holding up that frame

[pianoman]

ran into this problem last night...

what can i do when I'm dancing ballroom socially (like a waltz, slow fox, or quickstep to some extent) and my lady partner just doesn't frame up properly and leans all over me causing intense tiredness in my shoulders... i tried to politely suggest a remedy but it didn't work and I had to terminate our dance and felt bad about it...

I don't dance as a follow myself;
so what can I suggest to the woman if she's killing my arms and shoulders? and how should i say it (if at all)?

[mamboqueen]

good questions...a lot of times I'll get a lead who has his right arm so low, my left arm can't connect with it and it can be a little fatiguing after a while.

Having said that, my teacher keeps telling me I'd make a good linebacker because my right arm is a little overbearing at times for him. Too old for football at this point.

[pianoman]

i guess one could be a bigot and refuse do dance waltz, slow fox and quickstep unless it's someone I know I can dance well with... but in a social setting I don't wanna go down that road

[spatten]

I think that you are just going to have to accept that the vast majority of social dancers don't have a well develpoed frame, don't use their weight properly - and work with it. If it is really bad don't ask the lady to dance any more numbers.

As a leader the man is really in charge of the frame - so you have more you can do about it than the followers stuck with a lousy lead do.

Also, I wouldn't try to force the lady into too "competitive" style a frame. Refrain from body contact - social dancing isn't about this - unless you are truly trying to practice.

[pianoman]

thanks spatten

with the utmost respect, my question was precisely "what", as a man I can actually do about it... please elaborate?

and I never realized that I might be trying to force a 'competitive hold' onto my partner... do you mean dancing without the hip right side contact?

[Serendipity]

i have the same problem with men. I frequently miss or try to salvage leads because they have virtually no frame and weak unsteady leads. When i'm with my friends i keep them in check by sporatically stopping, if we colide then they get the picture. The other option being that if they have poor dance postion i won't move and they will walk into me, of course they generally have realized their error by then. The third thing i do with them is before we start dancing i push into their dance space and we do a little "tug of war" to get them thinking about maintaing a proper frame and tension. With new fellas i don't know i grit my teeth and bear it if its only one dance. However if they as repeatedly i provide a very gently worded pointer about keeping tone in their frame which tends to help dramatically. When i dance with women i do the same to them too. I was attempting to teach a friend WCS but she wouldn't keep her frame, so i gave her a really strong lead. She was surprised when i ran into her and started to pay more attention to her frame. Every time i notice her sliping on it i give her really strong leads to make her remember. She doesn't want to lose her balance and i want us to be able to flow together so she can learn more.

I suppose for the most part unless your willing to kindly and gently give someone a few pointers about dance position you just have to grin and bear it. You can always push your friends around though sometimes its a lot of fun. I suppose if you don't want to take the time for a quick lesson giving a several big leads will get them to hang on if they arn't paying attention

[spatten]

Sure pianoman - I will try to elaborate. One thing I do want to point out is that I social dance in the states - I'm not sure where you are from. But Europe and other cultures dfinately social dance differently - and my advice is probably not applicable.

So here is what I would not do -

Stop dancing. Try to correct the lady.

What I might do - (and have done)

Try to present a nice wide open frame - this will probably make it more difficult for the lady to put her weight on you. I can't really think of anything else you can do to help her. Perhaps if you know what you are doing, and the lady asks for advice then I would say something. But most people are not going to be able to correct their dancing in the middle of one dance in a social situation.

My thingking comes from a social grace perspective more than anything else. I mean we are men we can hold these ladies up if we have to - though I agree it probably does not help our dancing.

I just see it as a cost of enjoying the social dance. Perhaps others on this board will have more thoughts. I feel like I haven't answered your question.

[pianoman]

thanks for the advice...

it's *******ing to know that ladies have the same problem too!

your idea of "shocking" the partner by running into them or having a little tug of war seems an effective way to 'remind' them to keep their frame up

and yes, I guess it's part and parcel of the social dance scene... but hopefully we can bounce ideas on how to maximize our enjoyment and technique with someone who can't really properly frame up

[Chris Stratton]

This is kind of running off on a tangent to talk about a competitive ideal, but perhaps a little of it can influence social dancing.

I believe very strongly in frame connection, but that doesn't necessarily require firmly set arms. Yes, with an inexperienced or not yet sensitive and expertly balanced partner, using a frame connection may require keeping the arms pretty heavily toned in order to give them a lot to feel.

Ultimately though, we don't want excessive tension in the frame, and might try to think of the hands as holding the partner more than the arms positioning them. I'm starting to think that maybe the hands are charged as much with feeling where the partner is, as they are supposed to indicate where you are - hands can manipulate, but they are also one of our best sensory organs. While I've lately been using a lot of body-core tone, I've been trying very hard to keep my arms light. I work on things like picking up my frame more from the wrists than the elbows, trying to avoid setting or locking the muscles in my arms. Perhaps you've heard a teacher say that "your hands belong to your partner" - I think that may be a way of arguing something similar.

But with an uncertain social partner, making your own body a trustworthy-solid reference can help... as long as you don't take it to the point of cruelly inflexible.

[discovery]

Originally Posted by pianoman

so what can I suggest to the woman if she's killing my arms and shoulders? and how should i say it (if at all)?

In my best Ahhhnold impression:
"This daunce is terminated."

Maybe I should start using that.

IMHO, I wouldn't suggest saying anything about it. Unless you're a teacher or a clearly superior dancer (as seen through the eyes of your partner!) they will probably resent you for correcting their dancing and likely not change anything about their dancing in any case. Sometimes you will be able to sense that a lady (usually an enthusiastic but humble beginner) will be receptive to correction, but in the general case I would advise against doing it.

I find this happens more often not with total beginners but with women who have been dancing for a while but have had no/minimal/poor instruction but "think" they know how to dance as long as they have a good strong lead! Usually they'll tell you--as they lead themselves into an underarm turn--how wonderfully they danced with their father or ex/dead husband.

What I do in this situation is either:
1) lower my arm quite a bit so there is nothing for her to rest on.
2) view it as an opportunity to strengthen my shoulder etc. and do my best to maintain my frame despite the excessive pressure.
3) choose to dance with that person dances where you can be in an open position more of the time, such as swing, salsa, etc.
4) avoid dancing with that person. Maybe not totally but at some lower ratio than everyone else.