Tango Argentino > Close embrace

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by Shaka, Dec 28, 2010.

  1. Shaka

    Shaka New Member

    I'm just human. It's very possible I missed some of your posts and I apologize for that.

    I've never called you color-blind people. That was just a personal feeling to illustrate that I can't explain with videos. And that's why I'm continuing with words.

    Seems that you have lots of grieves against me.

    I was just saying that Cristina does (the way I think it is) right with milonguero ochos. You may find elsewhere that she does not do them exactly as she did first. To what I answered that (in my opinion) nobody can do it (the way I think it is) right all times. I too often make mistakes but I'm well aware of them.

    That's right. I'm rude towards rude people, but only rude people.

    That's what I'm trying to do.

    I can't post links yet. So I focused on past links. Would you like me to tell you exactly where in the videos I think it's right or wrong?

    And as for me ;)

    I'm looking forward to show you (although I think I already did).
  2. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    OK, then the disconnect was in your first post. Let's just say that you didn't make a very good first impression, thus it did not cultivate any good will. Maybe you did not intend to be rude, but unfortunately you came across rather poorly from the start (and then got worse).

    What were you looking for, and why didn't you simply ask for whatever it was (in your original post)?
  3. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    Blimey, I'm away for a few hours... OK, bear with me whilst I work through this lot :)

    Yes - it's obviously not a 45% angle or anything in that case, there's simply a small diagonal component to the step when done after a back step.

    On the other hand, an ocho cortado inverts this - it's mostly (or all) sideways, with little or no backwards components.

    Cor, complicated stuff this Tango, innit...
  4. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    Welcome to Tango.

    As I understand them, milonguero ochos don't require dissociation. That seems to be the point of them, in fact, and it's the main difference between them and normal ochos.

    It's been explained to you, many times, that these are different types of step. But you haven't taken that on board, so I can only think you:
    - Have everyone who's explained it on ignore
    - Don't understand the explanations
    - Have decided not to accept them

    Which is it?

    If by "diagonal" you mean a 45-degree angle, yes. I was using "diagonal" to refer to a step which has both a side and a back component - the relative proportions of each component may vary.
  5. Shaka

    Shaka New Member

    We're all looking for money. Will it help if we ask directly for money? We can also ask for people's expectations and get plenty of money by fulfilling them, and it would be more effective, don't you agree?

    Ok my first post was kind of rude but it was necessary. I wouldn't have found what I was looking for otherwise. We would have kindly talked about style preferences and that wouldn't have been of any help for me.

    Now I understand why people don't do the way I expect them to do (see that like a personal preference). It's because they don't see the differences. Not you in particular. But everyone. Like when I was a beginner (I'm not telling that you are beginners, that's just personal feelings). I couldn't "see" weight transfers, hip actions, ball-flat feet placements and so on. Even now I have hard times with on2 salsa dancing. It requires time to assimilate. That's only when we are accustomed to things that they appear clear to us. And that's why we have to do both right and wrong (subjectively) to see (objectively).
  6. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

  7. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Following the didactics and the syllabus of Gustavo Naveira there is no diagonal step in tango, only the cross-step (not to mix with the cruzada).
  8. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    I'd be interested to learn how you reached that conclusion from this thread. FWIW, I am not saying you are wrong, but IMO, there are other possibilities as well. Maybe the communication/instruction/demonstration wasn't clear enough, or maybe the expectations weren't realistic.
  9. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    and in another post:

    So... you thought it necessary to be admittedly rude in your 1st post.

    You go on to say that being arrogant is the way to be remembered.

    But you complain that others were rude to you first and don't like the fact that I say you come across as arrogant.

  10. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    deleted because... never mind
  11. Gssh

    Gssh Well-Known Member

    Ok. So now you have realized that nobody here (and at the milongas you have danced at) sees the difference you feel so strongly about.
    Out of curiosity where are you going to go from here? I don't know how much time and effort you have invested in this (i would guess that you come from a ballroom background and have about 6 months experience in AT - some of the reactions in this thread are a consequence that anybody here who is active in his local tango scene has had a very similar conversation dozends of times), but this is in a way a crossroads - you can either decide to learn more about what differences are perceived in the tango world and what difference are not perceived (which is actually a nice way to think about figuring out what the essentials of any activity are - a dancer hears a different song than a musician, and what a percussionist hears is different from what a lead guitar player hears), or you can continue to suffer in an environment where the aspects of the dance that are important to you are not important to anybody else.
    Most tango dancers have experienced this kind of culture shock - one of the reasons the tango community is fragmented is that while we are usually able to dance and enjoy dancing in a community that has a slightly different perspective on what tango it about, it is always an adventure when you visit a city or a milonga for the first time, and watch the dancefloor, and try to get a feel for the local style - open or close, offset or straight, diagonal or parallel, more circular, more linear, shared weight or not, and tons of more little, almost subliminal things. Some people retract into their own communities, some dance the same thing everywhere, some figure out a range within which they are moving stylistically. As somebody who likes sharing weight i understand that it sometimes aggravating to be somewhere where nobody shares your values (even when i am on danceforums people like opendoor keep telling me that i am "wrong" :) :) :) ), but i think it is also a great opportunity to learn to appreciate and understand what others do,
    I hope you are going to find the tango that makes you happy. Gssh
  12. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    I didn't, bet you wish you hadn't either!
    Still it's an entertaining read - sort of.

    And of course there are diagonal movements
    required by the leader in backward travelling ochos.
    All of this no diagonal stuff reminds me yet again
    of a teacher who insisted recently that the ladies
    squared off the open giro as he liked to see neat
    and tidy corners not a circular movement around the guy.
    It was all about appearance ignoring the fact that
    people are circular, some more circular than others.

    Squareness is irrelevant in the embrace.
    Tango, as we know socially, is not about appearance,
    it's about senses, connection and intuitive movement.

    Agreed but they can include pivots and disassociation depending
    on the abilities of both partners but they don't have to.
    The ones you refer to I think are those that are effectively
    repeating back or front crosses almost or completely on the spot.
  13. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    haha.. as I said.. so much for THAT resolve!

    Ah yes.. the "chair" exercise. (practice your giro going around the 4 sides of a chair) Never mind that there's no requirement to get a full 360* around in a single 4 step sequence and that some leaders can't be gotten around that tightly by some followers. (leg lengths, size of the leader, etc)

    In fact, I don't think I've EVER danced with a leader who I could have gotten 360* around in a single side,back,side,front sequence and I'm not particularly short.

    The one thing the chair exercise is useful for is to illustrate that the steps should be as close to the same length as possible and should also be the same distance from the central point of the rotation (ie: usually, the leader) However, there are far better ways to instill these concepts than expecting a follower to go around the leader as though he is a 4 sided chair. (and really... it's not the end of the world if the steps aren't the same length)
  14. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Yes, that exercise is kind of useless in some respects, in that (like you said) no one ever expects to go the full 360 in one go and it's never really square like that. But, as you also said, it can be useful for other reasons. Steps the same length, maintaining distance from that central point. But the other thing I have found it to be extremely good for is to really focus on control of my own axis and balance, to really separate the step from the pivot, to work on really collecting (especially in the back step), to work on really pushing from one step to another instead of falling into it.

    Like pretty much all exercises, they aren't meant to be taken straight from there onto the dance floor. They're meant to illustrate and drill one (or several) technique(s).
  15. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    Re: Milonguero ochos:
    Yes - it did occur to me that you can create hybrids between Milonguero ochos and normal ochos. But I've not mastered Milonguero ochos yet, so I'm not even going to try those - hybrids typically require you to be able to do both original forms well.
  16. jantango

    jantango Active Member

    Milonguero ochos

    Are you referring to leading or dancing milonguero ochos?

    The man leads them, the woman dances them. Nothing could be more simple. He doesn't have to do anything with his feet. The man merely moves his body to lead the woman.

    If a couple is dancing tango in an embrace, the upper torsos stay together throughout the dance and there is no separation. The simpliest way I can explain it is the woman does the ocho without turning her hips or pivoting her feet.

    There is so much less effort required in tango milonguero than a separated style. If only more men would overcome their shyness about holding women close, they might find that they really like it.

    How can you tell if a couple is dancing tango milonguero?
    The man is doing very little while shows off his partner. That is the foundation of tango for the milongueros of BsAs: the man dances for his partner.
  17. Angel HI

    Angel HI Well-Known Member

    Have been reading this for a while just not wanting to get into moot contrivance. However, now, we might discuss something of note.

    I never liked this exercise either, but it did come from the fact that, at one time (not too terribly long past), this giro was taught in a squared-like fashion that resulted in a 360* rotation.

    This I find a wee confusing also because I have always been taught, from way back in the early '80s, that the technique of 'ocho' really meant to simply swivel. This is to say to allow the movement of the giro to cause/create the movement of the feet rather than to make it a didactic placing. If/When this is done well, then Jan's next point is most accurate....

  18. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    Is this term in the vocabulary of tango after all? ;)
  19. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    It still is taught this way by certain teachers, those probably of
    the show school tendency. Certainly it seems to be more or less
    the standard way of learning/practising open giros. Practising
    grapevines around a broom handle is better for molinettes.

    Before going on to your next point, my theory (because I think it's all it can be)
    is that open giros did start with performance tango of some sort and
    adopted for spacious "Golden Age" salon along possibly with open ochos.
    Both I was taught are "owned" by the lady including the step timing
    of the giro. "Her" ocho starts from the invitation by the man to move from
    the collected position, she steps, collects and swivels 180deg, waits for
    the next invitation or whatever may follow.

    All the talk about the influence of show & school tango on salon isn't about
    anything new. Style variations of any dance have always had cross influences.
    What used to be important was the influence on and by the larger dancing community.
    It is how tango evolved into what it became.

    Today however the influences are different. The tango dancing community is smaller
    and more fragmented. The standardisation of school teaching is now the major influence
    and the resultant commercialism seems to pervade competitions which themselves
    have become marketing tools. Today's dance direction is indeed the result of the age.

    I've read somewhere that the name ocho came about from practising in
    the dirt and the foot pattern left in it vaguely looked like a figure 8. The
    lady's feet do roughly trace an 8 pattern from back cross to back cross.

    But there is no swivel (nor pivot!) and as jantango says the movement
    comes from the man's lead. It requires (Oh No!) body tone and connection.

    Ah, but you missed the caveat:
    I do like it - now! However it isn't just men who are shy.
    Despite coming from other dances, initially I found chest to chest embrace
    a shock and felt very awkward and so did many/most ladies. It takes time
    and isn't naturally part of us - just look at the ballroom "I'm having nothing
    to do with your chest" hold.
  20. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    I have been told, very firmly, that the closeness of the embrace is the follower's decision, not the leaders. If that is true (is it?), then all a man can do is invite a follower into an embrace and wait and see how close feels comfortable for her.

    At my stage of development, I'm not sure that a slightly open embrace doesn't actually make it easier to feel where my partner's weight is. To the extent that the arms are the antenae 'amplifying' the signal from the followers body, it gives me simple contact points to concentrate on, whereas fuller body contact generates too much information that I cannot (yet) tune into very well.

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