Tango Argentino > Dancing Tango to Milonga and Vals

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by Hock Siew, Nov 9, 2011.

  1. chanchan

    chanchan Member

    It is a well known tango. You can find the score on TodoTango.
    Of course Pereya knew what he was doing. Here you can find some information about him.
    If you listen to D'Arienzo's version you will probably have no doubts that this is a tango.
    I cited this video to show that every orchestra can give a different feel to the same piece.
    The piece is written as 2/4. The feel (in the video that I cited) is actually 2/4.
    The rhytm is clearly the habanera, as usual in tangos before 1920. In fact this piece was written in 1916.

    Basically it is milonga with "cortes y quebradas".
    Probably Orillero is the best term if we really want to give a name to this style of dance, but this is not the point.
    The point is the "feel" of the dance. I hope you admit this feel reflects the feel of the music. Which is, believe it or not, a tango.
  2. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    OK. So. If I'm understanding you correctly, your point is that vals, aka tango waltz, is not actually a waltz because it has nothing in common with other waltes. (I assume you mean ballroom waltz?) Is that your point?

    IF that is your point, then...are you for real, or are you just trolling? Vals, aka tango waltz, is one of the body of Argentine Tango dances. As such, it uses AT steps and hold and sensibilities. It is danced to AT music in 3/4 or 6/8 (or perhaps 12/8) music that has a feeling of 3, although dancing to "alternative" or "modern" music with a feeling of 3 has been known to happen. It is differentiated from other AT dances (milonga, tango) in the style it is given--as I said before, it tends to be danced with fewer pauses, and the movements are often circular.

    Given this definition, of course it does not use other waltz steps or holds or whatever else. It is Argentine Tango, first and foremost. I could just as easily say that other waltzes are not true waltzes, because they have nothing in common with vals. Waltz is just the English word for vals, and we know what vals looks like, and obviously waltzes are not the same thing so they can't be called the same thing. The argument is ridiculous, no matter which direction you're taking the comparison.

    Well, if you're going to use Piazzola as an example, there's a reason why a lot of people don't even consider his music to be tango. Just sayin'. That said, I don't hear the 3:3:2 rhythm in those at all. I just don't.

    Interesting. You know, I've never noticed the habanera rhythm in those pieces before. To my ear, they are so clearly tango that it just never registered as having that quality. The rhythm is there, in the background, but I've never thought of it as being a central, defining rhythm.
  3. DerekWeb

    DerekWeb Well-Known Member

    Peaches. Off topic, but can you explain 3:3:2 rhythm in formal musical terms, meter and quarter/half notes etc.? Thanks.
  4. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Hope you´ve got own ears and own concepts to analyze, too ?!
  5. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

  6. chanchan

    chanchan Member

    Argentine Tango is quite a free and improvised dance: you don't have stuck on a fixed set of figures. Nothing prevents you from taking some sequence copied or inspired to waltz, if you manage to lead and follow it with the technique of Argentine Tango, with improvisation and musicality. But this is not strictly required to dance Tango Vals: dancing Tango Vals doesn't mean mixing Tango and Vals (Waltz).
    Almost every country has its style of waltz and obviously I don't know all of them. Most of them, although looking quite different from the original Waltz derived from Waltz, and still have a common basis: similar kind of turns and the same rhythm for the steps (stepping on every beat). In this case, we can say they are styles of waltz, or at least evolutions of waltz. This in not the case of Tango Vals.
    Are you really among them?
    If you are, you can listen to the second example, which is by Pugliese.
    If you don't consider Pugliese's music to be tango, please give me your definition of tango and I'll try to look if I find some 3:3:2.
    You probably didn't notice it because most orchestras often hide it.
  7. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member


    No, it doesn't. It means dancing Argentine Tango, using the body of AT steps, with AT technique, with AT hold (whichever variety you prefer) to (usually) vals music, hopefully with certain characteristics (more continual movement, more circular movement). Yes, you can take other sequences from your so-called "real waltzes" and merge them into AT; you can blend the two. So what? Vals, as it is understood in this forum, is AT danced to AT vals music, with vals styling. What is the hang-up with this?!

    Because it is tango.

    Listen, do you even dance AT? Seriously...are you just trolling? Because this is getting rather ridiculous. OK, fine, it's not a real waltz. Who bloody cares? It's tango vals. If you don't like the terminology, fine. Can't help you there, because the rest of the AT community has no problem understanding what vals/tango waltz means--we recognize it, we dance it. (Although who made you the arbiter of what qualifies to be labeled as what is beyond me.)

    Shrug. Depends on the piece of music. Some is very tango-able, others are not. IMO, he crossed genres.

    I'm not defining squat at this point. I know what tango music is, I don't need to be educated in that regard. I'm not saying 3:3:2 isn't in the second one, I'm saying I don't hear it.

    Or, because I don't think of it in that way. Yeah, it's there, but not in the sense that I tend to hear it in milongas. I certainly don't feel it in those pieces--to me, they just have an altogether different feel. Shrug.
  8. chanchan

    chanchan Member

    But if i "feel" that a song is a milonga, and the all best tango musicians agree that it is a tango, then I try to understand the reason why my "feel" failed.
  9. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Ok, my only concern was that black and white often arent´t the alternatives. And that the so-called "best" appear to be deeply involed (lets say enmeshed) in the power games of fashion and commerce of that time. And by the way, for me argentinians don´t have the interpretational sovereignty in this field.
  10. DerekWeb

    DerekWeb Well-Known Member

    Thanks opendoor. I lost that bookmark in a disk crash.
  11. chanchan

    chanchan Member

    Nothing, I perfectly agree.
    The same is for me.
    I think that libertango can be considered tango.
    Althought its strong 3:3:2 rhythm can create difficulties to some dancers.
  12. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    Mea culpa.

    Not promoting it, just using it.
  13. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    I have seen recreations of how "waltz" has been danced in by gone days. It is quite different than how "ballroom" waltz is danced today. But, then, again in days gone by, there were serveral to many versions of waltz done in the American hinterlands as documented by Llyod Shaw. "Pursuit Waltz", and Spanish Waltz" are two that come to mind.

    Although AT was where I learned about only stepping on two beats per measure to "waltz" music, it turned out that "Canter rhythm" has been taught as something you can do to waltz early in the 20th century. "Canter Waltz" was one of them.

    So, given the variety of how to dance to waltz music, yeah, people dance "vals" to waltzes played by tango musicians.
  14. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    Divide a 4/4 measure into 8 eighth notes (12345678 ). Then emphasize the 1, 4, & 7 beats (123 456 78 ).
    123 456 78
    3 - 3 - 2
  15. rain_dog

    rain_dog Active Member

    For another example of this, look up 'Milonga Triste' performed by Hugo Diaz (it's on you tube). The guitar plays continuous eighth notes but emphasizes 1, 4 and 7.
  16. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the keywords, Steve. Unfortunately I am lacking video clips of these dances. Only found on YT:

    Spanish Waltz http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0VSc7ttXp4
    unspecified vintage waltz http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky3XMDDRdJw
    Saint Bernard's waltz http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoJipuJwxs0
    Viennese Waltz http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrvh9fX5ilQ
    Five-Step Waltz http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75FNd0PpWo8
    (American) Scottish http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BshYzRtlWs

    Vals Peruvano http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpdfH3a-b2w
    Chamamé de Corrientes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uS4qIv7kxE
  17. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

  18. salthepal

    salthepal New Member

    It very much depends on the leader. 12- is a lot easier for me, if I'm just counting beats without listening to music. Of course, most times it's easy to pick up either when the music suggests it.
  19. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    Why would anyone count beats without listening to the music? What for?

    I only ever suggested 12-1 as a default pattern for syncopation for the inexperienced, but would only do it where the music suggested it was appropriate.

    Stylistically, one of the reasons why the music suggests a 12- accent is frequently to do with the timing of the three beats within the bar, rather than the presence of any clear and explicit accent on count 2. It is typical for musicians to play the waltz rhythm with a slight elongation of the second beat, landing the third slightly late, and this produces a form of implied accent, and something very close to the canter timing mentioned here previously. This is by no means restricted to vals, but seems to be of general application, and can be heard most clearly in orchestras that play Viennese Waltz as concert music.
  20. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    See, and I listen to the music and think, "Why would anyone count beats who's listening to the music?" There's just so much there...it's sad to get restricted to thinking about the actual beats.

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