What's the deal with salsa and hip hop

[pygmalion]

In my town, there are two main FM salsa stations -- the traditional salsa station, and the "pop" salsa station. I always listen to the traditional station, because that's what I like best. Well, yesterday, on the way home from the gym, I turn on the traditional salsa station, and guess what I hear? A bunch of hip hop songs in a row. Raps. All in Spanish, of course. Have you noticed this trend? Salsa combined with hip hop, or pop, or reggae? What do you think of it? Another evolution? A corruption of an art form? Something else?

[Salsero_AT]

In my opinion in music the only thing that matters is quality. Salsa is a mix of different styles so why not try to mix it with hip-hop elements ? The important thing is if the outcome has an artistic value or just came into being because a producer thought that more people would buy the record if there are some "cool" hip-hop things in the salsa song.
Do you know "Castigala" by Maraca ? This is a song i like very much and it has some jamaican elements in it. This is a satisfying example in that regard for me.

[borikensalsero]

I'm way ify on this topic. The number of classic salsa that have gone from amazing to throw them in the trash by new artists is absolutely ridiculous. I'm all for new additions but when the music becomes an MTV show to display a lack of talent it drives me nuts.

Out of all the new reggeton/salsa songs that I've heard the only one that I find appealing is the one with Victor Manuel singing, and only because he sings through out the songs and the beat is catchy.

Salsa has notoriuosly incorporated Jamaican Reggea into its tunes, and when done artistically correct the blend is amazing. however, when corporations try to get in the money wave they end up destroying music. Classic Salsa ended because of Salsa Romantica, salsa romantica is taking a step back to tropical salsa, and now it seems that the new wave from great to worse is Reggeton-salsa. It all has been becuase of money...

Time changes and so must everything else with it, but there come a few things that can't be added because of the totality of their nature, like Shiva's 112 Tantras, Jazz, Classical Music, and Classic Salsa.

[salsarhythms]

I'm not sure if what you mean by that is a genre known as
"Reggeton"...

It's been gaining a lot of popularity because of the younger
feel and generation to it.

It's a mix of rap, reggea, salsa, merengue (some times).

It's very popular and in Puerto Rico it's danced a lot...

There's also "Perreo" which is a dance that is danced to
this type of music...

Anyone care to elaborate...

[pygmalion]

Holy cow! I just looked up perreo on google. :shock: Not a dance I think I'll be learning any time soon. :lol:

Visualize those skanky chicks on dancehall reggae videos, wiggling their booties shamelessly. Now crank it up a notch, make it dirtier, and you have perreo. Yuck! :evil:

[peachexploration]

In my town, there are two main FM salsa stations -- the traditional salsa station, and the "pop" salsa station. I always listen to the traditional station, because that's what I like best. Well, yesterday, on the way home from the gym, I turn on the traditional salsa station, and guess what I hear? A bunch of hip hop songs in a row. Raps. All in Spanish, of course. Have you noticed this trend? Salsa combined with hip hop, or pop, or reggae? What do you think of it? Another evolution? A corruption of an art form? Something else?

Hi Pygmalion. I listen to the same radio stations. A year ago, the Classic salsa radio station only played Reggaeton on the weekends but recently to get a bigger listening audience, they've added more. To me, there is nothing wrong with reggaeton, hip hop, etc. I like quite a few songs from that genre. Celia Cruz used bits of hip hop in her last few CDs without losing the essence of Salsa and it was wonderful. But I must say that I love the traditional Salsa best. Unfortunately, classic/traditonal salsa is not considered the big money maker so radio and record companies and even the artist have to make the adjustment. But so much of our traditional style, get's pushed aside and the package is sold moreso than the music. Nothing wrong with that either but again, alot of the true talent gets pushed aside. I saw a documentary on PBS with Cuban Allstars and we all know how talented they are and also how they don't get much radio airplay at least not in this area. It's a shame because there is so much beautiful music out there. Young, old and traditional. We could say the same thing about other music genres. R&B is not the same as it was even ten years ago :D

There is a terrific article titled The Death of Salsa you might find interesting. Enjoy. http://www.descarga.com/cgi-bin/db/archives/Article19?qIpfgwnu;;842

[brujo]

Salsa is BORING.

Now that I've alianated 99% of you, I'll explain myself. There are certain things that separate what we call salsa with other types of music: the clave and the tumbao. The problem is, this is the way salsa has been around since the 1960s, eventually it becomes monotonous and dry. Or, as one of my non-salsa friends puts it, it's almost like they're playing the same damn song every night.

I absolutely love what musicians are doing with 'salsa' music today. Aside from the rap-influenced songs, there are also pop singers that either add or strip down the sound of salsa. Orishas, from Cuba, is an awesome rap group that mixes and remixes son rhythms to hip hop. The entire wave of Timba musicians are producing music that is different from the Gloria Estafan clones, reinventing the music each and every time. Then you have artists like Polo Montanez, who strip down the horns and drums from salsa, leaving just the clave, a tres ( cuban guitar ) and their voices.

Whoever says the new salsa is boring needs to expand their horizons. I recommend checking out the artists at www.timba.com & Orishas. It is only lately that many musicians have started experimenting with new sounds that relate to their traditional musics. My favorite non salsa ones are Andres Cabas ( Cumbia + electric guitars ), Carlos Vives ( Cumbia ) and the Gotan Project ( Tango + trance + dance ).

More about the history of timba herehttp://www.chucksilverman.com/timbapaper.html.

[SDsalsaguy]

Hey brujo, I'll make you a deal :arrow: You don't mess with my radio settings and I won't mess with yours, ok? :wink:

[brujo]

Hey brujo, I'll make you a deal :arrow: You don't mess with my radio settings and I won't mess with yours, ok? :wink:

No Deal.

What does this one do? dude, your music is all boring. what is this garbage? Don't you know salsa is a latino dance? Is that a Justin Timberlake CD in the case?

If you have a counterpoint, I would love to hear it. It's a discussion [ not truce ] forum. :twisted:

[SDsalsaguy]

Fine brujo, in that case I'll put it this way... music, like dance, is an art. There is no such thing as "the" right way. End of story.

[pygmalion]

Okay guys. It wasn't my plan to start a new salsa controversy. It's true. There is no right way. One man's meat is another man's poison. And whatever other cliches you know. Meaning brujo is welcome to his reggae or hip hop while SD can be a salsa purist. It's all good. I was just wondering what other people think.

I was raised in a house with at least three generations, and at least seven or eight music genres actively pursued, so for me, music is music. There's beauty everywhere. While I prefer traditional salsa, I can seriously jam to some reggae or hip hop. Whatever's there is okay by me.

The question I was originally hoping we'd get to is whether the dance itself is evolving with the music, or the music with the dance. What do you think?

[brujo]

Maybe I come across the wrong way. Why wouldn't we want salsa to evolve? Why do the salsa purists insist that salsa should remain the same way?

I understand it might be easier to teach if every song followed the same patterns, as turn patterns and such can be easily adapted. But look at the evolution of the son into cha-cha, etc. Isn't change good?

[youngsta]

I can't say I care to hear reggeton much myself. I love classic salsa!

[SDsalsaguy]

Let's follow up a bit on brujo's real question then... why do you, personally, prefer classic salsa? (Open to anyone by the way...)

[borikensalsero]

Hoy boy, you guys don't want me involved in this one... 1- Salsa Romantica is all the same, Salsa with new twists of hip hop sounds the same, tropical salsa all sounds the same. Why is that? Because they are practically written using the same music sheet. As my Jazz Friends puts it, I never listened to salsa before but why don't you go get your collection and play me some of that challenging music on and turn the radio station off! So, yes that kind of salsa can be boring!!!! However, there are those that sneak by and become classics... Ala... Viejo Motel by David Pabon.

I've had Salsa dancers from all over the US tell me what kind of music they play where they are from. I've taken them to a live performance from a Classic Salsero and they are stunned. They are like, I never hear this stuff on the radio where I live.

I have a collection of Classic Salsa that 90% of salseros don't know about don't even know about. Most salseros only listen to what they are shown, what is around them, they never go outside their way to seek what else is out there.

I recently read an article by a very saavy and world renoun salsa dancer from which mentioned that Willie Rosario might be good because he played for some fania members. I felt compelled to give her a hint of how she really should just say she dances salsa rather than say she is a hardcores salsera. Her statement said it all, all she knows is what is presented to her, failing to see that across the ocean there are more people. That is the timpical salsa dancer who fails to see that the music ins't just to dance but a lifestyle. Not a lifestyle of dance, but passion, knowledge, history, pretty much like a family member.

Classic salsa is a blend of all music types, there is an underlying consistancy but all around that consistancy there all these people playing different beats, different types of music and as my friend likes to say, seemingly off beat, that is to european mold.

There isn't any one music genera, in my opinion, that can electrify a room more than a well made classic salsa song. Not only the passion, but the story, the energy that it exudes, the belnd of other music styles. The dance that goes with it, the variation it has...

Orisha music has always been applied to classic salsa Brujo. It isn't a new thing, you just happen to find out that new groups are doing it, however, all they are doing is bringing old style back to the forefront.

I have nothing against salsa evolving to another genre, however when it is a step backwards so the muscially challenged can rap it, or use synthesizer skills any 6 year old can do, then that isn't art. What use is it to create another genre of music from salsa if you and I can grab a few buckets a voiceless wanna be, and create a song that because we don't understand the complexity of true classic salsa, everyone calls amazing.

Pa' los gustos los colores, translated to; to each their own... Agreed... However, there is such a thing as a person not being able to fully grasp the complexity of a given something, hence deem it unacceptable because he/she has yet to gain an understanding and required information of that given something. We see it all the time, the kids that say salsa clasica is the same because their ear has the slightest idea of musical variations/complexity/pitch and so on... Ofcourse, I'm going to think the chinese language all sounds the same, I don't speak chinese. But to those who undrestand it, have the backround means, they know that it goes well beyond my means of understanding. Hence, brujos truth of Boring-ness, yet my understanding of classic salsa as breathtaking.

Now, before we go on to say boriken don't understand the new salsa stuff. This new stuff is a smiple as simple gets, a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...

[brujo]

I have a collection of Classic Salsa that 90% of salseros don't know about don't even know about. Most salseros only listen to what they are shown, what is around them, they never go outside their way to seek what else is out there.

Such as? You make grandiose claims but don't list specific artists. Give me a list of top five groups that you find amazing, and I'll go hunt them down.



Orisha music has always been applied to classic salsa Brujo. It isn't a new thing, you just happen to find out that new groups are doing it, however, all they are doing is bringing old style back to the forefront.



If you read my statement. I mentioned a BAND NAMED Orishas. They are a RAP group that incorporates typical son elements into their music, creating an interesting mix. They remix songs like 'Para Ochun' and 'Chan Chan', adding their own twists to the music. They are, in my opinion, the top group that does this type of fusion, and I mention them as an example of the new hip-hop / salsa. Their lyrics actually have a little meaning, as oposed to the 'My wife died and she took out my donkey with her' lyrics in the other 95% of songs out there.

I give you 5 groups that have changed salsa to check out,

1.) Orishas
2.) NG La Banda
3.) Irakere
4.) Los Van Vans
5.) Charanga Habanera

Websites

www.solardelatimba.com
www.timba.com

Listen to them and tell me they sound the same.

[borikensalsero]

I have a collection of Classic Salsa that 90% of salseros don't know about don't even know about. Most salseros only listen to what they are shown, what is around them, they never go outside their way to seek what else is out there.

Such as? You make grandiose claims but don't list specific artists. Give me a list of top five groups that you find amazing, and I'll go hunt them down.



Orisha music has always been applied to classic salsa Brujo. It isn't a new thing, you just happen to find out that new groups are doing it, however, all they are doing is bringing old style back to the forefront.



If you read my statement. I mentioned a BAND NAMED Orishas. They are a RAP group that incorporates typical son elements into their music, creating an interesting mix. They remix songs like 'Para Ochun' and 'Chan Chan', adding their own twists to the music. They are, in my opinion, the top group that does this type of fusion, and I mention them as an example of the new hip-hop / salsa. Their lyrics actually have a little meaning, as oposed to the 'My wife died and she took out my donkey with her' lyrics in the other 95% of songs out there.

I give you 5 groups that have changed salsa to check out,

1.) Orishas
2.) NG La Banda
3.) Irakere
4.) Los Van Vans
5.) Charanga Habanera

Websites

www.solardelatimba.com
www.timba.com

Listen to them and tell me they sound the same.

Thank you for the clarification, my mistake...

Groups that are hot, Los Flamboyan, tipica 73, Alegre All Stars, La Selecta, Jhonny Sedes, Perucho torcat, Some of Lebron Brothers stuff, chivirico davila, Azuquita, Ocho Orta, Wayne Gorbea, Some of Spanish Harlem Orquestra, La Solucion, Puerto Rican All Stars, Henry Fiol, Larry Harlow...

There are more than 5 but I guess you can strart on those you can find. You'll have an easier time finding la solucion stuff, spanish harlem, Wayne Gorbea, the rest get a little tricky even on the net. If you don't know what you are looking for you'll end up being a CD that is from the 70s but is a compilation of Junk those artist created. Remember that just because it is classic salsa it doesn't mean it is good.

Listening to something for which our ears have yet to master won't help any. Being able to interpret and dissect what is going on in the music and how it is brought together needs to be in place before we can move on to admire a music for what it is, aside the catchy beat, loud bangs, and lyrics.

The more I get into music the more I like the complexity of the classics, Jazz, the origins of latin music, and the further I distance from the simplicity of salsa romantica, salsa tropical, and hiphop salsa. Good music is good music regardless of genre, the difference comes in how our mind chooses to see them. So while I think the classics are hot, you have every right in the world to see them as boring.

[pygmalion]

Hey, boriken and brujo! :D

Thanks to both of you for sharing some of what you know. Since I'm a salsa newbie, now I have lots of ideas of music I can look into! :D But don't end the discussion here, unless you just want to. I'm a newbie, but I'm looking to get educated. Tell me more! :D

Previously post #2

Hey guys! I'm curious. I took a salsa class a couple weeks ago on musicality, where we talked abut the musical structure of salsa songs -- the intro, the body, the montuno (sp?) section, the mambo section, and the recapitulation of the beginning. I was very surprised, actually. It looks like traditional salsa music has a very specific musical structure (or formula, if you prefer). Is that a part of the reason why some people find it boring? Because they can hear the musical structure, but can't hear beyond that to the many variations and complexities?


Previously post #3

Oh yeah, and while we're at it, do the montuno and mambo sections of salsa songs correspond to any partcular dance, styling, or noticable musical differences?


Ha! I have so many posts, I can afford to consolidate a few! :kissme: :lol:

[brujo]

Wow, so to get to 1900+ posts, you just divvie up one message into 3 posts. Clever, very clever... :twisted:

It really depends on what you like, there are subtle things that you can do within the salsa skeleton of classic salsa, speed it up, change notes here and there, put in a cowbell, drop in a conga solo, etc. I guess from a dancer's perspective it would make it easier to have instructional videos and musicality CDs made and say, hey, this is how you dance mambo and map the 1,2,3, 5, 6, 7 to the tumbao. The dissection of this skeleton might be an interesting topic for a monthly special ( salsarythm, are you reading this? :p - danos un muestra gratis, hombre ! ).

Or you can abandon this rigid structure and make up your own. Which is what the timba people I talked about before are doing. The problem here, of course, is that the music doesn't really fit in to the Salsarythm CD set, and since it's constantly changing, the music can sometimes suck, and other times be completely unexpected. Timba, in a nutshell, is just the middle ground between Cuban son and Salsa, where the Cuban artists like the Haranga Habanera are trying new instruments, creating their own choruses that repeat. Even in Cuba, there are people who dislike it because they find the lyrics vulgar, but the young people love it, it's the Cuban version of Snoop Dog Gangster rap.

When I say classic salsa is boring, I really mean that this underlying skeleton chokes the life out of the song. Sure Wayne Gorbea can be the most energetic and hottest salsa dura there is out there, and it is great to dance to the Sonora Carrouseles, but the variations within the music are chained and the artists are not free to change it. From a dancing perspective, it's great, you can teach the quick quick slow and invent cool turn patterns.

However, with timba, where you strip down everything to a smaller skeleton ( clave and nothing else ) and allow the musician to create a new wall of sound by adding, say electric guitars and clarinets or an entire string orchestra ( hypothetically ), the songs become dynamic and different, and keeps the listener guessing. It forces the listener to dance to the music, improvising as they go.

I am probably wrong, but the way Cuban Casino was taught to me, although there are common basic steps, the dancing is very improvisational, focusing on doing whatever you want to the music. In the same way, while steps are taught for argentine tango, the teacher heavily emphasizes that there is never really a real way of dancing tango. But when you start learning from teachers that come from an American influence, the rules become etched in stone, and the codified rules must not be violated, this is the way salsa must be danced, and religious battles betwen the on1 and on2 people ensue. Mambo is easier to dance with cookie cutter salsa, but timba is more danceable and it simply encourages improvisation, which some people hate...

Boriken, have you had a chance to check out some of my artists? What do you think of this violation of the NY tenants of salsa?

[SDsalsaguy]

Wow, so to get to 1900+ posts, you just divvie up one message into 3 posts. Clever, very clever... :twisted:
:lol: ...you noticed that too brujo? :lol:

[pygmalion]

It's okay. You can treat me bad, if you want. I spent my FREE TIME thinking about these issues so I could post thought provoking questions. And now I get this disrespect! :lol: :lol: It's all right. My feelings aren't hurt. :wink: :lol: But yes, I think it would be great to have some explanation of the structure -- maybe in a different thread. Not so people can feel constrained by the structure, but by understanding it, you can choose to use it, or choose to free yourself from it.

I think it was in this thread, where it was said that salsa, for a true salsero/salsera, becomes like a part of the family. That's the goal here. To get to know more intimate with salsa. :D

[Salsero_AT]

Try www.salsacaliente.at

There is an explanation of the structure of salsa songs there and how you can use it when dancing. 8)

[borikensalsero]

Brujo

Nope, sorry, I haven't had a chance to look up your artist but by your descriptions they sure seem deserving of a look.

I am glad you notice how improvisation is the key to dancing this style of music that you speak of. However, it is sad to see that you fell prey to Salsa teachers who put emphasis on spinning and combos and on top it all say that is the structure to salsa dancing and take the improv it has out of its dancing.

Salsa is composed of Guguanco, rumba, jazz, rock, merengue, cumbia, charanga, pachanga, son, son montuno, bomba, etc. Now if you have been taught that salsa is numbers and your instructors have failed to show you how to get to your inner dancer and instead have shown you how to do moves and steps you will fail to notice how hot salsa classic brings all music genre together and creates this unique blend that makes it so unbelievable.

You must improv with your soul when you dance, if you follow the patterns and combos you were taught you will feel restricted, only because you aren’t letting your soul lose. Your soul wants to do something but your heads says NO, This is what you have to do, hence you have trapped the core of your emotions in your soul. Next time you go out forget about dancing as per moves, do a few moves once in a while, stay within the beat, dance around the basic, and see what you yourself come up with. Let the music take you. The music is telling a story, it is giving you emotion, let that emotion come out and see what it tells you to do. Very soon you’ll be back at the Cheetah club in the 70s dancing salsa with the soul instead of dancing salsa in 2003 with the head. Then and only then will you achieve the mastery classic salsa throws at you.

Brujo, don’t fall into the trap that salsa must be done a given way and you must do it. Follow what your heart tells you to do, but sadly since the music is following the clave, you must follow it too. Getting out of it will mean that you stopped dancing salsa and have desired to go outside of it, hence, seeming to be greater than the music, if you aren’t one with the music you’ve failed to feel it and dance it. Just like the music has its basic structure so does its dance, so follow that one rule the dance has and let lose. You’ll improve through an entire dance, but don’t forget about your partner. You must be one with the music and her, not just yourself.

Every word you said about the timba's applies to old school salsa. You should do improvs to the music, not worry about combinations. That was what got classic salsa so hot. The musicians only followed the clave and were free to do whatever they wished around the clave. They were free to play. They followed what son musicians used to do before them. Their only constraint was, become one with the rest of the band, out of many become one. Dancing any music should be about self expression, once you fall into the American built trap of you must do it this way, you will loose touch with that little drummer inside of you that tells you, Brujo I want to do this. Now, salsa has a rhythmic patter, so sadly to truly dance it, you must follow it, no matter how wild the song gets it is following a pattern. Just like I’m sure tumba is doing. They must follow something; otherwise the songs will sound bad because the musicians will never become one with each other, that is what makes classic salsa great. The wildness of the music always becomes one, the band stops being individual musicians and they become one soul.

Now, Wayne Gorbea is hot, but not great. He is great compared to what we have now, so I decided to mention him because he is easy to find and is hot. Listening to Willie Colon, Johnny Pacheco, Hector Lavoe, Pete Rodriguez, Frankie Dante, Celia Cruz, Adalberto Santiago, La Sonora Poncena, El Gran Combo, Bobby Valentin, Yomo Torro, Alfredo De La Fe, Chivirico Davila, to name a few will leave you at an awe on how this musicians present your exact words about timba’s music. You have a predetermine notion of what classic salsa is, that notion is constricting you to look up on it and believe it that the musicians are being held back constricted, when in fact you have been taught to hold yourself back.

How can a dance with so many blends of music and dance styles and with percussion be looked upon as boring? The mind...

[borikensalsero]

Hey, boriken and brujo! :D
Previously post #2

It looks like traditional salsa music has a very specific musical structure (or formula, if you prefer). Is that a part of the reason why some people find it boring? Because they can hear the musical structure, but can't hear beyond that to the many variations and complexities?


I'll take this one by one because I can't seem to write a short post. :cry:
I'm going to get off the subject in hopes to make it easier to understand. If I can’t get my point across please let me know.

Lets compare Salsa music to making love...
You go out with your loved one, you have a great date, the flirting starts, talking is pleasant and indicative of future actions, the anticipation starts to build, the mood sets, the foreplay begins. Foreplay leads to the heavier actions, and those actions are followed by the climax, soon followed by a cool down period in form of a long hug and small soft talk until it ends…

Now, even when lovemaking will always follow a predetermine set of physical rules, it doesn’t mean that we must absolutely adhere to them, hence they can and are interchangeable. Just because those predetermined events are the makeup of the overall action of lovemaking, they don’t make it boring nor does it mean that those ‘rules’ are to blame for the entire action being boring, or every time the same.

The problem arises with execution and not the physical patters that are followed when love making. If the execution is poor, you will think of it as boring and if it keeps being poor and never changing then you will see it as all the same. However, most of us know that isn’t the case.

When speaking to, lets say, a little kid about sex. Their words will be along the lines of, Yuck, I’m never going to do that, it’s disgusting. Despite how truthful their current words are, those words don’t account for the fact that the kid is speaking from a lack of understanding about lovemaking. Well, the same happens with listening to salsa. It is an acquired skill. One that must be learned over time in order to fully grasp what classic salsa is all about. Yes, we can feel the music like lovemaking, but to truly know how it is that we feel it and what causes us too feel it as such we must first learn about it…

[borikensalsero]

Hey, boriken and brujo! :D
Previously post #3

Oh yeah, and while we're at it, do the montuno and mambo sections of salsa songs correspond to any partcular dance, styling, or noticable musical differences?


Wow, pygmalion, you must really stay up late thinking up this things.
The Montuno section is a call and response section, where there is either repeated singing (chorus) and instrumental solos. Depending what music genre the section is using is the dance that it belongs to. For example, the section can be repeted instrumental solos and choros likening a Cha Cha, so then you could use cha cha style to dance it. If the montuno section is from a son then you use son to dance it.

The Mambo section is an improv or arranged lines with new stuff... Usually usning wind instruments... Does it belong to any dance form? I would have to say the name doesn't, but the patterned play will belong or really not belong to any form.

Now that is the best I know, which on the topic of musical sections is scares. The sections are really just names to differentiante given parts in songs. My forte isn't music, but I can bet that all music follows predetermined sections to let the musicians know what is happening within the song. The intro, the set up of the story, the unfolding, the peak, then the end. The song has a life of itself, just like we as humans go from kids, to adolecents, to adults, to dying, to dead, the songs must follow that structure of its life span as well.

[borikensalsero]

BRUJO

Just finished listening to a number of songs. I've heard a few before, los van van I've known about them for a few years.

What do I think of it?
Sounds like they are going back in history and doing what classic salsa did. They are using instruments that La Flamboyan, Tipica 73 used to spice the new sounds of salsa. Rap like verses are very Willie Colon like who was the first person to ever 'Rap' in a salsa song. The Horn vamps are way Willie Colon, and the piano sound like they've gotten a lot input from NY City salsa, with pianists like Markolino Dimond, Charlie Palmieri, Eddie Palmieri, Larry Harlow, Papo Lucca. They are what I consider happy songs, their spice is between Salsa romantica and Salsa Classica, definitely much more than salsa romantica but not quite as much as the salsa classica dura. They are indeed hot, I would buy the stuff since it is a step in the right direction.

These new cuban musicians have definitely left the monotony of tropical salsa and salsa romantica and have gone back to their roots while adding a pop like sounds which they blend very well. I can't help but to think cano estremera when I hear La Charanga Habanera sing. There is so much rich musical culture in Cuba and they are definitelly capitalizing from it.

The music definitely has a strong son influence, as well as a salsa classica style. If you like this stuff, I'm sure you and I can sit down go through my collection, smoke a couple cigars, have some wisky until the explosiveness of the salsa clasica I play for us will kills us. You'll be surprised to hear your words about this new style in the classics. These guys almost sound classic with new beats, some of the stuff kills the songs but, hey, what genre doesn't have bad songs?

[pygmalion]

Lets compare Salsa music to making love...
You go out with your loved one, you have a great date, the flirting starts, talking is pleasant and indicative of future actions, the anticipation starts to build, the mood sets, the foreplay begins. Foreplay leads to the heavier actions, and those actions are followed by the climax, soon followed by a cool down period in form of a long hug and small soft talk until it ends…


I'm not going to quote your entire post, but I could. This is such a great analogy! I can see exactly what you mean -- about the musical structure, about the importance of execution, and about the uninitiated thinking it's "yucky." Are you sure you weren't a poet or philosopher in a former life? Cause you sure are in this life! :D

[brujo]

Lets compare Salsa music to making love...


Ya man, Casino is an all out swingers orgy, doing too many shines will make your palms hairy, instructional videos are the Kama Sutra and every man and woman out there is either an exhibitionist or a voyeur. The idea of competitions and shows kinda scares me... :shock:

[brujo]

These new cuban musicians have definitely left the monotony of tropical salsa and salsa romantica and have gone back to their roots while adding a pop like sounds which they blend very well. I can't help but to think cano estremera when I hear La Charanga Habanera sing. There is so much rich musical culture in Cuba and they are definitelly capitalizing from it.


I think we are on the same page here. I love the classic salsa that was being made in the early 70s, and I'm really glad that you dumped a whole bunch of artists my way so I can do some downlo... er, buying. A big part of its beauty is that the sounds were being experimented with and evolving.

But look at the 'classic salsa' produced today. Marc Anthony? Gloria Estefan? Gilberto Santa Rosa? It seems that they are latching on to formulaic salsa that has been proven succesful in the past, and it just doesn't appeal to me. I find it hard to see the next Tito Puente or Cachao in the new crop of musicians playing the 'Traditional Salsa'. I do want to clarify, however, that classic son, done properly a la Compay Segundo, can still bring a little warmth to my cold dead heart.

When my instructor introduced me to Timba, I couldn't contain myself. It was still the same music, but evolved. This is new, dynamic salsa, and the addition and experimentation with new sounds, hip-hop, other instruments, just makes it better. BTW, add Isaac Delgado to the list, he's pretty cool too...

[pygmalion]

Wow, pygmalion, you must really stay up late thinking up this things.

Nope. I just have a curious nature, and I figure if I'm wondering, somebody else probably is too. *shrug*

The Montuno section is a call and response section, where there is either repeated singing (chorus) and instrumental solos. Depending what music genre the section is using is the dance that it belongs to. For example, the section can be repeted instrumental solos and choros likening a Cha Cha, so then you could use cha cha style to dance it. If the montuno section is from a son then you use son to dance it. This is great. Actually, what made me think about this was your post under offers on the dancefloor -- the woman who broke into various traditional dances as the music called for it. Wow, btw. and at some point, I'd like to know a little more abuot this son dance you keep referring to. :D

The Mambo section is an improv or arranged lines with new stuff... Usually usning wind instruments... Does it belong to any dance form? I would have to say the name doesn't, but the patterned play will belong or really not belong to any form. Cool. This section is easy for me to recognize now. almost every salsa song I've heard has it. Cool. Thanks. 8) :D

[borikensalsero]

But look at the 'classic salsa' produced today. Marc Anthony? Gloria Estefan? Gilberto Santa Rosa? It seems that they are latching on to formulaic salsa that has been proven succesful in the past, and it just doesn't appeal to me.

This entire deal of classic salsa in today's music needs to be looked understanding what RMM did to salsa, once we know that, we can see why all salsa, aside from columbian salsa, sounds the same from about 1982 to today and mainstream america believes it to be what classic salsa was.

The closest we hope to get to classic salsa is listening to Marc's band play live without him sing and the reason is they do a mean descarga. Marc has tried to blend a bit of classic with salsa romantica. He, however, has failed with the classic style because he has taken vocals and made them the center of the music, as opposed to the classics where the vocals where equal to the instruments. Marc is known in the salsa world for his lyrics, the musicians in his bands are excellent, however they aren't given the change to go nuts playing. Hence, why marc has only sang songs that are considered classics but never achieved the musical genius of classic salsa.

Gloria Estefan is as far from the classics as salsa gets. No wonder sony decided to give Celia's album, Salsa ablum of the year during the latin grammys. An album that the salsa world doesn't even call a salsa album.

While Gilbertito, willingly got away from the classics because he wanted to sing the music he loved but romantically. He noticed that there 'wasn't', now a days, salsa-boleros, which could be just for sitting back and listening so he became a bolero singer. Gilbertito has sang with the best of the best, but he isn't known for singing classic salsa nor producing classic salsa. The songs that he has sang that can be considered classics where when he was a youngester and starting out his career. He is known more for his bolero salsa style. A style that many old purists say is lacking, but in today's standard the best.

I do agree with you that all that music, taking into account your style and taste, is monotonous. Where as tumba is giving us an example of what truly mixing classic sounds with todays music.

[borikensalsero]

This is great. Actually, what made me think about this was your post under offers on the dancefloor -- the woman who broke into various traditional dances as the music called for it. Wow, btw. and at some point, I'd like to know a little more abuot this son dance you keep referring to. :D

I can tell you a little bit about the music son (sounds like laid back-slower tempo- salsa, minus a few instruments). However, all I can say about the dance is when my instructor says, this is son, look, this is how you dance it, how you are supposed to stand, and so on. I roll my eyes, laugh and say, girl you've got to be kidding me, I'm never gonna get that.

Son is a cuban country side dance music from the Oriente part of Cuba, which uses elements of the spanish danza in form of the Cuban Danzon and african rhythms.

It is a sweet 'laid' back music which mosts popular artist in the US are Beny More and group Buena Vista Social Club, of which Ibrahim Ferrar and Late Compay Segundo are/were members of. The popular song Chan Chan, are example of it.

Sorry, I can't don't know much more than that.

[salsachinita]

Wow :shock: did I have fun reading this topic!
Borikensalsero & Brujo, the improvisation you guys talked about is very alive & well in Melbourne amongst my musician brothers! We are very lucky to have a huge 'live band' culture as opposed to venues simply hiring DJs. These musicians get a chance to descarga every week & everyone there get completely lost in the frenzy...!
Is this the salsa classica spirit we all all talking about.....?

[borikensalsero]

Wow :shock: did I have fun reading this topic!
Borikensalsero & Brujo, the improvisation you guys talked about is very alive & well in Melbourne amongst my musician brothers! We are very lucky to have a huge 'live band' culture as opposed to venues simply hiring DJs. These musicians get a chance to descarga every week & everyone there get completely lost in the frenzy...!
Is this the salsa classica spirit we all all talking about.....?

Indeed, that is the style I am referring to. :D Great for you to have a chance to hear your brothers live and full of spice...

[HothouseSalsero]

I'm going to do something I shouldn't do and reply to this before I've finished reading the thread (I have to go to bed soon).

I am ambivalent about this. The reggaeton I've heard doesn't sound like it has much salsa in it at all. I don't hate hip-hop (well, maybe in certain moods), but I love dancing to salsa. Mix too much hip-hop into it and it won't have the same feel any more. I'm not convinced the two can be blended all that much anyway, but even if the two genres were to be blended, you'd end up with a different feel.

On the other hand, yes, things change. Salsa hasn't changed that radically for a long time, especially considering that it is a form of popular music. While salsa tends to be more multi-layered, rhythmically, than the hip-hop I've heard, it also has to stay within a more limited basic rhythm than hip-hop. (I mean, from song to song, the rhyhtmic structure of hip-hop can vary more.)

I do try new things. I bought the Yerba Buena CD that came out this year, but was disappointed.

I think Grupo Niche has successfully experimented with integrating new sounds into salsa. I even like some of DLG's songs. I like some remixes I have heard, like the versions of George Lamond's "Que Te Vas" or Africando's "Yay Boy" that get played in the clubs.

Change things too much, and you'll lose whatever it is about salsa that we salsa lovers enjoy. Try to keep salsa from changing, and it will tend to lose its vitality. I'm not sure what the answer is. I don't want this music to die out, but realistically, it has an uphill battle against current pop music trends; and in general it has to overcome the fact that it is an old genre, while young people tend to want to listening to something that is new.

[HothouseSalsero]

(Never mind that Jay-Z says he listens more to modern rock than hip-hop these days.)

Now that I think about it, I was at a studio dance party once and the DJ successfully mixed in some hip-hop sort of beats, sort of underneath the main song, so my partner and I started during more get down kind of freestyle stuff, and it worked nicely. But that partly has to do with the person I was dancing with, one of my favorite partners who really responds to the music.

[pygmalion]

And lately(since this thread got started) the pop/dance station I listen to has introduced a couple reggaeton songs into their regular play list. It's not just the salsa stations anymore. I wonder what that's about. More dance evolution? Or just a fad? Or is salsa headed for a split -- traditionalists versus evolutionists? I could see that happening. Some clubs/radio stations developing a traditional following, some developing a more cutting edge crowd. There's definitely that divide in the R&B scene.

[borikensalsero]

Just a thought...
Before the new timba sounds came out a few years ago, there was another beat, something back in the early 60s to mid 60s, a music genre known as Boogaloo. Boogaloo is basically son with R&B/HipHop/Reggea incorporated beats/lyrics. I personally don't like that many Boogaloo songs, although many good ones can be found. Granted Reggea/hiphop wasn't the same then as it is now, but the idea has been toyed with for quite some time. It die out around 64 when the pachanga craze started, which too died rather fast around 69 because of the new sound "llamado Oriza" I mean salsa. :D Sorry, that is a line from Maelo's song Oriza. Nothing to do with salsa.

[HothouseSalsero]

One thing that occurred to me (and I was reminded of it by something someone said elsewhere on another salsa/hip-hop thread): maybe salsa will end up being music that continues to appeal to people 30 and above. Is it true that it's never been that much of a young person's music in most places? Maybe it is something that is there waiting for people as they get just a little bit older. Just a speculation.