Breaking sides?

[ben]

How should sway be created in Standard?

After lessons with various coaches, I have heard some coaches tell me to never break sides, and that all sway comes from the hip down. Whereas other coaches encourage shortening the area between the shoulder and the hip, as long is this is done in conjunction with swing and rotation . . ..

I'm confused as to what to do . . .

Anybody have any ideas?
Chris?

[Katarzyna]

I think it comes from the hips, but the idea of shortening one side while stretching the other seems plausible... as long as you don't collapse the side you shorten...

Chris...

[ben]

From Luca Baricchi's Art in Motion series of video tapes, he advocates shortening the back muscles on one side, in order to create the illusion of stretch on the other side.

[Katarzyna]

I've heard that idea before.. I think you can shorten the side but not collapse it... important thing is maintaining tone in the body so the energy is still up.. I like to think of hips rather than sides when thinking of sway thoug... I heard Luca has a lot of ideas that most teachers don't agree with. don't know

[ben]

Do you know any of Luca's other controversial ideas? Would be interesting to share.

[Katarzyna]

Don't know much about his teaching. I was just recently around a conversation about Luca. People were saying that he has a very unique styly, and his idea differ from most other people. The main point from the conversation was that if you want to make his ideas work, you have to train only with him or using only his technique... Supposedly his technique isn't compatible with other styles... you can't mix and match... I never saw any of his lectures and never had a lesson, so I can't say it this is correct.

[Chris Stratton]

I tend to think of sway of the hips originating in the angle of the knees and sometimes ankles.

But there is a also a small stretch of the longer side - in that you can still have a head to toe curve even as you reach the point of maximum leg straightness and foot rise.

Calling it a stretch of the long side rather than a contraction of the short side may be as much semantics as it is physical reality, but it's important because so many students tend to want to contract the shorter side severely, without showing sway in any of the more usefull ways. This also tends to be sway for its own sake, rather than the usefull kind of sway which is a result of (and potential for) swing.

[ben]

That's a shame. . . I'd like to dance like him, but most people in NY don't teach his style . . .

[Katarzyna]

I don't think anybody here does... I love his dancing as well. I think Ieva studied with him a bit, no? and so did Erminio?

[Chris Stratton]

That's a shame. . . I'd like to dance like him, but most people in NY don't teach his style . . .

Could be informative to try to find video clips of a feather, natural, etc and look at them frame by frame... see if the description matches what he'd doing, and if you can figure out how to do it from one or the other.

[ben]

I think Alessandro dances very Luca-esque, and teaches a little bit of that style. If only he weren't in italy every other month.

[Katarzyna]

I also heard that Alessandro used to dance like Pino, but he danced with Luca's sister (or someone) and Luca tried to change his style to his own.. I heard it didn't work too well, but don't know...

[ben]

That's right! He danced with Michelle Barry, who is Lorraine's sister.

[Katarzyna]

Not sure about his style. Not sure if he's trying to go back to his original style, or to what Luca trained him to be..

[ben]

how would you characterize pino's dance style, compared to luca's?

[Katarzyna]

Frankly I haven't watched enough of Pino. What I think of usually is speed, precision, excitement. When I think of Luca, I think of fluidity, clean lines, clean movement, sway..

[swan]

how would you characterize pino's dance style, compared to luca's?

Totally different. In fact, I think someone has mentioned that Pino's style can never be reproduced because only Pino, his built, the way he dances produces that. Some people even criticized Pino about his weight placement is not correct. But hey, I LOVE Pino's dancing. It's very inspirational to watch.

Luca's dancing is highly refined. Pino's a bit more like techno-funky & highly complex. Their partners also dance very differently. Lorraine is very strong lady dancer, but not a huge headline, but very strong middle section & legs. Alessandra is one of the most fluid lady dancer I've seen. Her spine is super flexible. They are both active ladies, but in extremely different ways.

Luca - I watched his videos (the same one you mentioned). Actually I think all he did was to present the material from a different angle, that's all. Nothing that controversial (ok, the way he curve his feather step is controversial & was publicly being criticized at the Blackpool Congress 3 years ago by another world champ, although Luca's name was never mentioned, everyone knew who the world champ was referring to :))

Luca's swing dancing would be much better than Pino's (IMHO)...Tango, they're different styles, and I like them both.

[swan]

Now that I'm thinking about 'break sides' a bit more...Of course, teachers tell you to sway from ankle & work its way up...

But I think something a bit more easy to think about - if you just stand there, just bent to one side completely, that'd be like 'collapsing' on one side - I'd call that breaking the side. Instead, lengthen your spine while stretching to one side, like shooting a 'rainbow' over - I think that'd be more 'sway'? When you lengthen your spine during standing, you pretty much automatically use your feet pushin against the floor - thus that'll use your ankle or whatever body mechanies naturally... just observe what happens to your ankle, knee, hip...You can't stretch very far w/ the angle change...

So there... :) My very unprecise answer of sway (unlike Chris' answer :))

Oh, and one more thing, when you doing full swing w/ huge momentum, to stop that, the sway comes in.

You often see dancers (I know I do that - bad girl!!!) breaking the sides trying to sway to make shapes. Instead, let the natural swing & movement happen & than add or 'counter' that momentum w/ sway.

Sometimes, teachers may tell you do not 'over' sway or having sway that you cannot match w/ your swing. Because that'll make you look heavy.

[Ithink]

Now that I'm thinking about 'break sides' a bit more...Of course, teachers tell you to sway from ankle & work its way up...

But I think something a bit more easy to think about - if you just stand there, just bent to one side completely, that'd be like 'collapsing' on one side - I'd call that breaking the side. Instead, lengthen your spine while stretching to one side, like shooting a 'rainbow' over - I think that'd be more 'sway'? When you lengthen your spine during standing, you pretty much automatically use your feet pushin against the floor - thus that'll use your ankle or whatever body mechanies naturally...

So there... :) My very unprecise answer of sway (unlike Chris' answer :))


I like your answer very much :) I think it describes sway perfectly!

[Kitty]

That's a shame. . . I'd like to dance like him, but most people in NY don't teach his style . . .

well, Alessandro was trained mainly by Luca and Loraine for over 10 years, but I don't think he is in any way incompatible with other teachers.
Does everyone think his dancing looks like Luca's? What's in it from Luca?

Also a lot of top pros such as Giampiero and Erminio take a lot of lessons with Luca and Loraine, so how can they be using different technique.


I will agree with Chris that shortening side vs lengthening the opposite side are probably just different ways to say it or think about it. A teaching tool designed to prevent students from dropping sides. Muscles are not capable of lengthening, they are only capable of shortening. so there will be muscle contraction, but only of certain muscles. I think (I'm not saying I must be right, but this is the conclusion I came to) that dropped side (wrong) has certain muscles shortened which must stay long when the side is shortened correctly.
I think that the area right in the armpit, most upper side, is not allowed to be shortened under any circumstances.

[ben]

would anybody care to describe how mirko dances? I can see obvious differences in the way they dance (i.e. pino, luca), but it's hard for me to understand what the difference is.

[swan]

would anybody care to describe how mirko dances? I can see obvious differences in the way they dance (i.e. pino, luca), but it's hard for me to understand what the difference is.

Mirko is extremely dynamic & uses his body a lot. If you watch carefully - Luca & Pino, both are strong, but their ladies are 'matching' & & active. Mirko, despite I love Alessia's look (she's one beautiful lady), I find her a bit stiff but w/ strong base. So Mirko seems to do a LOT more. His entire body is doing for both, IMHO. But then, it may be visual illusion :)

Mirko to me is more like Chris Hawkins, but w/ the Italian flare. But Mirko's lady is no Hazel...

I saw their video on line figures. Typically I love watching picture lines as ladies' part would be very inspiring for me. If you watch Mirko's video, Mirko's the inspiring one, not Alessia. Good for the men to watch this video though.

[Ithink]

Funny, though I've only seen Mirko and Alessia dance once on TV back when they were amateurs and lost the worlds to Crossley/Jones (I will see more soon since I ordered some videos with them) and maybe their style has changed but to me even back then Alessia looked better than Hazel and I've seen Hazel dance live... To me the way her topline is so quiet and unbroken and not overly flexible to the point of sacrificing the frame is much more attractive than Hazel's overly active one with a frequently broken right shoulder line. As far as I saw Chris and Hazel's strength has always been their movement and musicality not Hazel's topline... But to each their own I guess - both are extremely amazing lady dancers in their own right! I wish I could do a tenth of what they seem to be doing :)

[swan]

Funny, though I've only seen Mirko and Alessia dance once on TV back when they were amateurs and lost the worlds to Crossley/Jones (I will see more soon since I ordered some videos with them) and maybe their style has changed but to me even back then Alessia looked better than Hazel and I've seen Hazel dance live... To me the way her topline is so quiet and unbroken and not overly flexible to the point of sacrificing the frame is much more attractive than Hazel's overly active one with a frequently broken right shoulder line. As far as I saw Chris and Hazel's strength has always been their movement and musicality not Hazel's topline... But to each their own I guess - both are extremely amazing lady dancers in their own right! I wish I could do a tenth of what they seem to be doing :)

I'll have to take some time to make a very 'small' clip to see if I could demo my comparison :)

[Ithink]

That'd be awesome - I'd love to see it!

[swan]

That'd be awesome - I'd love to see it!

OK - this little 1 min clip took me longer than I thought! Had to search for similar lines & angles between the 2 couples :)

I got a little more on Hazel, oh well...But you're right, Hazel is not known for her topline either. Both couples are good in their movement & swing w/ Mirko & Alessia much better than Hawkberry in their tango. However, I feel that Hazel's line is still fuller than Alessia.

And Mirko's frame is loads better than Hawkins' :)

Enjoy!

http://www.mmt-llc.com/comparison

[Chris Stratton]

Hmm, interesting clips... I see a bunch of situations where a slight failure to maintain parallelism in the upper bodies forces the ladies to choose from a slate of less than elegant options.

I don't think the issues are really with the toplines - they show up there, but the fixes are in the relative movement and orientation of the bodies.

[swan]

Hmm, interesting clips... I see a bunch of situations where a slight failure to maintain parallelism in the upper bodies forces the ladies to choose from a slate of less than elegant options.

I don't think the issues are really with the toplines - they show up there, but the fixes are in the relative movement and orientation of the bodies.

True...But overall, I just find Alessia's back a bit more stiff in general. Mirko always seemed to compensate for both of them on the sway, shape & everything...

But movement - absolutely powerful & nice & very smooth (the clips might not have shown it, but in general that's how I'd categorize their dancing).

Chris' frame has major problem (given a world champ status)...But Hazel seemed to work within that confine & still did relatively well, given that she didn't have the most flexible upper back either.

Speaking of flexible back...I'd say the ladies (top amateur & pros) came to mind are:

Alessandra Bucarreli (not going to spell check her last name :))
Katusha Demidova
Gioia (Domenico's partner)
Sara Andracchio (Andrea Ghigiarelli's partner)
Sylvia Pitton