Tango Argentino > Assessing our own ability

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by Dave Bailey, Jun 3, 2009.

  1. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    Did I? :confused:

    I don't believe so - looking at this thread, this whole Morall side-show was started by barrefly here:
    I don't want to talk about individuals, I want to discuss concepts. As I've said, many many times on this thread already.

    I'm not the one who sought out YouTube videos, then made snarky comments about them.

    If you can find out the post where I broached the topic of the Morrall's abilities, then I'll apologise. I may even do it properly. But I've been through this thread, and I don't believe I did start that discussion.

    If, on the other hand, you've made a mistake, then I'd expect the same from you.

    Over to you...
  2. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    Well... I think you can visually make judgements - to a point.

    But I suspect most people's visual judgements are based on the wrong criteria - for example, most people pay attention to the steps, not the quality of the movements.

    I remember watching a Jordan and Tatiana (WCS) video a few years ago, and what impressed me most was not the choreographed moves, it was the quality of the dancing and the connection between these moves.
  3. Heather2007

    Heather2007 New Member

    CJ: if one were to slag me off I wouldn't expect any friend of mine to take it personally, for the slagging-off incident was directed at me personally and not them. The Sixth Degrees of Separation (if it is true) reality means that the world is much smaller than how we perceive it and we all know somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody but still, that should not affect our democratic right to have an opinion, regardless of who they are.
  4. Captain Jep

    Captain Jep New Member

    OK, the teacher was God. Now go and criticise him. Dare ya... :p
  5. Captain Jep

    Captain Jep New Member

    If Steve was here, I'd leave him to defend himself. As he isnt, Im standing up for him. And I'd do the same for you if you were the one being criticised.

    Anyone can have an opinion. But that doesnt give them a right to make that opinion a snarky one. Especially since the thread had nothing to do with Steve's abilities as a dancer in the first place.

    Angel's made his point. What's so hard about dropping the subject?
  6. Angel HI

    Angel HI Well-Known Member

    I haven't been saying much for a few days for several reasons, but the probleme with opinions is that once they are spoken they are no longer opinions, they are facts...true or not. And, especially on this forum, we need to care for the rights/feelings of our family members. It doesn't take much effort to share an 'opinion' in a non-degrading/belittling/ or as has been recently, plain insulting manner.
  7. Heather2007

    Heather2007 New Member

    Exactly. And you know what Peaches, it is this type of pre-judging of others and how they "look" that has forced one of the contenders in a reality show we have over here (Britain's Got Talent) into a mental institution. The moment this middle-aged, overweight woman who wasn't blessed with the looks of Angelina Jolie walked onto the stage there were scornful smirks from members of the audience as well as the judges. She opened her mouth and the smirks were replaced with surprise. She sang beautifully. People simply could not link the voice with the face. And as you say, despite the poor posture, the dancer is a wonderful dancer.
  8. hbboogie1

    hbboogie1 New Member

    This was the thread you started post #1
    You posted the link that took me to Steve's web site that took me to his demo on youtube that moved me to post a comment on what I saw.
    People make judgments by what they see. At milonga's we judge who we want to dance with usually by what we see. Many people on this site have said they check out visiting teachers on youtube to asses them to see if it's worth taking their class. The Tangk Academy judges dancers by what they see. I'm like most people I judge dancers by what I see and I form my opinion. I believe my opinion is right because it's mine however there are exceptions to the rule...and I'll be the first to admit that my opinion can be dead wrong after all I am human aren't we all ?
  9. Captain Jep

    Captain Jep New Member

    But what hbboogie1 would make you admit your opinion is "wrong"? What do you want? A statistically verifiable survey of Steve's dancing? Or shall we ask him to post a video on Youtube so that you can pronounce a more "considered" opinion?

    If I really have to defend Steve, I will. Though frankly I am getting bored with the direction this thread is going.
  10. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    Yes, I did.

    But, and perhaps I'm being dumb, I'm still missing the part where a post, discussing a concept I read about in an article, translates into this:
    Are you seriously suggesting that every comment we read on a website means that we're talking about the dancing ability of the person who wrote that comment?

    Please clarify.
  11. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    there's more to life than this...

    l"et's sneak out of this party
    it's getting boring
    there's more to life than this
    it's still early morning
    we could go down to the harbour
    and jump between the boats
    and see the sun come up"

  12. Heather2007

    Heather2007 New Member

    I like that. Can I steal it and claim it as my own?:rolleyes:
  13. Heather2007

    Heather2007 New Member

    No, Angel. The real problem with opinions is not being allowed one (As governments both past and present around the world have proved). The second problem is not realising that it is just the opinion of another and therefore should have no detrimental bearing on our emotional or physical well-being. [dchester summed it up really nicely...does it really matter?]
  14. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    I agree that you can make visual judgements, and I do it as well. My point is that visual judgements are about how something looks, not necessarily about how something feels. Example: posture that looks bad, might feel very good to the follower.

    Some people are more into the "connection" (or the feel) than they are into the looks (or the steps). Of course I'm over simplifying this (because a lot of people are concerned with both the looks and the feel). But my observation is that some people are mostly concerned with the feel, and couldn't care less about how it looks.

    Obviously, performers are mostly concerned with how it looks. The steps may be precise, and spectacular, the "connection" may "look" to be intense, but we really have no way of knowing what they actually are feeling. We certainly can say it looks great though.
  15. Captain Jep

    Captain Jep New Member

    Of course opinions really matter. If I slagged you off on this forum , saying your screen plays are "derivative" and "full of jargon", you wouldnt be best pleased, would you? Even though my opinions might not make a difference right here and now, you would a) feel hurt and b) worry that one of us might be in the industry and might spread that view.

    When we critique tango videos on this forum, we say "I dont like this" or "I dont like that" . That's fair enough. But we dont say "why do these guys think they're good enough to perform at that festival?" or "I'd never take a lesson from those guys in a million years".

    As far as Im concerned , criticising Steve's teaching videos is criticising him as a teacher. He is not a performer. If he posts videos, it is either a) as notes off his teaching lessons or b) to show what happens in his workshops. They are not performance videos.

    Steve is an excellent teacher and social dancer. Of course you're free not to believe me (I'm sure you wont), but if I can ever dance with as much musicality as he dances with, I would be a very happy guy.
  16. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    I would like to respectfully disagree with your opinion. It is my opinion, that most everything posted here is an opinion, whether the poster thinks it's a fact or not. I don't think that changes after they are posted.

    Agreed. The problem that we run into, is that we "artsy" people tend to have very strong opinions, and don't always realize that our "facts" are really just opinions. You combine this with the internet style of communication (where stuff can come across more rudely than what might be intended), things can easily escalate.

    Sometimes we just have to take more care in making our posts then it might seem necessary, to keep the peace. Also, it takes a bit of a thick skin to post on internet forums. Trust me, I've posted on lots of them, and this one is about as tame as they get.
  17. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    I don't know about other forums, and I don't much care to. I like the peaceful and respectful attitude around here. Nothing wrong with artsy (or non-artsy...there's a lot of engineering types here around D-F) people and strong opinions. As my mother repeated countless times to my brother and me, "it's not what you say, it's how you say it."

    Personally, I know I've got to be careful to keep my temper in check, to keep my sarcasm in check unless I can make it blatantly clear that it's not malicious and is lightearted teasing, make sure to apologize readily and always give the benefit of the doubt...and to discard my first two, or possibly three, responses and go with the more rational one that comes after. ;)

    I've still managed to get myself into trouble from time to time, but I think that's on the decline.
  18. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    I've probably stepped into it as much as anyone (and I majored in computer science and minored in math, but there's no denying that I have an artsy side as well).
  19. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

  20. hbboogie1

    hbboogie1 New Member

    Okay this is my last opinion on the subject.
    It’s my belief that an opinion is formed when we view something that might cause a judgment or estimation to be made effecting our outlook and attitude.

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