Swing Discussion Boards > Don't Knock the Rock

Discussion in 'Swing Discussion Boards' started by Black Sheep, May 23, 2003.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Just so we're on the same page, when you say WCS do you mean

    1) West Coast Swing, a dance derived from Lindy Hop

    2) a style of Lindy Hop on the West Coast

    Black Sheep is using it as a the last, where as I'd guess you'd be using it as the first?

  2. MissAlyssa

    MissAlyssa New Member

    to be honest I'm not a swing buff so I couldn't tell you the difference.
  3. d nice

    d nice New Member

    Re: Whip Math

    Interesting... the dancers at the Savoy pretty much stopped rocking the follower back before a swing out in the early 30's. I'll have to watch the clips again, but I'm about 90% sure that I never saw your partner rockstep before the whips in the train scene.
  4. Vince A

    Vince A Active Member

    Where is this heading??? While I realize why you question this, technically, all of you are correct . . . but some of you have left things out.

    I personally do not do any of my twenty-some different whips with any rock-step, but who cares? It's my interpretation of the moves(s). Joe is not competing, and if he were, I'd say let the judges make the call. Then he, you, us, would know who is right and who is wrong . . . if that's where this is headed???
  5. Guest

    Guest Guest

    This is getting very off topic. :)

  6. DanceMentor

    DanceMentor Administrator

    This is one of the reasons we have to lock threads sometimes.
    What do we need to do folks?
  7. Vince A

    Vince A Active Member

    I am there, however, I would like to wait a final retort from Joe (originator), since everyone seemed to question his info???
  8. d nice

    d nice New Member

    Nope. Some of the things said have been contradictions involving absolutes... Both statements can't be correct.

    Topical drift is natural for forum discussions. I've found it is best to just let them wonder around the topic. If they stray to far then you or I can always split it up and create a new thread. My post above hops right back onto the movie DKTR and the dancing in it. Which means it is perfectly topical. As long as things don't get personal (attacks character assassination etc.) we should just follow the flow of intenet discussion (not to disimilar to how conversations drift exploring related issues around a topic).

    I am a judge... but that has nothing to do with it. I'm not saying rocking a follow backwards prior to a swing out is wrong. I teach it as one of my variations, I'm just saying that rocking back is not a requirement and any living member of Whitey's Lindy hoppers will tell you the exact same thing.
  9. Vince A

    Vince A Active Member

    d nice,
    I don't think it wa drifting . . . I think it "drifted." I read about WCS, WCS, Savoy, Lindy, and I believe Charleston . . it's just confusing to follow.

    Speaking of follow, you say you do a variation of a whip with a rock back. Is it still a 4-count whip up to a point, and then you change the ending at 5 & 6, etc? I'm thinking of the followers next move and where the weight would have to be to do a rock back instead of a step in the opposite direction. I do not do Lindy, so I'm going off of WCS here.
  10. d nice

    d nice New Member

    Why don't we stick with the regular Harlem counting method since it is the one generally accepted world wide (literally, instructors in South Africa and Estonia, China and Singapore, Argentina and Finland all use this same method).

    The follower can rock back on the 1 2 of the swing out, her center is moving forward on two, but her first step forward is in fact on the triple step (3 & 4). The only difference between a rock on 1 2 or anything else is the distance that was achieved on the second triple step (which is a distance regulator for leveraged tension). If I am going to rock my follower back she needs to be close enough to allow that movement. If she is going to step forward then she needs to be far enough away that the leaders movement causes her step forward.

    Now we are off topic. If you are interested in anything else I'll happily answer any questions you have, to the best of my ability, in a different thread. If I don't have the answers I'll direct you to those who do.
  11. Black Sheep

    Black Sheep New Member

    WCS Whip

    What they teach out here called the 'Eight count Whip' is simp;ly the basic rhythm 'Triple Trip;le Rock Step with the lady being thrown out around the man's right shoulder instead of his left shoulder. It is the same eight steps taken to Six Quarter beats; it is not a 4 Quarter beat Whuip, and it is a walkaround even at 180 bpm, While the Savoy Whip even at a slow 120 bpm is a fast snappy move because it the lady travels a full extented circle around the man taking only five steps instead of the WCS eight steps.
    Black Sheep, your friendly instructor.
  12. d nice

    d nice New Member

    Who dances like that Joe? I dance in the LA area pretty often. I'll probably be at the Calfornia Balboa Championships, The Charleston Challenge etc. next month.

    I've never seen anyone dance this as a basic, or even a regular variation. Who is teaching this? What clubs is this being danced in?
  13. Swing Kitten

    Swing Kitten New Member

    Since it looks like you'll both be in LA... ... why not take a little time and meet each other and visually discuss Lindy? Demonstrate what you are meaning... but be sure you both bring your open minds :wink:

    Wouldn't it be funny if you two boys were essencially meaning the same thing but just had very different methods of communicating such? :D I think I would just about die laughing!!

    Or at the least you could agree to disagree and perhaps find a certain amount of base respect for each other that seems, at least from where I sit, to be lacking. Although I do enjoy your 'friendly bantering!'

    Only a suggestion... would it work out logistically for you two?

    What do ya' think?
  14. Black Sheep

    Black Sheep New Member

    never the twain will meet

    Swing Kitten,
    I read his description of what he suggests is the Flying Lindy, and it in no way rhythmically or mechanically resembles my rendition of what the Fl;Flying Lindy is. And I have offered to Email the complete breakdown for the Flying Lindy to anyone who Emails me the Word 'FLYING LINDY
    before September 1 st and he has not bothered to take the time to send me that Email. Do you think he really wants to know?
    Black Sheep, your friendly instructor <d.lanza@netzero.net>
  15. Swing Kitten

    Swing Kitten New Member

    Re: never the twain will meet

    exactly!! If the two descriptions matched up (or were only slightly off) then you two would obviously have no problems reconciling the issue via this forum. I'm guessing it's a difference in terminology all together... that you are, in fact, describing different dances that each of you have both learned as Flying Lindy (in this instance). Doesn't it sound like that's what happening? This is where the demonstration part would come in handy.

    :roll: well... Joe... I haven't sent you that e-mail either (complete side bar: did I ever mention how I love the whole 'don't let this exclusive opportunity pass you by! email me the magic words before it's too late' approach... that's very cute-- it's a lot more fun than just 'if you want to know, ask!' :D ) but I digress... what does that say about me? ... I was saddened to hear the tone of the second half of your response. I'm not sure if you ment it this way, but it came across to me that blame was being pushed over onto d nice. It sounded to me like you are pionting the finger which is most unbecoming of the gentleman I had somehow perceived you to be.

    Ya know, I find it very funny that I could easily imagine d nice asking the same about you!! Couldn't you? Cummon, you and I both know that you have not exactly been the poster child of open mindedness on this board :wink: You both have something to say and I think it is quite abmirable that neither one of you is willing to just 'roll over'... but I can't help but think there's a little more to it (call me female by making things a bit more complex than they readily appear). This seems to have become a battle of egos and now no one can win... and thus no one will learn. :( Could it be you two are a bit more alike than either one of you would care to admit?
  16. d nice

    d nice New Member

    Not likely. I like to share well researched information, up front, no strings attached, no hoops to jump through, and with no expectations that my word should be good enough reason to assume everything I say is correct.

    You'll notice I pretty always include references and resources that others can use to verify what I say.

    Our battles inevitably begin when I question the veracity of his statements, ask for some sort of evidence to verify his conclusions, or when I post my own evidence that contradicts his unsupported position.

    While we may both be strong willed and have a passion for the dance... I think the line stops there.

    Joe if you were really interested in sharing you'd simply post the info and not make people give out semi-private information that you would then use as implicit support and belief of your information.
  17. d nice

    d nice New Member

    An open mind does not mean believing something just because someone asserts that it is true. It does mean that when presented with facts, or logical reasoning that ones positions can be modified or out and out changed.
  18. Black Sheep

    Black Sheep New Member

    Send me the word, 'Flying Lindy'

    Swing Kitten'
    There is only one thing wrong with your assumptions. My purpose in writing these commentaries are not to communicate exclusively with one stranger who turns everything into a controversy. I know exactly what the Original Flying Lindy is. I lived in the middle of it for years; my first cousin Catherine and Tommy Parisi who lived one door away from me were constant contest winners and their Flying Lindy was classic. I have been teaching and analyzing dancing and tennis and have written instructional books on these subject for over fifty years.
    With due respect, what makes you think I would care to share my knowledge of the Flying Lindy with some individual who thinks it's a Hopping Skipping dance. And you say we seem to have the same concept but using different 'Terminology'. Read my lips, please!
    The reason I put my offer out in so 'CUTE' a way is for several reason:.
    1) When I put it out, I want to share it with as large a number of students and teachers at the same time so no individual has an advantage over other interested dancers and teachers.
    2) When a significant number of dancers get the same breakdown, then there is less chance of the Flying Lindy being modified to the point of confusion and corruption and eventually lost in the maze of various interpreters' renditions and therefore being disassembled for posterity;
    3) The Flying Lindy is structured along my Authentic Savoy Lindy as graphically described in my Magic Pill\, Teaching Method. A pre-requisite for understanding the Flying Lindy breakdown is the Magic Pill which all my Lindy moves are structured by.
    4) In order for any entity to survive in tact, be it the 'Dewey Decimal System' or the 'Queensbury' boxing rules, or the, Lanza Six Count Lindy, teaching Technique, there needs to be 'blueprint' for everyone to follow who is interested, And an identifiable title has to be attached to it for reference purposes.
    5) If someone else comes up with a different concept then it should be identifiable so as to avoid confusion with my concept.
    NOTE: Now I have received personal Emails calling me arrogant, self centered and a few other expletives for attaching my name to my uniquely different concepts. Why is this so strange that I should put my signature on my creations? Why do novelist put their names down as authors? Why do Rogers & Hart take credit for their music? Why do painters sign their names to on their canvases? Are these artists 'Arrogant? Conceited? Selfish? or being Cute? Why do we have copyright laws?
    I share more authentic and original information on dance and the dance history of the Hollywood 1950's than all the people you can mention. And I do it freely!
    And you equate me and my work with... whoever you want?
    I will extend my offer to anyone who sends me the CUTE word 'Flying Lindy' for another 30 days until October 1 st, because the response has been disappointing. If only Swing Kitten, who didn't bother to Email that magic word, and a hand full of others are the only ones interested, then that is not enough of a motivation for me to publicize the techniques and styling for the Flying Lindy.
    I have been through this situation with the Calypso in 1957, and by teaching it to a few other teachers, it ended up with every ones different interpretations that caused such a confusion that it died on the Vine.
    My next Creation was the Bossa Nova which I handled differently; I mailed out instructional booklets to all the listed Dance studios in the USA and Canada at the same mailing date. The Bossa Nova still is danced today all over the world, although not a popular ballroom dance, still it is danced with the same integrity I described in my booklets in 1962.
    Maybe you can understand now, why there is a method in my 'CUTE' offer.
    One last Question Swing Kitten: 'Why are both you and your friend asking me to share my knowledge of the Flying Lindy exclusively with you and your friend, but you won't mail me the word 'Flying Lindy?'
    I'll extend the deadline to October 1 st, since the response so far is too disappointing, for me to share; just send me the word, 'Flying Lindy' and it's free just like the Magic Pill was for gratis. D.LANZA@NETZERO.NET
    Black Sheep, your friendly instructor
  19. d nice

    d nice New Member

    Joe... follow my line of reasoning here...

    Making a plea to two people who posted most recently on this thread makes no sense.

    You are making this plea to all the others who read this thread, even if they don't post.

    Psoting your description here would reach all of them at the same point. More so than are likely to send an email in.

    Free and unfettered flow of information is a sign of someone who is concerned about knowledge.

    You did not create the Flying Lindy. There is no credit to assume for it.

    Something you may want to consider... Shag, Lindy and Jitterbug are all terms refering to more than a single dance form/style... while I was not aware that Flying Lindy was one we'll never know since you refuse to do anything more than attack my description.
  20. SDsalsaguy

    SDsalsaguy Administrator Staff Member

    Joe, et al, this is the DKTR thread -- NOT the Flying Lindy thread!

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