Tango Argentino > Abrazo - The Embrace

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by bordertangoman, Apr 19, 2011.

  1. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Not necessarily. In a pivoting ocho (back or otherwise), there is dissociation (twisting) going on, certainly. But for milonguero ochos, then no. The feeling with milonguero (crossing) ochos is of the hips staying parallel to the leader, but with one side or the other "sinking" or lowering as you stretch the side of the body to take that back/side step with the free leg.

    This sounds like two different concepts going on. If you're considering dissociation to be the separation of movement between the pelvis and upper body, then that happens all the time. Obviously. There is no way to walk and move the legs and hips while maintaining a smooth, constant contact in the embrace without it. I have never heard this use/definition of "dissociation". When talking about walking comfortably outside (meaning outside partner? as opposed to in line?), then yes, you have to use dissociation...of the rotational sort.
     
  2. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    it is an essential part of cross-system; the only terminology I've found to describe it is :-

    Contrapaso :Weight change used to switch between parallel and cross system of walking.
     
  3. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    I don't disagree--the man being able to change weight without the woman feeling it is integral to AT, not just the cross system. It gets used all the time. I just have never heard the term "dissociation" used to describe it. I have always heard "dissociation" used to describe "twisting", aka rotating the hips and shoulders independently of one another.
     
  4. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    I don't think it's actually necessary to dance apilado to do milonguero ochos. But it's certainly easier.

    Does it involve an Englishman, an American and an Argeninian walking into a bar?
     
  5. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    To be fair, I was trying to describe this to a teacher on Tuesday, and she thought I was describing ochos in close embrace, so it's not like the concept's an easy one to grasp.
     
  6. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    I'm actually saying it's either - it's an intended separation, sometimes of
    the direction of the pelvis from the chest or the other way round. I suspect
    it may be what some teach as an isolation though I have no experience.

    You've been to D&M workshops? But yes but that isn't normally regarded
    as dissociation as it's a whole body torsion with no purposeful isolation.

    And quite a lot of followers don't seem to be able to do in dance what
    they normally make use of to a lesser extent in normal non-dance life.
    I wouldn't use dissociation to describe that, probably confusion!
     
  7. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    And it not necessarily so easy to do either, depending on how much flexibility one does or doesn't have. I remember one private lesson I had where we worked for a good while on sinking the hip of the free leg. Just crossing back ochos, in open position, with the teacher's hands on my hips encouraging me to stretch and sink the free hip. I know as a result of that that I am able to sink my left hip more easily than my right...at least until I get good and warmed up.

    (One thing I miss from my lessons is the chance, once every two weeks, to get my muscles really warm and flexible. It always felt so good to be able to crack my back again finally--something I can't really do anymore unless my muscles are very warmed up, just because my back has gotten so stiff in the last couple of years. Sigh.)

    ETA: Another thing which just occurred to me... It can take a while to realize that the hips can be free enough to really do that. So often it's easy to think about movement coming from the legs...maybe from the hips downward. But for these ochos to work (and so many other things as well--like just good walking) the movement really needs to come from the ribcage all the way on down. So you've kind of got competing ideas of keeping your core toned (not going all floppy and swaybacked, yada yada), but also loosening your sides and the muscles in your lower back and pelvis and whatnot in order to get that movement in the lower back/hips. When I manage to get things all together, I just keep thinking of something another D-F person said in the BR forum: her teacher telling her (in the midst of a Standard lesson) to "pee all over the floor". Sounds strange, and I had no clue what was meant by that...and then I learned how to really move from the ribcage, and to relax the muscles in my hips and pelvis and whatnot...and damned if the idea of peeing all over the floor didn't start to make sense. But that takes time. But...oh, when it comes together and you feel that looseness and freedom through your body...everything transforms. Walking feels completely and utterly different...and divine. So feminine, so powerful.
     
  8. ant

    ant Member


    BTM have you got the bold bit the right way round? And by that I mean the implication that the leader dissociates to make a weight change.

    I can think of situations where I dissociate in order to lead a step or weight change by the follower without any step or weight change myself but I can't think of any situation where I need to dissociate in order to weight change for myself only.
     
  9. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    so how would you make a weight change that was one that the follower didnt follow?
     
  10. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    It's a fancy word for twisting.

    ;)
     
  11. LoveTango

    LoveTango Member

    Normally when a leader does weight change, the whole body responds to the shifting of weight, which is accompanied by a slight sway of your body toward the side of the new working foot. However, if you don't want the follower to change with you, you have to limit the weight change effect to below your torso. (i.e. dissociation - added during editing)

    Try this: bend the knee of the former working foot (without position change of other part of your body), so to make the other foot to support your body. This way the weight get shifted to the other foot.

    --
    haha
    Just realized that your question is a rhetorical one. I was feeling a bit embarassed trying to answer a question from a pro. Well, consider my reply as my answer to a quiz. :)
     
  12. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    no it wasnt rhetorical; i was asking how you would do this. But i do know how i do it and involves isolating/dissociation what happens below my waist so that any torso movement is impercetible.

    (If this fails distraction works quite well; say "Look there's Sebastian Arce" and when she turns to look you change your weight. ;) )

    I dont have a problem with the use of the word. I was taught how to isolate my hips by a belly dancer so you can movement in several different planes. I just think calling scratching my nose with my hand dissocation is a bit grand. If you want the woman to rotate her hips without moving her chest or vice versa, just ask her to do that.
     
  13. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    its like the old saying men sweat, women glisten

    men dissociate, women twist..:lol:
     
  14. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    we need to turn this into a verb.....

    Contrapassorate?
    Contrapasserize?

    I expect the Germans have a word for it:

    ÄnderungsgewichtohnebewegendeBrustimdoppeltenLohn
     
  15. ant

    ant Member

    Generally during the followers step when I wanted to do the weight change.
     
  16. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    This is an interesting concept - making weight changes imperceptible. I only do this with complete beginners, who try to mirror my every step. With experienced dancers I don't mind at all that they know I've changed weight, sometimes it's part of the dance. I just make sure they don't feel a lead to change their weight.
     
  17. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    Wow, it must be a great step, the way they do it in Germany.
     
  18. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Yeah, me neither..

    Maybe it's a Brit thing.
     
  19. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Agree with both parts.
     
  20. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    it maybe coming from Holland too... its now called Torsion (I just consulted The Oracle)
     

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