General Dance Discussion > Definitive video of why children shouldn't be at dances

Discussion in 'General Dance Discussion' started by jon, Sep 26, 2004.

  1. cocodrilo

    cocodrilo New Member

    :lol: You sound like a fantastic & dedicated mother! Of course you should have more kids if you want them! :D
     
  2. DancingMommy

    DancingMommy Active Member

    Thanks. Balancing life isn't easy, but after spending 3 weeks in Indonesia, my perspective has REALLY changed. I'm hoping to keep what I got while I was there.

    Asia is a TOTALLY different place than the US and the mentality is so different especially when it comes to priorities.
     
  3. saludas

    saludas New Member

    Sorry to jump in so late in this discussion - and sorry to actually go BACK to what the topic was about originally!!

    I think that the parent's sense of 'entitlement' is what makes having young kids around adult-oriented activities such a nightmare. It's the same entitlement that people seem to have when on a cell phone in their SUV, not using turn sugnals changing lanes, and then give you the finger when you swerve out of their way and honk.

    Ok, stand back - here's my rant...

    Hey, you are living in MY world, not just yours... you should expect me to be courteous and friendly, and so should you, Mom. I won't kick your kids if you respect MY space. I expect consideration and sensitivity from you as much as you expect it from me. That means preparing the kids for the interaction with adults and teaching them respect for the adult's space.

    And, no, your kids are NOT cute when they act out - and it's not up to me to 'tolerate' it. You should do your kid thing out of my range of hearing. And not expect ME to become part of their 'learning experience'. Take your ADD-acting sibling AWAY from others and respect THEIR space.

    And please, don't look at me like I am supposed to be HAPPY there are kids around - or expect me to be happy when they change the dynamic of the event (usually to slow it down and make it more G-rated) and make me consider my actions (will I offend the kids?).


    And finally, back off - I have 2 kids myself -
     
  4. saludas

    saludas New Member

    Ok, sorry for the previous rant - too much caffiene, I suppose - and hope I didn't offend. But the sentiment is real.......
     
  5. DancingMommy

    DancingMommy Active Member

    I am totally with you on this.

    And while we are at it...

    Don't give me dirty looks if I choose to discipline my child the way *I* see fit. You don't live with my child 24/7 like I do... You don't know their personality or needs like me. You can't tell when my child is acting out or just plain acting. And don't try giving my child candy or some other bribe while I'm in the process of dealing with a meltdown. You aren't helping - BELIEVE ME!

    /end rant

    :shock:
     
  6. Larinda McRaven

    Larinda McRaven Site Moderator Staff Member

    Sorry to talk about dogs again but this is as close as I can get right now.

    Raising Isabelle has been a community effort at the studios I am in each week, all three of them. Every single person that has walked in the door has hand a hand in molding her into the fabulously well behaved and smart dog she is today.

    However, it is difficult when someone elses idea of what to do is different than mine. As DancingMommy said, I have to live with Isabelle. I am responsible for her actions and I have to deal with a dog that has become a beggar because someone insited on treating her with people food when I have a no people food policy. And when I ask you "Are you feeding her people food?" and you say "No, just lletting her lick the plate..." You make it very uncomfortable for the next person she steals food from, actually you make it uncomfortable for ME when she steals food, and then uncomfortable for HER because her bottom will get swatted. We have fortunatley gotten over that bump in the road.

    Definaltey the parent should have the final say and everyone around should respect that. Even if we don't agree and think they are too harsh or too soft.
     
  7. DancingMommy

    DancingMommy Active Member

  8. DanceAm

    DanceAm New Member

    Until this thread, I never told anyone they should have kids or explained any reasons to have them. And I if you don't want kids, then I don't want you to have them, there are actually too many unwanted children already. Much better to decide before you have them that you don't want them than after.

    However, what really got me going was the people with kids are no fun. I am 42, my son is 19 and on his own. My son was 14 when when my wife and I started dancing seriously and he was pretty much able to take care of himself. Now that he is starting his adult life, making his own decisions, my wife and I are free to do whatever we please, and we still feel young enough to do just about anything. We have been with our jobs for a long time and now have a lot of Vacation time to use during the year and we have the money to do it. Now most of my friends and co-workers are starting to expand their families and they have settled down. They are where I was many years ago. People actually think we are a childless couple because we are out together, having fun, going on vacations by ourselves. I don't regret having a baby in my early 20's, back then I had the energy to build a career and had a wonderful family to spend time with. We did a lot of travelling early in our marriage because I was in the service, stationed in Europe for many years and had the opportunity to see much of Europe. Having 30 days of vacation in the service was actually another blessing. Sometimes it was a little tougher with our son along, but like I said, I had the energy to do it all. They do have baby sitters in Europe, actually very good ones. We didn't go out every night, but I have found bars and dance clubs are the same on both sides of the ocean, so if you've seen one you've seen them all.

    But back to the misconception by many that my wife and I are childless, I don't know why so many people are interested in commenting on what they perceive are our choices. We go out during with week with our dance friends and people who meet us ask us if we have children. They are surprised that we have a grown son, comment on how we don't look our age then proceed to ask us if we plan on having any more. Are you kidding? So I empathize with those of you that are constantly barraged with questions and statements about having kids. I don't know why I would want to start over again, but I have no regrets on my decisions. My wife and I wanted a child, we actually wanted more but there were issues, so we were blessed with one. With new medical technology, we could have more now, if we wanted to.

    I feel I am spending 80 years on this earth but it could be cut short at any time. That is a lot of years to expect and I want to experience everything life has to offer. My choices of who I married, having a child, building a career and at 40 still young enough to make all new decisions. I could start a new career, have another child, travel, move to a resort living community and golf every evening, all of these things are my choices again.

    So why I get so upset with "people with kids are no fun" or "married people are no fun", that is because many think people like my wife and I don't have kids or are married. How could a couple that has so much fun have kids? Let's just say that I've been a little lucky but I have enjoyed my life and my decisions. Just last night my wife and I went to a local dance bar and had a great time. We met new people and strangely enough met some past aquaintences. We had fun out on the dance floor, laughed while we weren't dancing and saw many people much younger than us and likely single with very bored looks on their faces. I don't think of anything I did as a sacrifice. So rationalize all you want about your decisions to marry or have kids, I really don't care. I don't think you're selfish, everyone makes their own decisions. Defend yours all you want and as for the family or church getting on your case about it, c'mon, plu-eeez. Family and the church will get on your case whether you have kids or get married or not. If you do get married, they both push for kids, if you have kids, they want to tell you how to raise them. Churches grow their attendance by members having kids and somehow they think that gives them license to tell you what you should do, and family members always want to tell you how to live your life, that will never change.

    But if the fight is between you and me, if you agree not to generalize that people with kids are no fun, I won't accuse you of being selfish.

    This is not aimed at anyone in particular. Just a personal rant.
     
  9. saludas

    saludas New Member

    A 19 year old is not the 'kid' I am talking about!! That's a young adult.

    It's the folks with 6 year olds who let them go screaming through the store, or the 2 year old that balls uncontrollably in the restaurant....
     
  10. Asiatias

    Asiatias New Member

    Exactly,

    I know that at a certain age supervised or not, the studio is not going to be safe for the children (and could hurt other people if caught at the wrong moment running across the floor). Unless the child is handcuff to a chair, which I must say would not be very healthy for the kid either lol, this could be very dangerous.

    You could be a great parent but all the activity is way to enticing.

    I know that some kids are great in the studio and enjoy watching and participating.

    One of our instructors used to teach two 10yr olds that were a hit at the parties. They were very courteous and polite, and would dance in little sections of the dance floor during the evening.

    The parents need to make wise decisions weather their kid is mature enough for this atmosphere.
     
  11. Asiatias

    Asiatias New Member

    Oh and by the way...I have a doberman that goes anywhere he can with me!

    I used to take him to work with me everyday. (I miss that). Sometimes people would ask for him before me!

    If everyone likes Isabelle, and shes better behaved than a lot of humans, why not? :D
     
  12. DanceAm

    DanceAm New Member

    He wasn't always 19. My wife screamed at the delivery like he was 19, but he was born normal size, just like everyone else and had to grow up one day at a time.

    I hear more whining and crying from ladies without a dance partner than I do kids screaming and crying in a store or restaurant. I hear more whining and crying about how expensive dance is. I hear a heck of a lot of whining and crying about how unfair the judging is at comps. Let's face it, those 6 year olds are just upset about something and when they grow up, they become upset about something else, let's hope they don't become dancers and ruin the studio with negative talk. Surely no one hears any whining about not enough men at a social dance. But I don't think anyone whining and crying about dance issues should be kept out of public no more than I think anyone under 6 should be kept out of public view and sound. Yeah, that whining about not enough guys dancing gets real annoying. Kids have their good days and bad days, some are more controlled than others. I don't necessarily enjoy the sound of a crying child or one that screams, but I don't need them locked up in a soundproof room everytime they make a noise I don't like. I can't say that in a restaurant I ever asked to be moved when noisy children were near, I think I just put up with it just like I put up with the same gripes everyone has in a dance studio.

    How intolerant everyone seems to be? Sheesh.

    We will just duct tape the jaws shut of every unruly child to appease those who can't stand it. But I want to do the same to everyone else who whines about dance partners. Pretty soon we will all have our jaws locked tight by duct tape and no one will bother anyone anymore.
     
  13. foursquare

    foursquare New Member

    Thanks, DanceAm, this is JUST the post I was trying to formulate in my head. Well done and well said.

    Are there bad parents who should keep their kids on a tighter leash? Of course. But I don't think they're as numerous as these posts would have one believe.

    Can kids be irritating even under the best of circumstances? Yes... but so can you.

    My daughter is out in public with me, be it restaurant, dance, movie or WHATEVER, because that is how she learns to be a part of a society. Does she talk too much at a movie before I calmly explain we have to talk after the movie because other people are watching? Of course. And did it bother you that we had that little 20 second exchange in the seats in front of you? Sure it did. You'll just have to live with it.

    As parents, we do our best, short of slugging our children at the instant of misbehaving, to teach our children how to be around and interact with other people. To do that, they have to be around other people. That you have to overhear the learning process and waste a half minute of your life being irked is not something I'm particularly concerned about. Lighten up.

    foursquare

     
  14. saludas

    saludas New Member

    I ALWAYS ask to be moved - or rather that the kids be moved. We share the same space, and it is unfair that my dinner be spoiled becasue a parent has no clue that others do NOT care if their child is reprimanded, taught, or otherwise. Plus, unless the parent wants to pay me for the dinner, I feel that parft of the package I get when in a restaurant is to not be bothered by the other patrons.

    Would YOU be happy if an adjoining table shouted and screamed all through dinner?

    And actually, those 20 seconds are just as precious to me as they are to you.
     
  15. DancingMommy

    DancingMommy Active Member

    You are inside my head... NOW GET OUT!!! LOL

    And I'll go you one better...

    If you see me lose my temper with my child, don't assume I'm a child-beating abusive maniac. Maybe I just haven't slept in 48 straight hours and I'm coping with a teething infant AND a grumpy toddler AND jet-lag AND hurricanes AND cancelled flights AND AND AND... Don't run right out and call CPS just because I lose it for a second. And do me a favour while you are at it... Don't ROLL YOUR EYES at me and make sotto voce comments about how YOUR children never will/did act like that. Until you've walked a mile in my Manolo's <grin> you can't say jack about my life/methods.

    And also - if I'm trying to feed my child in a discreet manner, don't suddenly call attention to it by coming over and trying to peek at the baby uinder the blanket... Fergoodnesssakes... OR make rude comments as you walk away. It only makes YOU look foolish... COME ON! Isn't it pretty common knowledge that a baby that has its head COVERED by a blanket while being held by mommy while mommy grimaces in pain is generally EATING???

    And then one more....

    Don't you EVER EVER EVER ask if my TWO children are "ALL [mine]YOURS". OR ask "where is the father from?" and when I answer Indonesia give a blank stare like you've NEVER heard of the 4th most populated country in the freakin' WORLD and then ask for a Java or Sumatra blend at Starbucks...

    Can we tell I have issues? :twisted: :shock:
     
  16. foursquare

    foursquare New Member

    Then stay home. The society that we live in is replete with people, young and old, that smell bad, look funny, are loud, are obnoxious, are boors, etc., etc., etc. and we can't have them all removed when we snap our fingers.

    I can stop my child from being a noodge, but to do that, she has to first be a noodge. And you're going to have to suck it up and give me a chance to do my parenting.

    That a curmudgeon like yourself finds that intolerable and calls for the bouncer when people around you speak above a whisper speaks to your intolerance in general. I suggest you note your 20 seconds in your "Things the World Owes Me" ledger, go home, and stay there. You are not ready for a public where reasonable (and we're really talking about being reasonable) tolerance is expected.

    I can count on ZERO fingers the number of times I have been out anywhere that I have had to endure annoying children for any lengthy period of time; certainly not an entire dinner (and brother, I've been to Chuckie Cheese.) I would need many more times the number of hands I currently possess to count evenings close to ruined by obnoxious adults.

    Where are your parents that we can complain of your lack of training in how to live with other people? Where is the table far enough away that we can send you until you have learned better behavior?

    In a public setting, you are not guaranteed to be free of irritation. You were a child once... did your parents keep you locked in the house until you entered your twenties rather than risk possibly bothering those with the thinnest of skins?
     
  17. saludas

    saludas New Member

    Unfortunately, this is the kind of response I get from parents. They all assume that they are ok to interrupt others etc and do it in the name of the children.

    As you mention, an adult is obnoxious when they act out or interrupt your meal - but the child that is allowed to do this is also obnoxious AND it is the PARENT's fault this happens. therefore, you seem to want to be lumped into the "Rude, but uncaring" group that I object to.

    I NEVER on=bject to a child being childish. I DO object to an adult being childish, peevish, or boorish. PLEASE say you are not that parent who allows their child to be rude and boorish with your blessing ("aren't they cute? And - they're mine")/......
     
  18. SDsalsaguy

    SDsalsaguy Administrator Staff Member

    While open debate and exchanged is always welcome, I hope that everyone will keep DF guideline #4 firmly in mind, which includes...

     
  19. DancingMommy

    DancingMommy Active Member

    I think we're actually talking at cross purposes. Everyone who IS a parent understands the dilemma of those who aren't because we weren't BORN parents... We became them after some time on planet Earth (unless we are from elsewhere).

    Those who AREN'T parents are acknowledging that there are indeed those who let their little cherubs run amok and create wrack and ruin and those are the ones they can't stand.

    Those of us who ARE parents have most likely in the past had to deal with those who aren't parents basically giving us dirty looks (or worse) when we are trying our darndest to cope with situations that have melted down or we're trying to be proactive and eliminate the need for meltdowns.

    Before I was a parent, I had ZERO tolerance for "other people's children". One year as an early childhood educator (read preschool teacher) and then as a mom to a toddler, and I can assure you I have learned a LOT. I now can tell when a child is acting, acting up, melting down, tired, cranky, etc. I have more sympathy for parents now than I ever have before simply because I've walked in their shoes.

    I still have a zero tolerance for school age children who act out (for no apparent reason). Having been a model child myself (not kidding or bragging) I see no reason why an 8 year old can't behave properly in public during reasonable hours.

    I also know better than to take me toddler to places that aren't child friendly. If that means I have to give up something, then SO BE IT.
     
  20. foursquare

    foursquare New Member

    I will not tell you what kind of parent I am. In fact, I find the question itself rude and demand the DF moderator remove you to another forum (say, Yehoodi.)

    Yeah, I knew that wouldn't work. It doesn't work in real life either.

    Perhaps we can find some common ground here. I'm not talking about rude people. That's a whole other discussion. I am talking about regular people, specifically kids. Kids do not have the tools that you and I have to self-regulate their behavior. Kids have little concept of personal space, volume or etiquette. Those things have to be taught, and it takes awhile to sink in. And you know it. Regular kids are sometimes (Katy, bar the door!) annoying.

    Should you have to endure prolonged misbehaving? No. But you're point was that you shouldn't have to endure 20 seconds of it. That's not very reasonable or really very realistic, is it?

    I'll make a deal with you. I'll keep my child down to a dull roar and let you eat your meal in peace, but you keep the eye rolling down to a minimum and give me a REASONABLE chance to do it. It doesn't take long and you'll be none the worse for wear because I have hopefully given you something to chew on (hopefully your tongue to keep you quiet,) and you'll realize that these throngs of wild children just aren't there and your annoyance factor might be set just a wee bit high.

    You might even say a little silent thank you to your parents for having the patience to not beat the tar out of you everytime YOU got out of line, because friend, you wouldn't have no tar left.

    There are bad kids and there are bad adults. I just don't believe they're ruining your life on the hourly basis you would have us believe.

    Tell me, God's honest truth, when is the last time a kid's behavior really bothered you? I've done a mental trip back a couple month's and honestly (HONESTLY!) can't think of one. And I have a low tolerance for misbehaving kids. Ask my daughter.

    foursquare
    (Okay, since you asked politely: My daughter is nine, is in the gifted program at school, has had perfect attendance since she started school, says please and thank you, and goes to church most Sundays. I still, with this perfect [oh thank God] child have to remind her to say please and thank you, not to talk during a movie, not to interupt people, etc. because she's NINE! And the only way out of that is to let her get older without people like you pursing your lips and tut-tutting her at the slightest slip. Ferchrissakes, cut her a break!)
     

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