Tango Argentino > Do women and men want the same thing from tango?

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by jantango, Nov 2, 2009.

  1. jantango

    jantango Active Member

    It doesn't take much to keep me happy dancing tango --a comfortable embrace and being protected on a crowded floor are my main criteria so I can concentrate on the music with my partner.

    Men -- are you taking care of your partners and giving them what they really want on the dance floor? Do you know what women want or think you know?
  2. Lui

    Lui Active Member

    I would say that your mindset is the perfect premise for a wonderful time at the dance floor. Nevertheless, I believe different people, men aswell as woman, follow different aims when dancing. Some are looking for a pleasant dance, some for the admiration of the onlookers, some for an affair ...

    I can not claim to fulfill all woman’s desires. For a start I’m not George Cloony ...
  3. arslanz

    arslanz New Member

    A lot of followers talks like you....and i can understand.....problem is i like the open embrace and the nuevo stiles that sometime surprises my follower....but i also have to say that a lot of women in the end find it pleasant because it can became a change for a little.....
  4. tangonuevo

    tangonuevo New Member

    I suspect that not all women want what you do. I know what my regular partner wants, because she tells me in fairly blunt terms, and it is certainly NOT what you seem to say that you want. So be careful of generalizing your wishes, your strengths and your weaknesses to others.
  5. mkjohnson

    mkjohnson Member

    I think it's not so much what men vs. women want, but, in very general terms, the goals of more visually-motivated dancers and the goals of more connection/tactile motivated dancers. There is a leader I know that has told me his regular dance partner will execute ganchos and boleos whether he leads them or not because that's what she likes. He conforms to her wishes and leads them - and believes that that style is what most women want (despite hearing otherwise from other followers).

    I know men and women on both sides - the ones who are looking for a particular aesthetic/visual ideal and ones that are looking for a warm, connected embrace - regardless of what onlookers see. It's possible, of course, to try for both - but that puts limits on both sides.

    Maybe it gets too easy to blame "insensitive leaders" for not leading the way we like - but how are they to know when each follower (or teacher) tells them something different? All they can do - all any of us can do as followers or leaders - is to do what Ampster called "Dialing in". There are few generalities once we embrace. There is only the person in front of us to dance for and to connect with (leaving aside the entire dance floor that we must accomodate for right now). We can only "dial in" to one person at a time.
  6. Mario7

    Mario7 Member

    ""I think one of the problems is that there are followers who aren't impressed with a leader until he can lead ganchos, volcadas, boleos and leg wraps in the span of 30 seconds. This weekend I noticed that two leaders I like very much have switched to open embrace so that they can lead more complex, and bigger steps. I admit to feeling a tiny bit heart-broken. Dancing open embrace with them after having danced close leaves me feeling a bit out in the cold. Being led three types of ganchos in a single song doesn't make up for that feeling in the least.""
    The above is a quote that I lifted from another Tango forum..written by an honest woman and one that I whole heartedly agree with...
    I've mostly seen women (young) driving the men to use open hold and be more elaborate.
    It saddens me.
  7. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    I don't think that all women want the same thing, and since most women aren't as clear as you are about what they want, I would conclude that I don't know what [all] women want.
  8. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    There's an interesting rule-of-thumb used in one of my areas of actual professional interest (usability testing), which is "the user lies".

    That is, the things users say about their behaviour and their preferences are often wrong. People are very poor witnesses to their own behaviour. Weird but true.

    The only real way to judge what they like is to observe their actual behaviour in relation to the thing being tested. If we judge what they say based on their statements, we usually get it wrong.

    So, if we (say) see a lot of women wanting to dance with the move-monster men, that's an objective observation...
  9. Ampster

    Ampster Active Member

    In answer to your question, Its all about HER!
  10. ant

    ant Member

    If you were not on a crowded floor would your expectation on the leaders use of space not increase and if this is the case how would you expect him to use that space?
  11. bastet

    bastet Active Member

    So- how does this play out on a crowded social floor? My other half danced with a lady the other night who did unled high boleos on a completely chaotic floor (there was space, but it was not being managed well by most of the leaders) and she kicked someone.

    I'm starting a new thread. This really bugs me.
  12. Madahlia

    Madahlia Member

    I'm not concerned with being safe and protected as I rarely dance on a crowded floor.

    Bearing in mind what DB says about us not knowing what we really want I think I would include in no particular order:

    *A comfortable embrace
    *Not having my axis compromised by the man
    *Unequivocal leads
    *Being allowed to express and share a sense of the music
    *Dancing within my partner's comfortable ability (unless experimenting by prior arrangement)

    This is the base line requirement for pleasant dancing with a range of people including beginners. I could go on to ask for the sun, moon and stars - however they are not strictly necessary but an unlooked for treat and luxury.
  13. tangonuevo

    tangonuevo New Member

    Major, major pet peeve of mine!! Big moves, or athletic moves, or whatever, may have _nothing_ to do with visual motivation even though many close embrace dancers appear to imagine that this is the case.

    My partner is a ballet dancer, lifts weights and does pilates. She loves to move. She loves the physicality of dance. She is not terribly interested in merely walking in a comfortable hug. We dance at home as often as we dance socially. When out, we tame it down, including going to a totally close embrace, small dance if courtesy requires. BUT at home, on the large open dance floor, she wants to dance BIG. And we try weird sh#t. She doesn't mind falling - she has been a dancer all her life (she is in her 50s) and thinks of falling as an oh-well event.

    So I again suggest that one not project ones desires and motivations onto others.
  14. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Hi, roughly speaking I find that there are two extremes: Some close their eyes, snuggle up to me and enjoy the dance, others have an eye in the mirror or on the audience and register who is staring.
  15. Mario7

    Mario7 Member

    I found this post VERY helpfull. thks:cheers:
  16. mkjohnson

    mkjohnson Member

    Tangonuevo: First, what I wrote was a ***suggestion of a possibility*** to take the discussion away from men vs. women context. So maybe you shouldn't look for an attack where none was intended.

    Second, I've been a kickline/Can-Can dancer, a Sattriya (classical Indian) dancer, a gymnast and I've had training in ballet and belly dancing. I also lift weights, practice Pilates and Alexander Method. I also love to move. My first exposure to actually dancing to tango music wasn't even dancing tango - my partner and I performed Dance Apache. You want to talk about dancing big and athletic - try out a dance that requires of being thrown to the floor (in time to the music of course). In that context I didn't mind falling, getting bloodied knees, bruised hips etc. either.

    But at the end of the day, preferring *"merely"* walking in a comfortable hug shouldn't suggest I'm not capable of understanding anything else.
  17. tangonuevo

    tangonuevo New Member

    I had written Blah, blah .... So I again suggest that one not project ones desires and motivations onto others.
    First, and with apologies, I tried not to imply that you couldn't do things, or hadn't skills, or weren't fit, or whatever. I tried to remain very neutral on those because I don't know you. So I apologize if you took my comments as belittling because that was NOT my intent. I commented on my partner's background only to help put her wishes in perspective.

    Second, I didn't take it as an attack. I've danced for way too many years (>15) to care what others may think of me personally. Rather, I saw it as an oh too frequent dichotomization of the discussion - visual v.s. connection. Opendoor continued this also with the two extremes - snuggle up or watch the mirror. I am trying to suggest that there are OTHER motivations that are neither snuggle up/connection nor watch the mirror/visual. From your background, it sounds like you certainly get this.

    I guess what I'm reacting to is the frequently expressed idea that if you are not dancing small/close embrace you must be dancing for an audience, when this is quite simply false. But if people choose to believe that, Oh well.

    Regards, TN
  18. mkjohnson

    mkjohnson Member

    tangonuevo - mea culpa. I jumped on your post and took it personally just as I asked you not to. I'm equally frustrated by stereotypes associated with milonguero dancers who get told that we only like dancing close because we don't know any better. (I've actually been told that so I'm a little to touchy about that one. sorry)

    I know nuevo dancers who dance with great respect and connection with each other, for the floor and other dancers. They adapt to the space, respect other dancers in their dance and in their attitude. I think it's just when things go badly - they're highly visible. So it's easy for them to draw fire.

    Again, apologies for getting my knickers in a twist. --M
  19. tangonuevo

    tangonuevo New Member

    Of course! And I hope you'll save me a dance if I'm ever in Texas.

    Regards, TN
    (Who dances close embrace/milonguero style just about as often as salon or nuevo ;))
  20. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    FWIW, I'm (primarily) a close embrace dancer, and I agree with you. Some people are simply having fun, by doing the flashy moves. It's a different emotion from what I would call being connected, but I don't consider it to be any less legitimate. I just don't want my follower to get kicked, nor do I want them blocking the lane for half the song.

    There is a follower that I like to dance with, who likes to open up a fair amount when doing giros (much more than I typically like). However with her, she's really good at it, and it is quite fun. If a vals tanda starts, (and there is lots of space), she is someone who I seek out.

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