Tango Argentino > Been Diss'ed?

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by AndaBien, Mar 24, 2013.

  1. Oliver

    Oliver Member

    Then you're using a different definition of "piropos" then pretty much everyone else in Argentina.

    The Mayor of Buenos Aires in 2014, discussing street harassment: "A todas las mujeres les gustan los piropos, aunque les digan que lindo culo tenes" (All women like compliments, even if you tell them 'what a nice a** you have'). So, according to the Mayor of Buenos Aires, a catcall is a piropo. According to you, it's not.

    There is definitely a link between piropos and street violence. Of the 100% of Buenos Aires women who had been the victim of piropos, 59% experienced vulgar language or gestures, 47% were followed, 37% were exposed to the catcaller's genitalia.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2017
  2. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    Since they were victims, it means it escalated to something else. There have also been a lot of cases when asking time or directions on the street escalated to assault and robbery.
     
  3. Oliver

    Oliver Member

    They were victims of street harassment. Piropos is a euphemism for street harassment.
     
  4. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    If piropos and acosto callejero is considered the exact same thing nowadays, then I rest my case. :)
     
  5. Oliver

    Oliver Member

    It is by about 72% of Argentinian women.
     
  6. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    From what I understand nowadays it has come to a point when somebody talking to you (or at you) on the street has a high probability of escalating to danger/violence. Does not really matter if they say "you are as beautiful as this summer day" or ask for time/direction. But since, of course, women are more vulnerable no wonder they feel more threatened when men talk at them on the street.
    It is sad, but it is a reality we now have to deal with.
     
  7. Oliver

    Oliver Member

    According to the Hollaback study by Cornell University, 15% of Argentinian were under 10 when they were first harassed, 41% were 11-12, and 26% were 13-14. This has been going on for a while.
     
  8. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    Let's see if a new ordinance makes the streets of the capital any safer.
     
  9. sixela

    sixela Well-Known Member

    I'm not exactly conceding my point (and nor are the few porteños and porteñas I just asked).

    I made my definitions clear, and you're just making a circular argument and dissing whoever does not want to adhere to your narrative (which, by the way, you dragged out of the milonga floor into the streets, and we're all supposed to follow you).

    As for the study, you're casting an even wider net than the La Nacion article did, and the claims that the primary source are making are cast in much more neutral language. Yes, catcalling is a problem, and for lack of a better word "piropo" is also used for this. But not all piropos are catcalling (which is why I would not use that word at all -- it's inaccurate since it's ambiguous), and not all piropos are the kind of language that 72% of women said they were objecting to.

    Catcalling on the street (by strangers) has little in common with practices on the milonga floor (if you want to take a cynical view, if only for reasons of efficacy -- after all, you're not likely to get your cabeceos accepted in future if you're vulgar and threatening).
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2017
    Lilly_of_the_valley likes this.
  10. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    I agree with Lily and sixela. I may have posted this before, but this is from my early / mid 2000s harvest of vocabulary from various sources.

    Piropo a flirtation; once common in Buenos Aries. A sentence comical and poetic (that does not offend the recipient), that men tell women when they go by in the street.
     
    Lilly_of_the_valley likes this.
  11. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    In addition, a passer by recipient may not find it flattering or amusing, she may even think it is inappropriate or annoying, but it is not aggressive or dangerous per se. She ignores it and goes by, nothing at all happens.
     
  12. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    I did a quick search and found one book that talked about antipiropos, a term that did not catch on. Most "older" books I saw agree with the definition I just posted, more or less.
     
    Lilly_of_the_valley likes this.
  13. itwillhappen

    itwillhappen Active Member

    I vote for consistency. Accepted comments at BsAs milongas should be accepted at local milongas, too. And I vote for a gender balance. Graceful comments about a male butt should be possible, too.

    And someone should explain the first to my SO, so that I don't get into trouble.
     
  14. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    I know this was tongue in cheek, but everybody decides what is acceptable to him/her (and if they are in a steady couple, what is acceptable for them as a couple). Then everyone who wants to be on good terms with him/her (or a couple) respects that.
    What is acceptable or not has to be somehow consistent with the mores of the group you are (or striving to be) part of. If your personal boundaries are very exotic for a given social group, you won't be on good terms with the said group. It works that way everywhere.
     
  15. Oliver

    Oliver Member

    That's absolutely false. There have been at least 10 comments about street harassment before mine, all the way back to 2013. The first post in this thread on the topic (March 29, 2013) was about a person complaining about receiving vile street harassment.

    These arguments invariably go the same every time I see it. Someone mentions being harassed. Then someone says something invalidating/minimizing, and tries to talk about "compliments" that aren't harassment. Then someone chimes in that they don't mind compliments and don't see what the big deal is. Meanwhile, women are protesting in the streets, complaining online, and telling their friends who will listen that it kind of sucks that they have to alter their lives around avoiding unwanted sexual advances.

    My women friends tell me about lots of unwanted sexual advances of the vulgar variety at milongas. It would have to get pretty outrageous for many of them to do more than just vent quietly to trusted people, because often the response is of the ignorant, invalidating variety. And the recipient is just as interested in getting cabeceo'd in the future, and not making a fuss. So men get away with a lot of sexual harassment and inappropriate physical contact at milongas.

    Now, you can disagree and have your own opinion. I'm not going to shout you down. But I am as free as you to express my opinion on the subject:

    Sexual harassment is a big problem on the streets, in the milongas, at work and in pretty much any other co-ed public or social situation where it is permitted to exist. And it exists along a continuum of consent violations, from minor and relatively benign ones such as unwanted attention and compliments, to all out assault. The problem is that women have to put up with them, alter their clothing choice, alter their routes, or risk escalation. And constantly be second guessed and invalidated when they express themselves.

    Pop culture has peddled a big myth about piropos. That it was innocent and cheesy compliments that women like. It's a myth, it's a lie. There's no survey ever that has said that most women like it.

    You gotta ask: why are people so insistent to keep bringing up "innocent, harmless compliments" when the original post on the topic was about unequivocal sexual harassment?
     
    TomTango likes this.
  16. itwillhappen

    itwillhappen Active Member

    Of course, but ...

    At a milonga it seems to be quite easy. I think a tanguera who likes the way it goes in BsAs and dances nipple to nipple with me will enjoy my comments about her georgeous boobs. And if not - she is not forced to dance with me anyhow, there are mirada/cabeceo in place and she can simply look down to the floor. Okay, may be I'll continue whispering and laughing a bit with my frieds. But if she decides to stay at my location I'll suspect she enjoys it clandestine or want's to be consistent with the mores of our group. I'm only concerned that my girlfriend will not understand that I obviously get entrapped - loving her so much!

    But in the streets is it quite difficult to get a proper approval and misunderstandings may occur. Pascal mentioned the case af an exaggerating lady that attacked decent electric workers with pepper spray like criminals, just because they got attracted and tried to accompany her a few steps:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/12/argentina-street-harassment-ban_n_7570564.html
     
  17. newbie

    newbie Well-Known Member

    How is it the subforums of the other dances are cleaned from the viet-looking spam, while we're still soiled?
     
  18. itwillhappen

    itwillhappen Active Member

    Who please? Oliver!
     
  19. c955

    c955 New Member

    Seriously?! :eek:

    I'll apologise profusely if what you've said or the intention behind it has sailed several miles above my head, but I can't imagine a single, solitary one of my dance partners (ladies) who'd appreciate such a 'compliment' because they danced in sustained close embrace...:beye:
     
  20. itwillhappen

    itwillhappen Active Member

    Okayokay c955, I'll consult my dear SO about proper behaviour before we attend the next milonga. :sorry:
     
    Mladenac likes this.

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