Tango Argentino > Come as couple - but lady gets no dances

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by aaah, Jun 8, 2015.

  1. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    ok... but you totally missed my point, which wasn't that the good followers don't get dances, but rather that the leaders expect to get dances with the BEST followers regardless of their OWN skill level.

    In fact, kinda the opposite of what you are saying here.
    raindance likes this.
  2. Mladenac

    Mladenac Well-Known Member

    Everyone can expect what they want to expect. ;)

    There is nothing wrong in expecting the best followers.
    If they are motivated for improvement why they shouldn't have.

    And a famous dancer said that men should be rejected so they can improve.
    Not inviting followers can work that way also.

    And defintion of best leaders/follower is very vague. :)
  3. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    The leaders that I am referring to are not looking to improve, but have an unreasonably inflated view of where they are NOW.

    They are not hoping to dance with followers at higher levels of experience to facilitate their own growth, but rather because they feel that anyone else is "beneath" their level, even when the followers they shun are actually either AT their level or still above it.

    It is easy to see that this is their attitude because they are usually the same leaders who will correct and teach their follower even when it is likely that problems stem from their lead.

    Arrogance is rarely an incentive to improve.
  4. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    This is a world of entitlement that I have never experienced.
    I can't think of anyone here in Portland who had that attitude.

    Any thoughts on who these people are?

    And, are there others who find this to be the case in their communities, or even here in Portland?
  5. Mladenac

    Mladenac Well-Known Member

    IME beginner/intermediate or intermediate leaders have that approach.

    They think they learned how to dance, but they didn't.
    And some slowly develop their style but have to adapt to style of teachers in community.
    So they become aggressive and teach around when not asked.

    Long time or advanced dancers are more prone to adapt their dancing to the follower.
    And might answer/correct when being asked on practica, but some would refuse.
    Because those students have teachers and they don't want to do free work.
  6. Cal

    Cal Well-Known Member

    Oh, yes.

    To be fair, it's the same sense of entitlement that occurs in many, many other sports or games in which people start acquiring skills and assume that they are on par with much more experienced participants - until they get advanced enough to start learning what it is that they haven't learned.
  7. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    Some people with the habit of unsolicited teaching grow out of it eventually.
    But some don't. They have to rely mostly on newcomers to get dances and exercise their habit.
    Mladenac likes this.
  8. koinzell

    koinzell Active Member

    I agree completely with this:
    Lilly_of_the_valley likes this.
  9. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    LOL Seriously, I did!

    When I looked at the photo at the top of the page, I couldn't help but think about a comment to a male contestant on this week's DWTS which went, more or less, I would like to see your bum tucked under more.
    I guess now we know the reason why some women dance with their butt sticking out. And, for the record, I think the reason given is BS.
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2015
  10. LadyLeader

    LadyLeader Active Member

    There is a corresponding phenomenon among the followers who socialise intensively to get dances with the best leaders in their reach regardless of their own skill level.

    If you have been dancing for a while so you have reasonable leading skills the pressure accumulates from the follower group and it can be quite intense.

    In most tango communities the follower/leader groups are of different size and it creates tension and unfair practices for both groups. The difficulties this situation creates for leaders are seldom discussed.
  11. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    Just curious, what are those unfair practices?
    People dance with whom they want to dance. Whatever reason for their desire or lack thereof may be.
    I would not call that "unfair". Although I see how it may seem so for some.
    From my observations, if there is a pressure to dance with someone, good dancers of whatever gender stop showing up. I know of a few who have a free pass to some milongas but still don't come, for that exact reason -- the pressure to dance more/with certain people or similar expectations they are not willing to fulfill.
  12. Mladenac

    Mladenac Well-Known Member

    If they have permission from SO or some other influntial person in the community. ;)
  13. Mladenac

    Mladenac Well-Known Member

    Should I join Tango leaders union? ;)
    Or organize one.

    What interests should they have?
  14. LadyLeader

    LadyLeader Active Member

    Sometimes I have managed the situation by closing my dance circle and communicated clearly that I am dancing only with these few people. (i just turn down requests from others)

    Usually I am dancing a lot at a milonga but during my cancer treatment it was not possibly but I needed to rest every other tanda. When seated the followers had the chance to catch me and still, five years after, I am upset about it.
    Mladenac likes this.
  15. LadyLeader

    LadyLeader Active Member

    No, I don't think so! ;)

    Today the lack of available dances is IMO entirely a follower problem and they should cooperate and solve it.

    When it was a leader problem it was solved by the leaders. They created a structure where the dancing skill was the key and the leader group was controlling the access to the pista.

    I think I have seen one attempt to easy the situation in a milonga. It was initiated by a female organizer who hired house leaders who the followers could ask for a tanda. All the other actions are discussions about how to dress and behave to beat another follower.

    ( More detailed about this on my blog http://leadingladyl.blogspot.se/2014/02/women-cooperate.html )
  16. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    We solve that kind of problems by organizing the milonga in a traditional way ( assigned sitting, cabeceo, everyone gets off the floor during cortinas, men accompany women to their seats after the tanda, etc) and educating people on the culture of tango. It works. That kind of setup allows people to dance with whom they want when they want, to minimize (if not completely eliminate) opportunities of coming over and issuing unwelcome invitations, chatting somebody up, intecepting partners on the floor before the next tanda starts, etc. That also discourages people who absolutely rely on social pressure to get dances, and encourages respectful behavior. It favors and promotes good dancing.
    And actually, when everyone is sure their wishes and their personal space are respected, people relax and dance a lot more.
  17. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Most of this is good, but restricting people from chatting wouldn't work in most regional or small communities where the tango event is where you have a chance to get together with friends and socialize. Of course, the socializing area could be further from the dance floor, but often organizers don't have the luxury of a venue that allows for that extra space. Even in DC, people chatted when they weren't dancing. The awkward part is socializing with someone you have no wish to dance with.

    It seems to be that basic courtesy and consideration would eliminate a great deal of the pressure tactics that are used. Obviously though, basic consideration isn't always present.
  18. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    No one restricts people from chatting. There is a bar with snacks where people socialize, there is the area where groups are seated shall people choose to enjoy the milonga as a group and be more social. More formal setup just helps avoiding unwanted interactions without being awkward. Also, a big help is the understanding that a dance invitation is generally issued at a certain point (at the beginning of a new tanda when a prospective partner indicates he/she is ready to seek/receive one), and not just at a random moment.
    The place does not have to be big, it is the matter of organization.
  19. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    I misunderstood when you said "assigned seating" and "minimizes the opportunity ... to chat someone up"

    However, the space does have to be big enough that there is room somewhere beyond the seats surrounding the dance floor. We have had some events where, believe it or not, that didn't exist. You couldn't even get from one end of the room to the other without being on the dance floor.
  20. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    There is space, but not on all ends. One can walk on the edge of the floor. A lot of milongas in Buenos Aires have a similar setup. There is a wall or two of single row tables, where the single men and women sit opposite to each other, and two or in some places three walls with space behind /in between tables and seats to walk.

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