Tango Argentino > Do you like Piazzola?

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by wadpro, Jan 25, 2010.

  1. gregolam

    gregolam Member

    We're getting right back into semantics again. I would rather just agree to disagree since this is very clearly something which we not all agree on. Some people feel very uncomfortable calling it Argentine Tango unless it is something very specific, thats why we end up with so many classifications in music and dance. Others, myself included, could really care less what its called.

    Lets worry more about the pleasure in our own dances than about the sanctity of everyone elses.

    Also is there anything else I might like if I like Piazzolla? I like things like Otros Aires and Gotan Project too, but I already have that experimental stuff and I am now looking for newer interpetations of more old fashioned recordings. I absolutely love Piazzolla's Zero Hour, picked up Hector del Curtos Eternal Tango and loved it, and two other things by Quintango and the Silencio Tango Orchestra which I liked a bit too. Any other suggestions or maybe I should ask this in a new post.
  2. Me

    Me New Member

    I... highly... recommend Alejandro Drago to get a nice Piazzolla fix. He is brilliant as a violinist and composer. I had the honor of performing with him a few years ago, and I was truly blown away. Such a rare talent. This page has some of his music. Verano Porteño is a trip! http://www.alejandrodrago.com/audio.html

    For newer interpretations of more old fashioned recordings... and if you like Quintango... I think you will love anything by Color Tango.
  3. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    I was doing a reducto whatsit to demonstrate the intense silliness of such an extreme position, yes.
  4. chanchan

    chanchan Member

    There is someone, somewhere in the world, which is really interested to the argentine tango that is danced in argentine, maybe we have to call it argentine argentine tango?

    I am using the same kind of reductio that you used before to demostrate that the position you are criticizing is not so silly and not even "extreme", but quite natural, and related to the proper meaning of the word "argentine".
    If you have another definition for AT, it's up to you to explain and justify it. And in any case I don't think it will allow you to say that other definitions are silly.
  5. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    tO paraphrase Don Henley
    "Thanks for the tutorials and, no, you're not the first to bring this to my attention—and you're not the first to completely misinterpret the lyric and miss the metaphor. Believe me, I've danced enough tango in my time to know the music and what the proper nomenclature is. But the subject of this thread has little or nothing to do with alcoholic beverages. It's a musical/ity discussion. My only regret would be having to explain it in detail to you, which would defeat the purpose of using literary devices in songwriting and lower the discussion to some silly and irrelevant argument about whether its tango or not."
  6. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    Is Nuevo Tango danced in Argentina? What about Stage Tango?
  7. newbie

    newbie Well-Known Member

    It is. "Loca milonga" on Wednesdays comes to mind.
  8. chanchan

    chanchan Member

    Of course Stage Tango is danced in Argentina, you can call it AST: Argentine Stage Tango, and I'm sure nobody would disagree.

    I don't know what do you mean exactly by "Nuevo", but I think that probably there is no reason to call it differently than Argentine Tango. It depends on the definition that you use.
  9. Mario7

    Mario7 Member

    Could we call 'Nuevo' (colgadas, ganchos, underarm turns, spot dancing, etc. etc.) ..ah...'Stage Tango'...huh? please? please?:confused:
  10. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    not on your nelly; stage tango is rehearsed; nuevo is lead.

    dont know what spot dancing is though; can you enlighten me?
  11. Lui

    Lui Active Member

    There are several Nuevo-places in Buenos Aires – no wonder as there is a great demand from aboard and it is a new field to explore and conquer for the up starting dancers.

    Stage tango, while being rehearsed, still is lead to the very detail, otherwise it would be out of sync. In case of emergency Stage Tango is even improvised. I’ve seen some stage shows incorporate Nuevo elements like volcadas, but executed in a more traditional/dynamic way. Herrera had a Nuevo orientated show once, but I never had a change to see it.

    I have never heard of any show using only the latest acrobatic/ slow dangling Nuevo moves and I assume it would be hard to keep the interest of a “lay” audience for 1.5 hours, just as it is hard to entertain them with one hour Milonguero.

    Of course stage Tango is danced in Argentina - on a stage of course. Small stages you will find in any tourist restaurant in San Telmo, a great show and great food you will find at the "Esqunia Carlos Gardel" for example. Than there is a low but constant demand for the touring dance companies.
  12. tangonuevo

    tangonuevo New Member

    [rant]WAY in agreement with BTM. Everything about nuevo is lead. That is why I do insist that, within the right crowd, i.e. those who get the joke, nuevo _is_ social tango. No patterns, no choreography, no step sequences, etc. Every step, every motion, etc is led. And if I _do_ relax my lead, allowing the follow to give voice to her wishes as well, we both follow, we both lead, we really have a conversation, and none is rehearsed.

    And we are doing this totally for ourselves, not as a show. My partner and I dance this way preferentially even in the privacy of our own home simply because it is what we like.

    Stage Tango & Nuevo tango are very different things.

    OBTW, we do all of this small and in LOD if the floor conditions are the least bit crowded. [/rant]
  13. Subliminal

    Subliminal Well-Known Member

    Also, some of the elements you listed have been around a long time. Just because they aren't danced in close quarters doesn't mean that makes them nuevo. There are plenty of salon/traditional dancers who will open up with them if they have the space.
  14. Lui

    Lui Active Member


    I assume, we can agree that good tango, no matter what style, is always about the lead/the connection. I can’t think of any style, that will gain anything from a poor lead.

    I’m not even so sure if stage tango is an unique style, as it is basically an the amplification of social dancing. Most often it’s like tango de salon, but more flashy, more flimflam, playing for the last row of the audience. It’s tango following the rules of theatre. It is also an interesting way to tell a story by dancing. I have seen stage adaptions of Canyengue like dancing and even a short Milonguero act. Maybe someday someone will adapt the Nuevo style that way and we will have Nuevo Stage Tango.

    In social dancing, the freedom of sequences and patterns is more a question of experience and skill and not of style. I don’t see less Nuevo couples using some kind of pattern than traditional couples, at least here in Berlin. However, I don’t see patterns as a capital sin more as a crutch.

    But I’m curious about the negotiation of the lead. Form me good dancing is the translation of music in to movement. However, there are many possible ways to achieve that. You might for example follow the beat, the rhythm or the melody, meanwhile you will have to respect the other couples and the LOD. If therefore the follower leads a move, doesn’t she need to take over the responsibility for the complete navigation and interpretation, which is basically a change of roles. Or is she merely suggesting on option, like it is very common at the pasada in traditional tango. I’m very curious, because most Nuevo dancers I have seen lately seem to be entangled in their conversation of moves and seem to be oblivious to the music actually played.
  15. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    would have been simpler f this thread had been a poll!

    way off topic!!
  16. Lui

    Lui Active Member

    OK, back to the Topic. Last year I read a very interesting interview with Juan Copes (Tangodanza #3, 2009):

    Copes, as he claims, was one of the first dancers to interpret Piazolla’s music on stage like setting (verano porteño at the Caño in the 1960). He seemed to have a close personal relationship to the composer for some years. In his judgment Piazolla was intrigued by expressing his feelings by the music. Adiós Nonio is a good example, as it was Piazollas way to deal with his father’s dead. Before Piazolla tango music and dance were regarded as inferior forms of entertainment, compared to classical European music and Ballet or the elaborated American Broadway productions. Copes and Piazolla seemed to harbor the same desire to elevate Tango to the state of art. Piazolla by choosing the form of complex musical expression, Copes by designing complex stage movements.

    From an economic point of view it was the right idea at the right time. In the 1950 the advert of rock and roll changed the club scene. During just a couple of years many traditional tango orchestras were out of work. When the the military overthrew Peron’s goverment in 1955 most tango related subsidies were canceled. Therefore, I would not see Piazolla has the cause of the decline of traditional tango dance music, but rather as the survivor. A great composer and – a good example of Evolution or maybe Capitalism at work.

    Today there is a big demand for danceable music and if it keeps up I expect to encounter more and more dance orchestras as time goes by.
  17. newbie

    newbie Well-Known Member

    Poor lead is the very reason why the estilo petito (later named milonguero) was created. Not knowing how to lead, the (by then) youngsters were unable to dance in salon style.
  18. Mario7

    Mario7 Member

    :shock: This cannot be serious:rolleyes:..anyone, who thinks this way and is a dancer, has completely missed the FEEL of the 'milonguero' style. "Not knowing how to lead" the youngsters were pied piped into the NUEVO style that we see today.....(of course the NUEVOS are still denying that there is such a thing as NUEVO.):raisebro:
  19. tangonuevo

    tangonuevo New Member

    I agree with BTM that I helped pull this thread waaaay of topic and apologize.

    Mario, if you want to start a new thread dealing with this I am willing to have civil discourse.

    And there are a number of Piazzolla pieces I absolutely love to dance to, and some I don't even like to listen to. But I admire them all. Oh well.
  20. Lui

    Lui Active Member

    @ Newbie

    How do you get the idea, that Tango de Salon is an older style than Milonguero? Tango de Salon was created when Tango was reimported from France after 1900. The middle and upper class took up dancing. They had access to polished wooden floors, which provided the premise to employ lots of pivot and to develop elegant movements. Older styles, like Canyengue were often danced on a much rougher floor, like the street, so they emphasized more on the play with the timing, rhythm and connection. You will find many aspects of Canyengue in today’s Milonguero Style or any early film document. The whole idea of styles seems to be developed to label the product for export. Usually an experienced dancer will adapt to the space and music. So when todays Oldtimers were young, nobody thought in categories of Salon vs. Milonguero, more in Milonguero A’s style or place B’s style. To me, however, the so called Milonguero seems to have the older roots than Salon.

    From years of teaching I can guarantee you, that very small playful Milonguero is quite hard to learn and dance, even when it looks like nothing from the outside - a lot harder than elegant Tango de Salon.Those tiny movements are very unforgiving for poor lead.

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