Ballroom Dance > Buying a tailsuit

Discussion in 'Ballroom Dance' started by ACtenDance, Jul 23, 2004.

  1. etchuck

    etchuck New Member

    If it's under "fair use" then it's probably okay. I'd have to see what the specific copyright code is, but it's what governs why some teachers got into trouble for their "coursepack" spiral-bound books in the mid-1990's. Obviously if you're not intending to profit somehow from the information...
  2. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    You won't find "fair use" defined in statute, only in interpretations and precedent, and then only loosely.
  3. etchuck

    etchuck New Member

    True... the wonderful ambiguities of copyright law. But I'm also sure that if there's no money in it, there's more likelihood that a copyright expires and everything else becomes public domain. Otherwise, the Mozart family ought to be financially covered. ;)
  4. Warren J. Dew

    Warren J. Dew Well-Known Member

    Actually anything that's a violation when you profit from it is normally a violation if you don't profit from it; in either case, you're misappropriating the intellectual property in the eyes of the law. It's like taking a book from a bookstore without paying - it's still theft even if you then give the book away rather than selling it. From a practical standpoint, it's true that you're more vulnerable if you profit from it, but that's mostly because it makes it easier to prove damages.
  5. tasche

    tasche New Member

    I was under the impression that a copyright on a book expires after 50 years. There is a sewing website online that publishes out of copyright/print books
  6. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    To expand on what Warren said, neither profit potential nor even the possibility that a work has been abandoned by its owners has any bearing on the expiration of its copyright. I think the only area where abandonment was an issue was with soviet and similar works that weren't elgible for copyright until a recent treaty - there the owners had to publish some notification and warning before they could enforce their new rights over works that were formerly public domain in the US (big issue WRT to music of 20th century russian composers)
  7. tasche

    tasche New Member

    I believe the book in question may fall under this provision.

    Certain works copyrighted in 1923 or later may already have entered the public domain. In particular, works published in the US before 1989 without proper copyright notice, and works published in the US before 1964 whose copyrights were not renewed, may have entered the public domain.
  8. DancingMommy

    DancingMommy Active Member

    To sum up:

    In the United States, the following rules apply:

    Anything copyrighted prior to 1923 is in the public domain. (Practically speaking, this includes anything published prior to 1923, since publication without copyright put the work straight into the public domain. But note this possible exception in some western states for some 1909-1922 foreign works that were not published in the US before 1923.) Due to a 20-year copyright extension enacted in the US in 1998, copyrights from 1923 or later that are still in force will stay in effect through 2018 or longer.
    Certain works copyrighted in 1923 or later may already have entered the public domain. In particular, works published in the US before 1989 without proper copyright notice, and works published in the US before 1964 whose copyrights were not renewed, may have entered the public domain. However, works from 1923 or later that were originally published in countries outside the US may still be copyrighted regardless of whether they were printed with proper notice or renewed. To research whether a book's copyright has been renewed, or needed to be renewed, see this article.
    Works never published prior to 2003 (and never registered for copyright prior to 1978) are now in the public domain in the US if they are by authors who died more than 70 years before the most recent New Year's day. (For 2004, this means authors who died before 1934.) Although this new rule does not put any previously published material into the public domain, it may allow some long-lost manuscripts and collections of letters to be published online as "new" online books.

    **Oddly enough - when searching the LOC website, my supe special book about dancing is not listed.... I may have to do some extra research and get it reprinted.....**
  9. tasche

    tasche New Member

    If I can find this darn book I seem to remember it not having any copyright notice in it at all and I'm guessing its from the 30's by the illustrations. Its definately pre-war
  10. DancingMommy

    DancingMommy Active Member

    Then it is most likely in the public domain.
  11. tasche

    tasche New Member

    Ok I found the book. it has NO copyright date which leads me to believe ( and from the illustrations that it is pre 1923)

    It has drafting instructions for dress tail for several different figure types as well as tuxedo shirts and the dress vest ( backless and not backless) as well as trousers etc. With a little bit of thoughtful alterations during the fitting process I believe one could sucessfuly recreate a set of dance tails.

    Once I double check the copyright issue I will start to scan a few pages to put together a section for making your own dance tails patterns

    The books title is "the Modern Mitchell System of Men's Designing" By Frank C Doblin
  12. tasche

    tasche New Member

    Ok I've discovered there are several recent revisions o this book by the orginal publishing company one in 1984 and one in 1994. How does this affect this book I have.

    The imprination on the cover plate is copyright by xxxxx and no date

    I'm now starting to wonder if they copy I have may be a reprint since it IS in VERY good condition. But why no copyright date? Unless they reprinted it bc it was in the public domain

    Sigh I've googled enough for one night
  13. ACtenDance

    ACtenDance Active Member

    So my coach, who is of similar build, has a tailsuit that he's willing to sell me. He's only worn it once and is asking $600.

    Does anyone have advice on how I should make sure it has the proper fit for me? I've been told by some people that you should have a difficult time taking the coat off by yourself and that it should fit snuggly around the ribs (as in almost to the point of not being able to fit your hand b/t the coat and your body). Is that true? Any other guidelines?
  14. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    That's high for a used suit, but if it's barely used and fits well...

    I don't think it should be hard to put on and off, but the way some people do this with social jackets won't work with dance tails - you may have to learn a different procedure. Of course this is now second nature so I hardly remember the change (just like my fingers would rather tie a bow tie than a long tie now)

    I think in general the best thing to do would be to try the suit on and have someone who knows how they should look evaluate the fit... ideally someone other than the person selling it to you, though if you trust them to do what is best for you, then that should be okay.
  15. Warren J. Dew

    Warren J. Dew Well-Known Member

    Ask to try it on. You may need to button or pin the jacket to the pants somewhere; ask the seller about this. Take dance position by yourself and look at yourself in a mirror, see if it looks good; make sure the shoulders of the jacket don't ride up (at least not any more than your actual shoulders). Dance a few figures in it, with or without a partner, and see if it feels good; make sure you can get your arms to where they should be without forcing things.

    The arm holes will be smaller than in a normal jacket, which can make them more difficult to put on or take off, and will probably cause them to bind a bit under the armpits when you drop your arms to your sides. However, this will be true for any dance tailsuit, whether or not it fits, so that isn't a good way to tell if it fits.

    I like a little more freedom between the chest and lapels, enough to get one's fingers in between the front of the coat and the body, if not one's whole hand. It shouldn't be loose, though.

    Other advice - sleeves and cuffs can easily be shortened, so if they're too long, don't worry about it. They can also be lengthened if there's enough material - if you need lengthening, check that there's enough material to allow the lengthening plus a good seam allowance of maybe an inch or so.
  16. Joe

    Joe Well-Known Member

    He doesn't say who made the suit, but $600 isn't high for a used Ashmore or Gunn. And if it's only been worn once, it's a friggin' steal no matter who made it, as long as it's a known name.
  17. pygmalion

    pygmalion Well-Known Member

    Okay. So what are the recommended "known names" for tailsuits, on either side of the Atlantic.
  18. Joe

    Joe Well-Known Member

    Arthur Ashmore (east)
    Ron Gunn (east)
    Tony Brackley (east)
    Onik (west)
  19. Porfirio Landeros

    Porfirio Landeros New Member

    Not sure if anyone is still looking for a tailsuit, but now that nationals is over, I'm looking to do some costuming changes, so I'm selling my Onik designed 3 piece, 2 cosutme set (1 tailsuit and 1 vest suit).


    Just PM me or visit if you're interested.

  20. pygmalion

    pygmalion Well-Known Member

    Wow. Very nice. 8)

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