Tango Argentino > close or open embrace

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by aqua, Jan 5, 2010.

  1. bafonso

    bafonso New Member

    Sure, gustavo naveira even does it in public demos. How long have you been dancing?
  2. tangonuevo

    tangonuevo New Member

    Yessss. Follows - believe me. You are NEVER on the wrong foot unless you are standing on mine. THEN, but only then, are you on the wrong foot.

    Now, you may be on a foot that I hadn't anticipated, but is that due to miscommunication or because that's where you wanted to be? Does it matter? And as a partnership, we just dance on.

    :snake: Unless you are my practice partner in which case I berate you and never let you forget what a wonderful lead I am and what a lousy follow you are. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
  3. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Hehehe! Yup. I agree.

    The times I've known I wasn't where I was supposed to be it was because someone got kicked or stepped on (sometimes myself), or the following lead didn't make any sense all of a sudden, or as I was executing a lead something went off in my brain that said "Um...you know you just felt a lead to do X, so why are you doing NOT-X?" Or, one time I did my thing and caught my leader's expression which was sort of a look of, "Well, that was interesting. Oh well." followed by a shrug. I realized that I had been anticipating and on autopilot, apologized, and he responded by just saying it was OK and he could work with it just fine! :) But I still wasn't doing what I was supposed to have been doing.

    Like you said, it generally does me no good to try and figure out where I'm supposed to be. Life goes much better when I stop thinking, start feeling, and trusting. When I don't...I tend to end up on the wrong foot. :)
  4. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Or, option #3: It's not where we wanted to be, there wasn't miscommunication as such, we just momentarily tuned you out and did our own thing. Ahhh...anticipation!
  5. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    I guess my first assumption is always that my lead wasn't clear enough.
  6. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Sometimes that is the case. I've found it's pretty rare if the guy is reasonably experienced with whatever he's trying to lead. (Or unless he hadn't decided, himself, what he wanted to lead. That's a bit of an issue.)
  7. tangonuevo

    tangonuevo New Member

    Okay. I'm through working. I can go out and play some more.

    And mine first assumption is that she is where she wants to be, and it really doesn't matter how she got there, including Peaches #3, that she tuned me out for a moment. I tend not to dance with an agenda, even a stepwise agenda, except floorcraft. Other than that, it is a partnership in every sense. Yes, I try to give wonderful leads. But whether or not the lead was wonderful, or even clear, we just dance on no matter.

    Now if several different follows react in a manner that is unexpected by moi, and/or if they say things like "What the H was that supposed to be?", or polite versions of that, it is clearly time to head back into the woodshed.
  8. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    We seem to spend as much time discussing the discussion as discussing the dance.

    Okay, she could have wound up there for multiple reasons, originating with either partner. The point is, I think, and as already stated, if something is out-of-whack, it's the leaders job to resolve it, not the followers.
  9. chanchan

    chanchan Member

    Ok, I try to explain myself better.
    If you are with your weight on my foot, I don't need to guess, assume, or know to the best of my abily, and I don't need any special skill to undertand where is your weight. I think everybody can agree on this... ;)

    Now, when we have a shared axis, the weight is partially shared: I feel it on myself, it's not something that I have to discover.
    If dancing on axis, the weight is all on the ground. So, understanding where it is is more difficult. Difficult doesn't mean impossible, but it means that if you are a beginner, you have more chaces to develop bad habits.
    This is a good exercise to develop balance and attention to your partner, but I don't think you can call tango something where you need to look in order to lead or follow.
    I didn't have classes with Naveira, but, from the exibitions that I saw, it seems that he, like any other good dancer, doesn't rely on the sight to lead.
  10. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Tru dat. IME, the follower trying to resolve a "mistake"/mistake only makes things worse.
  11. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    That explains a lot

    Ooer mister.

    Frighteningly enough, yes... :)
  12. Subliminal

    Subliminal Well-Known Member

    Hmm... I have very limited experience with weight sharing, so I've always had to find the followers feet without sharing the axis. The only time I have any real difficulty is when the follower isn't using good walking technique and is too "light". I guess if you're sharing the same axis, it might help you find their feet better if you're standing still, but when dancing I think it helps to use dynamic cues instead, which should tell you where they are in oe or ce or ce shared axis.
  13. bastet

    bastet Active Member

    I would wager that if a lady feels "too light" to you, then she probably is not grounding her standing leg properly.
  14. chanchan

    chanchan Member

    I agree with you, but pauses are a part of the dance: dancing doesn't necessarily means stepping...
  15. bafonso

    bafonso New Member

    Given enough proficiency (ie, lots and lots of practice) you will be able to know where your partner has the weight. Sure a beginner will suck at it but then again, a beginner will suck at everything he does, hence, the definition. Having or not a shared axis, it will still be hard for a beginner to realize where the weight is, unless the lady is doing a mega apilado (which, will mean her dancing life won't go far).

    I don't know what bad habits you are concerned about. Again, how long have you been dancing to make such claims? The reason I ask is that it seems you're making a big fuss about nothing. People learn by trying and failing. I have yet to know any great dancer that learned it overnight. Bad habits come from lack of discipline and bad teachers, not from lack of normal lack of sensitivity of body awareness beginner's have.
  16. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    Women should be aware of the fact that how they do their weight changes, how they step, and how they carry themselves when stationary either facilitate or inhibit the man's ability to know where her weight, feet, etc are.
    In any partner dance both partners have to contribute to make the dance, although they may have different roles.
  17. Mario7

    Mario7 Member

    Well, I agree that the woman's weight change should be telegraphed by the woman...digging into the floor with the engaged foot would help. I dance with
    a very light and quick stepping woman and it's not easy. I have to take special care with every move, it restricts my orgiastic enjoyment of the dance.
  18. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    Yes, I remember.
    I recently found a 1968 book on dancing that acutally warns women to not be too light, because it makes it difficult for the man to lead.
  19. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    Absolutely right. Each dancer, followers and leaders, should not only have a good axis, but they should express it to their partners.
  20. chrisjj

    chrisjj New Member

    > one-to-one is a private class. That's what "private class" means.

    A private class may be one-on-one or it may be for a group but exclusive, as for example is usual on tango package tours. And anyway, I said "private one-to-one session" which does not have to be what you call a class at all, e.g. people arrange with a partner to practice with, sometimes paying for a more experienced partner. This happens in scenes as dissimilar as e.g. Berlin where the average apartment living room which is more than adequate for dancing, and London despite that there most have to hire a studio.

    And then of course there are public one-to-one sessions in practicas. It's no coincidence that cities with the strongest tango scenes have a strong tradition of practicas. In the Golden Age in BsAs, it was in practicas that men began learning the dance. Classes were almost unheard of for the first 100 years of tango, until the recent commercialisation of tango education driven by tourist demand. In the world's second tango city, Berlin, there are over 30 practicas per week, often happening before milongas. The number of milongas that run classes beforehand is approximately zero.

    Tango dance education worldwide has combinations of lesson/practice, private/public, individual/class, open/closed etc. that most people don't see because different cultures use the subset that fits with local practicalities and preferences. Most of this forum's writers seem to be from cultures heavily centred on public group classes, such as USA and UK. That's fine... but there are many other options.

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