Lead/Follow Ratio at Dances

[pygmalion]

Here's an observation. I'm wondering if anyone else has seen the same thing. At the ballroom dances I attend, it's very rare that there are enough men to go around. Usually, women have to sit out dances. At the salsa events I attend, it seems to be the other way around. (Not sure about swing. I don't do a lot of swing socially yet. )

Case in point: Yesterday, at the Jesus Morales workshops, there weren't enough women. Last night, at the ballroom dance, there were at least two women for every guy. Tonight, I've been asked to help my salsa teacher by attending her beginner salsa classes to parter the guys -- not enough women again. (BTW -- peachexploration, are you going?)

Am I imagining things? Or do others see the same thing? :?

[Sagitta]

My observations....

ballroom dances: followers>leaders,

local contra: leaders > followers,

contra dance with well known group, such as "Wild Asparagus" followers~leaders,

latin: leaders> followers,

swing (lindy) followers > leaders


What about group classes?

I just started a lindy class, and also for my beginner swing class a while back there were more leaders then follows; the exact opposite of the dance scene!

[SDsalsaguy]

In the more intermediate (vs. beg.) ballroom group classes I'm in there are way more leaders then followers :(

[peachexploration]

Here's an observation. I'm wondering if anyone else has seen the same thing. At the ballroom dances I attend, it's very rare that there are enough men to go around. Usually, women have to sit out dances. At the salsa events I attend, it seems to be the other way around. (Not sure about swing. I don't do a lot of swing socially yet. )

Case in point: Yesterday, at the Jesus Morales workshops, there weren't enough women. Last night, at the ballroom dance, there were at least two women for every guy. Tonight, I've been asked to help my salsa teacher by attending her beginner salsa classes to parter the guys -- not enough women again. (BTW -- peachexploration, are you going?)

Am I imagining things? Or do others see the same thing? :?

Hi Pygmalion. Yes, I will be there tonight for both classes. I've been to quite a few classes and a couple of schools this year and have seen the same problem over and over again when it comes to Salsa. A respected Salsa Instructor has had this to say about learning in a group setting:

In large group instruction settings, the scenario for neophyte dancers usually unfolds something like this: The men have no idea what the word "lead" means as they are absorbed in the more elementary task of ungluing their feet from the floor and sorting out which one is which. The ladies decide to lead themselves rather than standing around for eternity waiting for a lead that never comes. By the time the men start trying to lead the ladies, the ladies are in the habit of moving before they've felt the lead. Then the men start shoving and pushing the ladies so that they feel like their "leading" is producing some effects. Then the ladies complain that the men are too rough ...

I've seen the above in action first hand and heard from many followers including myself. What usually happens is you start out with a good group in the beginning and then the number of followers start to dwindle and by the end of the session, all you end up with is mostly leaders in salsa class. Another reason it's difficult in a group setting is because alot of times you're switching partners which means once you get use to one person, you're asked to switch and you have to get used to another person altogether.

This is only one scenario and I'm sure there are hundreds of reasons why this happens. This does not mean to minimize the man's/leader's role in any way. Leading is very hard work and it takes alot of practice before it becomes second nature. If you're a "Beginning Leader", I imagine it can be a bit overwhelming. There is so much to think about: Music, direction, moves, etc. A note to beginning followers is patience, patience, patience. I know it can be frustrating but wait for the lead, it will come.

As a follower, a similar problem happened with me. I was having a terrible problem with giving up the lead, standing still (so to speak) and surrendering myself. :D I'm much better at it now because I've found an instructor that concentrates on leading/following, not learning choreography.

On a happy note, I kinda liked having more men than women yesterday. Almost like we had the guys all to ourselves. :D :oops: :D :wink:

[pygmalion]

Hey peachexploration!

Yay! See you tonight. :D

Another reason it's difficult in a group setting is because alot of times you're switching partners which means once you get use to one person, you're asked to switch and you have to get used to another person altogether.

Believe it or not, this is why I like group classes. You learn to dance with all sorts of different guys, which increases the chance you're actually following, not just used to your partner and anticipating what he's going to do. *shrug* Just another perspective. What do you think?

[SDsalsaguy]

This only works if you're actually waiting for the lead Jenn... too many people take a class and, because they know what the pattern is, auto pilot it regardless of the lead follow dynamics involved with their given "partner."

[Spitfire]

Here it's usually more follows then leads.

[pygmalion]

So true, SD. That's why I said increases the chance. Some people dance whatever the teacher is calling out, regardless of what's being led.

Some of the responsibility for this is with the teachers, too, though. There needs to be a way for them to incorporate lead/follow into their classes. Maybe allowing one or two freestyle practice sessions into the class -- where leaders actually have to lead, and followers follow? I don't know. But there's gotta be a better way.

[Swing Kitten]

--note to self: learn salsa---

[SDsalsaguy]

--note to self: dance *tons* of salsa with Sk--

[danceguy]

I've noticed at both dance class and the social dances (by the local schools)on the average there tends to be usually an equal number of leads and follows...usually with a few more followers most of the time. At my first dance ever, there were actually more leads, and I had to go through part of the lesson with a male partner...and I wasn't happy about that at all! :evil:

In my Ballroom, Latin and Swing classes, it's been pretty equal though...but again, there always tends to be an extra follower or two.

Funny story though. A few months back when I went to my first (and only so far) live Salsa event, I got all geared up to go and then chickened out when the lesson started on an outdoor dance floor (with about 500+ people watching!). The floor was PACKED..and as I finally got some courage to get closer...I noticed something very interesting...there was a huge lack of leaders...to the point that there were many ladies dancing together.

Suddenly I see this utterly gorgeous woman walk by...looking quite dissapointed for some reason. I started to get up...and noticed that she almost walked up to me...but then she sort of stood watching the lesson almost sadly, seemingly like she wanted to find a dance partner (read below how I learned she was doing exactly that!).

Anyway, I continued to hide in the crowd of onlookers until I bumped into a friend who did some Salsa and I asked her to dance. We had danced a few numbers (if you can call what I was doing dancing!), and then I saw the woman I had seen earlier.

Not only was this girl utterly breathtaking physically speaking (to me at least)...but she was the best dancer there by far...and there were some really great Salser/oas that were steaming up the dance floor. By the end of the concert she was up with one guy in the center of the floor doing some amazing solo shines...and I was speechless...man could that lady dance...and you could see the music as she expressed it in her movements...she even outdanced the guy she was with who was trying like heck to match her pace...and while he was good...she almost seemed to be holding back for his sake.

It was a lesson I'll never forget, which applies to all leads: If there's a shortage of men and a lady is trying to find a partner, GET OFF YOUR BUTT AND ASK HER TO DANCE! :)

[Danish Guy]

Another reason it's difficult in a group setting is because alot of times you're switching partners which means once you get use to one person, you're asked to switch and you have to get used to another person altogether.


I think this is positive. :)

You don’t end up with couples getting the routines fast, and couples never getting it.
You help each other. And you get to know each other.

Especially in the start, it’s easier to dance at the parties with somebody you recognise from class.

[SDsalsaguy]

Yes, and aside from the balancing factor Danish Guy's mentioning, it also means that when you are leading and following it's generalizable leading and following rather then just viable with one person's quirks.

[Danish Guy]

Some people dance whatever the teacher is calling out, regardless of what's being led.
...............
But there's gotta be a better way.

This is where I get nasty, and lead something completely different. :twisted:

Do I get her attention and wake her up, sure :shock: :twisted:

Then it’s possible to test the lead, and not only the footwork. :shock: :D

[Danish Guy]

It was a lesson I'll never forget, which applies to all leads: If there's a shortage of men and a lady is trying to find a partner, GET OFF YOUR BUTT AND ASK HER TO DANCE! :)

I have always done that. If there have been missing leaders at the beginner classes, I have joined whenever possible, so the ladies won't have to wait for the next "change partners" call.

And it never hurt to repeat/rehearse the basics. 8)

[peachexploration]

So true, SD. That's why I said increases the chance. Some people dance whatever the teacher is calling out, regardless of what's being led.

Some of the responsibility for this is with the teachers, too, though. There needs to be a way for them to incorporate lead/follow into their classes. Maybe allowing one or two freestyle practice sessions into the class -- where leaders actually have to lead, and followers follow? I don't know. But there's gotta be a better way.

When I wrote:
Another reason it's difficult in a group setting is because alot of times you're switching partners which means once you get use to one person, you're asked to switch and you have to get used to another person altogether.

Sorry, I should have elaborated a little more. I didn't mean it was a bad thing to regularly switch partners. Alot of the time, you're pushed directly into learning patterns in Salsa. The men are told to lead it and women to follow and you hear 123, 567 and then you switch partners and if you didn't get it with the last partner, you and your new partner are both like "what the......" :lol:

A way to remedy this is: Take Jesus' last session yesterday on musicality and styling. After that session, I saw alot of "Aha" :o reactions and Leaders/Followers were dancing much better and more playfully. (Even after switching partners) He talked specifically to the leaders briefly about rhythm and body movement and active listening to the music. To me, classes like this should be taught first. He said at the beginning of the workshop, "For every action (leader), there is a reaction (follower). Remember the slight turn of a followers hand that made their whole body turn?

For a beginner, in a group setting where you're switching partners often, you're not taught how "feel" the other person/music right way so it makes it difficult for leaders and followers to relate to each other. Alot of times, you really don't get that until there's a styling class of some sort. So it may contribute to decreased class attendance because of frustration for both roles. Especially, if you don't have natural knack for rhythm. Just my opinion. :)

[peachexploration]

Some people dance whatever the teacher is calling out, regardless of what's being led.
...............
But there's gotta be a better way.

This is where I get nasty, and lead something completely different. :twisted:

Do I get her attention and wake her up, sure :shock: :twisted:

Then it’s possible to test the lead, and not only the footwork. :shock: :D

I love when this happens! This happens to me all the time in class and it makes me a better follower. :D

[pygmalion]

I see what you mean now, peachexploration. I think it's unfortunate how often people aren't taught to "feel" anything at all. Just execute the patterns.

BTW, I thought the musicality class yesterday was hilarious, especially the part where people were asked to do the hip-hop arms. Hehe! Some people found it easier than others, to say the least. But I agree with you. By the end of class, people seemed to feel a lot more free to express their personalities and what the music was telling them.

[Sarah]

I see what you mean now, peachexploration. I think it's unfortunate how often people aren't taught to "feel" anything at all. Just execute the patterns.


So a question for everybody - how did you learn to -feel- the lead/follow thing? How about the music? And how long had you been learning when it happened?

Cheers
Sarah

[will35]

I am not a teacher, so I just really don't understand much about dancing. But I think teachers sometimes exaggerate the difficulty of leading and following and it slows students down. My wife and I took a class once in a dance we had never even seen. The teacher danced with my wife for just a few seconds and then started to do moves that she had no idea how to do. The teacher was not surprised that she did every move perfectly. Everybody in the class thought she knew the dance. She didn't. How did it happen? It happened because leading and following are the most natural things on earth. The man moves. If the woman wants to dance with him, she goes, too. If he knows where he is going, she has no problem following him. Of course, that makes the man's part more difficult, and so many teachers don't like to accept that fact. That is why there are fewer men at the dances. It is a little harder for the man. They normally wimp out in the group classes when the women learn their parts more quickly.

[Sarah]

I am not a teacher, so I just really don't understand much about dancing. But I think teachers sometimes exaggerate the difficulty of leading and following and it slows students down. My wife and I took a class once in a dance we had never even seen. The teacher danced with my wife for just a few seconds and then started to do moves that she had no idea how to do. The teacher was not surprised that she did every move perfectly. Everybody in the class thought she knew the dance. She didn't. How did it happen? It happened because leading and following are the most natural things on earth.
.......After you've been practicing for a while. Your wife had had some dance experience?
The man moves. If the woman wants to dance with him, she goes, too.
.....unless he is making it physically impossible for her to do so. Beginner leaders do this more frequently than you might think.

If he knows where he is going, she has no problem following him. Of course, that makes the man's part more difficult, and so many teachers don't like to accept that fact.
Oh? I think most teachers are quite aware that what the beginning leader is being asked to do is well nigh impossible! What I am looking for, in my role as an assistant instructor is the easiest and most painless way of getting blokes over the multitasking hump. I have some ideas some more workable than others[1], but want to see what others come up with first.

Cheers
Sarah

[1] f'rinstance, I think that the one involving the ego supression device and the army of well trained, infinitely patient robot followers is still in the realms of science fiction, or at least beyond our budget. ;)

[will35]

I guess I don't really have any workable ideas, so I can't help the forum much with that. I guess that is why I am not a teacher. But, if the purpose is to lead and follow, why tell the students that there is a little pattern that they must learn first? The woman is sure to learn the pattern fairly quickly, and that is the end of leading and following. Why not just put the two people together, and say, "Now, walk together around the room"? The man can stop whenever he wants, and the woman feels that he wants to stop. They should be able to walk before they can learn any steps. This gives them room to move to the music, too.
I think my wife is just a natural, but I am still nearly convinced that everybody is a natural. That is, everybody can walk. Walking together is not that much more difficult.

[Sarah]

I guess I don't really have any workable ideas, so I can't help the forum much with that. I guess that is why I am not a teacher. But, if the purpose is to lead and follow, why tell the students that there is a little pattern that they must learn first?
The woman is sure to learn the pattern fairly quickly, and that is the end of leading and following. Why not just put the two people together, and say, "Now, walk together around the room"? The man can stop whenever he wants, and the woman feels that he wants to stop. They should be able to walk before they can learn any steps. This gives them room to move to the music, too.
I think my wife is just a natural, but I am still nearly convinced that everybody is a natural. That is, everybody can walk. Walking together is not that much more difficult.

Wouldn't that be nice - a classful of beginners that would walk purposefully 'round the room until they had established a connection with their partner...... unfortunately they have a tendency to start asking awkward questions like `well when do we start doing some dancing then?'
Actually we do start students out with a merengue[1] and have them move it at random around the room, forwards, backwards, left, right, round in a circle. But soon they want more, and well that's where moves and patterns happen. :?

Cheers
Sarah, who has always been too lazy to memorise patterns, and so has had to get good at following. ;)

[1]which isn't too different from walking, at a superficial level.

[will35]

Perhaps we need all followers to be a little lazy. Sounds like a good system you have.

[brujo]

--note to self: learn salsa---

Nah, there is a lot more groping in salsa than in Lindy or West Coast 8)

[pygmalion]

Note to self: Learn MORE salsa! :lol: :lol:

[redhead]

Whining time:
Why do they say it's easy being a follower?Think about moving backwards on high heels not knowing what's coming next... And newbie leads often actually HURT followers!
I have another problem: I don't do things if there's no lead. In a workshop a couple of weeks ago, quite a few leaders (mostly unexpirienced) gave me an "evil eye" for not doing the pattern. I DO remember it, just you didn't lead! :evil:
OK, I'm done :wink:

[brujo]

Whining time:
Why do they say it's easy being a follower?Think about moving backwards on high heels not knowing what's coming next... And newbie leads often actually HURT followers!


I don't think anyone said being a follower is easy, but for those learning to dance, leading is much harder. Besides struggling with getting the feet right, the leader needs to also worry about dictating the timing, making sure that the pattern he leads can be understood by the follower, getting the music right, etc. On top of that, there is floorcraft in a crowded dance floor, and the most difficult part, finding a woman that is willing to dance with a beginner.

[Sarah]

Whining time:
Why do they say it's easy being a follower?Think about moving backwards on high heels not knowing what's coming next...
I didn't say anything of the kind - both roles are difficult to do well but they are completely different skill sets. Having done both, I do think that initially the beginning leader has the more difficult task - paticularly if they are actually being expected to lead rather than just signal the next move or even worse be at the right place at the right time in some prearranged choreography.

And newbie leads often actually HURT followers!

Not good, not good at all. If the force is going beyond what you can absorb with your muscles its time for a pre-emptive ouch or two, and possibly a detailed explanation that your elbows really aren't designed to bend in that direction.

I have another problem: I don't do things if there's no lead. In a workshop a couple of weeks ago, quite a few leaders (mostly unexpirienced) gave me an "evil eye" for not doing the pattern. I DO remember it, just you didn't lead! :evil:
OK, I'm done :wink:

OK - not doing things if there is no lead is the ideal. That's what we're aiming at. It's a bit pointless however if your newbie lead doesn't know that's what's supposed to be going on. They will sometimes even think that you're doing it on purpose to make them look stupid. If I thought that, I'd be p***ed too!
What I occasionally do is explain that their leads should not have to pass through my brain on their way to my feet. I also tell them - this is a bit more salsa-specific I think - that my hips will follow my elbows, and my feet will respond to my hips when my weight isn't on them.
Once the intellectualising is done then you have to train your newbie leader. I reward them when they even get it vaguely right by doing my bit as well as I can. I ignor it when they get it wrong - they know it's wrong and don't need me to bruise their ego further.

Cheers
Sarah <training wheels for newbie-leads>

[/quote]

[pygmalion]

OK - not doing things if there is no lead is the ideal. That's what we're aiming at. It's a bit pointless however if your newbie lead doesn't know that's what's supposed to be going on.

Sarah <training wheels for newbie-leads>



Yup, Sarah. Inexperienced leads often either don't know how to lead the pattern, don't realize they haven't led it, or don't know they're leading something entirely different. But if you follow what you think they intended to lead, you're not helping them at all in the long run. That way, they never get the feedback they need to improve as leaders. I like you r approach of "training" the newbie leaders. :D A win-win for everybody.

[Sagitta]

Why not just put the two people together, and say, "Now, walk together around the room"? The man can stop whenever he wants, and the woman feels that he wants to stop. They should be able to walk before they can learn any steps.

I like the idea of just walking around the room to get the idea of lead/follow.

OK - not doing things if there is no lead is the ideal. That's what we're aiming at. It's a bit pointless however if your newbie lead doesn't know that's what's supposed to be going on. They will sometimes even think that you're doing it on purpose to make them look stupid. If I thought that, I'd be p***ed too!

Maybe the newbie leaders look "p****d" because they are angry with themselves.


An aside?:
I'm new to a lot of this dancing, and I feel bad when I execute poorly. (I, however, usually have an embarrassed smile :oops: :) ) If I ever did get angry with a follower I would not show it. After all I have asked this person to share a few minutes with me, or agreed to share this time with her if she asks me. It's not a lifetime commitment. (This also applies in classes where there is partner switching as the tacit agreement in attending is 100% participation.)

So, here's a recent unpleasant dance experience when the follower was the culprit. Or...maybe the fault was mine as I still am a salsa newbie and as quite a few people say it's ALWAYS the LEADER's FAULT:

There was this salsa dance at Cornell last week and I danced with this follower who kept jumping around. There was no way that I could tame that bopping around so I could "feel" her. Forget about frame, and any of the lead/follow basics. If she kept yanking her arms around how could I prep her for a move? I couldn't do closed position as my feet were being killed. I tried solo dancing, but she looked completely lost, and was happier when we were in some sort of hand hold. So I just smiled at the ridiculous situation, did the best I could, and didn't ask her to dance again that night.

[Sarah]

Maybe the newbie leaders look "p****d" because they are angry with themselves.

Granted, there's a lot of room for miscommunication and misinterpretation, paticularly in a situation where you are unsure of yourself and driven into a situation of unaccustomed physical proximity and pretty intimate non verbal communication.
I do tend to cut people quite a lot of slack before drawing harsh conclusions like the one above. What I am trying to say is I understand the p***ed looks, whoever they're directed at, and I really don't take them personally.

So, here's a recent unpleasant dance experience when the follower was the culprit. Or...maybe the fault was mine as I still am a salsa newbie and as quite a few people say it's ALWAYS the LEADER's FAULT:

I think that most people who have experienced the dance floor realise that mistakes are made on both sides. It's just that to a spectator, a mistake usually shows up in the follower's movement, regardless of who made it. Partner dancing, being the last bastion of gallantry that it is :? the mistake is assumed to be the leader's.... but that's a bit of a mouthful!

Anyhow I'm sure that anyone who thinks they could do better with the same partner would have been welcome to ask her. ;) Sounds like you did the best you could in an awkward situation - hope you had some good dances too.

Cheers
Sarah

[will35]

Well, I think I was probably the one who mentioned the difficulty of being a new leader. But I think that was also not what I really meant. I meant that the difficulties of being lead and leading are different. The followers' problem in many, many cases is just giving up control. The real problem is that it would be easy for the follower to give up control to some dance stud who has been dancing twenty years. Said stud would naturally accept the control, and move the dance around with confidence. On the other hand, a new leader does not really even know there is a relationship between the partners in a dance until someone tells him that he must lead. Even then, it takes a while to sink in. How can a follower give herself up to that?
He thinks that the better he knows the footwork, the better his dance will be. That may be so, and may not be so.
Really, the leader and the follower both have difficult parts, but different kinds of difficult. Just because the follow part is simple (just giving up control and moving with the leader) does not mean it is easy. Simple is almost always difficult. Bear with me please, if you understand only a little of what I am saying. I am always rethinking these things, you know.
I think it is good for the follower to not do what is not lead, but Sarah's post goes a little further to helping the situation in a class.
I am glad I am not a teacher. A teacher has these problems to think through, and even more. What about the fact that everyone learns differently. Some learn by reading books and imitating, some by not knowing anything before trying to execute. Learning by practicing, and learning by learning. A teacher has to come up with something to help everyone in the class, no matter what their style.

[Sarah]

On the other hand, a new leader does not really even know there is a relationship between the partners in a dance until someone tells him that he must lead. Even then, it takes a while to sink in. How can a follower give herself up to that?

With difficulty!:D It's amazingly good following practice though - the newbies pull some really wierd stuff and to follow what they're actually doing, rather than what I think they should have learned, or making up something that makes musical sense to me ... well. :D I do explain what I'm doing - afterwards!

In an ideal world, new leads and new follows should not have to partner each other all the time. They don't need surperbly experienced people either, just someone kind and understanding who can just be steady through mistakes.

Cheers
Sarah

[brujo]

Posted a thread on volunteer instructors eons ago on the salsa forum.

But the best solution ( I find ) is to have people in the classes that are at a higher level. If you give them a creative discount of some sorts, or encourage this as practice, you can have a ton of more advanced dancers in the classes that can help along the leaders and followers.

I think a big mistake in classes is that there are couples that always insist on dancing together, where a more ideal situation would be to dance with a more advanced follow ( who knows the pattern and can back-lead ) or a more advanced leader. The leader gains confidence by doing the move correctly and having a person that can provide good feedback without the emotional burden of the partner. If the follow has gotten the pattern quickly, she would know what feels right when she practices at home and correct the man.