Tango Argentino > Ballroom style

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by Shaka, Mar 22, 2011.

  1. Shaka

    Shaka New Member

    Hum there's a lot of confusion about what ballroom (dancesport) is and how it compares to other social dances (including social ballroom).

    So dancesport is very unique as it was created for art and competitions. At almost every time, dance partners have to look beautiful. Whenever you take a shot, it has to be art.

    In addition, judges won't look at the whole dance; they will actually have flashes. Would you break the frame just one time and there is high possibility that the judge see the bad picture.

    And this is sport. It's absolutely not about you feeling comfortable with your partner while dancing. It's intended to the audience who look at you. You have to suffer to look good.

    It is very difficult to maintain the frame. So when you say that the kids are doing wrong because of their shoulders, you should look at AT dancers more carefully. In fact, all pure AT dancers, including teachers and performers, break the frame at a much much higher rate. May you take some shots and you would see how disgraceful they do with their shoulders and the alignment of their body. You have to see the dance in action to not see the imperfections. With the exception of cortés, colgadas and some advanced figures, you won't see much pictures of AT. Wonder why? Because they just don't look good with basic figures. On the opposite side, you will see lots and lots of ballroom pictures.

    And to answer to those who say that the kids are cheating with their choregraphy, I would tell them that I dance like them in social events. It's very possible to look good when not performing a predetermined choregraphy, may you care about the posture and the frame. Guess about what people are talking at the bar? About the guy who have strong posture.
     
  2. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    There might be some thruth in it. But therefore you only have those transcendent faces in pictures of argentine tango. On the other hand, ballroom faces are somehow grotesque..

    [​IMG]


    http://www.dance-forums.com/album/photos/photo-3524.html
     
  3. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    Isn't it you that's confused?
    This isn't the Dancesport Forum nor Ballroom but Argentine Tango.

    This is all irrelevant (well it is to me).
    Maybe so, which makes it a sort of performance tango for entertainment,
    which excludes it from being AT. You're still in the wrong forum.

    Frame has nothing to do with it, that's a ballroom concept.
    Social AT isn't danced for audience appreciation
    but for the mutual appreciation of the partners.
    I wouldn't want to be dancing at the same events as you then.

    As for posture, we've written at length about its importance, here and
    elsewhere. It's form following function - what's needed to make AT
    work best in the embrace. Posture though is widely variable but some
    still seem to be appreciated for their connection regardless. In other
    words they make it work, it's the results that count.


    I think I should have ignored this post but this is written now.
     
  4. Subliminal

    Subliminal Well-Known Member

    Yep, I think we got trolled by the OP.

    Just another day on DF.
     
  5. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    I don't understand this discussion of having the syllabus perfectly describe everything in writing in order for a student to learn the material through reading and applying the syllabus.

    You can't learn Organic Chemistry from the course syllabus either. Or any other subject, regardless of how well the material can be written.

    A syllabus is just a list of what's to be covered in the course, in what order, so a student can be aware of whether they are reaching milestones and benchmarks expected by the teacher through the progression of the course.

    An AT syllabus only needs to say that you are going to cover the embrace and posture... it doesn't need to describe it.

    The difference is that "testing" in AT is done on an individual basis through a demonstration of skills aquired rather than by written or oral exam.
     
  6. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    "I'm shocked, shocked that cliquishness is going on here..."
    (Sir, that amazing follower over there sent you this note to dance with you)
    "Oh, Thank you. "
    quickly pockets note and hurries over to follower.
     
  7. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Ah... missed this. You already made the point. (and perhaps someone earlier did too)
     
  8. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    And that sums up why it isn't Argentine Tango.
     
  9. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    ditto
     
  10. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    Errr, OK....

    Firstly, "frame" as a concept is not really relevant to AT, so that's quite believable.

    Possibly. All I can do is comment on what I see, and in that video it's painfully obvious that their basics are plainly wrong. Not just "poor", but "wrong". And that's not something I'd say about the standard AT performance.

    I disagree, but I think that's simply a question of taste.
     
  11. Subliminal

    Subliminal Well-Known Member

    It's like a scab you just have to pick at... ok one more post.

    Dancesport doesn't have the market on projecting and showing off the human form. Look at any good ballet, modern dance, caberet, etc. Heck even stage actors study how to project to an audience. Comparing social AT or even teachers showing off on youtube is hardly a fair comparison. Fantasia dancers on the other hand do learn to project. They learn how to orient themselves such that their best side is to the audience and how to show off their lines. But what they do still manages to look like tango, because it has its own unique technique and look.

    The first performance in this thread is ballroom showdance, not tango showdance. Period.
     
  12. Larinda McRaven

    Larinda McRaven Site Moderator Staff Member

    yes and no... they have been active in other threads... maybe just scared off by the turn of events here or perhaps the intent was to stir the pot. But they usually interact well in other discussions.
     
  13. Larinda McRaven

    Larinda McRaven Site Moderator Staff Member

    exactly
     
  14. Larinda McRaven

    Larinda McRaven Site Moderator Staff Member

    This explains a lot of miscommunication for me here then. In ballroom "syllabus" is used to describe not only the step list but the book and chart forms. Instead of just a class outline of subjects to cover...
     
  15. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    But it doesn't replace instruction though does it? Don't you still need the actual course as well as the syllabus? Does the ballroom syllabus provide enough information that one can apply what is in it on their own without having a teacher and still become a good ballroom dancer?
     
  16. Larinda McRaven

    Larinda McRaven Site Moderator Staff Member

    I think I pretty much made that point already. We use the syllabus as a tool. It does not replace teaching, precisely because it is an incomplete approximation or a skeleton of the description of what is going on.
     
  17. nottomention

    nottomention New Member

    This is only true if you are impatient and wish to try to imitate the look of good dancing, without taking time to first learn how to dance well. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people in ballroom competitions who are that impatient. But please don't mistake what they resort to in their inexperience, with how it feels when done properly.
     
  18. nottomention

    nottomention New Member

    At a more advanced level no longer constrained by school figures, ballroom is lead step by step rather than figure by figure. Ballroom tango especially - it does not have the same kind of continuity of movement as the waltz, foxtrot, and quickstep, so almost any step can alter direction. And even in the momentum dances, an intention to move in a given direction can still evolve in flight to a very different conclusion than was in mind when it was begun.
     
  19. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    I agree, but we should only whisper such things here. It just sounds too much like another dance, and you will upset the locals... ;)
     
  20. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    Good grief, no.

    There seems to be a slight difference in usage of the terminology between US & UK too. Here, the syllabus is just a schedule summarising the content of the amateur tests and the professional exams. The actual content is to be found in the technique manuals, substantial volumes, crammed with content in a highly abbreviated form that most amateur dancers would not be able to use, effectively, without professional assistance either.

    Teaching societies differ in their approaches. The ISTD still have schedules of standardised figures that are expected in the amateur tests at Bronze, Silver & Gold (& beyond), whereas the IDTA doesn't specify any particular figures, but sets its levels by reference to the attainment of particular technique goals (eg the usage of correct footwork, timing, style & musicality). Traditionally, there was an equivalence of syllabus figures between amateur bronze & professional associate, amateur silver & professional licentiate and amateur gold & professional fellowship (not in standard, or course, just in scope of the syllabus).

    Amateur tests (medal tests) are available in AT too, but I can't imagine the uptake is very high. I don't know what the syllabus requirements are in the ISTD tests, but the IDTA ones do not prescribe any figures, although the syllabus 'suggests' figures (to be found described in detail in the accompanying technique manual) that might be appropriate to each level, and on the DVD that accompanies the technique manual, there are demonstration dances at each level, presenting a model 'routine' (anathema - I know) at each level.




    There is an IDTA Tango Teacher's Diploma, too, which takes all of the figures from the suggested bronze group and three from the silver group. If anyone is interested, those figures are named as follows:
    1. The Basic Step (8CB)
    2. Front Eights
    3. Back Eights
    4. Cross Basic (8CB in cross system)
    5. Change of Direction
    6. Sandwich
    7. Rock Turn
    8. Cross Body Basic
    9. Displacement from Front Eight
    10. Cross Basic with Displacement
    11. Sweep
    12. Half Moon (Media Luna)
    FWIW, if the young couple's pastiche tango was being presented not as a show dance but as an amateur test at gold standard, I have no doubt that it would be marked at 90%+, and therefore receive the highest award: Honours.
    The medal test system is about making money for dance schools, mainly, and while lots of people think that gold is some sort of high standard, it really isn't at all. The IDTA BR test series has 24 levels, of which B/S/G are but 1 2 & 3. If you hold the International Supreme Certificate (24), you have spent a lot of money, but can probably dance rather well.
     

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