lifetime' stuff is taken seriously enough that proposals to let varsity athletes have a study hall instead of gym class get shot down, on the idea that they should be exposed to other things they can enjoy as they age and wash out of their comeptitive sport.

A basic introduction to lifetime skills ballroom does not require dance shoes.

I thought about your post for the balance of the afternoon. (Alas! DF is very bad for my productivity level! :oops: :lol: ) It's interesting you make the disctinction between competition and lifetime skills. Actually, I used to be in the competition level equivalent of a music program. You know, the crazy people with bohemian clothes and unkempt hair, who go around writing music and taking practice and theory classes three or four periods a day. (Wonderful memories :D About thirty percent of my class ended up doing music professionally. I had security issues, so I went the safe route. :? )

Anyway, here's the deal. A value of university dance teams that I see is providing a viable pool of talent to step up and represent their country or community in the competitive dance world's next generation. Maybe these teams are a way to make the US more of a force on the world scene?

And, incidentally, this is not a US-specific topic, is it? Aren't there university dance teams all over the world?

[Chris Stratton]

In this age of intense adolescent programs, I'm not sure that many people who start in their college years will ever quite reach world championship level, but I think it is true that in parts of the US the university programs provide the only large-scale post-adolescent introduction to competition.

Of course this is intermixed with an introduction to social dancing, and even where programs are seperate there are people who start in one track and crossover, or both and specialize.

In both cases, dance shoes aren't really a necessity until a beginner has some degree of committment to the activity. Someone should do a survey, but I'm guessing the utiliziation of dance shoes at the Harvard beginner comp (traditional start of the NE season) is under 30%... and probably no more than 70% in the finals. It's probably climbing though. It might almost make sense at some point for teams to consider buying back shoes from those who quit to recycle, except that I think a lot of people who do drop out may not loose interest, so much as get caught up in other activites or school work - better if they keep the shoes and show up at a social now and then.

[SDsalsaguy]

Maybe these teams are a way to make the US more of a force on the world scene?
I don't think so Jenn. A presence, perhaps, but not a force. While there may be exceptions, those who are going to have a high impact on the world scene are more likely to have started dancing and competing even younger.

[pygmalion]

Hence my passion to get the younger kids dancing -- the high school, and even middle school kids. There are both in my area.

[Chris Stratton]

Maybe these teams are a way to make the US more of a force on the world scene?
I don't think so Jenn. A presence, perhaps, but not a force. While there may be exceptions, those who are going to have a high impact on the world scene are more likely to have started dancing and competing even younger.

My thoughts exactly. Though it's possible that the over-35 division may heat up substantially over the next decade or so if the current post-collegiate crowd keeps going. Consider for example, Mark Sheldon who started as a graduate student and has been in o35 finals at Blackpool.

[pygmalion]

Bottom line. Without a feeder pool, you'll never get taken seriously. It may be at the over 35 level, but hey. Take what you can get.

The thing is, the more people who dance and talk about it, the more people will dance. If the image of ballroom dance can be popularized in this country, perhaps, a generation or two down the line, the US can make itself felt on the world stage. You never know. Now, we're back to that individual initiative and personal vision thing. I'm old, and I'll never be big on the dance scene. All I can do is dance and have fun. But can I help somebody in the generation behind me? Yes. And you never know where that may go.

[SDsalsaguy]

Everyone should be given the oportunity and encouragement to dance, and the younger the better. It just seems to me that given the current world situation, even those who start in high school are unlikely to have a big impact on the world scene. BUT, this is only a trend, not a rule... Chris gives the example of Mark Sheldon, to which I'd like to add that Carmen, the reigning world pro Latin champion, started at age 17.

Also, I don't think that this is a reason -- in any way shape or form -- not to encourage and assist as as many people as possible find their way into dancing. Competition is great, but it is far from the best thing about ballroom dancing.

[etchuck]

Geez... take off a couple of days for intensive work, and I miss this discussion. Too many potentials points...

First, I also want to point out, there are other ways outside just a high school for one to expose young people to ballroom dancing. Many suburban communities out there underwrite arts programs, and some of the local instructors here also teach ballroom dance or salsa or swing under those auspices.

Financial disparities, of course... you're going to have them no matter what club you're in. High school clubs hold fundraisers, and if there are enough parents who believe in that club, there will be boosters. PTA organizations can also chip in some money if they deem it fit. But I think we'll have to wait until one of us has kids in a school and be involved in a PTA to suggest... hey, how about a swing/salsa night at our school? I know a few people who could teach it maybe as volunteers.

Certainly the idea for holding a dance or a competition at a high school is appealing, though I think you need some "in" to be sure you can hold it there. The Victorian Country Ball we had here was held in a middle school gym, and I'm sure we paid people to use that facility.

But you have to make the kids think that doing ballroom dancing is actually appealing. You won't be able to get everyone, but perhaps with the upcoming Shall We Dance movie and the Dirty Dancing movie, we can hope for some increased interest in partner dancing in general. I wouldn't hold my breath though.

Seriously, I would probably have you guys pitch to high school principals for NEXT academic year to see if you could volunteer some time at the school to teach swing/lindy or salsa specifically for a dance in the fall semester (or ballroom for a big prom in the spring... if that's what people want to do). See how that goes.

[pygmalion]

You have some great ideas, etchuck. Hmm. Must ponder. :wink: :D

[tasche]

I think having the proper equipment for any sport or activity increases the chances of sucess. If when I started I asked my parents to buy me pair of $120 shoes I would and was shot down.

If you start clubs to dance in the High Schools to feed into the colleges then eventually they will develop teams in the Middle Schools to feed into the HS's like they do other kinds of dance teams.

Its all very fine and well to say "oh well if they start in Highschool they'll never be champions". So? Is that EVEN the point.

Its also all very well to say as an adult with control over your own money to say "if it really means that much to you'll find a way to buy shoes" When I was working as a checkout chick in the local market years ago when I was 16 I made about $50 after tax for the few hours I could work. It doesn't go a long way.

I come from a background of middle school and high schools teams that had squat in the way of money and resources and its not bc the school or parents were"poor" so my angle is I love my sport/art and want to support it as it does nothing but benefit me and the sport in the long term

[Chris Stratton]

I'm not sure I buy the high school -> college feader program idea.

It's my gut feeling that people who start in high school or before and get onto a serious training track aimed at the increasingly youthful IDSF scene are by the time they hit college going to need training in a very personalized manner. While it's possibly they may sort of become heros/friends of the regulars on a college team, they aren't really going to benefit as members of an organizating fundamentally geared towards group training for those who begin in college. (Though I guess you could have something approaching a ballroom academy by getting a numbe of those couples at the same school... that might be interesting)

In a way, I almost wonder if we should largely ignore the ISDF scene, because I think that the way dance can be taught to college-age people may be more meaningful and interesting than the kind of canned performance geared training that is probably necessary to get adolescents on an early road to stardom.

But then generalizations are never fair...

...and I just realized that I had completely forgotten the possibility of people dancing as a hobby in high school and continuing that way in college - doing some competition, perhaps, but not dedicating their lives to being the next world champions. (Perhaps it's just that's the only type of younger dancers I've run across?)

[Sagitta]

Give me a year or two and I'll be out there in the schools, big time. That will be my community service. Implementing dance in schools is good and team competitions works for some, but there are many who wouldn't or can't join teams. There should also be programs to enmesh dance into the fabric of the kids social lives.

[tasche]

The less serious dancers is what I was referring to as opposed to world class dancer which require a combination of phusical attributes/training/partnership/support etc. Too mch of a complicated mix to try aiming for at first. I think the goals should be more modest. The system came out of NZ was everyone in their first year of middle school was "forced" to do ballroom 2x a weekas part of the PE program. at the end of the winter those stll intrested joined the team w afterschool practices/lesson. Not much in the way of one on one but lots of firendly comps with local schools and at regular comps. This continued on in the locals highschools and some unis like ehre have teams as well.

The approach I would like to see is like rugby where most ppl play football at some level ( in NZ rugby has different divions at hs so everyone cna play not sure if its the same here but its similar to the bronze/silver/electroplated gold system) and alot after hs join the local varsity team or the local community team. Strictly a hobby but out of hobby comes the good stuff eventually. Ever noticed how many champs have parent who danced? So really we're after ppls kids in creating the champs of the future

Tasche (who just realised that shes not as old as she thought she was (YET)

[KevinL]

Give me a year or two and I'll be out there in the schools, big time. That will be my community service.
Is community service one of the conditions of your parole?

- Just kidding, those two sentences together made me think that you were in prison and would be getting out in a year or two. I think it'

[Genesius Redux]

Give me a year or two and I'll be out there in the schools, big time. That will be my community service.
Is community service one of the conditions of your parole?

- Just kidding, those two sentences together made me think that you were in prison and would be getting out in a year or two. I think it'

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[etchuck]

It's interesting you make the disctinction between competition and lifetime skills. Actually, I used to be in the competition level equivalent of a music program. You know, the crazy people with bohemian clothes and unkempt hair, who go around writing music and taking practice and theory classes three or four periods a day. (Wonderful memories :D About thirty percent of my class ended up doing music professionally. I had security issues, so I went the safe route. :? )

Okay... I don't have a picture of you to try to imagine you as a musical bohemian in a conservatory...

My old high school focused more on "lifetime sports" like tennis, golf, bowling, and fencing over more traditional rough-and-tumble sports like basketball, football, and soccer. Not exactly sure why, but that's the way it was then.

Anyway, here's the deal. A value of university dance teams that I see is providing a viable pool of talent to step up and represent their country or community in the competitive dance world's next generation. Maybe these teams are a way to make the US more of a force on the world scene?

And, incidentally, this is not a US-specific topic, is it? Aren't there university dance teams all over the world?

To answer the last question first, there are British universities with ballroom dance teams (you can google that), and they have their own little circuit of "friendlies" and their own university championships. I'm sure there are similar competitions in other countries, particularly British-legacy nations, among their university programmes.

The first question... that's why USABDA has it's youth and college network (YCN). Through that, they are trying to identify new talent to promote them to become the next generation of ballroom competitors and instructors. There is also Brigham Young University's exemplary ballroom dance program, which does churn out some of the best ballroom dancing talent in the country; they apparently are so good, they're not part of the USABDA YCN.

[Sagitta]

Give me a year or two and I'll be out there in the schools, big time. That will be my community service.
Is community service one of the conditions of your parole?

- Just kidding, those two sentences together made me think that you were in prison and would be getting out in a year or two. I think it'

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I actually in a prison of sorts. I'm too bad to teach others right now. :cry: Actually, if I was in prison I would never be able to get US citizenship!! Is that a good thing? :? I'm getting really confused here. This is a dance forum, not a philosphical...forum for ethical/moral issues.

[Warren J. Dew]

If the image of ballroom dance can be popularized in this country, perhaps, a generation or two down the line, the US can make itself felt on the world stage.
The U.S. is already making it felt on the world stage. We have a Standard couple in the top three, ahead of everyone else but the British. We've had couples in the finals of the British Open in both Standard and Latin. In terms of quality, the U.S. is higher than any other non-British nation already.

While I think it would be great to increase participation in high schools and colleges, I don't think that quantity automatically translates to quality, especially at world competitive levels. Back when Victor Fung started dancing, he had basically no competition in his age group, and that doesn't seem to have held him back. Judging by that example, a very supportive family and good coaches are more important.

[Kitty]

If the image of ballroom dance can be popularized in this country, perhaps, a generation or two down the line, the US can make itself felt on the world stage.
The U.S. is already making it felt on the world stage. We have a Standard couple in the top three, ahead of everyone else but the British. We've had couples in the finals of the British Open in both Standard and Latin. In terms of quality, the U.S. is higher than any other non-British nation already.

I disagree. Except British, Italians and Russians. Also, lots of couples representing other countries have at least one partner from Russia or Italy.

One of the greatest features of the US dance scene is that it has social dancing. In Russia it is unheard of. In Russia there is no such thing as a wedding dance. That's why there are so many Russian pros teaching in the US: much more people take dance lessons here (while much less of them compete).

That is the greatest thing! I didn't have to be 10 to start competitive dancing and I wasn't looked down at. To me thats what US is all about: if you want it you can do it, there is nothing I can't do just because I'm a girl or I'm not the right age, or anything else discriminative like that, and it is ok not to be the best in the world, as long as I'm the best I can be. Ok, I have to say there are things that I can't do because I don't have enough money :-)... that a typical US thing...

[Warren J. Dew]

I disagree. Except British, Italians and Russians. Also, lots of couples representing other countries have at least one partner from Russia or Italy.
Well, the top U.S. couple, Jonathan and Katusha, have been beating the top Italian couple, Pino and Bucciarelli, pretty regularly recently ... and do the Russians even have a couple in the final any more? I did except the Brits, who are back to having both the top two spots as of February.

You could argue that Jonathan and Katusha are both immigrants, but I'd respond that the U.S. is a nation of immigrants. I'd also point out that they weren't even making the semifinal at Blackpool when they got together, so much of their improvement has been in the U.S.

[edit] Don't get me wrong - this is not to discourage anyone in the collegiate ranks, and I'd love to see a top ranked couple emerge from those ranks. I'm just saying that no matter where you start, dedication, support, and good coaching are more important than numbers. But the numbers in the collegiate scene certainly make it more fun!

[Kitty]

I disagree. Except British, Italians and Russians. Also, lots of couples representing other countries have at least one partner from Russia or Italy.
Well, the top U.S. couple, Jonathan and Katusha, have been beating the top Italian couple, Pino and Bucciarelli, pretty regularly recently ... and do the Russians even have a couple in the final any more? I did except the Brits, who are back to having both the top two spots as of February.

You could argue that Jonathan and Katusha are both immigrants, but I'd respond that the U.S. is a nation of immigrants. I'd also point out that they weren't even making the semifinal at Blackpool when they got together, so much of their improvement has been in the U.S.

[edit] Don't get me wrong - this is not to discourage anyone in the collegiate ranks, and I'd love to see a top ranked couple emerge from those ranks. I'm just saying that no matter where you start, dedication, support, and good coaching are more important than numbers. But the numbers in the collegiate scene certainly make it more fun!

Katusha Demidova is Russian , as most of Ballroom on the fifth studio is.

[Chris Stratton]

Katusha Demidova is Russian , as most of Ballroom on the fifth studio is.

Okay, then several of the Brits are really Australian. But there is little worry about that, since as dancers they have made their home in England. Should it be different for Russians in America?

Of course if you go by where the couple's coaches hail from, then perhaps most of the world should be representing England. Instead we just mentally push aside the Worlds and substitite the British Open as the defintive competition - and this is not an irrelevent thought, because at the Worlds there can only be 2 couples representing each nation, wheras any number of couples from a country can enter the British Open.

[Genesius Redux]

You could argue that Jonathan and Katusha are both immigrants, but I'd respond that the U.S. is a nation of immigrants.

Hey, I saw that film strip in junior high! :wink:

Identity these days is post-national. Does national origin even really mean anything anymore, when dancers and coaches are international, choosing the countries sometimes in which they live and train?

[Kitty]

Katusha Demidova is Russian , as most of Ballroom on the fifth studio is.

Okay, then several of the Brits are really Australian. But there is little worry about that, since as dancers they have made their home in England. Should it be different for Russians in America?

Of course if you go by where the couple's coaches hail from, then perhaps most of the world should be representing England. Instead we just mentally push aside the Worlds and substitite the British Open as the defintive competition - and this is not an irrelevent thought, because at the Worlds there can only be 2 couples representing each nation, wheras any number of couples from a country can enter the British Open.

Ok now I have time to explain my point fully. For professional dancers that immigrate to another country, it was made possible to immigrate and to achieve so high because of the training they received early on as amateurs. People who immigrate to US to compete as professionals are special kind of people - it is not America that made them this way. But it is the US that gave them the opportunity to grow as professionals.

In professional ballroom I'd rate America as first or second. But not in amateur. Both are equally important. But I think we started the discussion as whether US will go up on world scene because of the college graduates competing. I think not. However, they might affect it in another way: college students and college graduates would promote ballroom dance, and raise a generation of top amateur competitors.

As to professional field, I think US strategy is to import top amateurs and make them top professionals:-). There is nothing wrong with that, but I'd give the country that trained those immigrants some credit.

[pygmalion]

Darn! I wish I had time to reply fully. But please go check out the "Importing Dance Pros" thread, and comment, if you want.

It's so nice to have some new ballroom people on board! :D :banana:

[etchuck]

In professional ballroom I'd rate America as first or second. But not in amateur. Both are equally important. But I think we started the discussion as whether US will go up on world scene because of the college graduates competing. I think not. However, they might affect it in another way: college students and college graduates would promote ballroom dance, and raise a generation of top amateur competitors. (emphasis mine)

Great point, especially as I consider myself one of the group that fit that group's description. As I think most people would

[Chris Stratton]

There is the shadowy hint of an issue hanging over american amateur dancing, and to the extend that it has substance it is going to need to be resolved in one way or the other before the US can be a major amateur power.

Increasingly, US amateur dancing is trending towards trying to directly immitate the showmanship of professional dancing, with a corresponding de-emphasis on the clean basic technique stressed by the English amateur tradition. Much of this may simply be the enthusiasm of youth - but while youth is in everywhere, the new contenders for the top US amateur ranks are not only young, but are being coached and judged by some relatively young pros who have more independence than those who work under the shadow of a longer tradition.

If this is a real issue, there are two ways it could change - one is that 'new style' amateurs dissapointed when they encounter traditional judging may start to take more interest in some of the issues that are important to the classical judges (and perhaps teach these concepts to their eventual students from the start). The other way is that a newer community of coaches and judges may manage a global change in the expectations of what good amateur dancing should look like. A lot really depends on which competitions hold or gain the spotlight, and who is invited to judge there.

Before I give the wrong impression, let me stress that I am talking about very, very small visual differences in dancing - but then that's how the winners are chosen in a close final. And it's not like one group of people has no interest in what is valued by the other - rather it's a potential issue of relative priorities - how developing dancers should allocate their efforts across the many things to be mastered.

[etchuck]

You hit a very interesting point, Chris. That was one of the questions I had when it came to getting judges for our competition down here. Most of our judges are relatively younger professionals or champion amateurs. I am not so sure about the differences in an emphasis in technique over showmanship, but as I try to iron out my problems in technique, I'm not sure how much it impresses the judges, especially the cohort of judges at our competitions. I cannot say based on the entire group of competitions as a whole on the college-organized level, but for the most part, I think the focus on more showmanship than technique may be caused by our own judges (who are in fact also our own instructors). So when we get to competing on an international basis...

[Kitty]

I saw the difference on the video of a jive final (Yale) Couple from our team (he got 2nd) was going complitely crazy :-), the guy was almost flying, great style. Couple right next to them (won first) wasn't as jumpy, didn't had the great arm movements, but had straight bodies, good posture (the guy from our team leans and bends his back sometimes).

Even after seeing this other couple, I still disagree with the judgement: our couple's basic was better, and they had so much jive personality. But technique (or I should say the abscence of apparent mistakes) won.

I could send you the video.

[Warren J. Dew]

In professional ballroom I'd rate America as first or second. But not in amateur.
That's because until recently, American amateurs were actually amateur, while continental European "amateurs" were actually state sponsored, semiprofessional or professional. So when you compare Americans to Europeans at IDSF "amateur" competitions, you're really comparing apples to oranges. In Europe, the IDSF competitions are essentially a secondary professional circuit, like the minor leagues in baseball.

So, should continental European countries get credit for being able to train people to the top of the minor leagues? Well, the U.S. didn't have a minor league pro circuit, so a direct quality comparison isn't possible, but I think it's far from obvious that Europe is doing better. I will give them credit for quantity, though.

[pygmalion]

So if American dancers are excellent dancers and ready to compete, why don't they win? Is it because of prejudice (the game is stacked against them? ) Is it because of a lack of early training? High quality training? Lack of focus? What role can/should the American government or NGO's/sponsors play?

What is going on? (Maybe this should be a different thread. :oops: :lol: )

[Warren J. Dew]

You hit a very interesting point, Chris. That was one of the questions I had when it came to getting judges for our competition down here. Most of our judges are relatively younger professionals or champion amateurs. I am not so sure about the differences in an emphasis in technique over showmanship, but as I try to iron out my problems in technique, I'm not sure how much it impresses the judges, especially the cohort of judges at our competitions.
I think that a significant number of the judges on the college circuit today haven't actually taken any examinations, so they may not even have a detailed knowledge of the technique on which to judge.

I'm hesitant to suggest a change, as I think it's easily possible to go too far in the other direction - such as in some activities where the judges have to pass exams but don't need any actual experience doing the activity - but I do think it would be nice to encourage those younger professionals to take their exams if they have not already done so.

[pygmalion]

I've been tempted to start a thread on that many times -- meaning, what qualifications are required to become a judge? Hmm.. Maybe I shouldn't. :? Or maybe I should? :?

How does one pick judges for an event?

[Warren J. Dew]

So if American dancers are excellent dancers and ready to compete, why don't they win? Is it because of prejudice (the game is stacked against them? ) Is it because of a lack of early training? High quality training? Lack of focus? What role can/should the American government or NGO's/sponsors play?
I'm sure there are lots of opinions on this, but here are mine:

If you are comparing to the Brits, it's the training - the Brits have relatively high densities of people who have been and trained world champions, within a small enough area where a good couple can conveniently take from many of them. There are good coaches in the U.S., but they are scattered, and sometimes you need more than one point of view.

If you are comparing to other countries, I would say:

- At a pro level, we do win. In addition to Jonathan and Katusha, Gary and Diana MacDonald won the world professional ten dance championships outright a few years ago.

- At a semiprofessional (IDSF) level, the U.S. doesn't really compete: people are mostly either amateur or compete on the pro circuit. Personally, I don't particularly see this as an issue, as I don't see this circuit as all that important.

- At a true amateur level, there isn't an international circuit. I'd like to see one created, but it would probably have to be limited to the English speaking nations and the Pacific Rim, where there's a significant amateur tradition.

That said, I am not surprised at Larinda McRaven's observation in another thread, about immigrant parents wanting their kids to work hard and improve, while nonimmigrant parents were more likely to be looking for something fun for the kid to do. It seems to me that there's an attitude in the U.S. that anything to do with the arts should be purely creative and not involve hard work - and that just doesn't work in competitive ballroom.

How to fix it? I'm not sure, maybe instill a hard working attitude in one's kids when one has them? I will note that this is an area where immigrant dancers may often have a more productive attitude.

Above all, I think we need to keep in mind a comment, I believe by Henry Jacques, that "it takes thirty years to make a champion". If you want to do something from scratch, you need a long time frame - quick fixes are unlikely to work, no matter how fond Americans are of them.