Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by bordertangoman, Apr 19, 2011.
At last, I understand what the German teacher meant by that.
I actually tried this last night, and I "lost" 1.6 pounds.
The only thing that surprised me was that the "lean" required was quite servere.
This "weight loss" corresponds to the "horizontal force" produced when ny wieght goes "into" the wall.
There is evidence that this force is real, and it can be demonstrated by wearing very slippery socks on a very slippery type of flooring.
DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME!
Since this "horizontal force" is a result of gravity (it would not be there if there were no gravity, and I can't think of any OTHER thing that would account for it) I personally have no problem with thinking of it as "weight".
Sorry Steve, No.
If you lean too much all bets are off.
If you lean enough that you are putting a horizontal component
into your feet then you are beyond the limits of your axis
and you become a totally different kind of stressed beam
with friction at the feet keeping you in place and you are indeed
imposing a load with a vertical component on the wall.
That is not what is happening in Tango.
Again no. Weight caused by gravity cannot disappear into the wall horizontally.
You have friction changing all the rules. If you impose that sort of horizontal
force at the scales mine freak and won't read out all. Sprung scales
loaded like that are likely to just give freak readings.
That force is real because you've created something that is not
a tango force. You've created the equivalent of being off axis.
Wish I hadn't started this now.
Back to school for you!
Yes. We call it apilado.
No. It IS what is happening in tango. It's what is happening when I and others refer to being "off their axis", often what is called (as Steve pointed out) apilado. Both partners are leaning enough, from the ankle, that they are beyond the point of their own balance. They are leaning on, and propping up, each other. If one were to move away suddenly or disappear (not that it can, obviously, but for the purpose of explanation) the other would fall flat on their face...or have to take another step forward.
I know what apilado is but the apilado you describe is more like the
exaggerated form in show tango and poses. Milongueros dance apilado
but it isn't as extreme as you describe. It's variable too in the course
of the different movements. I dance apilado but I carry none of my
I've given up on this now. Words in a forum fail to express a feeling.
They may not express a feeling, but they can more-or-less describe a reality. What you are talking about — when there is forward pressure but both partners are on their own axes — is what's commonly referred to as milonguero style. What most people call apilado style is when there is only one axis for the couple, a shared axis that is the fusion of their two off-balanced axes. You would not be carrying their weight exactly... just that your postures offset each other in such a way as to redirect some of the force from the feet horizontally into the floor via friction. This way of dancing is extremely variable (not only for each specific movement, but also based on the whims of both the leader and follower) and it requires different sensitivities and training to do than would an on-axis lead/follow relationship.
This is what people mean when they talk about apilado. You are free to have your own definition of course, but take it from me, you're going to be doing a lot of mental translating if you want to relate to what other people are saying!
Hehe. Not to throw another wrench in it, but in my opinion apilado and "milonguero style" are the same thing.
And again, to nitpick a little bit, apilado does not necessarily mean that both partners are completely off their axis. The forward presence (weight, whatever you want to call it) is matched by both partners to the comfort level of the smaller of the two. Which is usually the female. It's entirely possible for the follower to be off axis, but the leader is on axis.
(See Pyg? You're never going to get complete agreement. )
Are these supposed to be mutually exculsive ? I prefer to dance in close embrace mostly, but I tend to think of my close embrace as elastic ...
And to disturb the beehive again, how is VU different from V ?
Ehhhh...I disagree about apilado and milonguero being the same thing. I get what you're saying about relative size differences meaning that both may not be off-axis...but there is still a very distinct difference between being on axis versus off, regardless of what it's called. Yes, it's slight (not exaggerated, not like the poses, not like Fantasia), but it is still very real.
Hmm, so we've danced... what would you call my close embrace? Very curious to know.
Er...are what supposed to be mutually exclusive?
I have never figured out just what VU is. AFAI-can-tell, it's brand-name V. At least that's how I think about it (kinda like how I think about AT music being Argentine country music).
As far as I can tell from the videos of people who call themselves VU, some use a V, some don't. heh.
Heh. It's hard to say.
Going by feel...milonguero all the way. Going by what you like to lead , it's all over the map.
But I definitely see where you're coming from wrt milonguero and apilado being the same thing. I don't agree, but I definitely see your logic behind it. I can only say that, much like embraces (and I will point out the nitpicky difference that I don't consider the embrace--aka, arm/chest/head position--to be difference between milonguero and apilado), a lot has to do with the way two individual people manage to be comfortable with one another. A guy has got to be a certain height for me to be comfortable with a V--too short and I'm left with my nose jammed into his face. Likewise, a guy can't be too tall for milonguero or else I've got my nose against his shoulder. But it's all a sliding scale, and there are lots of variations, and as many exceptions as you can imagine. Body type, posture, music, local norms...they all come into play.
Thanks, I was just curious.
Yep, I'm not arguing with you. It's definitely a subjective thing when you get to a certain point. And I agree the details change depending on body type and all those other things you mentioned.
Except that it's all just an illusion you know...
Yes. I dance with several leaders who are significantly (ahem) bulkier than I am. Even when I am off balance and totally dependent on them to avoid falling forward, they claim that they don't feel my weight all that much. The extent to which I am sharing my weight with them is far more apparent to me than it is to them because I am aware that I am depending on them for balance. They aren't aware of that, nor are they dependent on me for their balance. The size difference is too extreme (I'm talking about weight, not height... height discrepancies create a whole different set of issues)
(And yeah... I tried to tell Pyg...)
Personally I find it awkward to have an elastic embrace when dancing apilado. Unless the leader is very skilled at feeling just how far off axis I am compared to where he wants me next, it's too hard to go from being off balance to being back on my own balance. If he is not even aware that I am leaning on him, then he won't be prepared to resettle me upright to have the embrace flexible.
Even if he is aware, and wants me leaning on him, he still must take the responsibility for adjusting so that I am on my own axis when he desires that, and that I know it is intentional (since my instinct would be to maintain the current apilado connection by the way I reach unless specifically led otherwise)
I haven't found leaders who do that. I have found leaders who dance close embrace and have a flexible embrace. But they aren't dancing apilado/milonguero.
Typically (IME) a true milonguero embrace doesn't change much. It's also awkward for the follower to move her left arm from being hooked around his neck to opening the embrace. In my mind, that hooked arm is a part of the milonguero style. "Close embrace" is not synonymous with "milonguero".
This is actually something I've been working on refining. It IS possible to put the follower on axis and take her off as needed in close embrace, and at times makes some movements easier. I can't do calecitas any other way. I just have a ridiculously hard time maintaining connection unless I put the follower back on her axis for the duration.
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