General Dance Discussion > Do men dance?

Discussion in 'General Dance Discussion' started by Sagitta, Sep 8, 2004.

  1. cocodrilo

    cocodrilo New Member

    The current thread "Do Men dance?" is about to be changed to "Do Men Enjoy Complicated IT Vernacular?" :lol:
  2. DWise1

    DWise1 Well-Known Member

    Well, men do definitely enjoy geeking out.

    On the matter of men dancing, while our Sunday Lindy classes are normally balanced and will tip either way (fewer than 6 too many of either men or women out of 50 students), a class that he's teaching at a local mega-church starting tonight has way too many women and far too few men. Which is why the two women who organized the class were recruiting as many men as they could from the Sunday class to join in as guests to even it out. That's where I just now came from. And even though about 8 of us joined in, there were still a lot of women who had to wait during the rotation.

    The fundamentalist mega-churches in the area have a history of swing classes, but I don't know whether the others have had the same problem of being follow-heavy (number-wise, of course, not weight-wise). Is there something about that religious group's mind-set that make the men less inclined towards dancing? I'll have to ask the first question (the historical patterns of the classes' balance) at class this Sunday.

    FWIW, two Februaries ago we went to an out-of-town Valentine's Day dance at the Unitarian church of a former minister of ours. It was mainly swing music (a form of ECS) and, yes, there were a few same-gender couples, and not for "learning to lead/follow" purposes. And our church's current minister expressed interest in learning Lindy, but the class schedules conflict with his ministerial duties.
  3. tsb

    tsb Well-Known Member

    i'm curious as to who you're describing as fundamentalist; i've never heard the term used in a positive or even neutral context by someone not of that particular... perspective.
  4. blue

    blue New Member

    What is a mega-church?
  5. rails

    rails New Member

    Try this:

    DWise1 is from Orange County California, the land of mega-churches. Sounds like they're one of the very few places on earth where women actually outnumber men for partner dancing.
  6. tsb

    tsb Well-Known Member

    my take is a church with a congregation numbering in the thousands - and usually has a church "campus" consisting of multiple buildings, etc. i can think of a few down in OC that might fit that category such as marriners (sp?), saddleback, maybe st. andrews... i have friends who go or have gone to each of these churches and i personally wouldn't categorize any of them as 'fundamentalist'.
  7. DWise1

    DWise1 Well-Known Member

    It's at Saddleback.

    I had weathered through many Bible-beatings (ie, getting hit over the head by one, figuratively speaking) during the "Jesus Freak" (as they called themselves) days of Chuck Smith's church and learned much about fundamentalist theology at that time, mostly from friends who had converted.

    I admit (having just now Google'd it) that I had mistakenly associated Chuck Smith Jr. with Saddleback (he is not, but rather has his own mega-church, Calvary in Capo Beach). However, a couple at church had been associated with Saddleback before discovering our church and what they described of its teachings agreed very much with what I had learned of fundamentalist Christian theology when I was a "fellow traveller".
  8. tsb

    tsb Well-Known Member

    never personally been there myself but yeah, saddleback is definitely huge.

    not familiar with this guy at all.

    while i did attend a church i'd describe as fundamentalist for a summer while in college about 20 years ago, my view of fundamentalism was permanently affected by berke breathed's comic strip bloom county when bill the cat become 'fundamentally oral bill' for a season.

    i think the wise thing to do here is to take the example of someone like c.s. lewis, who was certainly a brilliant debater & theologian, but chose rather to find ways to discuss our commonalities vs. our differences in our convictions. or we could get into a debate on salsa-on-1 vs. salsa-on-2! :D
  9. DWise1

    DWise1 Well-Known Member

    No, no, no! I'd rather we steer clear of religious issues!
  10. tsb

    tsb Well-Known Member

    alas, zealotry is not limited to religion.
  11. huey

    huey New Member

  12. Sagitta

    Sagitta Well-Known Member

    Some interesting links. The dances I enjoy the most are with give and take. I find that with salsa just as the author finds that with lindy. I dance to connect, I dance to play. That I find it with salsa is due to my inclination for the music, the rhythms. It speaks to me like no other music does. For some others it might be swing, to others AT, and to another subset it might be contra.
  13. tsb

    tsb Well-Known Member

    i suspect that male culture is somewhat different in the UK as compared to in the US. interesting conclusion vis a vis the fighting. while i personally prefer cutting remarks that leave long-lasting emotional scars :) i do use aikido principles in my lead, in my awareness of & in my influence on my partner's mass & momentum, etc. and i'm also a decent marksman.

    i submit that an equally valid conclusion is that in the cases posited, the mastery of a martial art facilitates a level of self-confidence that allows the men in question to overcome the natural inhibitions that generally come with the fear of looking stupid. while i do consider this both reasonable & plausible, i do expect that other factors also come into play as we all have our own unique cultural bias(es) & temperments.

  14. jon

    jon Member

    Er, is there any reason to believe this isn't just some random university employee with a quirky personal agenda about women? That essay is off-the-wall in several respects; then there's the part where he says that even though the only experimental data he has contradicts his theory, it's still true.
  15. SwinginAngel

    SwinginAngel New Member

    How apropos! I was tring to recruit males to my school's swing dance club and they practically ran from the table. Their excuse was that they cannot dance. Why are they so scared of dancing?
  16. blue

    blue New Member

    I have only browsed through Lloyds text, but I do not think it should be taken too seriously... :wink:
  17. cocodrilo

    cocodrilo New Member

    That's pretty funny and in many cases, pretty true-
    Women dancing in circles around piles of handbags- I've seen it & DONE it!
    Women not wanting to marry a guy who is a good dancer because, in a word, the guy'll be unfaithful- seen that happen quite a few times(mostly involving latino salsa teachers. Personally know of 2 guys who married & divorced Japanese women!)

    Sure, a lot of what the guy says should be taken with a grian of salt but it's a pretty humorous observation nonetheless and he obviously has had a fair amount of experience testing his theories! :wink:
  18. blue

    blue New Member

    After actually reading the text - well, the suggestion that dancing skills would be a measure of fighting ability is... I suppose the whole text is a joke. It is fun and contains a few clever observations, that was probably the major point... The soke (grandmaster) of Bujinkan has said that dancing is good practise and improves your taijutsu (let's translate it technique in this context). Dancing and martial arts operate with two bodies moving in space, and arts that do not only involve kicks and strikes but only some kind of throws or joint technique till involve how to lead a body using its own mass and direction... so there could be many reasons for overrepresentation of men with martial arts background among the good dancers in Lloyds jive club. What about dancers in martial arts? Some of the actors in martial arts movies are actually not martial artists, but dancers! David Carradine is the only name that springs to my mind at the moment, but there are more. I think I will make a new theory, suggesting that martial arts is a way for men to learn to dance without looking sissy. :D Maybe I can make Lloyd publish it on his page. If I have too much time and energy some day not knowing how to spend it, I will make a try...

    What strikes my eye as a very odd part in his "theory" is of course the suggestion that men refrain from dancing as a kind of solidarity act to other men, hiding their qualities from women because dance is a "weapon" with which women can choose a good partner. Of course evolution put solidarity to other men as more important than trying to get good positions for finding partners... :roll: Most of the time when people try to apply Darwinistic theories in partner choosing, the logics look quite different. :) Not that I'm a big fan of those theories either.

    I, like Lloyd, live in a country where more women than men like to dance. Some of the comments here sounds like it usually is the opposite in the US. Does someone have a neat theory to explain this cultural difference? Hey, you don't need a very strong theory to write half a dozen of pages about is - as has recently been proven. ;)
  19. huey

    huey New Member

    Hi blue,

    I don't think Lloyd is suggesting that the reason men don't dance is to show solidarity with other men. Rather, he says it's the high risk of embarrassment in front of others ...

    Here's part of his penultimate paragraph ...

    "A dance is a bit like a lek. In a lekking species such as grouse, all the males display to the females, perhaps doing a sort of dance, because this is the only way to get selected by the females. Very few males win mates in a lek, and most males go lonely. Humans are not perfectly monogamous, and do go in for lekking on a lesser scale. Stronger more talented lekkers would benefit from lekking, but for most men, leks are a great risk, or even a certain disaster."
  20. pygmalion

    pygmalion Well-Known Member

    Lekking? Looks like I'm going to have to break down and actually read the article. :roll: :lol:

    (Is lekking anything like the little lizard push-ups I witness on my patio? EM's want to know. :wink: )

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