Swing Discussion Boards > Forceful Lead???

Discussion in 'Swing Discussion Boards' started by Vince A, Jul 7, 2006.

  1. Vince A

    Vince A Active Member

    Ditto!
    Yup.
    Absolutely.
    Without a doubt.
    Anytime.

    What was your lesson?
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. chandra

    chandra New Member

    Ahem *pulls out note book* ;)

    Ive been working alot on connection. Maintaining a light but very connected connection whilst following sudden direction changes and speed changes. And stretchyness, and pulse, and incorprating it all into smooth prettyness!
     
    1 person likes this.
  3. Vince A

    Vince A Active Member

    Yup . . . that'sabout what I've been working . . .

    A light connection at the fingertips only . . . all movement from my center. Making sure the simple things, like in underarm turns, I stay light and don't cut any steps too short . . . staying rounded.

    Putting energy into my steps.

    Making sure my feet are turned out . . . this would come naturally if thighs are engaged. Make leg movements from inside seam of my pants, opening up my hips.

    I used to think WCS was fun . . .
     
    2 people like this.
  4. chandra

    chandra New Member

    haha, yah!

    How is Dallas Dance looking?
     
  5. VRRDA

    VRRDA New Member

    [FONT=Times New (W1)]The simple explanation is that you try to not give your partner anywhere else to go. Your other hand and your body position can guide her and remove her options.[/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New (W1)] [/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New (W1)]Use a firm but light grip with an elastic, but not soggy, bent elbow. [/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New (W1)] [/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New (W1)]Try not to grab and do not be concentrating so much that you crush her fingers.[/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New (W1)] [/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New (W1)]If you are going into a complicated move that has a name tell her what it will be first.[/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New (W1)] [/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New (W1)]Dance with lots of partners.[/FONT]
     
  6. Dancelf

    Dancelf Member

    Right. Because when you tell partner that you are about to lead a "chiropractor", she knows exactly what she should do....

    Edit: Wow, did quoting the wrong part of the message really make a mess of the meaning. Now corrected, with apologies to VRRDA. Of course, I may still come across as being intolerant, unforgiving, and unsupportive, but at least now people will be drawing that conclusion for the right reason
     
  7. VRRDA

    VRRDA New Member

    [FONT=Times New (W1)]Wow, Dancelf! How does that move go?[/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New (W1)] [/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New (W1)]You really have two choices, either be tolerant, forgiving and supportive of us flawed and vulnerable males or have no blokes to dance with.[/FONT]
     
  8. delamusica

    delamusica Active Member

    Here's my answer -

    Leading does not come from the arms - the trick is to keep your arms from getting in the way. The best leader I know explained it like this - he said he thought about using his center to tell me where to go, and his arms to show me how to get there.

    A great excercise one teacher had me and my partner do (and we tried this for the basics in standard, latin, and swing), was for us to dance about four feet away from each other and still use lead and following, arms behind our backs. After we did that for awhile, we would move closer, and each put our right hand on the other person's sternum, left hand behind our backs. We would dance for awhile that way. Then, after doing both of those, we would go back into regular dance position. The connection by that point was amazing.

    Obviously you can't be doing an underarm turn or anything - but it's a great excercise for learning to move from your center (lead) and respond to your partner's center with your own center (follower).
     
  9. leftfeetnyc

    leftfeetnyc New Member

    Follows are very tolerant. Ever move has a different name based on who is teaching it and what part of the country it comes from.

    Women HATE to have a guy verbally tell her what move you're about to do. It screams "I don't trust you or think you're good enough to follow on your own without verbal commands" even if that's not the way you intend it. Guys who do this find themselves being turned down more and more.
     
  10. leftfeetnyc

    leftfeetnyc New Member

    Both leading and following come from the body. If you think of dance like a car, the steering wheel doesn't actually drive the car, it's movement just give direction.

    Arms are the steering wheel, they indicated underarm turn, spins, side pass whip. The actual driving -- what turns the car is the axel. Your body is the axel that moves the wheels (feet) and changes direction.

    Those excercises you're doing are really good.
     
  11. delamusica

    delamusica Active Member

    I've also had guys who would lead with one hand and use the other to point in the direction they wanted me to go - leads, please NEVER do this! It's obnoxious!!
     
  12. VRRDA

    VRRDA New Member

    [FONT=Times New (W1)]As a result of learning to dance at a school that emphasised the technical side of Rock’n’Roll we know around 90 named moves.[/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New (W1)] [/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New (W1)]The concessus among women Rock’n’Roll dancers in my dance sphere is that they would prefer to be asked whether they would like to attempt a particular complicated move that does not have a unique lead to introduce it.[/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New (W1)] [/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New (W1)]When dancing with women from outside of this group typically the on-floor conversation, when my mouth can get close to her ear, is, [/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New (W1)]“Want to try the Chiropractor?” [/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New (W1)]“How does that go?”[/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New (W1)]I explain, she tells me they call it the Physiotherapist. We do it.[/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New (W1)] [/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New (W1)]In Victoria a “traditional” move is Geoff Kicks. It has a slight variation depending on where you come from. My partners prefer to be told “Geoff Kicks, with a back step” over being kicked in the ankles.[/FONT]
     
  13. Dancelf

    Dancelf Member

    Well, you dance on the opposite side of the planet from where I normally do and not doing the same dance, so I'm not going to presume that things there are the same as things here.

    But speaking for myself, I don't attempt a particular complicated move that does not have a unique lead to introduce it with my social partners under normal circumstances.

    Seriously, if you've got 90 named moves, why choose one that you can't lead? Who are you trying to impress, and why do you think that's the way to impress them?



    Carolina Shag, I've been led to believe, includes audibles; though I understand that these are primarily for footwork and styling when doing choreography on the fly, rather than for moves. But my experiences in Shag have been limited to watching it occassionally, so I may be completely off base here. Standard Westie dislaimer applies....



    leftfeetnyc describes the analogy most commonly used in the westie circles I've run in. For myself, I describe it slightly differently. The body (center/leg) leads location (and therefore velocity/acceleration/changes in direction); the arms lead rotation.

    Breaking things down this way often makes troubleshooting leads easier ("Why doesn't it work when she does this? Oh, she's too far away for my arm to indicate the rotation, I'm supposed to have her here first.")
     
  14. VRRDA

    VRRDA New Member

    [FONT=Times New (W1)]Dancelf, you might need to find some different people to dance with. For us it is about fun, interaction, the music and the pleasure of skill development. [/FONT]

    [FONT=Times New (W1)]Let me know next time you are coming to Australia and we will make you welcome. Melbourne is 90 minutes away from the popular Phillip Island Penguin Parade.[/FONT]

    [FONT=Times New (W1)](PS: We do a lot of Swing and it works the same: lead into the obvious moves, agree on the complicated ones.)[/FONT]
     
  15. Dancelf

    Dancelf Member

    I'll do that. I had occurred to me that I'm 1/3 of the way around the world already, and that I might keep going that way rather than turning around to go home. If I can get the company to pick up the tab on airfair....
     
  16. leftfeetnyc

    leftfeetnyc New Member


    Interesting...I've danced with people doing some very complicated moves...people I've never danced with before and had absolutely no problem following them....without verbal leads.

    Yes dance is about fun, but there's no need to say each move before you do it. Natural lead/follow allows for much more room for interpertation and improvisation. Why would you want to spend half your dance whispering to compare the name of moves so you can do them?
     
  17. Vince A

    Vince A Active Member

    Why, doesn't "1, do a half whip, reverse your position to arms twists that will change your direction in the slot to an outside turn directing you to a left shoulder back forward spin while I catch you mid-back with my fingertips placing you into a dip and then I thrust upwards indicating a slide out for you then catching you as you unwind thus sending you back down to your end of the slot &8" work for you?
     
  18. leftfeetnyc

    leftfeetnyc New Member

    I love it when you whisper sweet nothings in my ear....



    On a serious note, verbal leads remove the dancing completely. Verbal leads are more like Simon Says than dance. If you want to dance, dance...that means leading..non verbally. If you can't lead it or learn to lead a move without a verbal command than don't do the move. There is no social move that cannot be lead physically -- i.e. no verbal lead necessary.

    If the move is dangerous and not fully leadable without verbal command than it should be regulated to choreographed routines as they are not appropriate to the crowded social floor with it's multi-levels of skill and various interpertations.
     
  19. Vince A

    Vince A Active Member

    I thought that would get you in the mood, er, uh, for some serious dancing, that is . . .


    I should talk to you with my center . . . I agree with what you said!!!
     
  20. VRRDA

    VRRDA New Member

    [FONT=Times New (W1)]Uh huh! [/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New (W1)] [/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New (W1)]Mate I am so impressed that you can lead into the Rock’n’Roll move that I know as “J&L” and not have the woman unsure whether it might be the move that starts the same way. [/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New (W1)] [/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New (W1)]Of course we can and do dance all night with the only leads being through hand positions and body placement but the ladies I dance with are happy to do the more technical moves and for me to say long, complicated messages like “Casa.” [/FONT]
     

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