Swing Discussion Boards > Ceroc Teaching

Discussion in 'Swing Discussion Boards' started by Dancelf, Mar 9, 2009.

  1. Albanaich

    Albanaich New Member

    That's the USA. WCS and Lindy are taught in a much more improvisational style in the UK.

    Locally WCS and Lindy beginner sare taught using the 'Ceroc' method for beginners and a more 'Tango Practica' style for the more advanced classes.
  2. kayak

    kayak Active Member

    I guess I don't understand what your asking? A one dance dedicated class series that goes 3-5 months is naturally going to be able to teach much more refined technique and skills than any instructor can teach in 1/2 hour rotating class right?
  3. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    A bit more on foot prints...
    I had this bookmarked becuase this is the kind of music/environment that Lauré Haile worked in / promoted when she defined "Western Swing" NKA West Coast Swing.
    (Yes, it "talks about" foot prints.)
  4. Albanaich

    Albanaich New Member

    My experience - and it is my experience, not anyone else's, is that the important skills to be learned are general skills, not specific techique's confined to a specific dance form.

    Again, my experience is that trained contemporary or ballet dancers pick up any dance form quickly because they have the basic skills.

    If I had it all to do again I would start with contemporary dance - not a specific, techique defined form.
  5. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    Of course... but in that interim period during a social , what do you do sit ???... Ballroom is more integrated than salsa or T/Arg., altho there still are comparisons to be made.. the technique of motion in the " swing " dances, and the triple rhythms , transpose quite easily to other dances within the B/room genre .

    You also need to consider that in todays marketplace, expediency ,NOT efficiency, is the order of the day.

    Even if I,m teaching a Medal class course, the dances are rotated week to week.
    Ive never , in all my yrs, known a school who did not introduce new dances on a rotating basis, The only other option is , if one had the luxury of 5 teachers doing one dance each per week.. small operations do not have that luxury .
  6. Angel HI

    Angel HI Well-Known Member

    Explain? :confused:

    Hmmm. It has been my overall experience that this is extremely relative. More often than not, jazz dancers take to BR well; whereas ballet dancers have usually made for some of my worst students (for many reasons...I'll discuss later, if need be).
    :confused: Seemingly an odd comment since ballet is one of the most technique specific arts that I've ever encountered.
  7. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    You need to consider the "time" period in which that was written.

    The amer. style teacher had not had not been introduced to the Intern. style system, by and large, and had adopted a system of nomenclature that suited the moment .
    In addition, she possibly coined the saying from A.Ms. first mailing in the 20s ( Footprints, literally on paper )
  8. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    My experience as well.. the posture, is also a major re adjustment problem, particularly in Latin and Rhythm dances
  9. Albanaich

    Albanaich New Member

    I can see why you might have considerable problems getting someone to readjust - but you are dealing with someone who has balance, timing, agility and co-ordination to start off with. . . . .

    They already have the ability 'to do things' they just don't know how to do it.

    I can't see why anyone would prefer to teach someone who falls over when you spin them to someone who doesn't.
  10. Albanaich

    Albanaich New Member

    I can see why you might have considerable problems getting someone to readjust - but you are dealing with someone who has balance, timing, agility and co-ordination to start off with. . . . .

    They already have the ability 'to do things' they just don't know how to do it.

    I can't see why anyone would prefer to teach someone who falls over when you spin them to someone who doesn't.

    As for ballroom teachers - the one's I've encountered, even highly respected ones, seem more or less oblivous to the abilities of thier students. It's about the drills, not the dancing. They never ask the obvious questions.

    When I started Lindy the first couple of classes I was completely hopeless, even though I knew the timing, (from WCS) had the co-ordination and had a clear picture of what it was all about. The girl who was teaching me (who had obviously been watching) then said something like 'come here, dance with me' - followed by, 'you know this, teaching you steps is messing things up'

    Ever remember that moment in Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid where the guys asks Sundance to hit a target and he misses every shot? Sundance then asks 'Can I move'? It was something like that. I never seem to have got to that stage in Ballroom - even with a significant number of classes.
  11. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    What is significant # ?.... and, you seem to have encountered some teachers who are lacking in communication skills . If you ever get back down here.. come to my class ( Free )
  12. Albanaich

    Albanaich New Member

    I did ballroom for about a year, at the national dance school in Scotland and with another teacher who was an international judge. . . . .the folks I was learning with were not amateurs, and they were very effective at what they did, it just didn't work for me.

    My experience with Tango and Swing has been quite the opposite in the sense that they picked up 'how' I needed to learn rather than 'what' I needed to learn.
  13. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    That is what I expected... they are probably not conversant with the social standard that I use.. you were apparently taught in a medal test structure... mine couldnt be farther from that concept .
  14. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    For "move" I meant "sequence of steps" - there are very few such sequences in AT, whereas there are literally hundreds in Ceroc.

    Sequences in AT are almost exclusively taught simply to illustrate how a particular step can be used. Or at least, that's how they should be taught. Errr, I think...

    Off the top of my head, the only common sequences in AT I can think of are:
    - Giros
    - Basic 8 (which seems to have gone out of fashion recently)
    - The sidestep-into-ocho starting point
    - The ocho cortado sequence (the "step forward left -> step forward right -> rockstep forward lefts -> step back right -> ocho cortado to right" sequence)

    But possibly this discussion is best in the AT section...
  15. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    Dave.. there are over 20 groups that Paul suggests, and I,m sure those could be extrapolated . I would also venture that A.H. could add to that
  16. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    Sure, there are thousands of possibles - I'm just saying those are the only ones I've encountered with any frequency with different teachers.
  17. Flat Shoes

    Flat Shoes New Member

    I think that in most dances that does not have a fixed syllabus, it is possible to break down the patterns into smaller units, and recombine them freely.

    In Argentine Tango there are a set of techniques, certain ways of moving the body, and these can be combined more or less freely to create the dance.

    If we compare this to Lindy Hop, Lindy would seem to be much more pattern centric. At least on the surface.

    But I think this comes from Lindy dancing is more following the beat of the music, than you do in tango. And it fits very well with the form of the dance and the rhytm of the music to do a series of eight count patterns.

    But as anyone above beginner level should know, you don't have to do eight count patterns starting on one, you can start on three, five and seven as well. It just fits nicer with the music starting them on one. Also you can do six count, ten count pattern etc.

    When getting more advanced Lindy dancers will discover that many patterns can be dragged out or compressed in time/numer of beats. And it is possible to add hesitations and variation in speed and dynamics, direction shifts and so forth.

    Also the patterns are possible to break down into smaller units or ideas, which can be recombined into new variations on the fly. In other words improvisation outside the pattern boundaries. And this is not so much different than Tango.

    When I teach locally, one of the subjects is just this. I teach two or three different patterns, then I demonstrate their similarities and show that just by combining the elements of two/three patterns, they can suddenly have a quite large repretoire of new patterns.

    So on the surface swing dancing seems much more pattern centric than tango. But as dancers grow more experienced, these differences gets smaller. Swing is also very much improvisation and music interpretation.

    I am not sure how this translates to Modern Jive, and if it is possible to break this dance down in the same way.
  18. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    I thought you had lessons with Paul ?
  19. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    I have indeed - but his patterns aren't replicated by other teachers, that's the point.
  20. kayak

    kayak Active Member

    I had no idea how lucky we are. Everyone told me to go to this one instructor because her students really end up being able to dance. I did and they were right. I don't think any class is shorter than three months. I know she has been going for more than 10 years.

    I was going to add that one of her coaches who probably helped get her started is a DF member who shows up every now and then.

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