General Dance Discussion > Dancewear: Prices are "hot hot hot"!

Discussion in 'General Dance Discussion' started by Twilight_Elena, Mar 21, 2005.

  1. pygmalion

    pygmalion Well-Known Member

    And about Tosca. I still think they're missing out on a huge potential market -- maybe not competitive folks. But there are a lot of franchise and other studios out there full of normal-sized women looking for reasonably priced dancewear for showcases and spotlights. That's how I discovered Tosca in the first place -- looking for a showcase costume. And I wore an eight ... just barely. :lol: :lol:
  2. cocodrilo

    cocodrilo New Member

    No kidding about size 10 being too big! That's me after a big banquet(no kidding, get a scale & tape measure & I'll show ya!)!!! 8)
  3. Kitty

    Kitty New Member

    oh, I understand you so well...
    My parents didn't bring me to ballroom when I was little, and when I was old enough to make my own decisions, I thought I was too old. Certainly would be too old to start and be taken seriously in Russia. It took my friend a year to convince me that I'm not too old to join the dance team on campus here in the US...

    And I haven't seen an adult non-serious (that is not for professional dancers) ballet class offered in Russia.
  4. Kitty

    Kitty New Member

    Does it really? I never thought so. I thought only things that could be easily noticed from a distance matter...

    My theory was that maybe manicure makes women FEEL gorgeous which then adds to confidence and lets them dance better.
  5. Laura

    Laura New Member

    Oh, you'd be suprised...a pro once told me that a judge told her he didn't mark her higher because a piece of her hair was flapping as she danced. Obviously a newcomer amateur is cut a lot more slack than an experienced pro, but still....

    Also, I've been told that some judges won't mark people with certain looks or builds well, even if their dancing is good, because they don't want to promote anyone who doesn't have what is considered to be the right "look" for dancesport.

    In spite of all this I still compete, isn't it crazy? I just enjoy dancing that much!
  6. macha

    macha New Member

    Well, no, because then some of the thinner people would actually have to perform well to beat some of the big old broads who know what a hip roll (hell, try a whole hip bakery/deli combined, not just one little roll) is. Something I've noticed is that just because I've packed on a lot of weight from when I was 20, 5'7, and 100 lbs is that I still know how to and can do all of the things I used to be able to do. I might look worse for doing them now according to pretty people, but I'm not the one lamenting about hip motion or body rolls, now. (Although momentum can be a dangerous thing. RUN EVERYBODY!! RUN!!)

    And, as long as larger people with the same talent or better (not me, just saying they ARE out there though) are kept down by people with the "pretty people" interests at heart, it IS just a game that's being played- with unfair odds to those who deserve it.

    (groan at horse anecdote)

    Show horses are no longer judged on conformation and ability. In an average Quarter Horse, American Saddlebred, or Tennessee Walking Horse show, more money is spent on TAIL EXTENSIONS- yes, "weaves" stitched, tied, or otherwise affixed to the horses' tails for length and fullness. A horse NOT having this piece will in all likelihood get the gate (excused) or be marked embarassingly low, regardless of talent.

    So, again, tell me what difference longer hair makes to floorcraft, in essence?

    I'm not buying it. Say what you will, it's a free country, but sometimes the truth is as simple as "as long as people condone it or silently go along with it, it's ok, because nobody has the nards to change it, and why should they, as long as it works for them?"
  7. Laura

    Laura New Member

    Of course.

    So, then, how to you propose to make the dancesport judges give up their attitudes, feelings, and predjudices that make some of them tend to mark the pretty people first? Did I mention I read an interview a few years ago with one US-based judge who said she doesn't mark fat people because their fatness says to her that they aren't practicing enough? How can you change this kind of attitude?

    Not all judges feel this way...but the prettiness thing is basically rampant in dancesport. Like, one of my old teachers told me the judges could tell if his weight shifted up by as little as three pounds, and that he'd hear about it.

    Yes, they're pickier on the pros, but I can't imagine that when they look at an amateur or Pro/Am couple that all these notions go completely out the window.
  8. sunderi

    sunderi New Member

    That's why I have everything custom made. :) Being short, athletically built (really, not just a euphamism for chunky) with larger thighs (with muscles! :shock: ) and larger breasts, I just have no chance in :twisted: of fitting into an off the rack dance gown.

    But this way, I get it exactly how I want it, anyway. ;)
  9. IvyAB

    IvyAB Member

    Actually, Chrisanne does sell American size 0-2 practice skirts. They're labeled UK size 6, so I ordered one, thinking it would be a US 4 (isn't that the conversion?), but it was way too small for me. I had one of my tiny students try it on, thinking I would sell it to her instead of sending it back, but it was too small for her, too. (She's a 0-2.)
  10. macha

    macha New Member

    Same way you lower prices on dancewear, ballgowns, specialty items, etc. in dancesport and stud/competition fees in horsesport- the people "at the top of it" have the choice to "speak out" or do something.

    A debate rose in a horse forum awhile back about "why don't more champion/professional trainers wear helmets- it would set an example of safety, and others would follow", because of all the people to set an example for a discipline, breed, standard, whatever- the ones in the public eye the most have the most leverage. Why? They spend the most money, have sponsors, win most, etc. etc. etc.

    After all- who's going to listen to fat people just wanting to wear the stuff out every friday or saturday night? They're just the ones buying the stuff.

    Never mind the gross misconceptions that fat people choose to be this way, and there aren't factors in their lives that lend to this predicament, like medications, genetics, accidents, etc. etc. etc. Isn't it amazing, that not only can one dance, but they're also doctors, psychologists, nutritionists, etc.? A veritable swiss army knife.

    Granted, there are people that are "fat lazy slobs"- who eat bucketsfull of unhealthy food, don't exercise, and then whine because they can't be cinderella, but there are also those who eat less, do more, and have just had a lot of weird changes happen that took them by surprise. It's coming off, just not as fast as the dancesport world would like.

    But thanks for plugging for us. Your concern is deeply appreciated. I'd buy you a lunch someday, but I know you're watching your weight, and besides- not a lot of people have closeted vanity issues- you know, guilty by association... watch out, calories just might melt off me and stick to you... :wink: (that's a joke, son)
  11. Laura

    Laura New Member

    If this is directed at me then let me remind you that I am on your side. After all, I'm the person who wears a 14-16, who is over 40, and who is dancing in Amateur events against 25-year-olds with size 4-6-8 figures. I might be "normal" sized in the sense of the statistical average in the US, but in the dance competition world I'm often the heaviest dancer in the room -- and that's even counting most of the men.
  12. ayume

    ayume New Member

    I know a girl who's about a size 10-12 who is an AMAZING dancer. And she has won almost every single competition in every category she competed in: she went from newcomer to gold/novice in 2+years. Even our Latin coach thinks that she's amazing :) So (I think) if one's good it doesn't really matter what you look like!
  13. emanuela

    emanuela New Member

    That's encouraging! :D
  14. macha

    macha New Member

    It IS encouraging. It's a lot more encouraging than just saying "I'm just saying what someone told me" and not doing anything about it. To me, a simple "well that isn't right," would have helped. A lot of people will let someone run someone down the road to them, even if they might be their friend, and not say a word in their defense. Silence is sometimes the same as acceptance.

    I visited a farm once where the man REALLY trashed another farm owner's stock. Went so far as to say they were beaten and drugged, all sorts of BS- it just so happened that it was the farm I worked at. When I told him "I'm filing a complaint with your association", he changed his tune. Then he did it again next week to someone else. We then all got together and got him temporarily suspended. Now he's a bit more discreet about things like that.

    (we can't always kick 'em in the nads, unfortunately)
  15. Laura

    Laura New Member

    I ask again: what do you want dancesport competitors to do about it? Please give me a concrete scenario of how you would handle it at a dancesport competition if you truly felt that you were overlooked because of something not related to the actual dancing, such as grooming or physique.
  16. cocodrilo

    cocodrilo New Member

    Do competitors ever question their scores? Are there ever discussions with judges regarding unfair scoring? It is really sad to hear that people would get points knocked off for not having the "ideal" body for dance. That's just plain discrimiation. Look at Midori Ito, for example, who skated in the (was it Lillehammer?) Olympics? Hardly had the "ideal" body for skating, stocky and muscular but she performed a spotless routine and was even the first woman to execute in competition(and complete!) a very complicated jump(I forget if it was a triple or quad jump, sorry!)
  17. macha

    macha New Member

    I thought I was fairly clear on it, and I'm sorry I wasn't- not that I'm ever capable of muddling things, of course. Question things that don't look right. If there is indeed an arror, complain (diplomatically) about it. Just because it doesn't affect you doesn't mean that someday it won't come back around and bite you.

    "I'm not overweight- so it doesn't affect me"... (not saying you said that, but that's the excuse many would give) what's going to happen in a few years when that "ideal physique" makes your dress size suddenly "in the red"? In other sports, it's all about getting faster and faster, but what if it were getting thinner and thinner?

    I'm saying when people SAY things like you mentioned about the scoring due to body image, why not counter with "is that even in the rulebook? Is that something you should be judging on? that doesn't sound legal- would higher-ups concur?" instead of just nodding.

    And, it doesn't do any good to say "well, I'm not saying who said that"... that doesn't lend any credibility anywhere. Now, saying "Yes, Fabio Ochoa was a big cartel member and owned most of the champions in Colombia" makes more sense (and is true, look it up) makes one sound a lot more credible than "Well... someone told me that someone here- and I can't say who- does a lot of drug-running, and that's how he pays for those horses."

    Now, granted, Don Ochoa wasn't one you could "banter" about and really get away with it, but unless your ballroom judges are mafiosos, I think a little bit of "you know that guy right there? *point* he told me last week that sasquatches won't make the cut if they dance like Ginger Freakin' Rogers"

    Nuf said, I don't want to burn any calories over it, I just like a good discussion is all. I'm dun. Done- done, sorry. Done. (mind out of the barnyard, oops)
  18. Laura

    Laura New Member

    You're right, but I don't have the cajones to name names in a place like this, which makes me part of the problem. But just because I don't name names doesn't mean the attitudes going around aren't out there. I will point out a couple of comments, though, that have appeared in the dance media:

    Did anyone see the videotaped interview on Dance Beat International's web site about a year ago where Didio Barrerra was talking with Diana MacDonald about excessive thinness in Latin dancers? He was saying that he actually likes a woman with some meat on her bones so that she'd look womanly (go Didio!), and Diana was all like "weeeeell...but you've got to look good in your costume!" Didio made some comment about some of the girls looking anorexic or just too thin, and the most Diana could come back with was lady dancers need to be healthy but thin.

    How about the interview that was published on Dance Vision's web site in about 2000 or 2001 where Nadia Eftedal commented that if she sees an overweight dancer she won't mark them because overweight says to her that the dancers are not practicing enough? It was in a section on their old web site where judges would give tips and advice and comment on what they look for. There was another article in that same series by someone else suggesting that women need to get a new dress after every three or four wearings.
  19. Kitty

    Kitty New Member

    And why is that? What was the argumentation?
  20. Laura

    Laura New Member

    Unfortunately the article is gone since they reorganized their web site a year or two ago. I'd look it up otherwise. I have a feeling that particular article was written by someone from one of the big US dressmakers, though :)

    I do recall that the writer also thought that one dress every six months was the minimum reasonable replacement rate if you did a lot of competitions, and one per year if you do only a few comps per year.

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