Salsa > Dancing? Or Puppetmaster Pulling Strings?

Discussion in 'Salsa' started by SalsaTO, Dec 4, 2006.

  1. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member


    Why?-- because ladies have different perspectives than do men , and I was interested in what they have to say .
  2. englezul

    englezul New Member

    Hahaha! This is spot on. A couple of weeks ago, I had just gotten to a club, was changing my shoes, when a stranger approached me asking me a casual "How's your salsa going?". We make some small chit chat after which he asks me looking at this guy who was just dancing in front of us and was absolutely terrible "So are you as good as him?" with somewhat of an appreciation air to it. I couldn't help but think "I hope to God not" but I replied instead "something like that" and went in my business.

    Haha, if you think Latinos look natural when dancing visit me one weekend, I'll show you a plethora that are not even close to looking like they're dancing so much the less natural.

    I think what it actually means is that there are some powerful misconceptions in relation to being latino and how one's latino DNA affects how one is dancing. Most of these are drawn because you get a whole bunch of people who cannot tell the difference between causation and correlation and make them come up with theories about who are the hottest dancers :).

    And I totally disagree about ballroom. It's just that you have to GET it first.

    Yeah, a guy can tell. Although I'd use 'cool' or 'masculine' (in the case of balroom dancers) instead of 'hot'. A guy doesn't have to be hot he's got to be a man first, and cool later. :cool:
  3. borikensalsero

    borikensalsero Moderator

    Gosh I go away for a couple of days and the world falls over...

    It is a judgment on the eye of the beholder when the same language isn't spoken. If you don't know Spanish and I prose the most of beautiful of essays you'll get nothing from it. But, if you speak the language, then meaning tells the story. Even if I do not like what's written I can understand its meaning. There must be more than literal translation and understanding of, which is where most opponents of Sabor reside, hence, when they judge Sabor they judge it the only way they can; by their scrutiny of some outside force which has meaning to them.

    When a person possesses Sabor it isn’t questioned, it can’t be questioned. Everyone that knows Sabor accepts it! The debate arrives when execution is questioned. Which is the deepest, here members have stressed.

    It won't matter if we post a hundred videos with Sabor in the dancers, if the viewer has no idea what to look for, he/she will never make any sense of the words of those who identify it.

    In all, NO Sabor is not subjective; it has nothing to do with what we think of it. It is subjective only to the person that doesn't know how to identify it. Hence, the disagreement of what it is.

    I stress LOVE because it is the camp of SABOR; an essence. Love can not be questioned. However, we can be subjective to the actions a person takes to demonstrate Love. Then and only then, based on our immediate knowledge of Love, can we judge what we think LOVE is. But all we are doing is saying that -- these are the physical actions that a person must make for me to say that the person Loves”.

    We can not scrutinize love itself, what we can, are the actions of the person. This is the same argument we have over Sabor in this thread; people look at actions of dancers, judge them, then think Sabor is subjective to their knowledge. That's why it is vital to divide Sabor from Actions. If we can not, then all we’ll ever speak about is actions, never realizing that all we judge is those actions and not Sabor.

    This is not like saying, wow, he is a great kiss, that’s a lot of love. Even a bad kisser can show love. As long as we keep thinking that Sabor is dependant on an outside force, we’ll think it is subjective.
  4. saludas

    saludas New Member

    the language is 'dance'.

    one relevant quote from isadora Duncan: "Explain my dancing? if I could explain it, then I wouldn't need to dance it"....
  5. alemana

    alemana New Member

  6. borikensalsero

    borikensalsero Moderator

  7. alemana

    alemana New Member

  8. SalsaManiac

    SalsaManiac New Member

  9. alemana

    alemana New Member

    cache isn't that big, actually....
  10. baile

    baile New Member

    I think if you read my post carefully, you'll see that you're disagreeing unnecessarily. There, I wrote that these are generalities that don't have to be true. (MEANING: of course there are exceptions.)
  11. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member


    Desculpame , mi falta, need to get these d... glasses fixed !!
  12. baile

    baile New Member

    Non sequitur conclusions disguised as critical analyses are a pain in the but to shovel through. I'll have to address this one later, when I have more patience. Real quick: "Two of the top ballet dancers in this century (Jose Limon and Edward Villega) are Latin, for instance." What does this prove and why are you trying to prove it?
  13. noobster

    noobster Member

    Well, for that particular move, you pretty much have to get your arm out of the way somehow, don't you? Up to you how you want to do it, but there's a limit to how many things you can do with it if you are coming back into closed position. (Sure, you can halo or thread-the-needle or hair-flip or whatever, but the point is, you have to clear the arm.)

    I'm still not up to the point where I want to try the more formalized 'styling' (too busy for anything but treading water in salsa right now), but it seems like it would be useful to learn how to put a little more grace into movements that are anyway required in order for the mechanics of the dance to work.
  14. baile

    baile New Member

    Who's doing this and why are you telling us what's inappropriate in the U.S. or anywhere for that matter? Who's racist?
  15. baile

    baile New Member

    Sure. There are loads of hot Hip Hop dancers, folklore dancers (OMG-those Aztecan principes son super caliente!), tango, jazz, soca, there are even a couple hot ballet dancers. But ballroom dancers? I've tried to find videos of hot guys and have failed. Any suggestions?

    I have to qualify this by admitting a couple of things about myself and who I would deem hot: no pretense, no show (I am not into hardcore body builders for instance), they have to have substance, soul, and above all: Sabor! Oh yeah, they can't appear to have a steel pole supporting their spine when they dance.
  16. saludas

    saludas New Member

    This supports my mention that ethnicity and location do not determine dance ability, preference, or style, in the previous paragraph.
  17. baile

    baile New Member

    We may have different meanings of hot, like we may have different meanings for sabor. Actually I'm sure you and I have very different meanings. Let say, there's hot and there's HOT. Sure, I could look at a female dancer and say "she's hot", but I couldn't look at her and say, "she's HOT". There's a sexual tone that to the latter that I couldn't even begin to put into words that you would understand (again, much like the meaning of sabor).
  18. englezul

    englezul New Member

    Actually that's not a non-sequitur because it does follow. His/her point was that ability to dance and the look of one's dancing is not dependent on their ethnicity. And that this 'latino' issue is just dust in eyes and has no relevance on the real characteristics of one's dance. To illustrate he/she gave you an example of two latinos that are top ballet dancers, a style very remote from salsa. This in the context where they not taking heat for their non-european ethnicity or the lack of a native experience regarding the european culture. Instead they are accepted as top ballet dancers. Which, to the point of the original post, shows a radical oposition to the pervasive mentality that when it comes to salsa if you're not latino then you just don't have what it takes ; which is a huge generalization vocally supported by some with examples of one or two people in the scene who have achieved a high level of skill and by chance are latino.

    So this is not trying to prove anything, just to make a point. You cannot prove reality. Reality just is.
  19. baile

    baile New Member

    What's there to "get" about ballroom, if I don't like it? Do you think if I dance like that, I'll "Get it" and therefore like it? I think it's stiff, they need to learn to relax their bodies and understand the music, they don't have sabor, and they're NOT hot. What more do I need to get? If you or someone out there have some video examples that can help me "get it", please pass them along.

    BTW, cool and masculine does not = HOT. Again, it's like trying to "explain" sabor to you.
  20. baile

    baile New Member

    Borinquen de verdad? Even your writing has sabor. Anyone who doesn't get it and therefore probably doesn't have it, needs to print this post and meditate on it before they dance. Me, I'm going to print it out because I think I'm in love...

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