Hip Motion : Salsa vs Latin Rhumba

[rickyT]

Hi,

I’ve learnt and danced Latin (Ballroom) Rhumba for a few years until I started taking Salsa classes (LA style) recently. The hip motion taught by the Salsa teacher is surprisingly different from what I was taught in Rhumba classes. I’d describe the Rhumba hip motion (taught to me) as smooth and swaying, and following the contour of a sleeping ‘figure of 8’. The Salsa hip motion I cannot describe as I’ve yet to master it. I’m surprised there’s a difference since I thought that Salsa evolved from Mambo (which evolved from Rhumba). Can anyone on the Forum with both Salsa and Rhumba experience care to enlighten me.

Rgds,
rickyT

[pygmalion]

Hi rickyT. Welcome to the forums. :D I'm so glad to see your first direct-from-you post! :D

I know what you mean about the apparent differences between salsa, rumba, bolero, etc, but I'm not qualified to give you an in-depth technical answer. I'll leave that to someone else.

Here's an interesting link. http://www.thedancestore.freeservers.com/dances/salsa_tips.htm
It talks about the fact that since salsa is a club or street dance not documented with manuals, many salsa teachers may or may not have the detailed technical breakdown that we as ballroom dancers are used to.


Welcome. :D

[Spitfire]

Welcome RickyT,

Personally, I find hip motion to be easier in salsa then for any of the other latin dances; probably since I keep my feet pretty close together in salsa.

[pygmalion]

You know, rickyT, you really have me thinking this morning!

I don't know whether there are official technical differences between hip motion for salsa and rumba or not, but I personally use a similar action for both. Both generated from the bend/straighten action of the knees and legs, which makes the hips move. The main difference I see is that, since rumba is slower, I have time to articulate or exaggerate each movement more. Same thing with bolero, since it's even slower. But, to me, it appears that the basic movement is the same.

Anybody out there know the technical differences between hip motion for, say, mambo and rumba?

[borikensalsero]

I'm not sure if this will help any since it isn't comming from a ballroom stance but I have my cuban rumba/salsa class tomorrow and I hope to remember to ask my Afro Cuban instructor if there is a difference.

As it is my understanding right this second (Future knowledge might change that), there is no techinical difference between moving the hips in the two aside the body posture/feet placement changing which changes a bit the movement of the hips. When my instructor teaches rumba or salsa she teaches everyone the 'afro cuban' way to move the hips and body. The techniques are the same throughout, however, hip movement changes due to body posture and different steps taken while dancing either dance. The difference really comes at the degree of which the hipps move, and how defined the figure 8 looks in the hipps due to how we are stepping, moving the upper body, and bending the knees. Again, my answer might very well not relate to ballroom at all. I hope not to forget to ask my isntructor about it.

[SDsalsaguy]

To my way of thinking there really isn't a difference kind, just a difference in degree and accentuation. The Cuban motion of rumba comes, as Jenn has suggested, from the leg actions. Since salsa, unlike rumba, does not have a precise flexing/straightening scheme the hip actions associated with rumba never come to full fruition. Also note that most styles of salsa lack the lateral displacements found in ballroom rumba (more in the "slow" side step of International rumba, but also found in the side-together of American), which tends to accentuate the elliptical nature of the hip movements in question. Add to this the discrepancies in dance tempi and I think you have at least the skeleton of the seeming differences in technique that, at least to my way of thinking, still share a common base.

[pygmalion]

Yup, SD. And when you add differences in personal execution and styling to the mix, the basic hip motion can look very different, even if the mechanics are the same.

[Black Sheep]

Ricky T,
Mambo & Rumba have NOTHING in Common. They may appear in the same mold, but they have distinctly different music, different rhythmic accents, different points of delivery, different foot placements, different step patterns, Mambo is uninhibited, Rumba is very controlled and ultra smooth and Mambo hips could never have the 'TIME to do ' CUBAN MOTION' which is the essence of Rumba THAT creates the body action that allows dancers to dance smooth enough to hold full Champaign glasses on their heads without spilling a drop.
Salsa does originate from Mambo and Mambo Originated from Cha Cha Cha or vice versa.
Rumba has a class of dances that are similar, and differ mainly in tempos (speed); from very slow Boleros to frenzied Quarachas.
Black Sheep '12 years of teaching both Mambo and Rumba'.

[SDsalsaguy]

Mambo hips could never have the 'TIME to do ' ...
As you'll notice in my comment above, I fully agree with this. The differences in music tempi are quite significant regarding the actions executed.

The following sentiment, however, is ludicrous in the extreme:Mambo & Rumba have NOTHING in Common.

If you honestly think this after "12 years of teaching both Mambo and Rumba" then I suggest that either (A) you get a refund from your teachers, or (B) you got what you paid for if these too were things you never paid for any lessons in.

[pygmalion]

Yes. I think that's pretty much the point of this thread. Since rumba and mambo (later salsa) ARE so closely related, why does the hip motion associated with the two dances seem to differ? Answer: the basic mechanics of the motion don't differ, but the appearance can be different based on the tempo of the music and person-to-person styling differences.

[Black Sheep]

SDSalsa guy wrote,
"If you ((Joe) honestly think this ( Mambo and Rumba have nothing in common) after 12 years of teaching both Mambo and Rumba" then I suggest that either (A) you get a refund from your teachers, or (B) you got what you paid for if these too were things you never paid for any lessons in."

Dear SD,
First of all SD, you are stealing my Vernacular Lines!
Secondly, if you are quoting me, please do not truncate the quotes: That is the same as taking a statement out of context;
Thirdly, if you agree with the ALL the differences I listed between these Two dances, what is left in common? They do not even originate from the same Caribbean Islands! Rumba is Cuban and Mambo is Puerto Rican.
If you are going to steal my 'Vernacular Lines', then give me YOUR take on where they are similar? And please don't say they are both Latin or negro in origin!
And try dancing the Mambo to Rumba Music or vice versa. And Rots of Ruck!
If you can do that SD, I suggest you to take a course in sensitivity stimulation! Or try Niagra!
Black Sheep 'Mambo was, is, and will always be my first love!'

[pygmalion]

Actually, I don't think there's need for anybody to get testy here. If you do a web search, it's easy to find references all over the place to mambo's relationship to rumba. A couple links are here:

http://www.geocities.com/sd_au/livinghistory/mamboarthur.htm
http://www.geocities.com/sd_au/mambo/sdhmambo2.htm


While you're right Joe, there are differences between the two dances, there are similarities as well. Anyone care to list some, or even better to get back to the topic at hand. Hip motion?

[pygmalion]

Okay. I've allowed half an hour, and nobody's posted! :lol: (I can get impatient) So I'll ask a question. What kinds of exercises did you do to progress from the strict up and down hip motion beginners use to the figure eight hip motion more experienced dancers often use?

[borikensalsero]

Dear SD,
First of all SD, you are stealing my Vernacular Lines!
Secondly, if you are quoting me, please do not truncate the quotes: That is the same as taking a statement out of context;
Thirdly, if you agree with the ALL the differences I listed between these Two dances, what is left in common? They do not even originate from the same Caribbean Islands! Rumba is Cuban and Mambo is Puerto Rican.
If you are going to steal my 'Vernacular Lines', then give me YOUR take on where they are similar? And please don't say they are both Latin or negro in origin!
And try dancing the Mambo to Rumba Music or vice versa. And Rots of Ruck!
If you can do that SD, I suggest you to take a course in sensitivity stimulation! Or try Niagra!
Black Sheep 'Mambo was, is, and will always be my first love!'

Thought I'd take the liberty to put my two cents on this dilema. I must say that yes, while ballroom rumba dancing may be the an extent different than ballroom salsa, Cuban Rumba dancing and Salsa dancing have more than lots in comon. The motions that ricans, cubans, jews, blacks, italians applied to mambo at the palladium came from rumba dancing. The body movement, sway of the hip, the run and chase effect of rumba were indeed incorporated to salsa.

Now, if you want to speak of the version of Rumba in ballroom dancing then by all means debate it out but to the onlooker, the difference is accentuation/body posture/different steeps, the rest is pretty much the same. Remember that without rumba there is no salsa, so saying that they have nothing the same is pretty much a far fetch belief. Even salsa makes use of rumba like musical schemes.

BTW, mambo music is very cuban, what is known as salsa is a relative of mambo. Mambo was first made famous in the US by Perez Prado but was originally created by Arsenio Rodriguez and Orestes Lopez in Cuba. The Mambo back and forth style was created through the 40s and 50s in the US, however, it incorporated a 'crap load' of rumba dancing. Hence, why looking at palladuim video and cuban rumba dance video we'll see the similarity of one and the other. While the differences are obvious their similarities can't be desregarded. Just because todays salsa dancing has taken on a more hustle like style it doesn't mean that rumba was never in it. Thinking that they have nothing in comon means that the homework didn't get a passing grade.

[pygmalion]

:kissme: :notworth:

Thanks, boriken!

[borikensalsero]

:kissme: :notworth:

Thanks, boriken!

:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :bouncy:

[rickyT]

Hi Pymalion,

This is in reply to your query on the excercise to do to acquire the Cuban Hip Motion.

Basically, I just stand on the spot, in front of the mirror, feet slightly apart and use the waist to trace the outline of a horizontal figure of 8. In the initial period (read 'many, many months'), I looked pretty awful because I was using my butt instead of my waist to move! In the beginning just ignore the timing but later you should be able to move in time with the Rhumba timing of 2,3,4,1.

You will know you've acquired IT, when you can trace the figure of 8 with your waist, sitting down on a chair.

rgds,
rickyT

[msc]

The Cuban motion of rumba comes, as Jenn has suggested, from the leg actions.

You will know you've acquired IT, when you can trace the figure of 8 with your waist, sitting down on a chair

It's interesting, I've had teachers talk about using the torso muscles to generate Latin motion, and I've had teachers talk about generating Latin motion "from the floor." Now that I've had a few years of experience trying to refine my motion, I've realized I agree with both.

[pygmalion]

I agree, msc. I had one coach call the leg action "bronze Latin motion" and the movement from the center "silver and above Latin motion." Whatever. You don't necessarily have to agree with the levels he suggested, but I do think that more advanced dancers have both. When I just started though, worrying about what my knees were doing was more than enough to keep me busy! :lol:

[Black Sheep]

Borkin,
Your commentary only agrees with what I said about Mambo and Salsa. But I did not Say Salsa has or doesn't have ANYTHING in common with Rumba, and I made NO reference to where and how the Cuban influence got into Mambo MUSIC.
My Theme was, 'Mambo has NOTHING in Common With Rumba'. And I hope you will give me the privilege of my having referred to the DANCE and NOT to Evolution of the MUSIC.
As for the Cubans, they have always turned out the best Afro Latin dancers and music.
The first dance I learned was the Mambo from Anita Arkin fresh out of New York in 1949. And the first Dance lesson I ever gave was teaching the Rumba figure 8 Cuban Motion to Barbara Snodgrass in the summer of 1949, and who incidentally married R.F. Cage both who live in South Boston, Va..
I know dances evolve, but I can only verify what the pristine Mambo was like when it was introduced in the late 1940's into New York by the mass emigration of Puerto Ricans. And how I danced it throughout the 1950's.
Black Sheep 'It's a fool or a con man who makes statements he can't corroborate'. Joe Lanza 2003 a.d.

[d nice]

.hahaha.

[SDsalsaguy]

'It's a fool or a con man who makes statements he can't corroborate'.
So which are you Joe?

Boriken lays it out in clear language (thanks, by the way, Boriken) that rumba and mambo are related and have similarities... and you then say that what he says supports your idea that they have "nothing" in common.

rickyT...thanks for the initial question and please except my apologies that this nonsense is getting mixed in to your thread. I hope my initial comment proved helpful and please feel free to PM me if I can ever be of assistance in any manner. —Jonathan

[borikensalsero]

Borkin,
Your commentary only agrees with what I said about Mambo and Salsa. But I did not Say Salsa has or doesn't have ANYTHING in common with Rumba, and I made NO reference to where and how the Cuban influence got into Mambo MUSIC.
My Theme was, 'Mambo has NOTHING in Common With Rumba'. And I hope you will give me the privilege of my having referred to the DANCE and NOT to Evolution of the MUSIC.
As for the Cubans, they have always turned out the best Afro Latin dancers and music.
The first dance I learned was the Mambo from Anita Arkin fresh out of New York in 1949. And the first Dance lesson I ever gave was teaching the Rumba figure 8 Cuban Motion to Barbara Snodgrass in the summer of 1949, and who incidentally married R.F. Cage both who live in South Boston, Va..
I know dances evolve, but I can only verify what the pristine Mambo was like when it was introduced in the late 1940's into New York by the mass emigration of Puerto Ricans. And how I danced it throughout the 1950's.
Black Sheep 'It's a fool or a con man who makes statements he can't corroborate'. Joe Lanza 2003 a.d.

Your are welcome SD.

Hmmmm...
It is rather intriguing that you state that ricans introduced mambo to PR in the 40s when their mass influx to this country was in the 20s and 30s. Wouldn't you think the dance would have some how been introduced then along its music? But they weren't! They weren't introduced to the US market until the 40s when a Cuban, Perez Prado, after a stay in mexico decided to venture with his music into the US market.

There was no mambo dancing nor music not even during the 50s when Cortijos band finally made their first bomba album in 1951 in Puerto Rico. It is a historical fact, not my made up 'truth'. Even bomba's style of afro influence didn't have the mambo like style, nor its dance. The only afro-rican music genre in PR during the 40s was Bomba and it was regarded as the "lower music played by slaves", hence not welcomed by the Anglo controlled economic market in PR.

A film strip from dancers at the palladium and a film from Afro-Cuban dancers dancing Rumba, will show how true 'NOTHING in Common With Rumba' mambo dancing is.

He who chooses not to see historical events can not be convienced by fact.

Me being puerto rican and loving salsa, there is nothing more that my EGO would want but to locate the origins of mambo dancing in Puerto Rico but I can't. There is just too much cuban, domincan, american, etc influence on the American Mambo dancing Style to say that ricans created it. Above all there is just too a great amount of Cuba origin motion in the dance. If el Gran Combo didn't start playing salsa until the early 1970s, how in the world can we even begin to try to take credit for the american version Mambo dancing? Yes, we ricans helped shape it, along with blacks, dominicans, italians, jews, but the dance by no means is of rican origins.

[Black Sheep]

Borkin Wrote,

"Hmmmm...
It is rather intriguing that you (Joe Lanza) state that ricans introduced mambo to PR in the 40s when their mass influx to this country was in the 20s and 30s. Wouldn't you think the dance would have some how been introduced then along its music? But they weren't! They weren't introduced to the US market until the 40s when a Cuban, Perez Prado, after a stay in Mexico decided to venture with his music into the US market. "

Borkin, this whole statement of yours is a complete distortion of what I IN FACT DID SAY! Please reread my post?
1) "you (Joe) state that ricans introduced mambo to PR in the 40s when their mass influx to this country was in the 20' and 30's."
Borkin, I Never made that statement! Look at my post! [Personal attack has been edited as per Dance Forums guideline #4] My friend, First of all you may be a PR, but you do not know your PR history! It was after WW II that the mass immigration (not influx) to New York took place by the PR's. How do I know this? I was a student at the University of Miami in 1946 living in make shift dormitories, Army Air Force barracks on a former AAF Airport. In the evenings, we G.I. students spent our allowance drinking beer at the Airport Terminal Building. For one whole semester I personally witnessed the large overcrowded waiting room full of your ancestors some who might have been your relatives waiting for the connecting flight to NYC. Every night for months this situation took place with masses of PRs fleeing to NYC.
As for New York PR's, I went to the Stinson Aviation Academy before the war. My closest friend was Alex Diaz, an Officer in the Cuban Navy. I learned a lot about Cuba, but I never even knew there was an Island called PR because there was a dearth of PR's in NYC up until WW II.
2) I stated that I learned the PR Mambo in the summer of 1949 from Anita Arkin. Why is this inconsistent with your statement
that, "They weren't (Dance and Mambo music) introduced to the US market until the 40s when a Cuban, Perez Prado, after a stay in Mexico decided to venture with his music into the US market."
Borkin, I appreciate your dialogue, but how about Quoting me accurately, and if you agree that Perez Prado introduced the Music in the 1940; Please tell me "is the year 1949 (Arkin) fit into your parameter of "40's" ?
Black Sheep 'History can distort many facts, but 'Dates' per se are almost always uncontestable Joe Lanza 1946, AAF MB.

[borikensalsero]

Borkin Wrote,

"Hmmmm...
It is rather intriguing that you (Joe Lanza) state that ricans introduced mambo to PR in the 40s when their mass influx to this country was in the 20s and 30s. Wouldn't you think the dance would have some how been introduced then along its music? But they weren't! They weren't introduced to the US market until the 40s when a Cuban, Perez Prado, after a stay in Mexico decided to venture with his music into the US market. "

Borkin, this whole statement of yours is a complete distortion of what I IN FACT DID SAY! Please reread my post?
1) "you (Joe) state that ricans introduced mambo to PR in the 40s when their mass influx to this country was in the 20' and 30's."
Borkin, I Never made that statement! Look at my post! [Personal attack has been edited as per Dance Forums guideline #4] My friend, First of all you may be a PR, but you do not know your PR history! It was after WW II that the mass immigration (not influx) to New York took place by the PR's. How do I know this? I was a student at the University of Miami in 1946 living in make shift dormitories, Army Air Force barracks on a former AAF Airport. In the evenings, we G.I. students spent our allowance drinking beer at the Airport Terminal Building. For one whole semester I personally witnessed the large overcrowded waiting room full of your ancestors some who might have been your relatives waiting for the connecting flight to NYC. Every night for months this situation took place with masses of PRs fleeing to NYC.
As for New York PR's, I went to the Stinson Aviation Academy before the war. My closest friend was Alex Diaz, an Officer in the Cuban Navy. I learned a lot about Cuba, but I never even knew there was an Island called PR because there was a dearth of PR's in NYC up until WW II.
2) I stated that I learned the PR Mambo in the summer of 1949 from Anita Arkin. Why is this inconsistent with your statement
that, "They weren't (Dance and Mambo music) introduced to the US market until the 40s when a Cuban, Perez Prado, after a stay in Mexico decided to venture with his music into the US market."
Borkin, I appreciate your dialogue, but how about Quoting me accurately, and if you agree that Perez Prado introduced the Music in the 1940; Please tell me "is the year 1949 (Arkin) fit into your parameter of "40's" ?
Black Sheep 'History can distort many facts, but 'Dates' per se are almost always uncontestable Joe Lanza 1946, AAF MB.

Joe, again, if I don't know my rican history then explain to me why there is load of jibaro songs from the early 20s speaking ot migration to the united states by the ricans? Also explain to me why songs from the mid 30s express how good it was to see so many rican communities in NY City all living out of the "Home Relief" and not needing to speak 'Ingli' (English)? While after the WWII there was a great amount of ricans migrating to the US, your statement is lacks to present that Ricans were already in NY City. If you didn't even know of the island of PR then, Do you think that you would have known they were already in NY City? Why do you think they wanted to go to NY City in the 40s? The 20s and 30s brought ricans little by little to NY City which amounted for a great deal of them here. The difference is the second wave came in the 40s, in shorter period hence, seemingly in bulk, never-the-less it doesn't take away the fact that NY City was already packed with ricans by then.

Joe, you, indeed mentioned that Mambo was introduced by the mass rican emigration in the 40s... My statement on the 20's and 30's was to show that they would have brought the dance then had they been dancing it.

While US public school's history books willingly skip over rican emigration prior to the 40s, the recorded histroy via jibaro songs from the 20s and the 30s account for such fact, plus a more complete book on american/rican history will yield a period known as Pioneer Migration of Ricans to the United States. Do I need Rican history, Yes, I do. By no means I know all of it. But it seems to me that I happen to be a little more informed than others. Joe, because you don't know of something it doesn't mean that it never happend.

On to your second statement...
What rican Mambo? There wasn't a rican Mambo! How is Anita going to learn a rican mambo when ricans themselves danced cuban mambo! The mambo that ricans knew and danced was CUBAN. Just because a person learns to dance from a rican it doesn't mean that the dance is rican. At the same time ricans came to this country, cubans came with them as well. You might have been told that it was rican mambo created by ricans, the statement being true is another token. Joe, the fruits of my research of Mambo dancing as well as its music have yielded me with results which all contradict your current knowledge of Mambo, do you think that it would be wise to deny what page after page, book after book of Mambo history says because Anita never asked herself where the ricans that taught her mambo got it from, passing on an uncomfired version of a mambo dancing that was never rican?

The first US tour of Perez Prado was in '49 in NY city. mambo came to existance in '38 in Cuba, so did the dance as per how Cubans dance it. He recorded a great number of mambo songs from 41 to 47 in Mexico City. Joe, there was no Mambo created in PR, there was no mambo dance created in PR. However, the cuban/rican relations were very good at the time, they interchanged musicians, music styles, even the national Flag. But the rican mambo you speak of is true Cuban Mambo, not rican mambo.

If Anita was taught by ricans then she would have taught you true mambo as per cubans dance with the little hop like action when feet come together, you'd be doing minimal combinations and would do dancing a lot more rumba movements. That is the mambo ricans danced in NY City as taught to them by Cubans during the 40s. Joe, this topic goes beyond your current knowledge. A history lesson by me isn't needed, for 1- you think I'm wrong anyways. 2- It is too detailed to explain in 300 page mambo histroy book, even more so here. I don't mean it as an attack to your knowledge, no one knows everything, or the full story. But your safest approach is to buy a Puerto Rican Music book and check to see if Mambo is even mentioned as being in the Puerto Rico in the 40s. If you find that it is, it will tell you exactly what I have told you, plus a lot more details that can clarify why Anita told you that it was a Puerto Rican dance.

Remember the US version isn't true mambo, it is a mixture of all dance types with a back and forth motion created in the US, and that includes original movments from rumba.

BTW.. Influx also means Arrival.

[Black Sheep]

Borkin,
It is a simple matter to learn when the mass PR immigrations to NYC took place. The immigration department has this information, and if that's too much trouble ask some senior citizen from PR.
And I was an EYE Witness to this Mass Immigration. If you don't believe Me, check it out with the Immighrastion Office Washington D.C. A post card will do. They even take phone calls.
Instead displaying all your knowledge about Perez Prado, who happened to be the best known and played the (too) fastrest Mambo music in the 1950's.
Black Sheep.

[borikensalsero]

Borkin,
It is a simple matter to learn when the mass PR immigrations to NYC took place. The immigration department has this information, and if that's too much trouble ask some senior citizen from PR.
And I was an EYE Witness to this Mass Immigration. If you don't believe Me, check it out with the Immighrastion Office Washington D.C. A post card will do. They even take phone calls.
Instead displaying all your knowledge about Perez Prado, who happened to be the best known and played the (too) fastrest Mambo music in the 1950's.
Black Sheep.

There is no need to ask, my father was one of them in the 40s who came to live with his uncle that had already been here since the early 30s. If by mass you mean lots in 5 years. Agreed, more ricans came to US during that time than any other. However, lots in 20 years is also a mass, and indicative of the first wave of ricans in the US, and more than enough to bring what you have mentioned as Rican Mambo, but ricna mambo was absent... I will agree that out of masses the shortest and fastest was the 40s, hence largest mass. However, also look up the immigration department on how many ricans were here before the 40s in what is known as Pioneer Mirgration, the first wave of mass mirgartion of ricans in to the US. You'll be surprise that half knowledge doesn't tell a full story.

Lets concentrate on the history of mambo and why it couldn't have been the ricans that created it the dance, hence the rumba influence mambo dancing contains because of its Cuban origin, rather than mass migration of the ricans to the US.

[Black Sheep]

Borkin,
Sicilians came to California in the Mid 1800's, but the mass immigrations took place ion the early 1900's.
It is always that way. A few pioneers lead the way and then when the time is ripe the mass immigrations task place.
Are you conceeding my Eye witness report that the mass PR immigrations took place AFTER WWII, and NOT n the 1920's?
Black Sheep "Never make a factual statement you can't corroborate' Joe Lanza 2003 a.d.

[salsarhythms]

Ok, who cares?!?

This entire thread is about hip motion difference between
salsa and rumba...

Now we're getting into migration issues of the 20's, 30's,
and 40's?

You know BlackSheep, I've seen what you have done in the
other forums with your arguments and your unwillingness to
back down from any point of view that differs from yours.

I'm not saying that you should stay quiet, but Borinken is
making some points and clarifying his statements...but no...

That's not enough for you, now is it?

Personally, I don't care what you do outside of the Salsa Forum
but I will be extremely honest with you:

I don't care what anyone else says to me, as long as I am the
Mod for the Salsa forum, I will NOT tolerate you degrading every
single thread into an argument.

I don't care if I have all of the site mod's down my throat in
your defense, I simply will not have it.

I'm making this stance public so that if and when you continue
with this behavior, everyone will know why every single one
of your posts will be automatically deleted from the Salsa forum
regardless of its relevancy.

Is that drastic?

Am I taking away your free speech?

That's up to you and the faithful readers of these posts to decide.

Believe me, the last thing that I would want is to alienate anyone
with this, but you are taking things way out of hand.

You've done it in the Swing forums, Ballroom, and god knows
where else...but you won't do it here.

Borinken made his points, just drop it, no need to continue pushing
the issue just so that you can somehow, someway glorify yourself.

Take this post in whatever way you want, but I can tell you right now
your argumentative style, personal attacks, disrespect, complete
disregard for the term "COMMUNITY" will not be tolerated here in
the Salsa Forum any more!

I have said what I needed to say, the ball's in your court, you
decide what you want to do. But make no mistake, you will not
take the Salsa Forum and make it a place where someone is
afraid of making a comment just because it does not fit in your
pretty little box.

For everyone else, please don't take this as a way of censoring
anyone's posts...I don't even care about the arguing part, but
when someone is clarifying what they have said, and you continue
to push the issue, the there's something wrong with that.

I haven't posted in a very long time, but I do check out every single
post that goes on and at no time has anyone ever seen me
take such a drastic stance...however, in this case, I have to.

I would like to apologize to all those that have taken offense
to what I have said.

If you'd like, you can PM me, or

you can email me at my personal email
address:

fernando@salsa-rhythms.com

[SDsalsaguy]

For the record: Salsarythms has my full backing. Period.

[will35]

It is very, very easy for a forum such as this to degenerate into petty arguments. I can't really give my backing when I don't dance salsa, anyway, but I have enjoyed reading this category from time to time. I'd hate to see it turn ugly. I guess that is for the record, too. Let's not be too sensitive. What I see in some of the more argumentative posts is a lot of the pot calling the kettle black. Let's be friendly.

[pygmalion]

Yes, will, you can go on the record whether you're a salsa dancer or not. And for the record, the argumentative posts turn me off. Completely. Right or wrong ceases to matter as soon as name-calling, back-biting, and other ugliness starts. That's when I stop wanting to be involved.

[SDsalsaguy]

Sorry, I guess I should have been clearer. I was stating my support for the moderator of this forum not as a salsero but as the Site Moderator.

My deepest apologies to everyone who views this argumentativeness... please know: this is not the norm for the forums and will never be accepted as such.

—Jonathan

[pygmalion]

Maybe I should have been clearer too. I also support salsarhythms' decision not to tolerate negativity in his forum. Negativity turns me off.

[SDsalsaguy]

rickyT, did the first several posts in this thread sufficiently address your concern?

[pygmalion]

Hi Pymalion,

This is in reply to your query on the excercise to do to acquire the Cuban Hip Motion.

Basically, I just stand on the spot, in front of the mirror, feet slightly apart and use the waist to trace the outline of a horizontal figure of 8. In the initial period (read 'many, many months'), I looked pretty awful because I was using my butt instead of my waist to move! In the beginning just ignore the timing but later you should be able to move in time with the Rhumba timing of 2,3,4,1.

You will know you've acquired IT, when you can trace the figure of 8 with your waist, sitting down on a chair.

rgds,
rickyT

Hey! You're an international rumba guy! 8)

Anyway, I definitely don't have it yet, because my standing figure 8's aren't bad, but my seated ones, well. Let's just say I'll pull the curtain of charity over them for the time being. :lol: Sad.

Thanks for the reply. :D


Jenn

[rickyT]

Hi SDsalsaguy and Pymalion,

Despite the many fireworks and hot air generated, I believe I managed to separate the wheat from the chaff and got the answer to to my query.

Basically, I agree with Pymalion, and will use the same hip motion as Rhumba, but with less articulation. If I can figure out the hip motion of my Salsa instructor, I might post it for discussion.

I wish to thank all members who have posted replies to my query, distractions notwithstanding. If nothing else, it made for interesting late night reading.

rgds,
rickyT

[pygmalion]

I'm really sorry about all the back and forth. :oops: :(

I'm glad you got your answer, though. Please hang in there with us.


Jenn

[borikensalsero]

Guys, I would like to take a second to appologize if I turned you off from the thread. I'm sorry if my actions led into pettiness of topics outside the world of dance. I'm glad though, that it made for intersting late night reading and that you got an answer.

[Black Sheep]

Borkin,
I posted a short story for you, 'RED BAILEY & THE PUERTO RICAN', look under the thread 'Short Stores'. This is a true story that took place in Miami Beach Airport in 1946. Your dad might be familiar with this incident and appreciate reading about it.
Black Sheep 'The best stories are often in history books'.

[SwingBean]

Okay, so back to hip motion: I think (and jump in here please 'cause this is really a question) that club dancers move their hips differently than "classically" trained dancers. It seems to me that club dancers are less formal or strict about the motion and there are as many styles as there are dancers.

My instructor has broken Latin hip motion (starts with the feet and knees) into 3 parts (this is lower body only--we haven't gotten to the ribs, etc yet :) ) and I'll post this if I can figure out how to write it succinctly.

And, if I understood him correctly, you practice the same motion for rumba, salsa, cha-cha, etc., but it looks different in the different dances because at faster tempos you can't do all the parts of the motion while at slow tempos it can be very exaggerated. You can also vary the look by making parts of the motion staccato. What an interesting technique to work on!

[tj]

Okay, so back to hip motion: I think (and jump in here please 'cause this is really a question) that club dancers move their hips differently than "classically" trained dancers. It seems to me that club dancers are less formal or strict about the motion and there are as many styles as there are dancers.


Hey, wow. Thanks for bringing this topic back up. This whole thread was "before-my-time" so to speak... but regarding the hip motion thing, perhaps, between all of us we can come up with particulars regarding this?

Personally, I don't pay much attention to details like this. I've taken classes where they break down salsa hip action in fine detail, but I have found that it's not for me as I'm more into the social aspects than what my hip action looks like.

Anyone else have some points about the differences?

[squirrel]

My hips move naturally while I step... I do not force the in any way! :)

But the question was very good!

:)

[SwingBean]

My hips move naturally while I step... I do not force the in any way! :)


Hi Squirrel --thanks for your reply.

So I assume you are a club dancer--not professionally trained? I've seen many excellent club dancers but none that have that sharp rotation of hip and knee that the pros work so hard to get. I'm wondering if the difference is intentional?

[dTas]

wow! how is it that i totally missed this thread! now that i'm all caught up... it was an exciting 3 pages... i'd like to add to the hip motion deal. :D

i use the same "trained" hip motion in all my dances that require "cuban" motion. it took me a long time to learn this but now that i've learned it-it seems the most "natural" way to get things done.

not too long ago i obtained a "salsa action" DVD that taught the hip action as a totally different motion that what i was trained to do. in a nutshell -

instead of using the hips to help you move into your next step it used the hips as a "display". not aiding the body to move at all but forcing the body out away from "the center" to create a "look".

when the instructor did it, it looked nice, but totally out of control. but then i had to realize that Salsa is a "social" dance. the use of "frame" is less than in formal ballroom. the leads are more subtle and can be left open to individual interpretation and style.

when i move my hip its to help me lead. but that is not neccessarily needed for Salsa. the form is so free that the strict "ballroom" way of leading and following do not always apply.

that doesn't mean i throw my style of cuban motion out the window when i dance salsa... i just appreciate that there are other styles out there and understand why they exist.

[SwingBean]

wow! how is it that i totally missed this thread! now that i'm all caught up... it was an exciting 3 pages... i'd like to add to the hip motion deal. :D


Haha--yes, it has been exciting!

Thanks for your post. I'm curious about this issue because I observe so many different styles and because my social dance teacher says I'm doing the motion "wrong" when I use my ballroom training and vice versa! Your comments on using the motion to lead are intriguing. Could you elaborate on this?

[dTas]

wow! how is it that i totally missed this thread! now that i'm all caught up... it was an exciting 3 pages... i'd like to add to the hip motion deal. :D


Haha--yes, it has been exciting!

Thanks for your post. I'm curious about this issue because I observe so many different styles and because my social dance teacher says I'm doing the motion "wrong" when I use my ballroom training and vice versa! Your comments on using the motion to lead are intriguing. Could you elaborate on this?

its all connected... my cuban motion helps me move before i begin a motino my hip begins the movement, my shoulder reacts, my torsoe reacts thus my whole body indicates the direction of my motion before i actually go there.

all of this indicates to the follow which way the action is going to go before the transfer of weight happens. makes it much easier to follow.

my partner and i do an exercise every now and then to help each other read cuban motion...

1) stand in closed position, feel shoulder width apart, follow closes eyes
2) leader slowly moves using cuban motion, shifting weight
3) follow should feel each hip motion and be able to react accordingly.
4) the leader varies the speed and the follow should feel it.

the leader can also disconnect by letting go of the follow and the follow puts hands on the leaders shoulders. the follow should feel when the leader is moving the hips and move the following hips accordingly.

[Pebbles]

A couple of things: the ballroom hip motion is tied to the weight shift, and the motion often has a twisting movement. There are probably other differences but those two seemed more apparent. Then again, there are quite a few different salsa styles, and some dancers use ballroom techniques. If you look at them, the two hip motions are the same. I think the question isn’t so much if there is a right or wrong way to move the hips in salsa. It’s fine as long as it looks and feels natural.

[squirrel]

Indeed I am a club dancer and instructor, and since I do not do ballroom I do not see the reason why I should force myself to attain such a hip movement.

Besides, I've never seen a Cuban or Puerto Rican (club dancer) do it... :)

I need to work on my spins though... :(

[alvaro]

hi!, interesting thread.

I know nothing about ballroom, so i cannot compare its hip motion with anything else .... but my two cents:

i dont think there exists something called 'salsa hip motion' (nor 'cuban hip motion', for that matter).

If it feels good and looks good then it's ok for salsa. If i look at the cuban girls dancing some of them move the hips the same way ... but not all of them, and they don't do it the same way all the time.

I'm sorry if i can't really explain what i'm thinking. Maybe that even if you can break down the moves of some dancers (and of course it will be great if you learn them), trying to learn the hip movement for salsa is a bad mindframe.

---
P.D. I've only danced with one girl with a ballroom background (that i know of - she teaches ballroom), her basic step and hip movement was elegant and beautiful .. but i dont know if it was borrowed from ballroom or just influenced by it. Besides, it looked absolutely great for mambo but wouldn't have looked so good for casino.

[jhb]

Wow, what a thread!

One thing that I think has not always been made clear, here and elsewhere, is the distinction between ballroom rumba and real rumba (ie, guaguancó, etc...).

Mambo the dance did evolve from (or at least, owes a lot to) the various forms of rumba that preceded it. I don't think there can be any doubt whatsoever in that.

The ballroom dance they call "rumba", however, is another story entirely. It's really a misnomer for one. Some say it is derived from the son. It shares very similar timing with the Mambo (the old Cuban mambo), but past that, I would not even consider them at all the same dance. Either way, ballroom rumba has little to do with either the spirit or the feel of real rumba, or of son and mambo for that matter. So when somebody says "since salsa evolved from mambo, and mambo from rumba, learning ballroom rumba might help your salsa motion" I can see why people might take issue with that!

I think that's where a lot of the arguments and confusion in this threads originally stem from. One person talking about ballroom rumba and it is not the parent of mambo, the other talking about cuban Rumba and saying it is the parent of mambo. In essence, they are both right!

Anyway, I really would never suggest anybody look at ballroom dancing for much insight into the movements behind afro-cuban derived dances. By ballroom's very nature, it takes another dance and "molds" it into that stiff ballroom style. Why not find some videos of real rumba, old or new! Or of contemporary cuban dance!

[dTas]

i think of it this way...

imagine walking up a hill slowly, or go and walk up a hill, either forwards or backwards... what do your hips do?

be sure to go slowly so that you can feel the movement of your hips and the transfer of weight. one step at a time.

that to me is a natural hip action and i feel best ballroom cuban motion best resembles this style.

[jhb]

that to me is a natural hip action and i feel best ballroom cuban motion best resembles this style.

Fair enough. I suppose in the end in comes down to personal style and preference!

I suppose it depends on what you are going for in your dancing. If you come from the ballroom school, you'll have a different feel for the dance, and a different style than if you come from the cuban school (ie, the 'street' dances, mambo and rumba styling).

[delamusica]

By ballroom's very nature, it takes another dance and "molds" it into that stiff ballroom style. Why not find some videos of real rumba, old or new! Or of contemporary cuban dance!

Ok, anyone who thinks that ballroom rumba is stiff obviously hasn't seen anyone good do it . . .

I use almost the exact same motion for int'l style ballroom rumba as I do in the salsa clubs, and many a salsero has complimented my hip motion. The posture for the two dances is slightly different and that does have a small effect on the way the hips move, and salsa obviously requires faster execution of the movements, but the motion is achieved through weight changes no matter which style you're dancing - the hip motion for both is fundamentally the same.

[Pebbles]

... but the motion is achieved through weight changes no matter which style you're dancing - the hip motion for both is fundamentally the same.

I actually think that is THE difference. If your hip motion is achieved through the weight change, then you are probably doing it the ballroom style. It can look quite nice and there's nothing wrong with it, but I don't think it is the same as hip motions in real latin dances (i.e. not ballroom converted)

[dTas]

one thing i like about ballroom hip action is if you take a picture of it at any time the body looks balanced and well positioned.

i'm not saying this because i like having my picture taken... it just indicates to me that at all times the body is in balance. not only when a pose of some sort is made.

i've seen photos of dancers where they're hips are WAY OUT away from their body and they look "odd" or just plain BAD. that tells me that something went wrong in their technique and they're out of position or off balance (their center isn't where it should be).

[Kindra]

one thing i like about ballroom hip action is if you take a picture of it at any time the body looks balanced and well positioned.

I agree with this sentiment ENTIRELY.

I would like to add that in conjunction with looking well balanced and positioned...hip action must also look relaxed, natural and easy....which is not an easy combination to master.

[vey]

One thing that I think has not always been made clear, here and elsewhere, is the distinction between ballroom rumba and real rumba (ie, guaguancó, etc...).
I think that's where a lot of the arguments and confusion in this threads originally stem from.

Thank you jhb for mentioning it I fully agree with you:!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!:

And while majority of people have an idea of what ballroom rumba looks like, very few (in my experience) know about cuban rumba.
The only video I found is here:
http://www.boogalu.com/movies/rumbon.tropical.mov

[jhb]

i've seen photos of dancers where they're hips are WAY OUT away from their body and they look "odd" or just plain BAD. that tells me that something went wrong in their technique and they're out of position or off balance (their center isn't where it should be).

That's very true. I think that's because they are "trying too hard" to put the hip movement into salsa. Really, it's the same hip movement as you make (especially women) when you walk. There is no need to overdo it. People really overblow it with this idea of "Cuban motion".

The basic hip movement is obviously very similar between ballroom rumba and salsa. Where I find fault with the application ballroom rumba to salsa is the "baggage" that comes along with the ballroom rumba style. To me, it really does not fit with salsa. If you want to learn the technique as it applies to salsa, I would again still say, learn it from the best. Watch good salsa dancers, mambo dancers, or watch people dance real rumba.

[delamusica]

... but the motion is achieved through weight changes no matter which style you're dancing - the hip motion for both is fundamentally the same.

I actually think that is THE difference. If your hip motion is achieved through the weight change, then you are probably doing it the ballroom style. It can look quite nice and there's nothing wrong with it, but I don't think it is the same as hip motions in real latin dances (i.e. not ballroom converted)

How is it possible to move your hips without shifting your weight? Even if it's just shifting your weight to a different part of the foot instead of from one foot to the other, you can't move your hips around without changing your weight placement. It's just not physically possible.

[Pebbles]

How is it possible to move your hips without shifting your weight? Even if it's just shifting your weight to a different part of the foot instead of from one foot to the other, you can't move your hips around without changing your weight placement. It's just not physically possible.

I've seen it done all the time, it is quite relaxed and natural. Have you watched latin dancers in latino clubs? Put someone doing ballroom hip motions in the crowd and you can pick it out in a heart beat.

[delamusica]

How is it possible to move your hips without shifting your weight? Even if it's just shifting your weight to a different part of the foot instead of from one foot to the other, you can't move your hips around without changing your weight placement. It's just not physically possible.

I've seen it done all the time, it is quite relaxed and natural. Have you watched latin dancers in latino clubs? Put someone doing ballroom hip motions in the crowd and you can pick it out in a heart beat.

I do go and dance in latino clubs - and not one person has ever guessed that I do ballroom. I'm not going to argue it any more, but stand in front of a mirror and try to move your hips while keeping your weight in one place - see how it looks. It's sure as heck NOT what the dancers in the clubs are doing.

This really is going nowhere . . .

[tacad]

... but the motion is achieved through weight changes no matter which style you're dancing - the hip motion for both is fundamentally the same.

I actually think that is THE difference. If your hip motion is achieved through the weight change, then you are probably doing it the ballroom style. It can look quite nice and there's nothing wrong with it, but I don't think it is the same as hip motions in real latin dances (i.e. not ballroom converted)

How is it possible to move your hips without shifting your weight? Even if it's just shifting your weight to a different part of the foot instead of from one foot to the other, you can't move your hips around without changing your weight placement. It's just not physically possible.
And jumping into the fray :wink: , in ballroom the hip moves and weight changes are one after the other. Your left hip rotates forward before your left foot lands, at which point you change your weight to the left foot. Then the right hip rotates forward, then the right foot lands, then weight changes onto right foot.

This is what happens just walking down the street.

This is not a comment about salsa. I know relatively little about salsa.

[delamusica]

Right . . . dancing latin, dancing salsa, walking - the mechanism for movement is all the same - the only difference is style. Different styling does not mean different physiology.

Ok, I really am trying to be done with this now . . .

[Pebbles]

...
This really is going nowhere . . .

It's funny you put it that way, since the latin hip motions are created without having to take a step and going anywhere. Here's a simple example: balance a pencil between two finger, then move the fingers up and down. The pencil moves, and the support by each finger stays the same, i.e. no weight shift. If you want to see the physics behind it, any basic physics textbook should cover it.

Here's another test: can you dance a bachata without taking any steps? The essense of bachata is the hip motion, and it can be danced without steps or weight shifts. If you can't, then you are limited by the ballroom frame of mind. I'm not saying the ballroom hip motion is wrong, I'm saying it is different. And I don't see why you can insist it is physically impossible.

[delamusica]

...
This really is going nowhere . . .

The pencil moves, and the support by each finger stays the same, i.e. no weight shift. If you want to see the physics behind it, any basic physics textbook should cover it.

I was talking about having all of your weight on one foot - when are you ever standing with your weight split between both of your feet in latin dancing? I assume that "support by each finger stays the same" is the equivalent of standing split weight?

[delamusica]

And I don't see why you can insist it is physically impossible.

Because your hips are attatched to both your legs and your spine, that's how. You can't move the middle part without adjusting either what's above it or below it.

[Pebbles]

Yes I think it is the equivalent of a split weight, though i suppose you can dance the latin hip motion with most of the weight on one foot, without transfering it as well.

[delamusica]

Ok - but in dancing aren't you always on one foot or the other? (except the brief transition in between, of course - there's no standing around split-weight not moving is the point)

[Pebbles]

Ok - but in dancing aren't you always on one foot or the other? (except the brief transition in between, of course - there's no standing around split-weight not moving is the point)

I'm not sure about ballroom, but I think in latin dances, the split weight stance is common. It may be more so in merengue and bachata than salsa, since salsa is often taught as "take a step and do this". But then if you see Al (Mr. Liquidsilver) teaching, he would like change all that.

[delamusica]

Split weight is common in ballroom in standard dances like waltz and foxtrot, but very rarely in latin and I've never seen anybody do them in salsa - I don't.

[squirrel]

I think the weight center is important here. If it is always somewhere "in between" the legs and not entirely switched on one leg, then you have the smooth looking Salsa steps (notice: I am not talking about spins, as these require a different technique)...

A shifting of weight is normal, but not too exaggerrated... as I usually see in ballroom dancers with low skill level who try to do Salsa... I saw it last night... Gosh it was an awful sight!

Of course, good or well trained ballroom dancers are an entirely different matter... they usually know how to use the techniques :)

Now then, what is this talk about? Hip motion, right? IMO, there is an obvious difference in the way a ballroom trained dancer and a Puerto Rican/Cuban with "street experience" move their hips... just look at them!

It is usually fairly easy to spot ballroom - trained people... not that they are doing anything wrong, but their hip motion is quite different... not to mention the way they step, the posture etc...

The way I step moves my hips, as I see it... :) Use the "correct" steps and you don't need to worry about hips, they just follow :)

And another thing: I can dance cha cha (street version) and I have never felt the urge or need to learn the particular hip motion that I saw in ballroom (and I had cha cha training with a ballroom champion from my country - I quit after 4 lessons... too formal for me, compared to Salsa... and I hated the music used as well...). I have danced with ballroom dancers on cha cha and followed quite ok... I can even do some (easy) shines... :) Why force my hips?

PS: I am not trying to offend ballroom dancers, I very mcuh admire their style and hard work behind! And I wish I could wave my arms around as they do! :D

[jhb]

Ok, I really am trying to be done with this now . . .

You know you cannot escape!! :D

I do agree that in Salsa, ballroom rumba and walking normally, the mechanism behind the weight change is fundamentally the same -- that there has to be some weight change in order for the hips to move in that natural way.

But then, somebody walking looks very different from from somebody salsaing (even at the same speed). There is so much more to the hip motion than the simple physiology that all three (salsa, walking and ballroom rumba) share. The way you shift weight, the way you step, as well as the styling you put into it all profoundly change the nature of the final hip movement. There are differences in when you shift weight, when you start to straighten the leg, the posture and stance -- all these make a difference.

As somebody above said, you look at the way a Cuban dances the rumba, or salsa, or mambo, and then you look at a ballroom dancer doing "Cuban motion", they are distinct, and you can usually identify very easily the ballroom dancers in a room full of salsa dancers. Unless they happen to take very well to the movements of Salsa, they stick out )and I have seen good ballroom rumba dancers dance salsa).

[delamusica]

Now then, what is this talk about? Hip motion, right? IMO, there is an obvious difference in the way a ballroom trained dancer and a Puerto Rican/Cuban with "street experience" move their hips... just look at them!



Right, of course they look different. But what I've been saying is that the difference in the look really just comes down to style of motion, while the mechanism for that motion is the same.

[squirrel]

Probably ... As I have not much experience in ballroom I prefer to abstain from "passing laws" about its techniques... but I am sure the same sort of underlying technique is applied... in the end, how many ways are there to break an egg?

[dTas]

we're starting to get into the relm of "social" dancing vs "competition" dancing. more split weight vs weight on each foot individually.

in order to make better "presentation" in competition a complete weight transfer is much more obvious (for the judges and for people watching) than having your weight split.

in Salsa that technique goes the other way in allowing more split-weighted ness it smoothes out the action thus making it "less obvious" and more of an amalgum (sp).

thus you have ballroom vs salsa (in one respect) neither is correct. a salsa dancer in a ballroom competition would look just as out of place as a ballroom dancer in a salsa arena.

now here's an interesting thought... what if you were to have a "formal" salsa competition. not a comp in a "bar" but one where you reserve a venue specifically for the comp (like in ballroom). i predict that over time the style of salsa would morph to look more like ballrom in order to show clear weight transfer and position. someone will start doing it and find out that it "shows" much more to all the judges and to the person sitting in the back of the audience and then more and more people will do it to get better scores. its just the nature of the environment.

when you're put under such scrutinization you need to be clear as to what you are doing.

but then we would loose the essance of salsa, which would be a sad story.

[Pebbles]

Now then, what is this talk about? Hip motion, right? IMO, there is an obvious difference in the way a ballroom trained dancer and a Puerto Rican/Cuban with "street experience" move their hips... just look at them!



Right, of course they look different. But what I've been saying is that the difference in the look really just comes down to style of motion, while the mechanism for that motion is the same.


I think this is where our opinions differ. To me the ballroom hip motion is fundamentally different than the latin hip motions. I don’t really see the logic behind the belief that hip motion and weight shift have to go together. It may be how it is taught in ballroom, but then ballroom only offers a restricted and narrow view point on latin dancing.

You may need to actually see how it’s done. Rather than just repeating the ballroom mantra of weight change leads to hip motion, I would suggest taking a lesson in basic body motions with a non-ballroom dance teacher, be it jazz, hip hop, African, Brazilian samba, or any other latin dance. Show the teacher how you do the ballroom hip motions, and ask them if it is the same. The answer may be surprising.

Hip motions and weight shifts are separate body expressions. You would have much more expressive freedom to move with the music if you don’t have to do them together. It also produces a motion that is more in harmony with the latin music than the ballroom version, but that is more of a matter of personal taste.

[delamusica]

Ok, I'm getting tired of trying to convince people who only do salsa that the image of stiff, stilted, unmusical, unemotional, restrictive ballroom latin is just a bad stereotype . . . that's how it looks watching people who aren't very good at it. I do ballroom latin very well, and I do club salsa very well - few people can say that, and I'm telling you (the generic you, not a specific you) that they aren't nearly as different as everyone would love to make them out to be. Sure, bad salsa and bad ballroom look as different as night and day - but someone who's good at one will find it easy to get good at the other by changing a few stylistic things.

[Kindra]

Ok, I'm getting tired of trying to convince people who only do salsa that the image of stiff, stilted, unmusical, unemotional, restrictive ballroom latin is just a bad stereotype . . . that's how it looks watching people who aren't very good at it. I do ballroom latin very well, and I do club salsa very well - few people can say that, and I'm telling you (the generic you, not a specific you) that they aren't nearly as different as everyone would love to make them out to be. Sure, bad salsa and bad ballroom look as different as night and day - but someone who's good at one will find it easy to get good at the other by changing a few stylistic things.

I agree 100% :!: :!:

[tacad]

I think this is where our opinions differ. To me the ballroom hip motion is fundamentally different than the latin hip motions. I don’t really see the logic behind the belief that hip motion and weight shift have to go together. It may be how it is taught in ballroom, but then ballroom only offers a restricted and narrow view point on latin dancing.

You may need to actually see how it’s done. Rather than just repeating the ballroom mantra of weight change leads to hip motion, I would suggest taking a lesson in basic body motions with a non-ballroom dance teacher, be it jazz, hip hop, African, Brazilian samba, or any other latin dance. Show the teacher how you do the ballroom hip motions, and ask them if it is the same. The answer may be surprising.
Seriously, I thought this was the salsa mantra from reading these forums.

Hip motions and weight shifts are separate body expressions. You would have much more expressive freedom to move with the music if you don’t have to do them together. It also produces a motion that is more in harmony with the latin music than the ballroom version, but that is more of a matter of personal taste.
Agreed.

Ok, I'm getting tired of trying to convince people who only do salsa that the image of stiff, stilted, unmusical, unemotional, restrictive ballroom latin is just a bad stereotype . . . that's how it looks watching people who aren't very good at it. I do ballroom latin very well, and I do club salsa very well - few people can say that, and I'm telling you (the generic you, not a specific you) that they aren't nearly as different as everyone would love to make them out to be. Sure, bad salsa and bad ballroom look as different as night and day - but someone who's good at one will find it easy to get good at the other by changing a few stylistic things.
Watching a good ballroom couple do salsa is pretty amazing. The whole crispness of it all. Mmmm!

[jhb]

Ok, I'm getting tired of trying to convince people who only do salsa that the image of stiff, stilted, unmusical, unemotional, restrictive ballroom latin is just a bad stereotype . . . that's how it looks watching people who aren't very good at it. I do ballroom latin very well, and I do club salsa very well - few people can say that, and I'm telling you (the generic you, not a specific you) that they aren't nearly as different as everyone would love to make them out to be. Sure, bad salsa and bad ballroom look as different as night and day - but someone who's good at one will find it easy to get good at the other by changing a few stylistic things.

Well, I've watched people who are very good at ballroom rumba dance it, and while I wouldn't want to suggest that it is unmusical, or unemotional, but it is certainly very different than its street relatives. I would even go so far as think "they got this from the son?" when I see ballroom dancers do their rumba. Again see the analogy to walking. Just because the base mechanism is the same doesn't mean they are totally similar movements. It may well be fairly easy to go from one to the other if you are good, but the differences are there, and they are obvious. All you have to do is look!

[tacad]

. in Salsa that technique goes the other way in allowing more split-weighted ness it smoothes out the action thus making it "less obvious" and more of an amalgum (sp).
Ahh. This makes sense. At least I can understand it. :wink:

[madmaximus]

I've seen a lot of discussions comparing one dance style (or form) with (or against) another. Inevitably it starts when someone will debate the the merits or demerits of the other form and vice versa. And sometimes it gets contentious, but mostly it is educational.

My experience has been that these discussions constantly miss a crucial point. CONTEXT. One has to evaluate a style based on the greater context of its purpose. Now technically speaking, IMO:

-- You don't need weight change/shift to have hip movement. Proof? Stand on one leg and raise your hip or move it forward. Hip movement is accomplished by flexing the appropriate muscles of the pelvic cavity and thighs.

--Weight change is simply shifting the support of the trunk of the body (either from from one leg to another, or from the inside edge of the foot to the outside). It is used to HELP accentuate and assist hip motion. It can also help the overall look (the context) of the style whether you are moving with a bent leg, straight leg, or split leg. It simply depends on the choices in style and movement of the dancer.

-- If you are going to compare Salsa and Rumba hip motions, you have to acknowledge the differences as much as the similarities.

A race horse, a show horse, and a farm horse will all move differently at one level and similarly in another.
A race horse moves for speed--and will have pronounced galloping skills.
A show horse moves for precision--and will have pronounced cantering skills.
And a farm horse--simply doesn't care. It will do what it needs to do to pull the hoe.
But the root of their movement will be the same--because they are all horses.
By the same token, an International Style Rumba Competitor will have moves that will be different from a Social Rumba dancer, which would be different to a street Salsero. (No aspersions on any of the styles intended).

But you know what? The muscles that will produce the movements will be the same--or at the very least very similar. It is in the context, or the purpose in which the style serves--and to that end, what decorations and other stylistic considerations (such as straight vs bent knee and split weight vs distributed) that would make the difference. The competitor moves for accuracy and performance. Thus the presentation of the movement will considerably be more stylized than a social or street dancer's.

Compare a red rose with a yellow one--and consider their differences. But in the end, don't forget to appreciate how fragrant both are.

madmaximus

[HF]

Sure, bad salsa and bad ballroom look as different as night and day - but someone who's good at one will find it easy to get good at the other by changing a few stylistic things.

... so if ballroom does not look similar to good salsa than it's bad ballroom - is it that what you are saying ...?

*Hide behind a table-leg*
sorry, was not able to resist ... :lol:

[delamusica]

A race horse, a show horse, and a farm horse will all move differently at one level and similarly in another.
A race horse moves for speed--and will have pronounced galloping skills.
A show horse moves for precision--and will have pronounced cantering skills.
And a farm horse--simply doesn't care. It will do what it needs to do to pull the hoe.
But the root of their movement will be the same--because they are all horses.

Nice analogy.

But you know what? The muscles that will produce the movements will be the same--or at the very least very similar. It is in the context, or the purpose in which the style serves--and to that end, what decorations and other stylistic considerations (such as straight vs bent knee and split weight vs distributed) that would make the difference.

Well said! Why can't I be that articulate . . . :?

Oh, and HF:
:doh:
(and also a slightly belated welcome to DF :))

[madmaximus]

Oh, and HF:
:doh:
(and also a slightly belated welcome to DF :))

Thank you delamusica :) so far, DF has been really educational for me.

madmaximus

[delamusica]

That was actually directed at HF - but same to you, since you mention it. :)

[HF]

Thank you very much, delamusica and everybody else!

[madmaximus]

That was actually directed at HF - but same to you, since you mention it. :)

:oops: :oops: :oops:

note to self. Don't post in DF when sleep-deprived. Not anymore anyway :) :) :)

Thanks dm


madmaximus

[tacad]

That was actually directed at HF - but same to you, since you mention it. :)

:oops: :oops: :oops:

note to self. Don't post in DF when sleep-deprived. Not anymore anyway :) :) :)

Thanks dm


madmaximus
I would like to take this opportunity to point out that the IRU (Insomniacs Are Us) is available for just such occasions. :D

[madmaximus]

I would like to take this opportunity to point out that the IRU (Insomniacs Are Us) is available for just such occasions. :D

:D :D :D

Thanks tacad. I always thought that *sleep* is overrated. :)

madmaximus

[dancepgh]

Hi! I'm a Latin dance instructor and a professional competitor. Where I come from....we call it Cuban Hip Motion and it is indeed the same action for Rumba, Cha Cha, Salsa and Mambo. The speed with which one dances can easily affect the look, feel and actual execution of the movement but it should be the same in an ideal situation. Do not confuse with Samba - which has a totally different hip action.

[Twilight_Elena]

Hi! I'm a Latin dance instructor and a professional competitor. Where I come from....we call it Cuban Hip Motion and it is indeed the same action for Rumba, Cha Cha, Salsa and Mambo. The speed with which one dances can easily affect the look, feel and actual execution of the movement but it should be the same in an ideal situation. Do not confuse with Samba - which has a totally different hip action.

So is the salsa hip motion based on the figure eight as well? In what way is it the same as Rumba motion?
Oh, and welcome to DF (already said that in another thread :p )

Twilight Elena

[Medira]

I'm slowly working my way through this topic, so I may come up with more questions to ask, but for now I'll start with this...

This is in reply to your query on the excercise to do to acquire the Cuban Hip Motion.

Basically, I just stand on the spot, in front of the mirror, feet slightly apart and use the waist to trace the outline of a horizontal figure of 8. In the initial period (read 'many, many months'), I looked pretty awful because I was using my butt instead of my waist to move! In the beginning just ignore the timing but later you should be able to move in time with the Rhumba timing of 2,3,4,1.

Now, I can do this. I've done it for a couple of years during training for polynesian dance. My trouble comes along when I have to try and incorporate the steps of the dance in with the hip action. It feels awkward, and I have no doubt that the awkwardness shows, especially when I'm really focusing on it.

Any suggestions for making the transition between hip action when your feet are stationary and hip action while the feet are performing the proper steps?

[Medira]

Okay, one more question....

Back in the earlier pages of the thread (page 2? 3?) there was mention of being able to successfully complete hip action while seated in a chair. Could somebody elaborate on this? Are you talking a stationary chair or a swivel chair? Is the motion coming strictly from your abs and obliques only?

*very curious*

[dTas]

this is cool... i just went back and re-read this entire thread. i totally forgot that i had written stuff in this thread already. it was like reading someone elses posts (except for the fact that i totally agreed with what i said... WHOA!)

regardless of what ever kind of motion you have in your dancing... what it really boils down to is can you dance it; and not far behind is, does it look "good".

can you dance it is a personal measure. what you're comfortable with, what you're able to learn, and what you're able to use.

does it look "good" is subjective. what might look good in one arena might look terrible in another. its all in the eye of the audience.

for me i like cuban action that rotates around the center of the body. regardless of the speed of the music i like the action to have a visible center and strength. i'm not saying that any particular genre of dance has this. i've seen social latin dancers (salsa, for lack of better description) with good hip action as well as bad... and i've also seen professional latin dancers (balloom) with good and bad hip action. but again... its in my minds eye that i've rating these people.

[dTas]

about hip action excercies...

keeping in mind my previous post. i like latin action that is central around the body so here are some exercises that i use to help promote this action.

1) "twists": stand with your heels together and toes facing out (about 90 degrees). raise your hands/elbows so they're above your waist (to engage the back muscles). now... trist your hips back and forth holding your hips in the twisted position for a second then switch to the other side. try not to bend your knees but allow them to flex if necessary.

the trick here is to rotate your hips around your spine. right hip goes forward she same amount as left hip goes back and visa versa. its very easy to "settle" your hips back behind your spine allowing your lower back to "curve". (aka... do not stick your tail out behind you and wag)

2) "toe raises": this is done in a lot of different forms of dancing. stand with heels together, toes apart (about 90 degrees). hands/elbows raises abover the hip level. now... raise up on your toes as high as you can BUT DO NOT SEPARATE YOUR ANKLES! control your motion up and down, do not "thump" down or allow your weight to roll back onto your heels.

this is great for balance. also be sure to engage the abs and butt! it also teachs you about forward poise and conditions the inside edge of foot.

3) "shifts": same as "toe raises" but with your feet apart (either side/side or forward/back). raise up on toes (try to use same part of foot as "toe raises") and lower one foot to shift weight. then raise up on both toes and lower the other. shift your weight back and forth, forward and back.

again great for balance and control. builds ankle strength. don't forget to raise your hands/elbows above waist level.

these are just a few basic exercises that i use to develop the muscles that i think are important to "latin dancing".

[Medira]

Thanks for the exercise suggestions, dTas! :) Those are actually very similar to exercises I did during my ballet training and still do now. I find that the difficulty I'm having comes in keeping a smooth hip rotation when I incorporate the steps: mostly for mambo, cha cha and salsa. Rumba actually "clicked" so to speak, last week and has been progressing more smoothly now. I can do a nice, smooth, figure eight rotation, keeping myself centered (anything else just feels odd) as long as my feet stay where they are. As soon as I begin a basic step, a break or a turn, it starts to feel awkward and forced. I don't want to force my hips to move, I want them to move smoothly and comfortably.

[dTas]

here's another exercise...

"swivels": step forward onto a foot. now pull the other foot closed while turning the foot you just steped on 90 degrees (on the ball of the foot). stop and hold in 3rd postion still standing on the first foot (now turned 90 degrees).

then (after all momentum is gone) point the free closing foot in front of you (with no weight) only after pointing that foot do you shift weight through the toes like in the previous excersise; "shifts". repeat with next foot.

the sequence should go: point, shift, rotate. point, shift, rotate. when you turn the supporting foot 90 degrees be sure to concentrate on rotating the hips as much as possible and ending in 3rd position ("T") with the free foot infront of the supporting foot.

this helps teach the hips about rotation and using power of the hip to move the body. try doing it to a rumba counting 1 - point, 2 - shift, 3/4 rotate and hold.

i belive that when the body develops a muscle group that it will favor using that muscle group over other muscles so... if you develop the proper "latin" muscles through isolated exercises then the body will begin to use that action naturally to dance.

[Medira]

Beautiful. I'll start working on it tonight. :D

Thanks!