Salsa > Difference in types of salsa?

Discussion in 'Salsa' started by ronalds, Mar 18, 2013.

  1. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    I'm completely ignorant of what zouk and kizomba are. They're the name of dances but I assume it's a reference to the rhythm?

    In the first song, Divises, it's about undulating the mid body gently and slow turns. The melody is very prominent so that should be what the body responds to most.
    In the second, Divises Remix Kizomba, with the strong rhythm and subordinate melody, it's about moving the hips and legs with steps. For the most part, the upper body is still.
  2. Angel HI

    Angel HI Well-Known Member

    I don't know what all that other was about, but this (the bold) was exactly my point. That your previous post.....
    .... just seemed to be bizarre at best.
  3. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    Africans who have dark skin, more melanin, are more protected from the sun. Middle Easterners, with their lighter skin, are not as protected, hence the need for skin protection. This is a biological difference.
  4. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    Can you think of at least one other reason to wear more clothing in an arid environment?
  5. Angel HI

    Angel HI Well-Known Member

    I'm done.
  6. Imbrace

    Imbrace Member

    BTW, are you a dancer like us or only a musician? Because we have these dance styles to enjoy, and my eyes are just opening to your theory. Up until now, I danced zouk or kizomba depending on what I felt in the moment, environment or my partner if she know only one style. But now I am considering your theory.

    Have you got a couple of video examples to share of how melodic salsa (or more melodic salsa) should be danced to?
  7. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    I'm a musician and a dancer. It took some time for me to get over the things I was taught in classes and really listen to the music (instead of using it as a metronome). It's only when I listened for musical meaning that I fully realized what we were taught had nothing to do with the music. This set off a search for what dance was really about.

    I don't have videos of mainstream salsa to reference at the moment. Most videos of mainstream salsa are the same (On1/On2, turn patterns, etc). However, there is a difference in the style of Cali (Columbian salsa) due to the fast tempo and rhythms. The movements reflect the music much better than mainstream:

    Even though movements reflect the music better, the focus on steps (lower body movement) doesn't reflect the entire music. The mid and upper body should move much more to express the melody and other instruments.

    Now here's an alternative interpretation of salsa as a partner dance: masculine and feminine roles which are rarely mentioned. The masculine role focuses mainly on the rhythm. The feminine on the melody. In this way, the man would step to the rhythm and the woman would gyrate to the melody which accentuates her body. This has a biological basis: during arousal women "present" their bodies: nipples become erect, chest puffs out to make breasts appear larger, and hips sway to exaggerate hip width displaying the ease of baby birthing capability. I don't know exactly what men do when aroused so maybe women can chime in on this. But in dance, men rarely move the hips but do rotate the shoulders and step with the legs. You'll notice that these roles are very common in regular social dancers. Women naturally move the mid and upper bodies more and this correlates very well to that part of the music. And since men tend to move the legs, this correlates well with the rhythm. If you put these two together, the man and the woman would both be expressing all of the music, not just certain aspects like the rhythm. This would also make it much easier for the man and the woman since they each have their respective role to play in the dance.
  8. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    Without getting into a "dialogue ", what you have stated in long winded terms, is what ANY good teacher should know.You are kinda preaching to the choir in many respects .

    In essence, you have decribed the " Call and Response " of which the dance is based upon .

    BUT.. music, has evolved into a sub genre of its original format. There are still basic concepts that are taught ,by those with knowledge of the subject matter beyond " counting " .

    So.. for all your posturing, you should have read the numerous articles on Salsa Forums where this has been discussed ad infinitum ( with some latin musicians giving their "take ) .

    And, as a teacher, you need to know this: unfortunately, the majority of students are really not interested in "In depth " teaching, only wish they were .

    In the final analysis.. pragmatism is the order of the day when "teaching " salsa.. keep it short keep it simple .
  9. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    To throw in another vid, this time montuno style. How would you describe the dancing of Eloy Leiva and Niovis Soto, LKSO?
  10. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    They're obviously playing to the audience, not dancing for each other. What they're doing isn't reflecting the music much. Their bodies are like jello, but the music is much more discreet. I lost interest in watching about halfway through and just listened to the music. Isn't the music nice?
  11. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    I'm not thinking about dance in terms of teaching. I'm thinking about it in terms of art, as in, the highest level of expression using movement as the language.
  12. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    Im OK with that, but, one has to create a "bridge " to that end. And, again.. 95% of students ( and most teachers ) have no interest in developing any of the finer and more subtle points ,which relate to the combination of movement to music .

    So. my point was. IF you dont get them hooked on basic concepts, then they wil NEVER attain any depth of understanding .

    Im not an artist in the painting sense, but, I must assume ALL had to learn ,HOW to mix paints , the type of brush or pallet knife to use and for what purpose.

    We all start with a blank canvas when entering the artistic world of dance and music..
    The percentage that graduate to the higher levels ,is miniscule in proportion to the entrants.
  13. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    Our culture views dance as exotic and not intrinsic to the culture. Thus, it's not taken seriously. If it was absolutely necessary to get girls (e.g in Argentina with tango, various African cultures) then men would work on developing the necessary skills and artistry to impress the opposite sex. If you screw up, you'd be punished harshly (not being able to reproduce.) But here, you screw up and you're still dancing, perhaps with someone else. It's basically a revolving door system.

    I still believe that teaching beginners the idea that dance is easy is doing both them and the dance population a disservice. If they weren't there for the right reasons, then I would be happy that they dropped out instead of learning some moves, going to a club, twisting some women's arms off... (I've even had my arm injured by a woman once when she decided to fling herself into an unled turn.) Anyway, beginners should learn from the beginning that it's hard and be bombarded with all the details necessary for the dance. This would prevent the over-night-I'm-a-dance teacher phenomenon.
  14. Imbrace

    Imbrace Member

    I agree this is the # 1 priority. Because who knows in details why someone (male or female) comes to a class or goes to a social. But we all know that everyone is looking for having a good time. Also, if you are the man of principle when it comes to listening and perfectly responding to music, it remains a great idea to bring all people in, make them have good times dancing, and then talk them into that advance level. Does this spread your open culture better?

    I think teachers fail the most in making sure their students have good times dancing in the class as well as socially. For a student, it's like when buying a second hand car, you've got to be knowledgeable and know for what quality you're exchanging your money, or be lucky, or you're screwed.
    I agree men and women are meant for different roles (not the semi-science put behind it). In my dance experience I find it very true.

    Anyway, WCS suits the mainstream music, more intrinsic to the US culture, responds well to melodies with mid and upper body movements. Why do you think exotic dance styles have took over from it? What do you think of this?
  15. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    I don't know if salsa is more popular than WCS (probably is), but WCS isn't sexy, especially compared to salsa and other latin dances. American women have an obsession with sexiness so Latin serves that purpose better. (Have you seen what some women wear to salsa clubs? Yikes!) Watching that video, I was immediately reminded of salsa except with different music. The movements seemed inappropriate. The high kicks made me laugh. I think cowboys would dance better to the music than WCS.
  16. Imbrace

    Imbrace Member

    LKSO, I've just realized I might have given impression that I was talking to TT, but I'm talking to you in the whole post :) I hope TT will not get confused why I'm telling him that :D
    Sexy, in which sense? If just in what some women wear in salsa nights, I see women in the originating cultures expose more skin even on streets and during the day. In Bali, a woman may even go shopping topless.
  17. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    That's the reason why I think all of the dance should be shown from the very beginning. It gives them the opportunity for beginners to see the correlation between what they hear and what they feel. It should be a natural sensation to move to the music in a manner that just makes sense. You're body will know if it's right or wrong to move to the music in a certain way. Some movements feel much more right than others. But unfortunately, over time, you become even more desensitized to it by following teacher instruction instead of your own ears and letting it speak through your body.
    What's unnatural is to do the "basic step" to music that has no correlation with that movement. This is the reason why many beginners have difficulty "counting" because the music doesn't lend itself very well to "1-2-3_5-6-7_". Even as a musician, I had extreme difficulties hearing the One in the music and trying to step to it. It's mostly buried under layers of elements, elements which are much more musically prominent but altogether ignored by teachers.

    I was watching a TEDx video yesterday by a musician and teacher and he said something that rings true in dance as well: the moment you take lessons is the moment the smile is wiped off your face. But if you never took lessons, you'll always have a smile.

    I'm mostly speaking about the culture of the US where wearing risque clothing is generally viewed negatively. But going salsa dancing gives women the opportunity to wear trashy outfits and act in ways they normally wouldn't. Not so in WCS where the attire is much more casual.
  18. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    Thats OK.. I live in a state of confusion ! :rolleyes:
  19. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    I dont know what style of music you of which you were attempting to dance, but, as a " musician " are you saying that the Piano ( in much of salsa, where the montuno is VERY strong ) you cannot hear the 1st bars downbeat ?

    I all my yrs of teaching ( and I ve taught some world class, VERY prominent musicians ).
    Most had difficulty in motion to music.

    Ive always believed that there is a dis-connect when the 2 meet " dancers and musicians " .

    Having stated that, it has been overcome with undue care and attention. And, I should add, that all these were taught initially ,to break on 1
  20. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    All of the songs played when I took a beginner class didn't have the piano in the ensemble. I wasn't the only one having trouble; everyone else was, too. It took some time of repeated listening to selectively focus on the beat to hear the one - and not the beat in the middle of the measure, count '5'. Because 1 and 5 sound very similar I had to actually count from 1 to 8 to know where the it was and some music seems very ambiguous. This made it much more complicated to do the basic step because if I wasn't already prepped to step with the left foot forward, I would miss it. The piano isn't used in a lot of salsa bands nowadays.

    Finding the 1 is beside the point, however. What did we do until we found the one? Stand there doing nothing. No movements were taught beside the "basic step" so if we ever lost the count, we'd stop. This is obviously not dancing if all we were taught to do was step in a very specific pattern.

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