Tango Argentino > Assessing our own ability

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by Dave Bailey, Jun 3, 2009.

  1. hbboogie1

    hbboogie1 New Member

    article from Steve Morall

    Total Rubbish,
    I read the article from Steve Morall about him assesing ones tango in order to enter his Tangk (whatever that is) Academy. I also went to youtube and watched Debbie & Steve Morrall's tango demo in slow motion. My question is how can someone with poor posture poor footwork and poor embrace plus constently looking down at his feet as he dances judge others?
    If I was assessing Steve I would put him between trying real hard but not quite understanding basic tango fundlementals.
  2. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    Out of interest, what the bloody hell are you lot on? Drugs?

    This isn't about a person, it's about a concept.

    Are some of you genuinely incapable of debating the concept, without starting to slag off a person's dancing?
  3. barrefly

    barrefly New Member

    You say you don't understand the concept of Logic as I define it, yet, I offered no definition of Logic. Your dictionarydotcom definition will suffice.

    Logic and truth are as different as your car and Miami, Fl. Logic is a device/technique/means to assist in our understanding of the truth.
  4. barrefly

    barrefly New Member

    Dave Bailey,
    I have shared some of my "concepts" on this forum, but was criticized because "I" don't dance. Therefore,....there may be some weight to your statement...
    However, there may be those whose logic leads them to beleive that a lousy dancer would make a lousy teacher.
    Perhaps I should start to teach tango.
  5. Captain Jep

    Captain Jep New Member

    Dave, I'll return to the thread, even if no one else is going to.

    For me, the more interesting thing is why our head thinks it can pass judgement on our body's ability to learn. I may in fact be a good dancer, but I may also be somebody who struggles to learn physical movements. If I've become a good dancer it could be from years of trial and error, rather than because I'm capable of "learning" quickly.

    Of course , being a capable dancer will give me at least a chance of following the workshop. But what if there are limited places? Wouldnt a "test" have to then assess an individual's ability to learn , rather than just their dancing ability?
  6. Captain Jep

    Captain Jep New Member

    As a friend and admirer of Steve's, I take this personally. I dont know what you think you're basing your judgements on and I dont care. Perhaps you should keep your opinions to yourself.
  7. barrefly

    barrefly New Member

    Captain Jep, I don't think anyone would argue that evaluating ones skills to determine class level/placement isn't sensable. (irregardless of the availability of places in the class).

    What could be argueable would be whether someone is qualified to appraise someone elses skills. Also, whether such an approach is sincere or worthy.
    Just because Mr. X says that I am worthy of joining his super advance platonum level....doesn't say a hill of beans about the class or Mr. X.
    The student should also do some evaluating themselves, about the class and the instructor.

    You have received a taste of how students/parents of students, may evaluate an instructor/class....via some of the responses on this thread.
  8. hbboogie1

    hbboogie1 New Member

    I was expressing my opinion by his performance on you tube.
    Have you seen it? This is a forum and I'm expressing my opinion just like you express yours, nothing personal intended, just an opinion.
    Read my post again....s l o w e r
  9. hbboogie1

    hbboogie1 New Member

    By Steves article it soundes like He is assessing students entering his classes although I must admit it's a little unclear who is actually makeing those judgments. I based my comments on the assumption that he indeed was the one judging.
  10. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Oh, I dunno. Not talking about Steve (whoever he is) at all, just in terms of my own experience...

    There's a guy in our local scene who has, by tango standards and in general, horrible posture. His movement is kind of odd, by tango standards. His embrace is poor, by tango standards. It could be easy to criticize him as not understanding fundamentals, and he has been, by others.

    But he's one of the best leaders I can think to dance with. His embrace feels wonderful. His leads are crystal clear. He's very considerate of his followers, has good floorcraft, is creative...in short, a terrific guy to dance with. He's got a sense of humor about his dancing which is wonderful and rare to find in leaders (at least around here)--both in terms of what he leads, and in his approach to mistakes made by his followers. He's one of the few men I can 100% trust to keep me safe on a crowded floor; I can dance with my eyes closed with him almost 100% of the time.I know he knows the fundamentals, because we've discussed them. He is one of the most sought-after leaders around here.

    So...just because things don't look the way they "should" doesn't mean what's actually going on isn't wonderful, really.

    Just a thought...
  11. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    That's exactly the point I was trying to make yesterday (or whenever). Why should we assume that everything that looks good would feel good, and visa-versa.
  12. hbboogie1

    hbboogie1 New Member

    Peaches, Thank you... I like how you think....you make me think.
    Steve who I've never met watches people dance evaluates and criteques them placing them in a certain group or class.

    Well, that's excatly what I did. I watched his video evaluated and critequed his dancing and placed him in a group or class based on what I saw. And I might add my assesment was very kind.

    So why the uproar?
  13. barrefly

    barrefly New Member

    I get the impression that a few members on this board think my posts, irrelevent, or that I hijack threads.....so I am thinking....one more won't hurt.
    Gooooooo Lakers.
  14. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    Because it's massively off-topic, irrelevant, and, frankly, nasty?

    Want a diagram to go with that?
  15. Captain Jep

    Captain Jep New Member

    Exactly DB.

    I am happy for you to make your comments. But you cant make a comment without making a bitchy aside can you?

    One of the virtues of this being a written medium is that yes, you can edit yourself before you say something. So why not try doing that in future?

    I'm not going to go to the bother of justifying Steve's approach or the quality of his dancing. Certainly not to you, anyway. Who cares at the end of the day who the teacher is? He could be Pablo Veron or Fabian Salas. It's not the teacher we're discussing, it's the student.

    We all talk in AT circles about being humble. But it's still tough as hell when a teacher says "you're not ready"... :rolleyes:
  16. hbboogie1

    hbboogie1 New Member

    Chill out Dave
    another quote from DB:
    So what on Earth do you mean when trying to drag logic-as-truth into this?

    Neither do I get where this is connected to the Johari whatsit, nor do I get why this is relevant to a discussion about Mr and Mrs Morrall's abilities or otherwise.

    Dave it seems you are the one who broached the subject about Morralls abilities. And stop being so rude about other peoples comments when you can't keep track of your own.
  17. Angel HI

    Angel HI Well-Known Member

    OK Guys, I have been just hanging out in the background since yesterday. Let me share with you bits of a PM that I replied to another member.

    "However, perhaps you do not realize how you were coming across. You certainly have no idea how many msgs I and other mods have received regarding your manner and demeanor. The other posters have felt/feel that you are very condescending and crude. Perhaps, you did not intend to be. Perhaps it is just your character. No one knows.

    If you did not intend to come across like that...fine. No real harm done.
    I do not believe tht you are a bad person or some such. I have passed no judgement upon you none-what-so-ever. I have even applauded several of your post (since the PM). Yes, the forum is one for discussion, sharing, learning. No, you do not have to agree with anyone. Yes, we must be respectful of everyone, especially in cyberspace where we lack the luxury of eye contact, and it is easy for thing to become misconstrued."

    This is really quite easy, Guys. Please?
  18. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    No I think I made a mistake and added an extra window (or elephant)

    On Evaluating Steve: I dont have any experience of his Tangks, or workshops but clearly people are getting something out of them. (At my level of experience I have to be confident that a workshop will give me something that I dont already know so I have never been attracted to his events but I do like his bandoneon playing)Your observations of him dancing may have a grain of truth but there are plenty of coaches out there who help sports people who are better than themselves so it is possible that he has this capacity. I have seen him dance socially and I've seen better and worse. The purpose of assessing people for workshops is to ensure even ability and I think thats fair approach. He often has visiting teachers and they will bring their own qualities.
  19. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    I noticed this:
    Yes, I feel the same way.

    I used to dispense advice glibly in the first year or so I was learning, confident that I Knew It All. Now, I'm sometimes almost paralysed... Not so much because I don't know the answer, but usually because I don't know what's the best way to phrase it, you know? i.e. should I make it simple-and-effective (but incomplete) or should I make it detailed-and-difficult (but complete).

    Tango is fractal - you can keep getting deeper and deeper into discussion of almost any area of it. The trick is to provide the information to the student at the correct level, which will be effective at that level, but which will neither develop bad habits, nor preclude further development of such technique. And I think this is just one of those things that takes practice.

    But, the point is, to deliver the right level of information, you need to be aware of the student's ability.
  20. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    I've only had a couple of classes with Pablo Veron. They were fine, but nothing spectacular. About average, for the London classes I've attended, I'd say.

    Oh, and he didn't take the time to assess his students' abilities... ;)

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