Tango Argentino > Feeling the Man's Steps?

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by Steve Pastor, Jan 14, 2011.

  1. newbie

    newbie Well-Known Member

    There is no such thing as VU style. And about leading with everything, Tete said that too. And with the belly as well, he added.
  2. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member


    Another of his quotes, "Language is a part of our organism and no less complicated than it."
  3. newbie

    newbie Well-Known Member

    "A philosopher who is not taking part in discussions is like a boxer who never goes into the ring. "

    Better suited for this forum.
  4. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    Unfortunately there is now!
    Interesting you should say that. I was once taught to lead the
    little back crosses (what some people call milonguero ochos)
    with the stomach and it totally put me off the teachers.

    Using the stomach gets around the problem of your partner having
    no body tone or "core" but as I don't have a "Tete Tummy" I don't
    find it pleasant and nor do those regular partners who have enough
    tone and sensitivity to feel the lead from the chest.

    Each to their own as usual (or YMMV for across the pond).
  5. chanchan

    chanchan Member

    I must say that this time I totally agree with you. The three points that you mentioned are exactly what I expect from a follower.
    The lead comes always from the center, even when the dancers appear to work in opposition, beacuse it is not a real opposition: it is actually a rotation.
  6. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Have you ever met a philosopher who really took part in a discussion? (Don´t mix up discussion with discours) - And have you ever met a boxer who never went into the ring?

    That doesn´t insult me. I actually took some privates with Chiche Nuñez but I´m not really into it.
  7. Mario7

    Mario7 Member

    Yes that's it, as i see it in talking about the man's lead, the Milonguero old guard seem to lift the free leg by jerking it upwards.... then when they shoot it down, the woman has no doubt what, where and when the action occurs... Ricardo Vidort..and Ruben Har.....sp? can be seen doing this..it accents the music, too.:friend:
  8. ant

    ant Member

    As a follower you might.

    Only you are talking about flailing legs


    Not always but sometimes I think it does

    Sometimes this is a good lead for the follower to affect a weight transfer but just as often not.

    Whatever rings your bell

    I assume you are talking about his body and if this is so I agree.

    I agree that is normally a signal for a follower to follow but not always
    Sometimes but quite often not the case

    If you feel that is the intention yes but your step/or not taking a step is often led without reference to the leader taking/or not taking a the step.

    Agreed if that is how the follower reads it.

    Sometimes. I would suggest to you that a follower often effects a weight transfer without the leader doing a weight transfer and vice verse.

    It quite often does.

    Generally yes

    It suppsoe it can be done that way but that is not what I had in mind.

    Where did I mention arms.

    What I am saying is that I place my foot the follower feels where my foot is placed once I feel that she has accepted that as a lead I will move my foot further along and we end up offset. Hence as a follower you are conscious of where my original foot placement was and following in relation to that position

    As I have said not always the case. For instance if I feel that the follower I am dancing with follows my read of the music that is suffient. If the follower is reading my intention from my connection with the floor that is suffient. If I then have to use body leads I will. If I need a stronger frame to lead I will. In other words I believe in leading using the least invasive method that the follower can read.
    I have looked through this thread and I cannot see that I have made one reference to using the arms. Beyiond saying, in fact the whole point of my posts has been the very opposite, it is probably best that I do not expand on this point you have raised about the arms further.
    As I have said not always and not preferably. I would rather we read read the music together or you felt my connection to the floor. This is by far the most pleasurable way of dancing if I have a good connection with the follower through the music and floor and we are just walking with the music.
  9. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Ok, so we disagree. We'll just have to agree on that point, if nothing else.

    I have made my point the best I am able. I have nothing more to add.

    (Aside: God almighty, I've come to hate this bloody forum. Why did I come back and try to get involved? Good lord. Enough of this.)
  10. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    I myself follow the Salvador Dali school of leading* where he advocates that simultaneous orgasm can be acheived by two lovers fully clothed, at a distance, merely by looking into each others eyes; cabaceo, schmabaceo! by the time the follower has met me on the floor she knows exactly what I'm going to do for the next 2 minutes and forty seconds...


    *from his book Hidden Lives
  11. pygmalion

    pygmalion Well-Known Member

    I am intrigued by this (but not intrigued enough to go back and read a couple pages lol)

    Hang in there P. I've seen you contribute so much valuable insight and support to others in the AT forum.

    Hang in there.

    AT is one of those disciplines. People are passionate about what they believe. Eh. It makes for interesting conversations, where interesting = sometimes annoying.

    Walk away and come back when you're ready.

    Meanwhile, please go over to the recipes thread and teach me how to make pancakes. :lol:
  12. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    "Lets sing another song boys this one has grown old and bitter."
  13. ant

    ant Member

    it sounds very much like two people dancing together in a very pleasurable way.
    This seems to be a contradiction to what you said above.

    With regard to the impulse you are referring to, where is this impluse coming from and what form does it take?

    I need to know your answer above before I can comment on this.

    I am not sure about this. I beleive that directionality can be conveyed in the relationship of the leaders weight and where in his foot this goes. Whereas in walking the direction is already set and as a leader I have different priorities in what I want to convey.

    This is a truism but it is not neccessarily giving an accurate picture of everything that is being felt. For instance the music and the lack of foot movement in the leaders body and do you include the connection with the floor of the free leg in this.
    I never mentioned sight. You will need to elaborate further what you mean by pushing. I would suggest your connection in the floor often manifests as a push from it and the quality of that push conveys a number of different things which I would categorise as signal transduction (I am assuming this means inducing meaning from the non verbal and non visual messaging passing between dance partners. Are you suggesting signal transduction only comes through the chest? If so I believe this is rather limiting

    But what is the signal that the follower is inducing from. The push from the floor, a movement from the chest or the horizontal movement of the leader. I would suggest that all three come into play but the more you can use the first and the less you use the second and even more the third as a method of leading the better in my opinion. But even better still just allow the music to move you both.
  14. ant

    ant Member

    If I could achieve this as well as you........
  15. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    And of course, it is the leader's responsibility to place his "problem foot" so that all that occurs naturally as she executes her steps. I've had leaders place the foot for a Parada either in a bad place or (more likely) at the wrong time so that I trip over it rather than have it stop me. If the follower is having to find his foot to make the contact in a Parada, then something is wrong. I think he is supposed to find her's.
  16. ant

    ant Member

  17. Mario7

    Mario7 Member

  18. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    In this respect we´ve only got one
  19. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Yes, this is how I think of it as well.

    You are describing several things that happen in sequence, not a single move (as clearly you know by the way you described it)

    The leader DOES indicate with a body lead the direction he wants the follower to go. AFTER she starts heading in that direction, he changes his own direction thus achieving a result of the two of them going opposite of each other (and to an observer, it probably looks simultaneous). But it is not simultaneous. It is (as you describe) TWO separate movements by the leader... one is the lead for her, the other is his own movement.

    The follower's job is to stay with him unless he prevents it. In the case I think you are describing, he has effectively prevented her from staying with him through the timing of his switch. It comes too late for her to reverse her intention/ momentum. If timing isn't enough on it's own (and it often isn't except with advanced leaders) he will probably use his arms, not to lead the move per se (because she is already moving as he wishes) but to continue her moving that way by preventing her from changing. And, as you say, allowing his arms to continue with her in the direction he already indicated for her.

    This type of move works best, and is most comfortable for the follower, when she gets the clear lead from his body first. Too often the leader skips that part and uses only his arms to push her one way while he sends himself the other way. That's not so great.

    So while someone can explain the correct method as "leading with his arms", I personally would make a distinction between using his arms to prevent or follow her movement (that he has already indicated) vs using his arms to initialize or propel her movement.

    Obviously, there are times when this first type of use of the arms is required. (I'm thinking especially of those back sacadas where the guy rotates and turns his back to the follower to reach behind him for a sacada coming to her front. If she weren't prevented from following his chest, she wouldn't be in the right place.)

    IMO, it is best to bring up these uses of the arms specifically in context rather than ever speak of leading with the arms. Far too often, beginners and even intermediate leaders (and leaders who have been doing tango for years but who still make fundamental mistakes) overuse their arms and try to lead or steer with the arms when it isn't necessary. For that reason, I usually say general things like "you don't need your arms to lead" or "You shouldn't lead with your arms". MOST of the time, it's true. The exceptions are rather specific instances, not general practice.
  20. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    I'm not at all clear on how the follower knows where to go this way? Are you saying that you and she both hear (for instance) a molinete (or some other move) in the music, so she does that without you specifically leading it?

    I'm also wondering how much following you've done yourself? You have very strong opinions on how followers should be thinking about the relationship to the leader, but most of the followers who have responded on this thread do not agree with what you are saying. Are these conclusions you've come to through your own experience of following? (forgive me if you are primarily a follower... I sometimes get posters mixed up) Or are you trying to apply how you as a leader relate to your role and technique to the follower's viewpoint of the leader?

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