Salsa > Difference in types of salsa?

Discussion in 'Salsa' started by ronalds, Mar 18, 2013.

  1. vit

    vit Active Member

    It is in the music, because upbeats are accented, so it's a kind of natural to accent the movement on the upbeats, hence breaking on 2nd beat. Just like in waltz 1st beat is accented and nobody is dancing it on 2 or on3 ... in some other dances like tango people don't accent particular beats as the music is different and isn't calling for that

    Of course, you can dance on any music your own way, as long as your partner is willing to follow that ... but many of them won't
  2. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    :meh: Thought you´d know that there are great differences between cuban mambo cubano and nuyorican mambo clásico. At least, I refer to the latter.
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2014
  3. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Mine, too.
  4. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    First.. I should have guessed you were a musician. Its quite apparent you know more about what YOU feel how one should interpret music, but pragmatism rules.

    How on earth do you think that ,anyone and everyone should NOT have a dance structure ?. ANY beat will do ?, And I dont mean having choice where to emhasise,thats what is already de riguer.

    Ironically, does not music follow a format ? and a fairly rigid one ( if not a descarga ) .

    What dancers mean by "stepping " on clave is simply this..applying the break action , on2 after blending the 4and1 of the tumbao.And in Son, quite litteraly dancing on all 5 clicks, on occasion.

    And,, 1 and 2 is NOT in the music ??. Unless Im mistaken, after all my yrs teaching, unless they have literally done away with numbers, are there no counts, as in FOUR beats to a bar ?? .
    Do not stage people ,count down ?

    " Timing " in dance is all about "numbers" as in Slows and Quicks, ( and where ) i.e. how much time we allocate to each step .Music and dance is a mathematical formula ( Im sure you know that ? right ? ) .
    By the way... Ive lost count the number of times ,Ive had similar discussions with musicians .

    Lastly.. "feeling"..EVERYone "feels" music, we may/they, may not interpret any given song to suit you and or I,and I also realise that, in the language of spanish, there are stories being told, and that is a large part of the musical dialogue, and that many dancers do not understand the language, but thats OK, because we/they, are driven by the rhythm and melody .As to the beats we choose to accent, that is really personal choice, and in instances where the "dancer " has vast experience , we/they ,DO utilise all the beats ,as deemed suitable to their own performance.

    We all hear music thru our own perception, and we deal with that accordingly.

    From those perceptions, with some form of structure to our movement,and this needs to be somewhat universal, we "Dance " .

    I leave you with this comment from a well known musician from the mambo days ( I dont know what you dancers are dancing to, cos it aint what we are playing " .
  5. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    Of course there is ,BUT, the roots are STILL there. And , the old saying is still true ( from Puente ) ALL salsa is mambo ,but ,all mambo is NOT salsa.

    The musical differences, are not that far apart, in fact, I have some new releases, that are mambo styled thru and thru ( La Maxima for e.g. has songs styled that way ) .
    I also think its slightly mis-leading to imply that, because its NY/PR style ,there are NO old school roots.
    In the final analysis, its about " sound ". Pretty much all music sounds different today, recording equipment is light yrs ahead of the 40/50s .
  6. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    Thats very subjective. There are NO rules on HOW we move our bodies , when expressing music to dance.. personal choice rules.
  7. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    Here's an example. If you were to read a love poem, would you not read it sweetly and tenderly? Or, as is common practice at a salsa club, would you shout it out, blunder it rigidly and without phrasing? One is more correct than the other, and a lot of people would probably go to the extent that one of these interpretations is simply wrong for the context.

    The beat is in the music, however, and I think we've had this discussion before, stepping 1-2-3 _ 5-6-7 _ (i.e. On1) is not in the music. It may be musically implied on the rhythmic structure but for dancers to step so rigidly is not listening to the music, and most definitely not feeling it. I think anyone who has never taken a class, would not intuitively step with that foot pattern. Ever. It's simply not in the music and thus, what isn't there can't be interpreted as such.

    I would say that everyone hears music, but not everyone feels it. And teachers who teach steps are teaching students to ignore their ears, ignore their senses. You have to admit that the more musical dancers are the ones who are listening the most intently, understand the structure intuitively, can predict what will come next, and respond with their bodies accordingly. This just isn't going to happen when students are told to step On1 or On2, essentially teaching them that dance is about moving parts of the body in ways that have nothing to do with the music.
  8. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    Rules may not be written, but aesthetics determine what is correct or not. The fact that most peoples' subjective perceptions are very closely in line with others suggests that we do indeed have a deeper agreement about what's beautiful or not. You can't waltz to salsa and say that it's correct because "there are no rules on how we move our bodies". Most people will say that waltzing to salsa is just wrong because the movements and the music have nothing to do with each other.
    Imbrace likes this.
  9. vit

    vit Active Member

    Well, that's called musicality (or lack of). Unfortunately, most western teachers teach (sell) the steps and moves, it's easier and people are getting impression they always get something new for their money, so people dance what they learned. Teaching technique is boring, teaching musicality is hard ... and that's the result - lots of unmusical dancers with bad technique and not much musical dancers with good technique. But it's not only problem of salsa, but other dances taught in western world as well
    Imbrace and tangotime like this.
  10. vit

    vit Active Member

    Salsa is a mixture of european heritage, brought to Cuba say 2 senturies ago, and african heritage, brought with slaves. So predcestors of salsa (son, danzon etc) probably took that 3 step pattern from european dances; if you watch afrocuban dances, they don't have those regular patterns

    However, the same for the music - 4/4 measure also isn't african, as they are using irregular measures, many of them can't even be written using our note system. So if I bring your theory further, if you are going to read a poem, you won't do it in 4/4 measure and your feelings have no regular rhythm ... so we end up with the conclusion that everything is wrong in our western culture, which isn't of much help, isn't it ?
  11. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    Then how do you explain that, EVERY latino Ive ever known thru "dance ", and thats beyond count,that NEVER took a lesson, did dance intuitively on 1, the "down beat " ( some on 2 ) .

    And, I ve no dis-agreement with you ,on the incapabilities of many teachers, who know little or nothing, about musical structure .
  12. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    Exactly !!
  13. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    double post
  14. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    Yeah, I'm wondering what I'm missing in
  15. vit

    vit Active Member

    Hard to say was it intuitive or they have seen that from the older guys when young
  16. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    If so.. didnt they dance it intuitively ( rhetorical question ) . Common sense dictates, that, when NO formal structure was around, Downbeats would surely be the starting point, for ANY dance form done to music. ( Maybe 1 didnt exist in the dark days:rolleyes: ) oddly enough, zero really didnt .
    vit likes this.
  17. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    To clarify, when I said "On1" I'm referring to the 1-2-3 _ 4-5-6-_ stepping pattern. I did not say that there was no down beat.
  18. DanceMentor

    DanceMentor Administrator

    Sure, and for the benefit of someone reading this, you can dance 1-2-3 _ 5-6-7 _ and be doing NY style where the forward and back breaks are on 2 and 5
  19. vit

    vit Active Member

    Yeah, it's taught that way in NY, but in reality 1 and 5 slip a bit earlier towards 8 and 4 by most
    Unfortunately, overhere in Europe they are taking that timing literally so it frequently looks weird
  20. Angel HI

    Angel HI Well-Known Member

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