Tango Argentino > How many adornos do you need?

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by larrynla, May 10, 2009.

  1. Me

    Me New Member

    I understand now, but I think it would help in the future if you quote the point you disagree with, and then state the why. We're used to quoting each other and saying "I disagree with X, and I disagree because X". When we're up to a high page count (what is this, fifteen pages?) we try to quote one another specifically, because it can become extremely confusing if we speak in general terms. Oftentimes the topic meanders, and different users make contributions to different topics. I'm not picking on you by calling you "new", but you are relatively new to the boards here, and this method can take some getting used to, but it has proven to work really well. I understand now that you did not mean it, but earlier your post was interpreted as "dissing" the entire board.
     
  2. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    Blimey... :rolleyes:

    Cor, that sounds good. I'll have to give it a try sometime... :D
     
  3. Gssh

    Gssh Well-Known Member


    Ok, i am bristeling a little bit right now - mainly because in this thread i have been a big advocate of standing flat footed and shuffling - so i feel this might be aimed at me. The atmosphere on this board has become a bit chilly the last few weeks, and i am trying not to get too engaged in this, but i find your position a bit disingenous - your suggestion for improving the leading of a complex pattern is to switch to an easier to lead pattern, and at the same time you obliquely bash other people for their perceived lack of leading ability. Now i don't claim any extraordinary insight into tango - i am not a teacher, i have started only relatively recently, and as anybody who has danced with me knows that my reach far exceeds my grasp, and my teachers are not famous, and my footwork is neither exacting nor elegant, still, i try to engage ideas, and not people.

    I think the pattern you suggested is a very elegant solution of the problems in dancing a beautiful pattern based on the moulinette, but this solution is based on finding the most natural rhythm and geometry. Especially the shortened backstep is just exploiting bad technique - just because it is difficult to lead a long and correctly placed backstep does not mean that simply avoiding it is a sign of superior leading ability.

    The important aspects of the moulinette (from the leaders perspective, watching the follower, going to the left, the right is just a mirror) is that there are two basic dimensions:

    1) What foot is forward (on the circle around the leader)? The sidestep transitions from left foot forward to the right foot forward. The frontstep can transition from the right foot forward to the left foot forward, from the left foot forward to the right foot forward, and using a barrida or colgada into a cross it will maintain the footing, the backstep is the same as the front step

    2) Is the follower open or closed? In my definiton a follower is open when entering the follower with a saccada will lead to natural continuation of the movement, while the follower is closed when enterning the follower with a saccada will interrupt the movement, and require her to stop and collect after doing something boleoish - or it will require the leader open her a way out.
    Open: Sidestep (i.e. right foot forward), frontstep with left foot forward, backstep with right foot forward
    Closed: frontstep with right foot forward, backstep with left foot forward

    Together 1 and 2 cover everything needed to know for exiting and entering the moulinette.

    If due to my leading/the followers technique different positions on these two dimensions are not exactly exchangable i have robbed myself of the ability to lead everything. I of course know that it is way easier to do e.g. a back-saccada into the sidestep than into the frontstep, but for maximum freedom i have to be able to do all of them, and unless i set up something specifically my moulinette should allow me to change my mind any time about when and how i am going to exit it.

    Again, i am grateful that we now have now an advanced tango dancer here, and the suggested pattern is certainly helpful even for people who like shuffling like me, but what about some insight on how to keep her backstep in this pattern long, if i e.g. wanted to enter into a back saccada from there? It would be a closed position, so she would boleo herself, and i could maybe use that to lead her into a forward step, and then just reverse her again and lead her into a cross and walk her out of there , somethink like a ocho cortado. I think that could feel nice - though it requires a long backstep instead of an milonguero cross over.

    Gssh
     
  4. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    Yay! That's me!

    :D

    Seriously, I've spent several years trying to lead clearly. That was my first priority. It's only now that I'm starting to care what my feet do, and what my footwork looks like - up until recently, I simply haven't cared. My footwork in the giro is absolutely mostly shuffling-around.

    But yet, somehow, despite this horrible deficiency, I've still managed to find women to dance with. I know I'm not gorgeous - perhaps I'm just extremely lucky?
     
  5. Gssh

    Gssh Well-Known Member

    For a constructive discussion maybe you point out the comments that you feel are symptoms of misunderstanding/lacking correct leading? That way the men who are not as skilled at leading can profit from your expertise. A nice format would be something like:

    QUOTE

    I think this would be better approached this way .... better technique...., because .....reasons...


    A format of:

    Some people i am not naming are bad leaders. I know better because ....namedrop...


    might be misunderstood as not being an attempt to share knowledge, but instead might be seen as an attempt to do deniable bullying of the "i never said YOU were a bad leader" kind.

    This is a written medium, and we can all claim to be whoever we want to be, and what our skill level is like, and who we were taught by, heck, there is not even a guarantee that i have ever danced tango in my life.

    I try to to share my ideas here, and make my rational for these ideas clear, this is like a practica.

    Gssh
     
  6. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    I'll take you at your word that no offense was intended (but I'll add, that's not how it came across when you first posted it). To elaborate further, a few of your posts have appeared to imply that "others" who had a different opinion from you, didn't understand the point you are making. You seem to have not considered the possibility that most (if not everyone here) understand it, but we might not all agree with it. You also don't seem to understand that by communicating in this manner, it invites a more argumentative style of "debate". Now while that doesn't scare me in the least, that hasn't been the atmosphere on this forum.

    IMO, there are many different philosophies on how things in Tango are supposed to be done. As part of my study of this art, I've tried to understand (as best as I'm capable) what some of those different philosophies are, rather than assuming that the first one I've been taught is the only "truth".
     
  7. Heather2007

    Heather2007 New Member

    That's because AT is like the Houses of Parliament - packed with differing opinions with a large sprinkling of the Devil's ego. :raisebro:

    (Englanders: the latest MP to stand down after wrongfully claiming expenses on his country home stated "...the public are only jealous because my house looks like Balmoral". Yep. He said that. Can you imagine such a person in a milonga?)
     
  8. Heather2007

    Heather2007 New Member

    And of course a "bad" leader can also be to do with the attitude not just their footwork n'est pas?
     
  9. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    to Gssh: When I was being taught by Rodlopho (El Chino) he drilled us for three weeks in the giro until we knew exactly where the woman's feet and weight were at any moment; by feel and we could find her feet with our own. Then he drilled us to being able to pivot ahead of the woman's turn so you are in the right position for a back (or other) sacada and getting the dissocation to work. Positioning betwen you was key and he said if it wasnt right you abort the move.

    Most of the time any intrusion type step betwen the followers legs relies on knowing how she will step. Some ladies are prone to do tiny steps; others will do a double time step following the back ocho especially if dancing vals.

    IMO the forward-forward step isnt necessary to acheive a good turn but if you are dancing milonguero style this debate isnt relevant anyway
    I hope this helps.
    BTM
     
  10. bastet

    bastet Active Member


    Huh? I'm confused...You can do giros in close embrace (I mean without breaking the embrace). They have a couple of adaptations in terms of technique and in the use of sacadas only on the follows open step, and they even work with the leader just shuffling (or paddling as Homer would call it) in place ;) but they are definitely doable.
     
  11. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    if you have abody to body connection sy at the level of the solar plexus and maybe a bit lower there is simpli a limit to how far the woman can twist her torso; so the giro footwork becomes a cross behind; how ladies of a certain age and stoutness or stiff of hip dance tango; quite respectable way to do it.
     
  12. bastet

    bastet Active Member

    yes- this is one of the adaptations I make (but not because I can't dissociate, but because he generally isnt leading me to).
     
  13. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    Yes, Yes, Yes! by feel!
    Did he by any chance instruct the women on what they could do to facilitate that?
     
  14. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    yes he did
     
  15. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    So, do you think you could explain in a paragraph or two exactly what was covered in that three week class, as well as how to do it?

    :raisebro:
     
  16. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    1. Being able to stop the woman in any postion
    a) collected
    b) leg out but weight on back leg
    c) equal weighted
    d) as b but on front leg
    2. Leadind controlled throughout the pivots
    ie so you connect well and she's pointing the way you want.
    3. Finding her feet in the middle of any step with your feet.
    4. Woman maintaining distance throughout giro
    5. Exercise: to strenghthen calf muscles to get mans pivot starting in leg action
    (like stubbing out a cigarette with your toe but with weight on the leg - or doing the twist
    )
    6. Turning with the chest (leader) then turning the hips to get ahead of the woman
    7. elongated box step with turns (I'm too tired to describe this)
     
  17. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    One teacher I had a lesson with described a similar exercise, but he called it "squish the bug." (There was also his "kick the boyfriend" exercise.) Heh.
     
  18. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    This I would expect from any teacher.
    Any recollection of what he told the women, though, about how they could make it easier for the man to feel where their weight/feet is/are?
     
  19. Angel HI

    Angel HI Well-Known Member

    Anxious for BTM's reply, and perhaps I am just anal about this, but I believe much of it has already been answered.........

    • 1. Being able to stop the woman in any postion
      a) collected
      b) leg out but weight on back leg
      c) equal weighted
      d) as b but on front leg
      2. Leadind controlled throughout the pivots
      ie so you connect well and she's pointing the way you want.
      3. Finding her feet in the middle of any step with your feet.
      4. Woman maintaining distance throughout giro
      5. Exercise: to strenghthen calf muscles to get mans pivot starting in leg action
      (like stubbing out a cigarette with your toe but with weight on the leg - or doing the twist
      )
      6. Turning with the chest (leader) then turning the hips to get ahead of the woman
      7. elongated box step with turns (I'm too tired to describe this)
     
  20. Angel HI

    Angel HI Well-Known Member

    Also, "Thanks guys...and ladies...for helping to keep the AT boards some of the most pleasant on the forum.
     

Share This Page