Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by Dave Bailey, Jun 6, 2011.
I so wanted to teach a tomada sandwichito.
Well, it's organised, I'll give it that.
But it's a bit weird that it doesn't, hah, define the differences between Milonguero, Salon, and Nuevo... It also seems quite step / move-focussed, although, yes, not so much as the IDTA one.
with paradas and ganchomole on the side as ochos d'œuvre
This reminds me...I haven't made empanadas in quite a while.
Right, so, anyway, I did the sandwich last night.
The entrance and exit are the standard malarkey (backstep-sidestep to start and forward-side-close to finish) - so every move is based around the Basic 8.
In a sense I can understand this; it provides consistency and structure, and (I assume) the theory is that it should provide a set of sequences, all of which of course fit in the standard Tango 8-beat phrase, so all of which provide ways of dancing.
But in the real world, that's rubbish - you don't dance sequences in Tango. So there's no point learning a standard sequence, especially if that sequence starts with a backstep.
That said, the core part of the movement seemed reasonable - back ochos to a parada, into a sandwich, then leading the lady out into a couple of forward ochos. That's pretty much the same way I teach a basic sandwich.
There was also a nice suggestion that the guy could do a ronde (lapiz) with his left foot whilst leading the lady across in the final ocho - which is a nice way to get that foot out of the way.
So, given the constraints of the structure, it worked OK. That said, the sandwich itself involves quite a few concepts - ochos, paradas, adornments, and so on - so it's quite a challenge to teach it in a quick taster class, compared to some of the other movements.
in the real world of dance, there are no sequences.
However, in learning dance, that's all you do! Drills and repetition put the technique into your body, and then on the floor you dance 'through' the technique.
Teaching students, you give them the tools to make a dance. Giving beginners a structure to practice and study is a recognized and accepted way of teaching. Why should Argentine Tango, or any other 'dance' be immune to being codified, analyzed, and made more accessible?
One thought to throw out there - is it possible that AT teaching, in it's present state and format, is not the best way or the fastest way for people to become good? Traditional methods are always superseded by better ones once they are discovered.
Be cautious and a skeptic when told, when asking for an explanation of how, you are told it is all about a feeling that somehow cannot be transmitted thru words or actions.
i'VE never taken the sandwhich seiourlsy as a tango step; its just odd; it breaks the flow of dancing, it can break the embrace, and it looks stupid when most people do it.
becuase they're dancing ; "look at me I can do this fancy step" but the reality is while you are doing your sandwich the woman has to ignore all the stuff your chest is doing, so she is actively not following. as fas as being on a syllabus i think it ought to be under a sub-heading; "You wont see see this being done at any respected milonga in BsAs (but if you pay me enough I'll show you how to do it.)"
Not necessarily. It's a perfectly fine alternative to an ateracion and you can play with it - if I use it, I usually continue traveling in the LOD.
It can but if it's done well it's no worse than a microcolgada. One of the aims is not to break the embrace. There's certainly a sandwich involved in some "pocket" colgada/volcada combinations that I can use (and make as small as I want).
No argument from me, but then many people don't do it right.
Nope. When I'm doing it the woman does not ignore all the stuff my chest is doing. I use it to put her on the back foot (more strongly than on normal steps) and immediately invite her forward. I usually do it sped up so her weight changes are still on the strong beat. It's only good if it's over before anyone realises it was a sandwich.
But there's a great leap between the sandwich I'm doing it in 2011 and the ones I was doing in 1989. I have to give credit to Eric Jeurissen for that, he's the first one that made that penny drop: if you're standing on your back foot and so is the follower, you do look stupid and the embrace is broken. So the solution to that problem is not to do it.
That's not all you do. I've been to plenty of classes where there's no sequences at all.
What's wrong with that structure being "a step"?
I don't believe it is. And I've made exactly that point myself, several times, on this thread alone. That doesn't mean I think that teaching every movement in the context of a number of superfluous other movements is a good idea.
Absolutely agree. Hopefully the pedago- whatsit of teaching will improve greatly over time.
Always good advice
Agreed. I think, however, from reading AT discussions and various Web sites, that there are (at least) two major schools of thought. One is tango being some sort of transcendental experience and life purpose. The other seems to be more pragmatic, i.e. it's a dance.
Pragmatic folks will codify and systematize (syllabus-ize?) while the others will speak (teach?) in more ephemeral terms.
Aside from that, I'd like to know why the 8CB is taught at all if it's a "bad thing"? Why not start just with forward walks? I once danced almost nothing but walks one night at a milonga and was told by an older gentleman from BA that he really liked my tango.
andragogy....mate......pedagogy is teaching children.....
i wouldnt go anywhere near anyone with a conventional teacher training.....
(Refer Pink Floyd's the Wall for the most obvious reasons)...
this is worthy of a Modern Parents sketch.. (in Viz)
Malcolm and Cressida Wright-Pratt are parents whose obsession with ethical and environmental awareness often works against their basic role as parents to Tarquin and Guinevere. The Modern Parents do not believe in childhood activities such as fairgrounds, fast food restaurants, games, competitions and sports, toys, normal holidays or mainstream school and impose their moral positions on their children and the children of others. They take the moral high-ground because of their ideologies and expect everyone to appreciate their actions.
so I have arrived at the same conclusion as Eric Jeurissen.. interesting..
I get the microcolgadas and I will do back crossed sandwiches if I'm dancing milonga
I tend to agree with this. When I first learned it I thought it was the coolest step and that I had become a real tango dancer (after two months of classes). Now I find it generally ridiculous, although I might do a quick one once a year.
It seems to me like a bait and switch step; something you teach to beginners to get them excited. Then you hope they will forget about it asap. Though as mentioned, it can be done (as with any step) with nuance and variety.
Yup. Sometimes it can be really cool if used well. Usually it isn't, and it just ends up silly and overused.
i figured that it was an "Escenario" step that was just easy to teach any ignorant passer by
and belonged in the 8CB school of teaching tango badly...
this was after a year of learning tango and never having seen it taught or danced.
And your point is...?
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