Swing Discussion Boards > Ceroc Teaching

Discussion in 'Swing Discussion Boards' started by Dancelf, Mar 9, 2009.

  1. Flat Shoes

    Flat Shoes New Member

    It what dances is it the other way around?

    When I do Lindy, I always dance from the upper body. I can do footwork variations, syncopations and stranger things, but they (ideally) do not affect the follower unless I want them to.
  2. jophil28

    jophil28 New Member

    Bizarre ! " Using arm and body movements to keep time.." ROFL my a$$ off.
    From what I have seen of MJ, having "two left feet" is compulsory.

    Hopefully this MJ fad will pass into the obscurity that it deserves.
  3. Angel HI

    Angel HI Well-Known Member

    See, the thing is that MJ is not new. It is, for all pratical purposes, a watered down, messed up, kind of swing. When the retro swing craze hit the US several years ago, one saw all kinds of untrained "just for fun" swing styles out there, including what is now being called modern jive. This was mostly precipitated by the younger gens, but done by all.

    What laypersons don't realize, or perhaps understand, is that "jive" is the name that Brits favoured for the american dance jitterbug. It is not uncommon in the US to hear someone say, "jitterbug-jive", as if it were the normal calling. Now, when the same dance is danced slower and void of the standardization of jive, it was called modern jive...But only to the Brits because it is not modern at all to us, it has been around since the retro swing boom.

    Understand, also, that it is fun to some. Bowling, hunting, and bungee jumping are fun to some...and, there isn't anything wrong w/ this. Those of us whom ignorance likes to poke fun at are simply saying that AT, salsa, and other free form dances are not some epiphany of MJ, rather that MJ is, in fact, the lazy stepchild of such freeform dances that have been around for much longer. Albanaich's persistence is extremely infantile as, like a child, it believe's that all it knows is all there is. The purpose of this forum is to discuss, expound, educate, and grow, but one has to be able to reach the ground from their omniscience in order to participate.
  4. Albanaich

    Albanaich New Member

    Yep, MJ is watered down messed up kind of Swing - agreed.

    It was called Modern Jive to distinquish it from Ballroom Jive - not for the benefit of Americans.

    As I have endeavoured to point out, technique is not that important in MJ, its the ease with which it is learned and its introduction to other forms of dance that is important.

    Some folks are still not grasping this. . . . . .

    As a 'fad' its been on the go for 25 years, expanding all the time. Its not going away, and Jophil there are probablly about 10 times as many regular Ceroc dancers in Australia as there are Ballroom dancers. You are involved in a minority activity.

    It's ballroom and other kinds of dance that will adapt to Ceroc - not the other way round. Most of the other dance forms in the UK have worked that out and are expanding - but not ballroom, either here or in Australia, which is dying (literally because of lack of young recruits) on its feet.
  5. bjp22tango

    bjp22tango Active Member

    I haven't danced Ceroc, but a friend has. From her description and the above descriptions, it sounds like the dancing anyone who has ever watched swing dancers but never taken a lesson does it. Yank your partners shoulder out of the socket as you lunge around in whichever way you think you should go regardless of what you partner is doing. Albanaich already stated that anyone with any dance talent quickly heads for other dance styles.

    This already happens in any beginning dance lesson before any dance I've ever gone to in the US. Those with no sense of rhythm (or no inclination to fine tune one) get a few movements somewhat down and find a like minded partner and have a bunch of fun. Other dancers interested in DANCING avoid them like the plague. They may come back or maybe not. In later years they will say "yeah, I used to swing dance". Those who really want to dance will start looking around, see how the better dancers are actually emphasising the music and really start to learn how to dance.

    At a Lindy Hop workshop a few years ago, one of the teachers mentioned he and a college friend went to a swing dance. They were having a great time until he noticed that there actually was a patten to the dancing that maybe they should learn. His friend never came back to a dance. I think his friend would love Ceroc.
  6. bjp22tango

    bjp22tango Active Member

    I live in Oregon. Although I don't live in any of the big cities I can travel to them. I can find any kind of dance I want during the week in any level I want. Ballroom, Salsa, AT, Swing (WC, EC, Lindy Hop, Vernacular Jazz, etc.)

    I am happy to say that in my own small town (10,000) I can dance Ballroom, Swing(s) and AT on a regular basis.

    I'm thinking that Ceroc is not taking off in the US simply because that is the kind of dancing that already occurs in bars or niteclubs whem people don't know how to dance. The "lead" and "follow" come from the upper body regardless of what the feet are doing, and following the music takes a back seat to socializing.
  7. Flat Shoes

    Flat Shoes New Member

    Where should the lead and follow come from, if not from the upper body?
  8. jophil28

    jophil28 New Member

    THis is as likely as Wimbeldon tennis adapting to backyard shuttlecock .

    You are one funny guy.
  9. Albanaich

    Albanaich New Member

    I think you've got it in one bjp. . . ..
  10. Albanaich

    Albanaich New Member

    The answer of course is if everyone waited till they had a perfectly prepared Wimbeldon prepared tennis lawn, line judges and umpires before they played tennis - there would be no one playing tennis.

    Even Wimbeldon champions start somewhere. . . . ..
  11. Albanaich

    Albanaich New Member

    Bjp - there's a bit more too it than dancers blindly trying to work out a few moves for themselves, and dancers are definitely discouraged from yanking and forcing their partners, but you've got the general idea.

    An experienced dancer should be able to pick up Ceroc in an hour or two.
  12. jwlinson

    jwlinson Member

    Foxtrot's been around for 90-someodd years, and has also expanded over those years. If you look at all the dances that descended from it (standard style, american smooth style, the "new vogue" styles in Australia, even distant relatives like the "Texas two-step"), you can plainly see that ballroom and its related dances are nowhere close to dying. I shouldn't even have to mention waltz...

    Ceroc reminds me of grinding, to be honest. It has style, but lacks any clear technique. Seems to be one of those "hey, let's try this and see if it works" sort of dances you see in any club. Works for some, but isn't my thing.

    As to your statement that ceroc is in the majority, I ask this: If ceroc is truely totally freeform, how do you define what exactly is ceroc and what is not? By that definition, anyone who doesn't know formal dancing but who is still partner dancing is dancing ciroc, yes? Ask 10 people what soup is and you'll get 10 different descriptions...
  13. Albanaich

    Albanaich New Member

    Ceroc is freeform in the sense that a technically experienced dancer can do almost anything with it. 90% of Ceroc dancers don't have that level of technical ability and stick to the prescribed patterns.

    If you truly want to improvise you need a partner who can follow the music and hear what is coming - people with that level of ability don't stay in Ceroc, or like me they do Ceroc casually, when there is nothing else available.

    I was doing MJ last week and 30 seconds in my partner hi-jacked the lead then proceeded to the hit breaks - immeadiate reaction. You're no Ceroc dancer. - and she wasn't. she was a WCS dancer staying in the city on business, sluming it with the Ceroc mob because there was no Swing available on a thursday night.
  14. SD

    SD New Member

    Awesomely Awfull MJ? youtube, people, youtube.

    I have been reading about this AAMJ far too much for far too long now. When I first read about it of course i went straight to a google video search. I didn't find a. Eventually I any clips, so I decided it was just a myth.

    "The AAMJ; I don't think it exists."

    But I am now beginning to get the idea. It really is sorta like salsa patterns with out any musicality or partnering/lead/follow skills.

    This clip is really nice. I particularly liked the leader's-hand-on-the-a$$ dip at 4:48.

    www <dot> youtube <dot> com/watch?v=gZHZhroHcMg

    priceless. :D

    Also the two-sheilas-at-once dip technique seen just before it.

    I don't see how this could ever catch on in the U.S. Not because we are above it in any way, but just because the americans who would be the target audience are too cheap to shell out cash for the lessons.

  15. Albanaich

    Albanaich New Member

    Lead and follow is actually the most important element in MJ, usually because you often dancing straight of the bat with someone who has never danced before and who may be the most untalented dancer ever.

    Somehow or other you've got to get them round the floor,

    Money isn't an important factor - the amount of user effort and the ability for quick social interaction is - that's why it WILL take off in the USA. It's the lazy persons introduction to dancing.
  16. Albanaich

    Albanaich New Member

    Incidentally the example and comment is a fair and accurate one - and the TV presenter probablly has had no previous experience of Ceroc - though looking at the way she moves I would guess she has had some kind of previous dance training.

    This is the most comical Ceroc video I've seen. . . .


    And no, the music is not dubbed.
  17. Albanaich

    Albanaich New Member

    And you're hearing a lot about MJ because in that strange, bizarro English speaking world known as 'outside the USA' MJ has about the same popularity as Salsa
  18. spot

    spot New Member

    Teaching Ceroc dancers

    Not really having a clue what everyone's talking about and what points they're trying to make, I'm going to try and sit on the fence.

    I do actually applaud any successful attempt at getting people to dance or even just exercise, so to that extent I'm a supporter of what Ceroc has done in the UK.

    I have however had considerable difficulty when teaching salsa (something I do infrequently, being never more than a substitute teacher) to Ceroc students. In fact I don't think I've ever had one come back for a second lesson. (I have danced other latin styles - but not taught)

    The best comparison I could think of is when, as a moderately experienced skier of French Level Black runs, I spent a day learning to snowboard. Being a beginner again was just too traumatic, and learning to fall in new and interesting ways just too wearing on my fragile bones and spirit.

    If I could point to one single point I just couldn't get across, it was the paused beat (the 4 and 8 out of the 1,2,3...5,6,7...).

    How would an experienced (and smarter than me) teacher deal with this?
  19. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    Count the rhythm.... QQS.. explain time allocation
  20. jophil28

    jophil28 New Member

    I kind of disagree SD. 'Cerocyhorror' will never catch on in the USA because you guys ARE above wasting your time on some Brit imported dance fad which is really just clumsy "dancing for the nondancer".
    Why would any existing dancer pay to learn MJ and go backwards ?

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