What should we think?

[macha]

Last night, we attended another studio's dance party. A waltz came on, and we were getting up to join everyone else on the floor, when the DJ said "Ok, this is a Silver Syllabus waltz (sounded like strauss to me). This one's for people who know what they're doing. If you haven't danced our silver syllabus, then you don't know what you're doing. Stay off the floor."

On the floor were four couples. Two were very smooth and very beautiful. One was bumpy, lurchy, and... well, very much like us- beginnery- still finding feet, still unsure of twinkles, etc. The other couple was a very elderly couple who were just doing basics with rotation around the floor.

At the end, the DJ said "And there are our finest couples, thank them," etc. etc.

So, without sounding like some of our one-post wonders, I hope- I'd like to assume that we were somewhere in between the lurching couple and the elderly shuffling couple. I lack sufficient confidence in our craft to say we're good- because we aren't. It'll be about two years of weekly private lessons, hard work, and actual practicing our dancing before we're "good"... but I do think that we could have done all right on that floor. In fact, later on, we did. We were doing open twinkles, closed twinkles, and a few other elements we'd learned. We were weaving in and out quite well, and the only time we had to stop was when the same elderly couple swayed out in front of us, and then, without reason, stopped dead. When we moved to one side, they did the same, and vice versa, so we had to stop, and wait for an opening.

But... were we (and not just us- I didn't mean to personalise it- others stopped, looked disappointed, and left the floor, too) so awful that we didn't deserve to "share the floor" with silvers?

Is this a regular protocol for a DJ to say "if you suck, get off the floor so our regulars can showboat?" at the place we attend, there's the unspoken "Aww, look! It's Jack and Terri's samba!"... and everyone will step off and watch (slackjawed- Terri's a stone FOX, and Jack's a million feet tall with more moves than an OLena-bred cutting horse)...

But.. NOBODY would ever say "get off the floor so they can do something important that you can't do"... in fact, if you asked anyone, they'd be glad to show you how. I know that all four and a half feet of Danielle would personally gut-stomp someone being condescending- I watched her once- ME-OW.

I'm too beginner (2 1/2 months) to really know if I have a valid complaint, I know, so I was just wondering if this was "ok" or "not"? What do you think? It just kind of made us feel dumb to have to actually stop what we were doing so others could do the exact same things we were doing- some much much better, others on par, and some worse. I would NEVER ruin a dance for someone- we ALWAYS get out of other people's way, if we have to improvise or just stop, shuffle quickly away and start over, or whatever, and we always apologise profusely and personally- and mean it.

Gods, I hope I don't sound DF1PT-esque..

[swan]

hmmm...I don't think this is a normal protocol. I think it's rather rude! Social dance parties are for social dancing. Why restrict to people who know what they're doing?
It'd be interesting if some advanced couples trying to peeve the DJ & just going up there doing all bronze steps & see if the DJ would boot them off the floor!

In any case, what's the definition of 'know what you are doing' anyway?

Knowing Silver Syllabus 'steps' doesn't necessarily mean 'you know what you are doing'....

I could be going thru 4 weeks of bronze group class & just finishing up with 4 weeks of silver group class, does that make me 'know what I am doing'? I think NOT!

[macha]

I was going to say- I've read how to do a lobotomy, but that doesn't mean I A- know how, and B-CAN DO, Lol.

It seemed kind of "tacky", but then, the whole party was. The owner's son was so buzzed he introduced himself to us twice, an elderly lady tottered past us with an empty Smirnoff fifth bottle, and toward the end, they played uncensored rap music (before that, this is a "ballroom only" studio, mind you- they played nearly all COUNTRY. Ok, I am seriously allergic to country, I think...). The last dance, there were twenty people at least still sitting at the tables. They played a cha-cha. We got up to dance with two other couples on the floor. They left the floor, and by the time the song was done, we were the ONLY ONES LEFT.

Ok, i am a militant etiquette fanatic (this means that I TRY to keep it up, and I read about it a lot in hopes that I can be... good... or whatever... NOT that I try to police people... I hope you know what I mean... gah, that frontal lobe damage... nevermind..) and I am almost fearful of being The Last Ones Out like that. These people- all of them... just LEFT. Of COURSE we weren't paying attention- we were trying to count "one-two-cha-cha-cha, now-turn-cha-cha-cha".... and so forth... but when it stopped, we looked around and I whispered to J "Um.. let's GO... like.. NOW..." the owners/family were at the little makeshift bar smoking, and looking at us like we were... muggles... I think.

It was a very awkward experience. Emily Post's spirit was flogging mine with a very heavy book on "It is tacky to be the last people to leave a party, because it's over-staying your welcome,"... gah... I feel as if points have been deducted from some invisible score somewhere.

I need a brownie. I might even have something fried after this- I hope to gods nobody from our studio was around... I hate feeling like a dork... and I've done that all my life in social situations (ever heard of school bullying? Ever been the butt of it every single day since you were five? Issues Ahoy!)

[Laura]

What a weird night for you. I've certainly never been to a social dance like that, where they've limited who could take the floor. Really, the most that has ever been said covered a saftey issue: they were playing something you could dance either Lindy Hop or Quickstep to, and the DJ said "Lindy Hoppers in the center, Quicksteppers go around the outside!"

[Rosa]

Macha, I would vote with your feet. Just don't go back. And tell all your friends not to, either! :twisted:

Rosa :)

[mamboqueen]

That does seem a bit rude. If they had certain dancers they wanted to showcase, then perhaps that's how they should have presented it. I probably wouldn't go back a second time...

[pygmalion]

Amen. The DJ was rude, dude. That's pretty weird, IMO.

[cocodrilo]

I would like to say "You wouldn't see that at a salsa dance" (in finer print because there MAY be a VERY REMOTE possibilty of it happening)...Can't work the controls for fine print...

[fascination]

Last night, we attended another studio's dance party. A waltz came on, and we were getting up to join everyone else on the floor, when the DJ said "Ok, this is a Silver Syllabus waltz (sounded like strauss to me). This one's for people who know what they're doing. If you haven't danced our silver syllabus, then you don't know what you're doing. Stay off the floor."

On
-
I'm too beginner (2 1/2 months) to really know if I have a valid complaint, I know, so I was just wondering if this was "ok" or "not"? What do you think? It just kind of made us feel dumb to have to actually stop what we were doing so others could do the exact same things we were doing- some much much better, others on par, and some worse. I would NEVER ruin a dance for someone- we ALWAYS get out of other people's way, if we have to improvise or just stop, shuffle quickly away and start over, or whatever, and we always apologise profusely and personally- and mean it.

Gods, I hope I don't sound DF1PT-esque..no macha...IMO this is very rude and silver syllabus waltzers know that waltzing at parties is an a$$pain....those that even bother are getting good practice at floorcraft....again, I think it was quite rude...even though in my own private fanatsy world everyone always clears the floor when I want to waltz 8)

[liangjz]

That sounds really rude. Was the place really that crowded? Did their students really get in each others way that much?

I think if someone is going to make a dance open to the public, which I assume this was, then they shouldn't do things to exclude people from dancing.

If they wanted to limit traffic problems, they should limit the number of people they allow in. I've been to dances where they put the limit at 200 people. The first 200 get in and the rest were asked to come back (earlier) next time. If you get in, you shouldn't be asked not to dance.

-James

[Indiana_Jay]

So far, our only experience is at studio practice dances, which at our studio, are closed (only regular students and their guests are welcome).

Never have the instructor/DJs are our studio done anything but encourage people to get out on the floor.

But even with that limited experience on my part, I'd be shocked by the behavior you described and as other's suggested, head for the door.

BTW, our practice dances are dry. The only *******ment is the water fountain.

-Jay

[cornutt]

macha, that is bizarre. I've never heard of any such. At our studio, and other studios I've been to, they will occasionally call a break during the social to allow a couple or a group to present an exhibition dance, and naturally other couples will clear the floor during that. We always do these just before or after the mid-party break, when everyone is going to sit down or drift off to the kitchen anyway. We would never, ever call a general dance and then say that only certain people are allowed on the floor.

I'll admit that I have at times wished for a silver-only waltz. I have made myself stop dancing silver on a very crowded floor, because I pick up bad habits when I try to do that. However, even if we were going to do something like that, I think we could come up with a more graceful way to do it. Introduce it like: "For this waltz, we'd like to make room on the floor for our silver waltzers. So, if you don't do silver, please wait a few minutes, and right after this we'll play another waltz for our bronze waltzers." Then, at the end of the silver waltz, thank the other dancers for being patient. The other possibility would be to organize an impromptu silver waltz exhibition, which I actually think would go over pretty well. As it is, if I feel the need for silver, I just wait until later in the evening when some people have left and the floor isn't as crowded.

[macha]

Thanks for all the input. It was decidedly strange, and as much as we're looking for anywhere to dance, I think we'll just scratch that one off the list. We don't need to feel like dummies THAT bad, and we can do that on our own! :lol:

I thought at first he might have been just joking, or giving a friendly warning to people who didn't know what they were doing- but no, people started leaving the floor to sit and watch... the one basic couple and the other ones stayed... I almost feel like going back the next time, and if they do that, just stay on there, but that would be in very bad taste. The best thing is to just avoid them and give time, money, and participation elsewhere.

[Throwaway Overshare]

I can think of situations where announcements like that could be needed to give everyone a chance to dance, but this doesn't sound like one of them. If two dancers got married, the announcement might be needed the other way - this dance is for the relatives, all you friends of the couple either sit down or ask grandma. But you can also do that just by playing music at the wrong tempos.

Might want to review your cha cha timing by the way.

[Sagitta]

What a weird night for you. I've certainly never been to a social dance like that, where they've limited who could take the floor. Really, the most that has ever been said covered a saftey issue: they were playing something you could dance either Lindy Hop or Quickstep to, and the DJ said "Lindy Hoppers in the center, Quicksteppers go around the outside!"
I've heard this sort of advice at ballroom dances where teh dj advices those who are doing stationary dances to use the center etc, but nothing like what you got macha! Sounds like a scene to stay away from..your description of it.

[cocodrilo]

At salsa parties I've been to, they've told everyone to clear the floor for "performance time" but that is the entertainment the sponsors hired and everyone was game on seeing it.

[macha]

Might want to review your cha cha timing by the way.

Did you see us there? How do you mean?

[clave]

I would like to say "You wouldn't see that at a salsa dance" (in finer print because there MAY be a VERY REMOTE possibilty of it happening)...Can't work the controls for fine print...
Happens all the time in salsa clubs here: the dreaded BIRTHDAY DANCE! The less evil way it's done: the band or the DJ plays at most ONE MINUTE of the godawful birthday song and invites all celebrants to come out and dance, circle or not. The more common and more evil way it's done: the DJ kicks everyone off the floor and asks for a circle to be made for ONE birthday girl/boy, proceeding to play a ten-minute mix until the entire circle has gone. This pi**es me off because a) it invariably happens just when I'm in my peak form for the night, and b) it's terribly rude to all the OTHER people who have birthdays around that time but aren't a part of the "in" crowd.

[sunderi]

What a weird night for you. I've certainly never been to a social dance like that, where they've limited who could take the floor. Really, the most that has ever been said covered a saftey issue: they were playing something you could dance either Lindy Hop or Quickstep to, and the DJ said "Lindy Hoppers in the center, Quicksteppers go around the outside!"

That's been more of my experience, too.

And occasionally, the DJ at our parties will say, "This waltz is Viennese tempo. If you don't know Viennese Waltz basics, please sit this one out." I don't know -- maybe that's the same kind of tackiness?

[pygmalion]

Kinda, I think. :?

[fascination]

Kinda, I think. :?yeah but that one's borderline (IMO) b/c the safety issue.....have seen several bad blows on this dance

[Purr]

What a weird night for you. I've certainly never been to a social dance like that, where they've limited who could take the floor. Really, the most that has ever been said covered a saftey issue: they were playing something you could dance either Lindy Hop or Quickstep to, and the DJ said "Lindy Hoppers in the center, Quicksteppers go around the outside!"

That's been my experience as well. The only expection is when I've been to studio party in which someone is doing a special spotlight dance, which is announced as such-and-such student and his or her teacher is doing whatever dance.

I've never heard of a dance at a social studio party limited to a certain syllabus. :?

[Throwaway Overshare]

we were trying to count "one-two-cha-cha-cha, now-turn-cha-cha-cha".... and so forth...

[cornutt]

And occasionally, the DJ at our parties will say, "This waltz is Viennese tempo. If you don't know Viennese Waltz basics, please sit this one out." I don't know -- maybe that's the same kind of tackiness?

No, I think there's good reason for this particular one. Beginners who try to dance slow waltz to Viennese tempo will get messed up and learn bad habits; it's better for them if they just don't. And Viennese dancers move fast! There's potential for injury if you have couples who don't know Viennese clogging up the floor. It would be different if the DJ played a cha-cha and forbade dancers who didn't know cha-cha from doing swing or rumba to it.

[cornutt]

Happens all the time in salsa clubs here: the dreaded BIRTHDAY DANCE!

Now we're a ballroom and not a salsa club, so it's a little different, but the way we do this is: The lucky (or just embarrassed) birthday lady picks a partner to start a foxtrot, while other men station themselves around the floor. The music starts, the first partner dances a few bars with the lady, and then hands her off to the next partner. He dances a few bars, hands her off, etc. Once a guy has had his brief dance with the birthday girl, he is free to grab another partner and start dancing. So by the time the song has played halfway, all the guys have had their dance with the lucky :?: recipient, and the floor is full.

[macha]

That's writing, not actual dancing. I thought maybe you'd seen us dancing incorrectly. Not really accurate is it, unless you see a video or live footwork?

What's off about it? I didn't want to say ball-change or rock-step cha-cha-cha, or "and"...

Now I'm confused.

[DancingMommy]

Last night, we attended another studio's dance party. A waltz came on, and we were getting up to join everyone else on the floor, when the DJ said "Ok, this is a Silver Syllabus waltz (sounded like strauss to me). This one's for people who know what they're doing. If you haven't danced our silver syllabus, then you don't know what you're doing. Stay off the floor."

Im surprised you didn't knowck the DJs block off for that kind of remark. I know I would've....

[chica latina]

I've been at different studios and have never heard of something like this. I would never come back to the studio. Sometimes some dancers forget that they were beginners at some point. We should respect everyone for the efforts no matter at what level.

I've dance with beginners that are off time, but what do you do? I decided that I'm going to be a good follower and socially will dance to whatever timing they want (if I see I can't backlead them to the right time easily) and have fun. Have been in dances where people approach couples that are off time and I beleive it's embarrasing for them and should not be done in a social event.

[Another Elizabeth]

That's writing, not actual dancing. I thought maybe you'd seen us dancing incorrectly. Not really accurate is it, unless you see a video or live footwork?

What's off about it? I didn't want to say ball-change or rock-step cha-cha-cha, or "and"...

Now I'm confused.
It's "two-three-cha-cha-cha," not "one-two-cha-cha-cha" (the "cha-cha-cha" happens on 4&1 of the music, not 3&4).

[macha]

Oh. I thought I was doing something wrong. I was just writing it wrong instead! Lol.

[randomMysh]

That's writing, not actual dancing. I thought maybe you'd seen us dancing incorrectly. Not really accurate is it, unless you see a video or live footwork?

What's off about it? I didn't want to say ball-change or rock-step cha-cha-cha, or "and"...

Now I'm confused.
It's "two-three-cha-cha-cha," not "one-two-cha-cha-cha" (the "cha-cha-cha" happens on 4&1 of the music, not 3&4).

I was taught it as one-two-three-cha-cha instead. The counts are full beats, and the cha-cha are half beats. When people do the thre cha's, it ends up not really following what the music's doing.

[macha]

So, in other words, I should let our teacher ... teach? :wink:

[sunderi]

Kinda, I think. :?yeah but that one's borderline (IMO) b/c the safety issue.....have seen several bad blows on this dance

Yeah, they starting making the announcement after we had a couple of people fall last year . . .

[SalsaAmore]

Happens all the time in salsa clubs here: the dreaded BIRTHDAY DANCE!

Now we're a ballroom and not a salsa club, so it's a little different, but the way we do this is: The lucky (or just embarrassed) birthday lady picks a partner to start a foxtrot, while other men station themselves around the floor. The music starts, the first partner dances a few bars with the lady, and then hands her off to the next partner. He dances a few bars, hands her off, etc. Once a guy has had his brief dance with the birthday girl, he is free to grab another partner and start dancing. So by the time the song has played halfway, all the guys have had their dance with the lucky :?: recipient, and the floor is full.

It's pretty much done the same way at the Salsa clubs. But, it got pretty bad at one point at this weekly Salsa club. Almost every other week there was a birthday and a birthday dance for so and so member of this particular group that frequents the club who knows the DJ's. I know people from both sides of the Salsa scene so I just kind of observe what's happening. But, the outsiders of this group use to watch and then they used to tolerate it. Only those who knew members in this group danced and they were some of the best dancers in the club, so they were sort of showcased while others stood and watched. So, recently, the others outside of this group stopped paying attention to the DJ's when they come on with the "dreaded" birthday dance and the outsiders just kept dancing around what's turned into a pretty small birthday dance circle, now. Maybe you can keep dancing Macha like you said before and others will follow. LOL

[clave]

So, recently, the others outside of this group stopped paying attention to the DJ's when they come on with the "dreaded" birthday dance and the outsiders just kept dancing around what's turned into a pretty small birthday dance circle, now.
Sounds familiar. :( You'd think the DJ would get the drift and quit the silly custom...

[cornutt]

Almost every other week there was a birthday and a birthday dance for so and so member of this particular group that frequents the club who knows the DJ's. I know people from both sides of the Salsa scene so I just kind of observe what's happening. But, the outsiders of this group use to watch and then they used to tolerate it. Only those who knew members in this group danced and they were some of the best dancers in the club, so they were sort of showcased while others stood and watched.

Ah, I see the problem now. My take is that clubs that don't do something to make outsiders and new arrivals welcome are just shooting themselves in the foot in the long run. We do try; maybe there is more we could be doing. I'll think about it. One thing we like to do is, for our weekly prize drawing, we pick a first-timer to draw the numbers out of the box.

[liangjz]

It's "two-three-cha-cha-cha," not "one-two-cha-cha-cha" (the "cha-cha-cha" happens on 4&1 of the music, not 3&4).

Sadly, I've seen it taught the other way. More than half the time, it's because the instructor does not fully grasp the timing. (to put it kindly)

It's really annoying when it's a room full of beginners getting exposed to the wrong timing as their first dance lesson. Depending on the situation, it's hard to tell someone the lesson they just had from the perfectly credible sounding instructor was based on wrong timing.

I once had to leave a dance because I knew I would wind up spending the entire night dancing with beginners who were just taught the wrong basic.

[liangjz]

Now that you guys mention it, there actually are a bunch of performances and stuff that show up at parties. Pro performances are fine if the pros are good, but that's rare. Much more common are the pro-am or am performances that interrupt the dance. Sometimes they can drag on for 20-40 minutes. Now that I think about it, the difference between these performances and asking people to leave the dance floor so their "special" students can dance is very small. There is a matter of poor wording though. What macha described is still quite ruder even if it is ultimately the same inconvinience of being forced off the dance floor.


Someone mentioned birthday dance. (Though I think what I'm talking about differs from what was mentioned)

In my experience, it's convention at ballroom and non-ballroom dances that the birthday boy/girl gets to be the center of attention for a song or two (depending on how many friends are around) While everyone else just lines up to dance with them.

Even if I don't know the person, I think it's fine because I see it as analogous to when they make birthday announcements are restaurants.

[lynn]

hmm, i was taught either one-two-three-cha-cha-cha," or "cha-cha-cha-two-three" - either way, the cha-cha-cha is on the 4&1, but makes me wonder what beat do we start on??

[liangjz]

I can't recall exactly how I was originally taught for American style, but I think we always started on the one.

I think all of my Int style instructors have taught starting movement on the one with the two being the first full power step for a syllabus opening.

Now that I think about it, I think my open routines all started that way too. Why break the habit?

[lynn]

i think my american instructor starts on 1 and my int'l starts on 4 - not sure if that's the "common" starting beat.

[Indiana_Jay]

Our instructor taught us this way:

Begin with a step to the side (to the left for me, right for my DW) on the downbeat of a measure (count 1).

On count two, a "rock step" back with the other foot.

On count three, a finish the "rock step."

On counts four, four and a half, and one. ("four-and-one") do the "cha-cha-cha" step to the side.

On count two, begin a rock step, etc.

This pattern seems to line up with the music, because some instrument is usually accenting two eighth notes on beat four, with an accented downbeat to follow.

As explained to us, one could begin with the "cha-cha-cha." But doing so would require taking one's first step on beat four, which is not as easy as taking one's first step on the downbeat (especially for musician-types like my DW and me).

[saludas]

I've heard from many chain studio students that they are taught (wrongly) 1,2, cha ch cha, and then, after signing on to a higher level program, are 'reintroduced' and taught the correct timing, because the chains think that learning anything that does not start on 1 is too hard for a beginner...

[lynn]

Indiana_Jay, what you're describing is exactly what i was taught in rhythm - but it does feel a bit less syncopated than if i start on 4 (takes some used to, of course)

[dTas]

i don't care where you start the cha cha as long as you are on beat! :)

and the beat is one-two-three-four-and (1,2,3,4&) and of course the 4& is the cha-cha

[lynn]

oh, cool, i didn't know you can just start anywhere!

[saludas]

i don't care where you start the cha cha as long as you are on beat! :)

and the beat is one-two-three-four-and (1,2,3,4&) and of course the 4& is the cha-cha

The beat is 2, 3, 4 and 1.

[macha]

:roll: Lol, it's funny how threads always gravitate more towards "I know I'm right, it's like this", when nobody is really certain. And if they are, who's going to believe them because theirs is lost in between all the "wrongs"...

How about I just try to finish the dance on my feet, eh? I'll let you guys quibble about who's ChaChaMaster while I'm out there dancing it- wrong OR right- with an actual instructor who knows what he's doing or other capable dancer (or even my partner, who's as.. "capable"... as I :oops: ), not a printed out danceforums page of posts, LOL.

[Indiana_Jay]

:roll: Lol, it's funny how threads always gravitate more towards "I know I'm right, it's like this", when nobody is really certain. ... I'll let you guys quibble about who's ChaChaMaster while I'm out there dancing it

I agree there's little value in the "I know I'm right" posts. I do, however, think that discussions about differences in the way we've been taught are interesting and valuable.

[Medira]

:roll: Lol, it's funny how threads always gravitate more towards "I know I'm right, it's like this", when nobody is really certain. And if they are, who's going to believe them because theirs is lost in between all the "wrongs"...

How about I just try to finish the dance on my feet, eh? I'll let you guys quibble about who's ChaChaMaster while I'm out there dancing it- wrong OR right- with an actual instructor who knows what he's doing or other capable dancer (or even my partner, who's as.. "capable"... as I :oops: ), not a printed out danceforums page of posts, LOL.The scary thing though, is the fact that they're both right. I like your thinking though, Macha. Just get out there and dance it! :D

[DancingMommy]

Actually, it depends on what music you are using. So there. :P Some music from the 50s and 60s has a definite 1,2 ChaChaCha to it, while more modern stuff is a more 2,3,4&1 beat.

If you are doing a prep step (man's part: side step, rock forward, rock back, cha cha cha) it *would* be counted 1,2,3,4&1 and thenyou would continue on with 2,3,4&1. I do believe this is the official NDCA syllabus way of teaching it (IIRC from when I had to study the dern thing).

The moral of the story: just get on the beat. :)

[pygmalion]

Actually, it depends on what music you are using. So there. :P Some music from the 50s and 60s has a definite 1,2 ChaChaCha to it, while more modern stuff is a more 2,3,4&1 beat.

If you are doing a prep step (man's part: side step, rock forward, rock back, cha cha cha) it *would* be counted 1,2,3,4&1 and thenyou would continue on with 2,3,4&1. I do believe this is the official NDCA syllabus way of teaching it (IIRC from when I had to study the dern thing).

The moral of the story: just get on the beat. :)

Exactly. There's only one "and" and you can hear it clearly. So cha on it. :lol: :lol:

[liangjz]

I've heard from many chain studio students that they are taught (wrongly) 1,2, cha ch cha, and then, after signing on to a higher level program, are 'reintroduced' and taught the correct timing, because the chains think that learning anything that does not start on 1 is too hard for a beginner...

For some of them, it's too hard for the beginner instructors to grasp rather than being to hard for the beginning students. Besides, cha cha DOES begin on the one.



The reason some studios teach this the wrong way is because it takes too much effort to train their instructors on how to do it the right way. It is clear from my experience that many dance teachers at SOME studios get almost the exact same training as the stereotypical shady used car salesmen. The goal is to look professional, credible, and extract money from the customers. As a side note, I think these studios may also spend a few moments teaching their instructors one or two things about dance before sending them to collect $100/hour for private lessons. Actually, a better analogy would be between chain dance studios and chain fast-food restaurants.




The funny thing of course, is that the ones who don't quit eventually wind up working for years and years. This means that they'll eventually be able to say that they've been teaching dance professionally for 10 years while never having learned much of anything about dance.

Ok... I KNOW have lost touch with the original post topic, so let's keep rolling!

One of my first instructors, a repeated OSB Championship finalist took her very first ballroom dance lesson with an Arthur Murray's instructor. I had the opportunity to meet this AM instructor not long ago and came to the realization that she is one of these eternal beginners that I've talked about. She goes around touting about how she trained a champion dancer and how many years she's taught, but she herself knows almost nothing about ballroom dancing(she DOES know the chacha basic, though) I have to compliment her on her selling ability though. Despite my jaded opinion of all franchises at the time, she still managed to extract a sizable chunk of money from me before I knew what was happening.


I've come to feel this way because I've taken lessons from chain and non-chain dance studios, have had 2 partners who were formar chain instructors, am friends with 5 other people who were formerly instructors at various different chains in various different cities, and have talked to many others who've observed similar things.

[lynn]

eternal beginner? that's an interesting concept....

a little off topic - now this is making me wonder what makes a good dancer. Clearly if someone's been dancing for ages and is still dabbling in beginnerland, then clearly practice is not the only factor. Good instruction maybe? For the past few weeks, i've been arriving early for my lesson and sat around and see some of the more advanced students. One of the teachers pointed out to me a group of silver level students and told me they've been dancing @ least 7-8 years. I was quite distraught and disappointed to see some of them still struggling with the problems that i have - and i'm a total beginner.

But speaking of not teaching cha cha correctly because of the instructors' incompetence just really raises the ethical issue - i've actually known one instructor in my studio who...let's say, really shouldn't be teaching - and thank goodness he doesn't have many students. I sure hope he'll gain enough experience before he becomes "in demand" for both his and the students sake.

[fascination]

eternal beginner? that's an interesting concept....

a little off topic - now this is making me wonder what makes a good dancer. Clearly if someone's been dancing for ages and is still dabbling in beginnerland, then clearly practice is not the only factor. Good instruction maybe? For the past few weeks, i've been arriving early for my lesson and sat around and see some of the more advanced students. One of the teachers pointed out to me a group of silver level students and told me they've been dancing @ least 7-8 years. I was quite distraught and disappointed to see some of them still struggling with the problems that i have - and i'm a total beginner.

But speaking of not teaching cha cha correctly because of the instructors' incompetence just really raises the ethical issue - i've actually known one instructor in my studio who...let's say, really shouldn't be teaching - and thank goodness he doesn't have many students. I sure hope he'll gain enough experience before he becomes "in demand" for both his and the students sake.i don't really want to think hard tonight...been practicing too much and am tired and having a glass of wine...but here's a question: if folks aren't goodn enough to know or care that their teacher isn't grade A is it really all that big a deal?...if their goals are social and they're happy? what do you think? I haven't formed an opinion yet b/c it isn't where I'm at...(i.e hyper intense get as good as I can mode)

[macha]

Chain dance- that sounds like McDance or something.

[lynn]

Chain dance- that sounds like McDance or something.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

great name! but i think that might've violated some copyright laws!

[liangjz]

if folks aren't goodn enough to know or care that their teacher isn't grade A is it really all that big a deal?...if their goals are social and they're happy?

If they keep coming back to the instructor or group of instructors, then they're clearly getting SOMETHING they want out of it. What irritates me is that I think, for some people, the low-quality instructors are their first and, unfortunately, the last exposure they get to ballroom dancing.

[macha]

That, and who's a group of internet strangers to determine whether they're doing it right or not? They're going signt unseen. They don't even KNOW the people.

This is "typical hobby gossip". It happens here, in horses with trainers, in sports with other coaches, and so on.

The best thing to do is just keep your own school's business to yourself if it isn't positive.

WE are their resumes and portfolios by our actions and the way we dance. A good school knows that if they turn out a sucky bunch of idiots, then that's going to reflect very poorly on themselves. If they turn out people who can make it around the floor until the music stops without killing anyone or injuring themselves, and quite presentably at that, then they've done their job well.

I don't go around saying someone's studio or teacher aren't making the grade because I don't know them. Even if I did, I don't know enough about it to make that call. If I did, it's still none of my business. It shouldn't be anyone else's, either, unless there are teachers out there (I don't doubt it these days) teaching people in an absolute ass-backwards cultlike fashion so that it looks like their couples are Helen Keller and Ray Charles moshing. :P

[Rosa]

Re the great cha-cha debate, this is how I was taught it, and prefer to dance it:

1 2 3 cha-cha-cha 6 7

It works for me. But, as they say, "different strokes for different folks"! 8)

Rosa :)

[HF]

And Viennese dancers move fast! There's potential for injury if you have couples who don't know Viennese clogging up the floor.

This reminds me to one of the first events when I learned to waltz in a dance school. During a viennese waltz my gf and me were moving at the border in dance direction when a heavily sweating guy with a despaired looking partner broke out of the middle zone waltzing right to our position ... yelling out loudly: "Please, go out of the way ... I can't stop ... !!!" :lol: :lol: :lol:

[fascination]

That, and who's a group of internet strangers to determine whether they're doing it right or not? They're going signt unseen. They don't even KNOW the people.

This is "typical hobby gossip". It happens here, in horses with trainers, in sports with other coaches, and so on.

The best thing to do is just keep your own school's business to yourself if it isn't positive.

WE are their resumes and portfolios by our actions and the way we dance. A good school knows that if they turn out a sucky bunch of idiots, then that's going to reflect very poorly on themselves. If they turn out people who can make it around the floor until the music stops without killing anyone or injuring themselves, and quite presentably at that, then they've done their job well.

I don't go around saying someone's studio or teacher aren't making the grade because I don't know them. Even if I did, I don't know enough about it to make that call. If I did, it's still none of my business. It shouldn't be anyone else's, either, unless there are teachers out there (I don't doubt it these days) teaching people in an absolute @$$-backwards cultlike fashion so that it looks like their couples are Helen Keller and Ray Charles moshing. :Pyeah...I guess as I reflect upon it with some sleep and some coffee under my belt....who cares? I mean if they are happy and aren't into intense mode...good for them...and truly even if one does develop a taste for comps...If you go to them and start seeing your instructor and all of his /her students getting dusted....you can always switch if it matters to you....and you think its the instruction that is lacking

[fascination]

And Viennese dancers move fast! There's potential for injury if you have couples who don't know Viennese clogging up the floor.

This reminds me to one of the first events when I learned to waltz in a dance school. During a viennese waltz my gf and me were moving at the border in dance direction when a heavily sweating guy with a despaired looking partner broke out of the middle zone waltzing right to our position ... yelling out loudly: "Please, go out of the way ... I can't stop ... !!!" :lol: :lol: :lol:ROTFL you've met my husband then?....he never learned anything but the basic so watch out....when my instructor (a.ka. "the boss" these days) and I do VW every once in a while during practice, b/c we both sweat like a hot louisiana afternoon, when we open up and he sort of throws me out there (can't remember the name of the move) I will go flying ...like the length of a football field b/c our hands got too sweaty.....always fun to wonder which bone is broken before rising to do it all over again :lol:

[HF]

when my instructor (a.ka. "the boss" these days) and I do VW every once in a while during practice, b/c we both sweat like a hot louisiana afternoon, when we open up and he sort of throws me out there (can't remember the name of the move) I will go flying ...like the length of a football field b/c our hands got too sweaty.....always fun to wonder which bone is broken before rising to do it all over again :lol:

Oh yes, this is also a popular one ... :lol:

[macha]

:roll:

[fascination]

:roll:speechless? :wink:

[pygmalion]

And Viennese dancers move fast! There's potential for injury if you have couples who don't know Viennese clogging up the floor.

This reminds me to one of the first events when I learned to waltz in a dance school. During a viennese waltz my gf and me were moving at the border in dance direction when a heavily sweating guy with a despaired looking partner broke out of the middle zone waltzing right to our position ... yelling out loudly: "Please, go out of the way ... I can't stop ... !!!" :lol: :lol: :lol:

OMG! That's hilarious! :lol: :lol:

[macha]

Happy feet, I've got some happy feet! :D

[macha]

Followup:

Found out why everyone purposely left the dance floor AND the establishment when we danced our last cha-cha. It was because it was an open-hold position cha-cha with cross-body leads (yes, we made very sure we had enough space to do this- we know not to ride an elephant into downtown New York), triple chasses, etc. and "It isn't the acceptable style that WE teach. "

Ok, does this sound like DF has lately on cha-cha? LOL

But no, seriously- It was because it was a style the school owners didn't like, and verbatim "You were having too much fun with it- nobody that goes there knows how to do that, so you made them mad."

:shock:

Wait- nobody there knows how to stumble over their own heels, and have to start over, or count instead of chat? OR stop completely because they're cracked up because of having a sudden, unbidden "Diarrhea, Cha-cha-CHA!" Beavis and Butthead thought moment? Wow.

But apparently word traveled fast that some Evil Newbies from the Other Place stormed their innocent Elysian, Rented Factory Building cum Foot-Smelling Studio Paradise.

Ah, well. It's good to know I still got it! :twisted:

PS: Everyone there was really dressed to the NINES, right? Well, come to find out that one of them works at a Dillard's- she's sneaking them clothes to borrow out the back door when the mall closes, so they can return them later! *snicker*

Gotta love Kaintuck's version of "class", eh?. Makes me have an unnatural fondness for sheep- I wonder, would they do the Paso Cuarte?. :shock: ... :wink: :lol: