Salsa > Dancing? Or Puppetmaster Pulling Strings?

Discussion in 'Salsa' started by SalsaTO, Dec 4, 2006.

  1. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    champs ?

    Just one more to add to the never ending list of claims to a title which has never brought the " Contenders " ( ? ) to the same table, and who is sanctioning these events ?-- my guess--- self promoters .
  2. englezul

    englezul New Member

    In the Big words of someone very wise: BLASPHEMY! :)

    With performers you might have a point. But with World Salsa Champions...not so much IMO.

    I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here because the majority of performers are just representastives of XYZ Dance School and a performance in itself, although it might be good it's not subjected to extreme technical scrutiny. Performers are participating in the congresses where the crowd comes in already in a good state, so they go cheering even the weaker performance there. It's ok.

    But World Salsa Championships? Have you seen the couples line up for last year. These are not your average dancers. Their execution was flawless and this includes perfect timing, perfect connection, continuous flow, variety, etc. And usually the music they perform on is very fast. Next to this show, the Club Mayan competition is a child's game.

    The toughest panel of judges is in charge there and they follow every single freaking detail. In that context, a WSC is expected to possess mastery of the dance. And they do. We'll see if this level of quality is maintained for the next years. But my opinion is it will.

    Have you seen the lineup to the last years competition. The executions were flawless. And especially Oliver's. I've seen this guy social dance. He is insanely good.
  3. englezul

    englezul New Member

    You don't know what you're talking about. And it's ok. At this moment that competition is the largest in the world. And talk about the zillions of qualifying and eliminatory rounds throughout the year. Read up on it. And watch the DVD!
  4. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member


    I dont know what I,m talking about ?-- i could tell you 3 different people at this time ,that make the same claim-- and prey tell me, seeing as you are setting yourself up as an authority-- who are sanctioning the events ?--- and by what authority ?
  5. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member


    By the way-- are you implying by your statement " the music is very fast "-- is that what impresses you ?, and that validates their quality of performance ? -- on the contrary-- slower music is ALWAYS , more difficult to interpret .
  6. alemana

    alemana New Member

    Luda was australian youth latin (dancesport) champion, i think, which is no small potatoes.... but it looks like she was interested in salsa pretty early as well. From the technique she displays in that video, she made the right decision to take her career in the direction of salsa rather than dancesport.

    Here's a video of Oliver social dancing that I enjoyed more than the competition video, which left me a little lukewarm (but most salsa comps do, to be honest):

    Ballroom mambo really looks nothing like what even the top salsa competitive dancers do, and I say that with very little judgment.. it's simply different stylistically, and the level of training is radically different, and the judging is different and so on... the world mambo champions (dancesport) are here:

    dancing the routine they won the title with at Miami last year.

    And on Dancing with the Stars:
  7. englezul

    englezul New Member

    No it's not. If you're not a beginner and have your stuff down slow music will not raise any problems. Only beginners or people that lack the skill find slow music hard because they can't sustain the entire range of motion. So they will try to chop it, shorten it, just dance on destination points not in between them, lose centre because they can't move from the core, arrive early and then pause while waiting to catch up with the beat, not flowing, etc. So it's not so much that they can't interpret it. They just can't get their stuff handled enough to allow them to be in the music and interpret it. When you have the skills interpreting music is not hard! You just do whatever you have in your head. Not the case here.

    Remember these guys are professionals, have been dancing for a long long period of time. They do not have this problem. If you think they choose fast music because it was easier to perform haven't had a good breakfast this morning.

    I am not impressed by the speed of the music. I am impressed by how well they manage to do extremely complicated turn patters and not fall off beat, and not look awkward, and not lose or weaken the connection (the lead - follow body/frame connection) on very fast music. The distance between them is constant, hands always meet at the fingers, they never fall off center (1. their personal gravity centre 2. the couple's gravity centre) just flows man. That's a direct proof of their skill. If you add in the fact that they are performing lifts, dips, and aerials too, and the entrance, execution, and resolution are still smooth, still on time, and still perfectly connected with the rest of the dance there is no doubt about the high level of these dancers.

    Is this what validates the quality of their performance?

    The quality of their performance is given by alot of factors: flawless technique, great body movement, coreography, costumes, etc!!! Again, instead of arguing with me on the forum, watch some of the performances at the World Salsa Championships finals from last year. The performances in themselves should atest to their quality. No other reasons, just watch them. If you don't see it watch them again until you do.

    Look. List those people that you call champions, research how they got that title and compare it to this contest. Remember that in my post I made it clear that I'm only talking about this specific contest which is organized very well and has couples participating from all over the world who have to go through several elimination rounds. To my knowledge there is no other contest of this magnitude and strict rigor. Like I said, read up on it! I think you're arguing here because you're bored. Which is the very reason I do it, along with the fact that I think you're out on a limb :).
  8. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member


    looked at both-- sorry-- but I think the miami couple -- especially the girl-- had more polish more " sabor ", was better in musical intepretation and, rythmically and tech. far superior. Did,nt look one bit b/room-- rehearsed --yes,-- but thats what top flight comps are about, as we all know. In a way it was like apples and oranges first no polish whatsover, not smooth , clever tricks, but that does not impress me . the partnership in the mambo was as solid as a rock, where as the girl in the other, sometimes looked a little " lost ".-- Would luv to see them both on the floor at the same time , with a few more that i know
  9. samina

    samina Well-Known Member

    um... it's the same couple in both vids, TT. :)
    if you're talking about alemana's post, that is...

    have seen this couple perform -- they are wonderful. i really enjoy watching them!
  10. yippee1999

    yippee1999 Member

    I'd never seen that Joanna woman before. I love her form... the way she carries herself.... moves her arms etc.!! I think it's spectacular.
  11. alemana

    alemana New Member

    both she and emmanuel teach at Stepping Out.

    Of the videos that I posted, the first was of the salsa guy Oliver. The second two were the same couple doing ballroom mambo, once in competition and again a modified version of that same routine for Dancing with the Stars.
  12. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member


    Number one -- please dont preach to me about dance -- I was dancing and teaching mambo/ salsa ( and a whole slew of other dances ) before you were born !!-- And have trained numerous pros. - you missed the whole point about slow-- It is always difficult to interpret slower music, any coach will state that. In the body of your statement, you implied that speed was a major factor-- yes -- if you want to look like you are constantly running and performing tricks !!-- also-- in context-- this is not salsa /mambo-- its performance art , . It falls into the theater arts category of dance . And you still did not tell me who the organisers are . p.s.-- this is not about the skills of the performers, its about claiming rights of the organisers , that i bring into question .
  13. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member


    Sorry if i confused you-- I meant the guy she liked who freestyled as opposed to the guy in Miami at the champ. event. ( by the way, another world champ !! )
  14. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member


    Now I,m REALLY confused !-- the 1st vid-- freestyle in a club ?-- is the same guy who danced in Miami ?
  15. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member


    Watched all 3 again-- i know the miami guy and the dwts. guy is the same one---his miami performance was much better staged, but still entertaining. would have to say on reflection, its not quite " latino " enough , for my style and taste . So, neither really reflect the more subtle qualities that I like to see and prefer to dance. BUT-- thats showbiz !!
  16. englezul

    englezul New Member

    That's a long time, even admiting that I might be the youngest one on this forum. And the most high spirited :evil: . So are you as good as these guys?

    You didn't make any point about that. All you did was state an opinion that it's ALWAYS more difficult to interpret. Which I think it's BS. I certainly don't think so, and don't experience that. So you have yet to make a point about why that is. You make it, and I'll make sure I don't miss it.

    What you write is like saying making music is hard when you can't even recognize the notes by ear. All the work is aquiring and perfecting that skill because the rest is just playing the notes you hear in your head. Get that and you compose a dozen songs a day. Unless you're one of those guys like in American Idol that are completely deluded about their talents.

    I'm sorry but if after having watched that performance all you could think of it was that it looked like a "constant run for tricks" you're missing something rather fundamental. It's okay not to be very fond of their particular style but you have to give it to them they're amazing dancers.

    Performance art/Mambo/Salsa or whatever you want to call it is dust in eyes These are just words. It's not like the dancers lose their ability to put on a mean dance if you consider what they're doing is performance art as oposed to mambo. They are in fact dancing on salsa music. And they can do it both on and off the stage.

    I'm sure you could find the organizers listed on the official website which you could have found with very little effort if you were really that much interested: .
  17. samina

    samina Well-Known Member

    she was a friend of mine's first teacher, and she used to teach at a studio where my instructor used to teach. it's such a small dance world out there, isn't it...

    she is very beautiful, but also a wonderfully natural dancer. not something i excel at... i'm better at more controlled movement
  18. I feel the same! They are great performers and certainly they master all the techniques. And they show more sabor than many other professional mambo dancers in the pro competitions that I watched. (Most of them have no sabor IMO and not much "feel" for the music.) However, it is not the Latino "real thing" for me.

    Luda (Oliver's partner) is a great dancer. But she, too, lacks these typical subtle sexy Latin moves that make a salsa/mambo look real Latino. She tries to do styling with her free arm but often her hand just "hangs" there and that never looks good. I noticed that because I often have the exact same problem, don't know what to do with that hand. Wouldn't he look great with Sheila as a partner:
    They both might be better off switching partners (Oliver and Sheila, I mean) in order to look even better.
  19. samina

    samina Well-Known Member

    yep, i figured i'd made a mistake from alemana's post... sorry! :)
  20. englezul

    englezul New Member

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