Tango Argentino > Dancing Tango to Milonga and Vals

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by Hock Siew, Nov 9, 2011.

  1. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    I frequently hear 6/8. I've no idea how it was notated, though. It makes more sense, to me, to feel a 'compound' metre, where it is equally valid to feel stress falling on a slow 1 & 2, rather than a quick 123 456.
     
  2. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    We had a thread on the signature of old rhythmic tangos, too. Penned in 2/4 but felt as 4/4. Cannot find it any more.
     
  3. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    And I finally found some thing that satisfied me regarding "canter rhythm" from 1922 text "Dancing Made Easy'.

    The subject is "Canter Waltz".

    This dance is walking to waltz time but walking most quietly and gracefully. There are two steps to the three counts of music. Step forward on 1 and make the second step between the 2 and 3 count. Give the first step the accent, although the steps are almost of the same value. See Diagram 1. It may, perhaps, help the student practising alone with the aid of the victrola to count 1-&, 2-&, 3-&, making the second step on the second &, until able to do the step smoothly.

    http://www.ballroomdancertips.com/ballroomdancertips10.php

    Cause, you know, I always felt I'm stepping on 1 and 3 when I do it.

    BTW - same text is on line at this url
    http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/musdi:@field(DOCID+@lit(musdi048))
     
  4. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    You get very much the same feeling when you subdivide 2 slow or 4 quick beats into 3 using 3:3:2 timing, so popular in early rhythmic tango and milonga.
     
  5. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    here's a rather nice example, though I cant say if the music is VW

    [yt]YcaYFLeKwJA[/yt]
     
  6. Subliminal

    Subliminal Well-Known Member

    As I've mentioned in other vals threads, hitting the 1 and the 2 then holding the 3 creates a feeling of suspension which can be interesting for waltz style/feeling.

    Some orchestras will emphasize the 2 as well, which is even better when you hit it.
     
  7. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Are fleckerls the VW thingies that are remarkably similar to giros? Back-side-forward-side-forward or somethng like that? I seem to remember, ages ago when I was making a stupid attempt at Standard, being introduced to fleckerls (or something) and not being able to break the automatic habit of doing a giro instead. Gave me no end of fits.

    I'd dance with you if you switched to VW for a few bars! :) It's always fun to mix things up. So long as you didn't switch holds on me. Oh...and I can't feel Standard weight changes. (I tune them out.)
     
  8. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

  9. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    They include crossing steps, both in front and behind, and rotate alarmingly quickly: two full turns over six steps. In the video clip posted by BTM, Mirko & Alessia dance them from about 0:37. Fleckerls are very hard to dance: it was a pity they chose such awful music! Giros are rather easier to do.
     
  10. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canter_rhythm

    Also refers to AT and dancing on 1&2 only as a form of canter rhythm.
     
  11. bastet

    bastet Active Member

    Actually, thisis how I was generally taught vals timing. Use 12-1 for a substitute for qqs timing. The 1-31 is used less, most of thime it gets used is at the very end of a phrase or song because a lot of vals ends as 1-31, but in general during the musical phrase itself, it seems to make more sense to use 12-1 for movements that you would have used qqs for in tango. Just mentally go over the footwork for ocho cortado and the movement makes a lot more sense done 12-1 than 1-31. Not to say it can't be done, but if you review the ladies footwork it is more comfortably led as 12-1, IMO, at least.
     
  12. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    What I'm counting in this video is her doing cruzadas using 1-31. Her molinets (some of them) seem to also be on 3,1 rather than on 1,2

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgJS7UYeBbE
     
  13. Subliminal

    Subliminal Well-Known Member

    That song has a VERY strong 3-1 emphasis. I'm not sure what it proves other than both of them are very musical. ;)

    ETA: One of the "advanced" exercises one of my teachers gave me was to lead a 1-2 and a 3-1 timing in the right turn (close embrace). With an advanced follower, it's more about letting her feel the timing you are going for. For the original poster, this is something to work toward.
     
  14. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    My opinions on many of the things in this thread are closest to OpenDoor and UKDancer.

    The first thing I'll say is that while the steps is vals are more or less the same as in tango, the emotion, feel, or whatever you want to call it, is quite different from tango, thus I don't consider them the same.

    As for the rhythm of Vals, I actually feel it as 12/8 (somewhat similar to how I feel tango in groups of 4 slow beats). It's basically two 6/8 measures joined together.

    In vals the 1 beat is the slow beat, but there are two quick beats (2 & 3) in between each slow beat.

    123 123 123 123

    or if you count on the slow beats, the way that I do (12/8 time, or 4 triplets)
    123 223 323 423


    There are three main options for using the quick beats:
    1) As already has been mentioned, use the 2 beat and skip the 3 beat.
    ex: 12- 1-- 12- 1--
    (somewhat similar to quick-quick-slow in tango)

    2) Another option pretty much as common is to use the 3 beat and skip the 2 beat.
    ex: 1-3 1-- 1-3 1--
    (again, somewhat similar to quick-quick-slow in tango)

    3) use the 2 and the 3 beat.
    ex: 123 1-- 123 1--
    (No good comparison to a tango rhythm)


    I use all 3 of these (depending on my mood), but the 1st and 2nd options I use way more than the 3rd one.
     
  15. Subliminal

    Subliminal Well-Known Member

    Well said.

    Oh, that just reminded me! I remember a beginner pattern I learned in a class to help feel vals phrasing. It's kind of like...

    123 223 323 423

    So... daaahhh daaahhh daah, da daaaa. Daaahhh daaahhh daah, da daaaa. etc.
     
  16. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    The 1 beat is normally stronger, more emphatic, but it is not slower than the other beats. All beats have the same duration.

    As I think and observe:

    1) Only dance on 1: most common.
    2) 1-3: for me it's also common, I'll have to notice if it's the same for other leaders.
    3)123: I use it some times, and I think other leaders do also.
    4) 12-: I rarely do it and I rarely notice other leaders doing it.
     
  17. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    I'm having some trouble counting your As and Hs.
     
  18. Subliminal

    Subliminal Well-Known Member

    Steps fall on these beats:

    One, one, one three one. Repeat.
     
  19. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    On the giros; after the back pivot and step; it is possible to do the subsequent side-forward to arrive on the forward on the 1; so its 2-1 or 3-1
     
  20. Hock Siew

    Hock Siew New Member

    Thanks for your post. I`m sorry I didn`t make it clear what I was saying. I am actually trying to understand and somehow achieve what you are describing for the Vals and Milonga and also what Opendoor said. I think I still have someway to go yet. However, thanks for your encouragement! I will keep trying :)
     

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