Tango Argentino > Close embrace

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by Shaka, Dec 28, 2010.

  1. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Your "advice" is so clearly wrong as to be laughable.
  2. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Oh for god's sake Shaka... even if you are right, that's not how we talk to each other in this forum.

    And, for what it's worth, I'm NOT wrong. You're trying to make rules about the way one must move in AT and these rules simply don't exist. I'd like to know what teachers you've had that have insisted upon these rules.
  3. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    OK, overlooking the fact that you started off this thread by making a whining preaching post that lacked any real substance, as well as made you appear to enjoy criticizing things that you know very little about, I'll consider the possibility that your posts are sincere, rather than the ravings of a troll.

    In this vein, I'd suggest that you consider the possibility that your knowledge of tango might be related to only one style (although it's hard to tell from your posts what style you actually know a lot about). Anyways, these "rules" you talk about, mostly appear to be nothing more than style preferences. This may conflict what what you have been taught, but it would explain why your wisdom has not been embraced as much as you appear to have expected.

    Oh, I almost forgot, Welcome to the Forum.

  4. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    That's sweet of you, but I have teachers already in order to improve. I'm not sure why you would expect me to take the word of an anonymous stranger on the internet whose ideas clearly conflict with EVERYTHING I have learned about AT over the advice of the highly skilled and experienced teachers I have had.

    I post a lot about technique on this forum, but I try to do it from the viewpoint of "this is what I was taught and it works for me in the style I dance (and teach) most often... your mileage may vary and it may not apply to other styles"

    Your arrogance is not winning you any converts on this forum. If you want to help people improve, I suggest you work on your approach first. Mostly your posts come across as tactless, patronizing, superior, condescending and now, with this "if you don't want to improve" comment, downright insulting. No one is going to listen to the substance of what you say when you express yourself with such an attitude. Even if you were right about all of it, you're just putting people off. Since you aren't right about all of it, you're even less likely to influence anyone.

    Good luck with your mission.. I'm going to the movies.
  5. Shaka

    Shaka New Member

    You would have preferred to be told that everyone is nice and everyone is good at dancing? No one should criticize? So why people are taking lessons if all they do is perfecly perfect? I may talk to you about family, children, travels but I'm sure you would not be interested in sharing such activities with someone you don't know nor than I would. For your information, I have many teachers in many areas like classical dance, argentine tango, tango nuevo, ballroom, salsa, swing and so on. They may not teach the (what I consider) correct things but I get a rather good idea of what's best.
  6. Shaka

    Shaka New Member

    Unfortunately people forget about ones wihtout personality and do remember the ones with strong (arrogant) personality. I'm glad to have been in your mind for such a long time. It means that you have considered what I told. We may not agree to each other but I'm sure you'll think about that discussion when you go back dancing. Have a nice time with your movies.
  7. Shaka

    Shaka New Member

    Come on, I was just talking about one unelegant move made by milongueros. I'm not criticizing the whole milonguero style of dance (which I do with trained partners).

    Thank you guy.
  8. waltzgirl

    waltzgirl Active Member

    You may be in people's minds, but nobody will be thinking about the content of what you said. The only thing that sticks out is the arrogance. Honey, people here are laughing at you.
  9. Ampster

    Ampster Active Member

    Instead of maligning everybody else and espousing how correct you are, why don't you show us?

    Post a video of yourself and show us how you think it's supposed to be done.
  10. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    That's sad that you feel being obnoxious is the way to be remembered. The people I remember the longest are just the opposite.

    I wouldn't say you have been in my mind for "such a long time". It's been what? A few days? That's not very long in my life, but maybe I'm a lot older than you. In fact, I'm getting bored already with this thread.

    And I'm pretty sure I'll have other things on my mind than this discussion next time I go dancing. You are seriously overestimating your influence, I'm afraid. Will YOU be thinking of this discussion when you go dancing? If so, then it seems that I had more influence on you than the reverse.
  11. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    Of himself? You gotta be kidding. Several people repeatedly asked for mere examples of what the OP considered an elegant dancing or good dancers names, to no avail so far...
  12. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    For a troll, that would be more than enough. Mission accomplished.
  13. Ampster

    Ampster Active Member

    Yes, a video of Shaka.

    Shaka, show us a video of yourself. Show us what your talking about.
  14. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    I dunno, perhaps it's just me, but somehow I have a feeling that you' re not gonna get your wish, Ampster. :rolleyes:
    I would pretty much settle for videos and names illustrating the good idea he has about what's best out there...
  15. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    No, a diagonal step refers to the path that the foot takes. And the foot moves diagonally for a cross. Every class I've taken, every teacher I've had, has taught that. They may all have been wrong of course.

    But, the main point is, an ocho milonguero involves a series of crosses. It does not involve pivots. So the entire advice you gave on pivotting is irrelevant with regards to the ocho milonguero.
  16. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    I hesitate to post on this thread, at all, but this statement struck me as being, well, only partly true. I'd better explain (I haven't come trolling!):

    I know that a cross can be led from almost any position, and that, with skill, can seem to be created out of almost nothing. (I can't do it, but I accept that more experienced leaders can). I think I know that the follower never crosses (indepentantly), but that the cross is created by the leader. The follower 'crosses' because it is where her moving foot ends up in the position in which she finds herself. It is natural, comfortable and easy. Not to cross would be unnatural, uncomfortable and difficult.

    The easiest position from which to lead a cross is in a series of walking steps, and if we took steps 345 from the dreaded 8CB, we have follower walking back LRL, but she finds that on the last step, her natural backward walk has led her to take one foot over the other into the cruzada. But she just walked backwards, and the idea of stepping diagonally never presented itself.

    I thought long and hard about this action from the persepctive of teaching the mechanics to beginners. For those that don't know, I'm a dance teacher, but not (yet) of AT - and it is inevitable, with me, that the development of my own understanding of something is nearly always in the context of being able to stand in front of a couple or a class and communicate that understanding to them (and if I can't, then I haven't understood myself, and should give them their money back).

    So what made the follower cross in the typical setup found in the 8CB? The most obvious answer, to me, was that if the movement was taught IN the 8CB, she crossed because the teacher told her to. All the ladies have just spent three minutes dancing those 8 steps solo to the teacher's count, and they are about to come together and find that they can dance tango - viola!

    But seriously, why does the follower cross? I looked at the structure of the 8CB, and having missed out the backstep, took the sidestep to my left, a little wider than my partner, and with a fair bit of body rotation to my right, and then led her back by stepping forward with a marked left side lead from my own torso, while moving straight down the line of dance. I put a little additional acceleration into my fourth step (LF), slightly disturbing my partner's balance, and then as I moved to my own close, hopefully communicating a cessation of forward intention together with the reversal of my initial body rotation, my partner took the opportunity to recover her own balance by the cruzada. I set it up: she just stepped back. But it was back - not consciously diagonal, and had it not been for that rotation, led while her foot was in movement, the feet would have passed, and we would have carried on down the floor.

    Or would we?
  17. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Hi UKDancer, why that complicated? You can get along without .. 8cB, acceleration, diagonal, disturbing, balance, reverse rotation...

    Walk in Xsystem and try to get the woman into a cross three times successively one by one after another

    What will you do?

    When she takes a cross-step (naveiran terminology) with her RF back (#4/8cB) ...

    the leader gives an impuls to his left (her right side) and her LF can´t help but crossing

    and again cross-step backwards, crossing and so on.

    For the woman it´s simply a change of the stepping track (sorry my dictionary suggests lane, rut, or track. What will fit best?)

    (Will hope that the word processor will not rip it apart..)

    before 1 2 3 ............... after 1 2 (3)

    (V = female toecap)

    Once you explained it to a leader this way, he is able to perform a cross out of really every position, and without any start-up as the 8cB.
  18. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    Thats just as 'complicated' as my version, isn't it - but I think describes the same process? And can you get along without being able to describe what you're doing? My description might be incomplete, or inaccurate or misleading, but if I am in front of a class I doubt it will help my beginners to say that the lady can just cross without using any terminology that might suggest how? Visual learners may be able to accurately observe the process and mimic it, but much AT lead is too subtle to be obviously visible to others, even if they knew what they were looking for, and beginners, by definition, don't.

    Track, I think.
  19. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member


    The advantage is that you simply can demonstrate it by drawing tracks on the floor..

    Thanks :grin:
  20. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    As a trained teacher I profoundly disagree. A competent teacher needs to be able to address the varied learning styles of a whole class, and cannot rely on the methods that will be of most use to visual learners. I have to deliver my instruction in a way that works for all - which means using a variety of methods, usually, a one-size-fits-all method is a cop out.

    However I deliver my material/instruction (although my post wasn't really about how to teach this action), I have to understand what I am doing, or asking my partner to do, before I can do it. My thinking was about the mechanics of a 'diagonal' step into the cruzada, and it is obvious, from what I wrote, that I am not convinced that the movement is diagonal.

    Partly, this is because of the particular meaning that I attribute to the idea of a diagonal step, based on my training in formal Ballroom technique. I think if Dave Bailey & I were in conversation, we would immediately realise that we both used the words to mean something different, and that we could readily agree about the actual physical movement involved. For me, if I describe a step as being diagonally forward, I mean that the position of one foot in relation to the other foor at the end of the (moving phase of the) step is as far to the side as it is forward, but that says nothing, directly, about the direction in which the foot moved in order to arrive at that finished position.

    My contention is that the foot doesn't move diagonally (at least, not deliberately), but I expect I'm wrong!

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